Few questions on 13" brake upgrade installation

[David Neibert]

I've finally got all the parts needed to upgrade the brakes on my 93 SC. I'll be installing Cobra calipers, 13" KVR rotors, Cobra banjo bolts and stainless hoses up front. For the rear I'm replacing the rotors with stock size KVRs that match the fronts, replacing the stock lines with stainless and repainting the calipers red to match the fronts using brush on caliper paint.

Just have a few questions.

Should I wait till the last thing to paint the rear calipers and do it after they are mounted and bled so I don't get them messed up during the install or should I remove them and paint them a couple days in advance of doing the new lines and rotors ? How difficult is it to remove the parking brake cables ?

Are there any special procedures to follow when bleeding the brakes after installing all the new stuff ? I thought I read someone saying that the rears should be done first. Should the bleeding be done with the key off or does the ABS pump need to be on ? I'm planning to buy enough DOT 3 brake fluid to completely flush out all or most of the existing fluid. I'll have someone doing the pump and hold the pedal down thing while bleeding each caliper and watch to make sure I don't run the brake fluid reservoir too low on fluid.

I've got one of those hand operated vacuum pumps for bleeding the brakes without someone pumping the pedal, but that looks like it might be a very slow process.

Any tips, do's and don'ts or insights from someone who has already done it, would be appreciated.

David

[95_XR7]

If you're just using brush on paint, I wouldn't even worry about removing the calipers. I'd go ahead and paint them a few days in advance, and make sure to get a nice amount of paint on there.

As for bleeding the brakes, ASLONG as you don't let the reservoir get empty just bleed in an x pattern.
1) rear pass side
2) rear driver
3) front pass
4) front driver

You also don't need the ABS pump to be on. I never have and I have had no problems at all. This was after installing new front calipers, lines, etc on the front of my Cougar.

As far as the pumps, noone on TCCoA has had much luck with them. I wouldn't even bother.

[David Neibert]

One of the problems I'm facing is the need to complete this upgrade in one day because of not having the space to store the car up on jackstands and still have enough room to work on all four wheels and get all 3 cars parked inside.

I've got a 3 car garage, but the single bay were I usually do all the repair work isn't really wide enough to work on both sides of the car comfortably, so I'm planning to work in the center of the 2 bay portion and give Kathy's Charger the boot. Since we are currently in a weather pattern of daily afternoon and overnight thunder storms (some producing hail), I don't want to leave her car outside anymore than absolutely needed and there's no way my 91 is going to sit outside overnight.

I've even considered buying new rear calipers just so I can pre-paint them to expidite the install process.

David

[Duffy Floyd]

David,

I would do the passenger side rear then driver's side rear, then front passenger side , then front driver's side for "procedure". I would also do it with the key on like the Shop Manual says.

Also suggest getting some ATE Blue Super Racing Brake Fluid (DOT 4) or their Typ 200 (which is amber but the same stuff). Tire Rack sells the blue for $12 a liter...you need 1.5 liters probably so get two.

[rzimmerl]

I'd say its doable in a days work if you have the calipers painted ahead of time, and have the needed parts ready to go. It took me a about 6-8 hours to swap spindles, hubs, sway bar links, grind to fit and install my front PBR calipers, install all 4 braided lines, and flush the entire system all by myself on my '90. I did have one hand tool I recommend is an air powered brake bleeder. I got one at harbor freight, took no time at all to bleed the fronts. The back bled real easy since the rears are bled just by turning on the ABS motor and pushing the brake pedal. I am not sure how the rears bleed on the later models.

[David Neibert]

Fortunately I won't need to change spindles or hubs on this car, but I will have to do all that stuff to upgrade the 91.

David

[TbirdSCFan]

I would also do it with the key on like the Shop Manual says. Yup. This is necessary to bleed the rear brakes if you have the Teves II ABS brake system. Hoever, it is not needed for the front brakes.

[Micahdogg]

I would do the install, go out and test them....then do the painting later after you verify the brakes are working fine. You can't get crossed up that way.

[David Neibert]

Yup. This is necessary to bleed the rear brakes if you have the Teves II ABS brake system. Hoever, it is not needed for the front brakes.

I've got whatever system comes stock in a 93 SC...it's the newer style with small fluid reseviour. Is that Teves II ABS ?

David

[David Neibert]

I would do the install, go out and test them....then do the painting later after you verify the brakes are working fine. You can't get crossed up that way.

That would certianly make things easier and would eliminate any chance of me trashing the paint job up during the install.

David

[Duffy Floyd]

93 SC's had the Teves Mark IV system. I would still follow the same bleed sequence (furthest to nearest to master cylinder). No need to have the key on during the bleed but make very sure you don't partially drain the system (keep reservoir filled during bleed ops) or you need a special tool to get the ABS Pump reprimed.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Besides what everyone said pay close attention to the rear caliper mods. Do all of the grinding you need to do. Make sure fitment is aok..Then go through the bleeding procedure...Then paint. I painted mine with cables still attached and they came out very nice

[racecougar]

I know I already told you David, but I figure I'd post a little tip up for anyone else messing with the brakes. When you bleed the brakes, slip a 2' length of clear aquarium-style tubing over the bleeder and run the other end into a catch container. It eliminates the mess, and it makes it very easy to see if you've removed all of the air from the lines (the air bubbles are very easy to see traveling in the clear tubing).

I've always bled the 93+ ABS system with the key off, following the normal pattern, without any issues. I do my best to steer clear of the 89-92 ABS system.

-Rod

[David Neibert]

Good info..thanks to all who contributed.

David

[David Neibert]

Are the brake line fittings metric or standard ?

David

[Pablo94SC]

Metric. I believe the bleed screws are 10mm on the rear and 11mm on the front PBR/Cobra brakes (might have that reversed). I believe the lines are 14mm compression/flared fittings. Best to use those instead of a regular wrench on all brake parts.

[David Neibert]

Metric. I believe the bleed screws are 10mm on the rear and 11mm on the front PBR/Cobra brakes (might have that reversed). I believe the lines are 14mm compression/flared fittings. Best to use those instead of a regular wrench on all brake parts.

Thanks Paul

David

[Pablo94SC]

No problem. I just bled my brakes today and my stock rear calipers had 11mm bleed screws and my front PBRs had 10mm. Also discovered that my front DS hose might be collapsing, so time to replace the hoses. LOL

[David Neibert]

Installed the new brakes yesterday. Didn't install the stainless lines or paint the rear calipers (stupid paint kit didn't even come with a brush). The install was pretty straight forward and everything bolted up as expected and the only rework required was grinding the passenger side banjo block to fit the cobra caliper. Rear calipers are still a pain in the azz to get the piston compressed, but the job was much easier using a special tool that Rod loaned me (thanks Rod). Bleeding them was easy since all I had to mess with, were the fronts.

They look nice but I only drove it enough to season the rotors (per KVR instructions) then parked it. I plan to take it for a drive later today and see how they feel compared to the stock brakes they replaced.

http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/IM003585.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/IM003586.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/IM003588.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/IM003590.jpg


David

[Kurt K]

Sounds good David. Isn't it too hot to drive your car today :p

[racecougar]

They look really good, David. I'm sure they stop the car much better, too.

-Rod

[Kurt K]

Oh sure, snuck the pictures in on me....yeah, they look good.

[Toms-SC]

Looks good team David. Let us know how the brake line install goes.

[David Neibert]

Looks good team David. Let us know how the brake line install goes.

Sure...I just don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Looks nice Dave.

[David Neibert]

Looks nice Dave.

Thanks....next project is to install the 14" spal pusher fan to try and get more air into the radiator. Can't get the car to run cooler than 210-215 degrees when the outside temps are above 80 degrees :mad:

It still feels just as strong and I'm not hearing any detonation, but I just don't like it being any hotter than 190-195. If the fan doesn't help I'll be adding some louvered panels to the hood.

David

[Mikessupercoupe]

Hello David

They look real nice. Needed upgrade with all that power. Did you have to do any grinding to the spindle at all? Looking at my blue 94, it seems that I need to grind the spindle a little as the caliper is touching it just a little.

Mike

[David Neibert]

Hello David

They look real nice. Needed upgrade with all that power. Did you have to do any grinding to the spindle at all? Looking at my blue 94, it seems that I need to grind the spindle a little as the caliper is touching it just a little.

Mike

Mike,

No...grinding needed on the spindle for brake clearance, but I did do a little grinding on it for wheel clearance back when I first bought the car. The inner edge of the 17" x 9" cobra rs was slightly rubbing against the upper portion of the spindle.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

It still feels just as strong and I'm not hearing any detonation, but I just don't like it being any hotter than 190-195. If the fan doesn't help I'll be adding some louvered panels to the hood.


Have you thought about the Evans coolant? It may nto make your temps go down but its great at reducing chances of detonation at any temperature...And being lowe pressure less strain on yer system overall

[mywhite89]

Looks good David. Where did you buy your parts? I need to do that upgrade one of these days also.

Chris

[351cat]

70/30 water to coolant and Watter Wetter worked wonders for me. Plain Distilled Water (and water wetter) works best, but most people wont use plain water...

[David Neibert]

Looks good David. Where did you buy your parts? I need to do that upgrade one of these days also.

Chris

Chris,

I got the calipers from buyfordracing.com , the rotors from KVR and the brake lines from Classic Tube.

David

[David Neibert]

70/30 water to coolant and Watter Wetter worked wonders for me. Plain Distilled Water (and water wetter) works best, but most people wont use plain water...

Are you saying that you ran hotter before and were able to get it to run cooler by using water wetter and distilled water ?

I'm currently using the biggest griffin aluminum radiator made for an MN12 and a mrk 8 fan with stand alone fan wiring and controls. I'm also using a stock replacement 5.0 HO t-bird waterpump with stock diameter pulley and a 180 thermostat, with about a 70/30 mix of tap water and antifreeze.

David

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

distilled water and water wetter will work better then tap water and antifreeze...The water wetter allows the water to wet better..Antifreeze isnt the way to go for max cooling ever...But water freezes

[Mikessupercoupe]

:cool:Mike,

No...grinding needed on the spindle for brake clearance, but I did do a little grinding on it for wheel clearance back when I first bought the car. The inner edge of the 17" x 9" cobra rs was slightly rubbing against the upper portion of the spindle.

David

You know that seems to be a common problem with these rims. When I first put my Cobra wheels on I had the same problem with the right side rubbing. It was fine jacked up but when we put the car down the right side rubbed pretty bad. I had put on 17x9's so I installed 1/8" or 1/4" spacers. I don't have the cobra brakes on my Blue 94 these are the 12" GT ones, My 90 has the Cobra brakes. I can still use the spare wheel with skinny tires on my 94. You bought those Bogarts so you're all set. I need to do something for the Red 90 if I'm gonna run it every now and then.

Mike:cool:

[David Neibert]

:cool:

You know that seems to be a common problem with these rims. When I first put my Cobra wheels on I had the same problem with the right side rubbing. It was fine jacked up but when we put the car down the right side rubbed pretty bad. I had put on 17x9's so I installed 1/8" or 1/4" spacers. I don't have the cobra brakes on my Blue 94 these are the 12" GT ones, My 90 has the Cobra brakes. I can still use the spare wheel with skinny tires on my 94. You bought those Bogarts so you're all set. I need to do something for the Red 90 if I'm gonna run it every now and then.

Mike:cool:

Mike,

Yeah...I'm all set for the track, but if I have a flat tire up front I might be in trouble. Originally I thought I could just transfer a rear tire up to the front and use the factory spare on the rear, but considering the rubbing issue we just spoke of, I'm thinking the 275-40 tire might not clear the spindle. I've seen lots of guys running spacers on the front when using the late model spindle.

Oh well, I'll deal with that if and when it happens.

David