Skool me on Innovative Wideband Products....

I've been running a PLX wideband/data-logger system for years and it finally has failed on me. PLX has decided to not offer support for the repair of their product so I'm forced to look into other brands. I'm attempting to fix the unit, but all the part numbers have been scratched off and reverse engineering the commponents is proving more difficult. I may get it to work by next week (been working on it for three weeks now..)but I wont bet any money on it.

In the past I never was a fan of the innovative product line, because at the time, only the LM-1 was available and I wanted a permanent install, which led me to the PLX stuff.

I'm new to the innovative line of products and I was wondering if someone could help me decide what is right for my application.

I need the ability to data-log A/F ratio in addition to RPM, TPS voltage (0-5v), MAF voltage(0-5v), and intake temp(0-5v). I would also like to log MPH (speed input) and an external PLX 2-axis g-sensor which outputs a 0-5v, but these two signals are not 100% needed.

I already have a Bosch sensor from my current set-up, so I'm not sure if I can purchase a controller separately and just add some sort of digital display and some method to data-log. I don't need a fancy gauge, I just need a simple 3 or 4 digit led display to view while I drive.

I was looking at the SSI-4, but I'm not sure that I can set it up for the inputs that I need, not do I know if I have enough to log.

Does the LC-1 unit data-log when connected to a laptop? So if I did add the SSI-4, then I could log a total of 5 sensor values??

I've also been looking at the aux box, since it has 5 internal signals and I can also add additional inputs which should take care of tps, intake, maf and the g-sensor is already included. However, I'm not sure if it works with the LC-1 or if it only works with the LM-1 stuff.

It could be great if someone could lay out all the facts. I'm looking for the most cost effective system too since I already dropped $500+ on the set-up I have which is now a paper weight. Thanks

LC-1 does't datalog. A laptop connected to it can. The DL-32 also can log info from the LC-1.

See this thread over at Innovate as I think it asks your questions. You can sign up on there, then pm the guy who has the setup and see how it likes it.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5895&highlight=data+log+lc-1+lma-3

Note I think you need the DL-32 rather than the LMA-3 (aux box) if you want to data log without a laptop, as the LMA-3 is the one with a memory card in it.

So LC-1 plus DL-32 gets you data logging of everything you want and more plus includes a g-force meter and can save it to a memory card on the DL-32 thus not needing a laptop to log.

LC-1 plus LMA-3 gets you data logging of everything you want plus incluses a g-force meter and requires a laptop to log any data.

>It could be great if someone could lay out all the facts

Frit should chime in soon...he also has significant knowledge, etc. Searching his 2527 id or fturner should bring up some interesting stuf.

I don't have a problem with using a laptop since my old set-up needed the laptop to wireless data log. Also, when I log I usually make changes to the chip which I need the computer for anyways...

The Auxbox is more within my price range....and it looks like I can get the LC-1 without the sensor too. I'm still ticked off about this PLX dumping out on me....I have some components on order, but hope is slim for this....

Anyhow, it looked like the LMA-3 had a different connection than what the LC-1 has for its serial in/outs. I'm guessing that I would use a terminator in the LC-1 input, and the output would go to the LMA-3, which would then connect to my laptop. What I don't like about innovative stuff is that it requires sensor heating and sensor calibration often, where-as the plx needed no calibration of any sort.

The calibration is to allow accuracy with Bosch sensors, I just calibrate it once per year.

I would just call innovate and see what they say for how to wire it all up and such.

fastsc92 said:

I don't have a problem with using a laptop since my old set-up needed the laptop to wireless data log. Also, when I log I usually make changes to the chip which I need the computer for anyways...

The Auxbox is more within my price range....and it looks like I can get the LC-1 without the sensor too. I'm still ticked off about this PLX dumping out on me....I have some components on order, but hope is slim for this....

Anyhow, it looked like the LMA-3 had a different connection than what the LC-1 has for its serial in/outs. I'm guessing that I would use a terminator in the LC-1 input, and the output would go to the LMA-3, which would then connect to my laptop. What I don't like about innovative stuff is that it requires sensor heating and sensor calibration often, where-as the plx needed no calibration of any sort.

Click to expand...

The LC1 doesn't require often calibration, it allows you to calibrate. This is a plus if you have doubts about your readings.

The heater circuit is part of ALL 02 sensors, wide band or otherwise. Even the super old school 02 sensors require heating to work. Heater circuits were added to them to quicken warm up times and to keep the sensor at operating temperature during periods of minimal exhaust temp (like deceleration and idle). A wide band simply won't (can't) work without a heating circuit. When you first energize an 02 sensor the delay time at first when it reads super rich is simply a period of time when the sensor is warming up and not reading anything valid.

I think the only Innovate product that comes with a serial connector is the LC-1. The rest just come with the little headphone jack style connector that daisy chains them together. Therefore you don't need any additional connectors to make it work together. As for a simple LED readout for the WB, check with www.moates.net for an inexpensive readout. They also sell the Innovate product line, not sure how their pricing compares but check it out.

If you get the Innovate system I think you'll really like the datalogger. I've used several different dataloggers and I think Innovate has by far the best datalogging system. The one thing I wish they had is wireless connectivity.

Also, I found the Innovate advertising to be a little misleading. On the aux box and DL-32 they advertise 5 channels of datalogging but the thing is the onboard sensors take up those channels. In reality they only have a TOTAL of 5 so if you use the on board MAP sensor and G-meter then you are left with only 3 channels. Add RPM, MAF, and TPS and the component is full. The nice thing is that one of the channels also has an on board thermocouple so you can monitor air temps like blower outlet or EGT but if you want to do all of this at once you need to get an extra SS-1 to cover all the sensor inputs.

If you aren't in a big panic you might want to wait and see how some of the more advanced dataloggers are going to work out. For a little more money you might soon be able to datalog the EEC itself and simply import your WB02 data into there.

But that stuff isn't ready yet.

XR7 Dave said:

If you aren't in a big panic you might want to wait and see how some of the more advanced dataloggers are going to work out. For a little more money you might soon be able to datalog the EEC itself and simply import your WB02 data into there.

But that stuff isn't ready yet.

Click to expand...

I've been hearing the same thing, and I have time to wait. I'm working on the PLX unit more this week as a last attempt to get it going right.

I'm glad you cleared up the issue with the aux box. I was assuming that it had five internal, and 5 additional sensors that you could use. So i basically has the same ammount as my PLX unit. Which isn't bad, but I wish it had more.

Also, I believe the Innovative products now have bluetooth adapters for wireless connectivity....

That Moates o-meter seems pretty slick. Has storage and playback capability of a/f, and the price is right... Looks like you get a price break on the LC-1 if you buy that display. $124 vs $149

I was looking over some more info and it actually might be better for me if I bought two SSI-4 units. Since I already have a stand-alone g-sensor, I could log:

Native A/F Ratio

SSI-4 #1
1-RPM
2-MPH
3-TPS
4-MAF

SSI-4 #2
1-ACT
2-G-Sensor
3-Open
4-Open

I could then use the other two inputs for an external map sensor (Which I have...) and even measure ignition advance or injector duty cycle. It would cost me $260 vs $250 for the LMA-3 which only has 5 channels.

fastsc92 said:

I was looking over some more info and it actually might be better for me if I bought two SSI-4 units. Since I already have a stand-alone g-sensor, I could log:

Native A/F Ratio

SSI-4 #1
1-RPM
2-MPH
3-TPS
4-MAF

SSI-4 #2
1-ACT
2-G-Sensor
3-Open
4-Open

I could then use the other two inputs for an external map sensor (Which I have...) and even measure ignition advance or injector duty cycle. It would cost me $260 vs $250 for the LMA-3 which only has 5 channels.

Click to expand...

Definitely agree. Injector duty cycle would have been fun to watch before with your 42lb injectors but now that you have the 60's you won't have an issue. Ignition timing is one that I've been thinking about working out but haven't taken the time to do. If you figure that out let us know!

If you can hold off a bit longer, you might want to keep an eye out for the release of the Pegasus at Moates.net, which by the looks of it is sometime this month. Not only can it give you access to ALOT of info for datalogging, but it supports two 0-5v inputs so you can wire in your Wideband and a MAP sensor for boost.

No wire tapping etc... just plug it into the J3 port, upload your tune and turn on datalogging and away you go.

Frit

fturner said:

If you can hold off a bit longer, you might want to keep an eye out for the release of the Pegasus at Moates.net, which by the looks of it is sometime this month. Not only can it give you access to ALOT of info for datalogging, but it supports two 0-5v inputs so you can wire in your Wideband and a MAP sensor for boost.

No wire tapping etc... just plug it into the J3 port, upload your tune and turn on datalogging and away you go.

Frit

Click to expand...

Now that's what I'm talking about! Plug it in and away you go!! Frit don't you dare think of leaving us now!!

Ira

Ira R. said:

Now that's what I'm talking about! Plug it in and away you go!! Frit don't you dare think of leaving us now!!

Ira

Click to expand...

Too late I'm outta here vamoosed gone....

I want the Pegasus for myself, so darn tootin I'm gonna get it working eh .

I've also worked out another method of data logging thats really on the cheap side... except for of course the wideband O2 which is about $200, but put that against how much a rebuild will cost . Unfortunately this does require tapping the wires at the EEC. Including software, your looking at about $100 and a little creativity. It requires using a DataQ DI-148u ($50) which gives you 8 X -10 volt to +10 volt channels so that covers the sensor voltage range you need + some. You wire in your wideband 0 - 5 volt,MAFV,TPS,ACT,ECT,MAP (for boost), RPM and still have an extra.

Now's here the catch, and I figured out how to deal with RPM. I grabbed the circuit board off the back of a spare gauge cluster I had and got creative with it. You need to supply 12 volts to 1 pin, ground to the other pin, and the tach signal from the EEC on the 3rd pin. Now you need to tap off of pin 8 of the chip thats on the board which gives you a voltage to rpm relationship. 2 volts gives you 0 RPM and around 4.5 volts gives you around 4000 RPM's and it will go up to 8 volts at around 7000 rpm's (I haven't tested it that far), which isn't a problem for the dataq cause it can take up to 10 volts.. I actually have a table built that is accurate.

This would be called a poor man's datalogger .



Frit

Here's some pics

I've datalogged at 10 times a second with this setup with my laptop .

Frit

One thing to keep in mind about the Pegasus is that it is NOT a permanent installation. It is for tuning only. It can run the car indefinitely but the thing is that it will not allow you to re-install the EEC in the stock location, and by default must "hang out" on your floorboards. I made the mistake of driving around like this for weeks until someone bumped the unit and it came disconnected from the EEC while the car was running. Fried the interface and my EEC all in .001 sec.

Just something to keep in mind.

Whatever route I take, I'd like it to be a permanent install. I often moved my PLX unit to other cars and it was easy enough since I used terminal blocks for the input connection.

The good thing is that I have everything pre-wired to the terminal blocks, and I also have the g-sensor, map sensor, and wideband sensor. Now I just need a new controller, and some SSI-4's. I lose the conviencene of having one unit such as the LMA-3, but I'd rather have an abundance of channels to record.

Back to the ignition timing, I only read things briefly, but it looks like you need a crank trigger and an RPM signal. Luckly for us, we can use the crank sensor. So input one must be used as an RPM signal. Input 3 can connect to the crank sensor. In the config box in the LM programmer, you would set the number of "teeth in trigger wheel" to "3" and the "number of missing" teeth to zero. The last step is to measure the offset in degrees BTDC.

Seems fairly simple, and you could confirm after you set it up by pulling the spout plug and you should be getting 10deg, assuming that is what is set as base timing in your chip/tuner.

I've been reading about the Innovative stuff for only a day now and I feel like I've already got a good feel for their products. Off topic...but do you need to include a ground reference for each sensor? Seems like a pain to run a bunch more wires. The PLX software had a voltage offset so that you could shift the measurment if the grounds were different. This way you used 1 system ground for everything. My ground signals were only usually off by .06volts.

fastsc92 said:

Back to the ignition timing, I only read things briefly, but it looks like you need a crank trigger and an RPM signal. Luckly for us, we can use the crank sensor. So input one must be used as an RPM signal. Input 3 can connect to the crank sensor. In the config box in the LM programmer, you would set the number of "teeth in trigger wheel" to "3" and the "number of missing" teeth to zero. The last step is to measure the offset in degrees BTDC.

Click to expand...

I've been working on logging ignition timing. See this thread for where I started, with the idea of monitoring the lines from the DIS to the Coil packs. Hopefully with that being able to identify when the DIS isn't functioning properly (rather than watching signals from the EEC to the DIS)
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100626

It appears it would be quite easy to monitor the 12v signal on the wires using a voltage divider to get it into the 0-5v dc range. That along with measuring Crankshaft trigger input should allow you to calculate actual timing. Tap the EEC commanded timing and then you have some useful information.

I know my Aux Box isn't up to the task of watching all coil signals on top of crankshaft position so that's been keeping me from getting to aggressive at the project..plus I got other stuff to do.

fastsc92 said:

Whatever route I take, I'd like it to be a permanent install. I often moved my PLX unit to other cars and it was easy enough since I used terminal blocks for the input connection.

The good thing is that I have everything pre-wired to the terminal blocks, and I also have the g-sensor, map sensor, and wideband sensor. Now I just need a new controller, and some SSI-4's. I lose the conviencene of having one unit such as the LMA-3, but I'd rather have an abundance of channels to record.

Back to the ignition timing, I only read things briefly, but it looks like you need a crank trigger and an RPM signal. Luckly for us, we can use the crank sensor. So input one must be used as an RPM signal. Input 3 can connect to the crank sensor. In the config box in the LM programmer, you would set the number of "teeth in trigger wheel" to "3" and the "number of missing" teeth to zero. The last step is to measure the offset in degrees BTDC.

Seems fairly simple, and you could confirm after you set it up by pulling the spout plug and you should be getting 10deg, assuming that is what is set as base timing in your chip/tuner.

I've been reading about the Innovative stuff for only a day now and I feel like I've already got a good feel for their products. Off topic...but do you need to include a ground reference for each sensor? Seems like a pain to run a bunch more wires. The PLX software had a voltage offset so that you could shift the measurment if the grounds were different. This way you used 1 system ground for everything. My ground signals were only usually off by .06volts.

Click to expand...

If you look at the engine schematic you'll see that most sensors use one return ground to the EEC. I just tap that line for all my sensor grounds. Just don't tap that line for a high current ground (like an injector) or a module ground or you could mess up the EEC's reference. Since I also transfer my system from car to car and I never know what the ground quality will be in any given car, I use the EEC's sensor reference ground. That way my datalogger sees the exact same ground (good or bad) that the EEC sees and therefore reports back exactly what the EEC is seeing. That way I never have to check reference because I'm referencing the exact same thing that the EEC is using.

Hey FastSC92, I assume you tried the PLX forums to see if anyone else found a fix for the issue?

I hope mine don't crap out on me, I like that setup the best, but PLX doesn't seem to be the best at customer support...

sizemoremk said:

Hey FastSC92, I assume you tried the PLX forums to see if anyone else found a fix for the issue?

I hope mine don't crap out on me, I like that setup the best, but PLX doesn't seem to be the best at customer support...

Click to expand...

I tired the forums with no replies many of times. I also called them at least 4 times, and sent multiple emails to the general tech, and also to specific individuals with no replies.

I can understand that they are phasing out the old product line, but they should still offer some form of support. I was trying to get some part numbers so that I could replace components myself, but they never responded to my emails, and I was VERY clear on what I was looking for. I even had a detailed list of what was going wrong with it, and I probed voltages from every component so that they would have a clear picture of what was going on.

The worst part is, that they don't even have a wideband/data logger or stand alone datalogger on the market and wont expect one until next year. So even if I wanted to get their new stuff and stay a loyal customer....I can't. The newest software keeps getting delayed, and I'm so discusted with them at this point.

They are driving loyal and new customers away and Innovative is beginning to take the market with new and better products, updated software, and prices that are reasonable.

The only way I'll stick with PLX is if I can get my unit working. Parts will be here at the end of the week and I have about a 10% chance that it'll work. I took my best guess at the part numbers for a lot of the commponents that I'm replacing, which I spent about 4 weeks researching.

I've been trying to find a used unit as a second alternative, but I'm coming up short in that department as well....