PDA

View Full Version : Install New PP Throttle Body, Car Runs Like Crap!



rickbtbird
08-30-2008, 07:22 PM
Install a Professional Products Throttle Body today, now the car runs like crap. I don't know what's going on but it acts like I have a large vacuum leak in the intake.

First issue I ran into was in the instructions. It says to adjust the Idle speed screw counter clockwise until the throttle body butterfly is fully closed Then continue to turn it until you get .010 clearance. Once done, turn the screw clockwise one full turn. If you follow those instructions the throttle sticks because the butterfly hits the TB throat and slightly jams. I have to turn the screw another 1/4 turn to get the proper clearance.

The second issue (which is the biggest) is after adjusting the TPS to .925 volts I start the car and it idles was up in the 2k rpm area way to long. Then after about 15 seconds or so it finally drops down to about 750rpm. If I rev the motor it hangs in the 2k rpm area again and then drops. It makes the car very un-drivable.

Anybody know what's wrong? I had to fall off the new TB and go back to stock.

fturner
08-30-2008, 08:38 PM
Have the same TB and don't have any of those symptons.

Did you adjust the IAC bypass screw? Its the screw that is on housing that the IAC valve screws onto. You need to screw that all the way in (don't force it) and back it off about half a turn or so. Unplug the IAC and start the car up (you may need someone to feather the throttle to hold the idle at first) then adjust the IAC screw until the car is idling around 500 or so and sounding like its about to die on you. When it can hold its own shut the car down, and plug the IAC back in. You should be good to go for the most part.

Right now its allowing way too much air into the motor hence the reason your seeing that high idle situation. The other screw on the other side is just to setup the throttle stop position. It is not meant to adjust idle.

Have you rounded out the inlet where the throttle body bolts onto? If you haven't you could end up losing performance over the stock TB because of turbulence.

Frit

rickbtbird
08-30-2008, 08:49 PM
Have the same TB and don't have any of those symptons.

Did you adjust the IAC bypass screw? Its the screw that is on housing that the IAC valve screws onto. You need to screw that all the way in (don't force it) and back it off about half a turn or so. Unplug the IAC and start the car up (you may need someone to feather the throttle to hold the idle at first) then adjust the IAC screw until the car is idling around 500 or so and sounding like its about to die on you. When it can hold its own shut the car down, and plug the IAC back in. You should be good to go for the most part.

Right now its allowing way too much air into the motor hence the reason your seeing that high idle situation. The other screw on the other side is just to setup the throttle stop position. It is not meant to adjust idle.

Have you rounded out the inlet where the throttle body bolts onto? If you haven't you could end up losing performance over the stock TB because of turbulence.

Frit

Yea it was fully shut out of the box and I tryed to adjust it but the more I opened the valve the more idle RPM's I got.

I didn't port match the TB to the inlet as I only have one inlet right now and I'd rather not damage the only one I have.

This car was just reassembled about three weeks ago. I don't have any vacuum leaks that I can find. I'm running about 18-19hg at idle with the stocker TB.

fturner
08-30-2008, 09:25 PM
Open the TB up so you can see the edges of the butterfly... is it clean and smooth along the edges?

Frit

rickbtbird
08-30-2008, 10:26 PM
Open the TB up so you can see the edges of the butterfly... is it clean and smooth along the edges?

Frit

Yes it is, it's brand new out of the box.

Miller
08-30-2008, 10:33 PM
check the IAC screw isnt way open. theres nothign there that can eff the car up that you cant adjust. u need to play with it a bit.

posjr
08-30-2008, 10:44 PM
I had the same junk. My car also ran like ~~~~ after i installed it. I did a pressure test to find any leaks. And i had a leak from the throttle leakage. I took it off and is now on my self. Waste.

Miller
08-30-2008, 10:45 PM
the throttle linkage thing is held on by vac. its not meant to be pressurized. adjust your Tb the thing works u just need to set it up right.

rickbtbird
08-30-2008, 11:42 PM
The idle speed screw was set per the instruction and the IAC screw was bottemed out letting no air in. The TPS was at .925 after adjusting it. Serioulsy, the car runs like it has a major vacuum leak. I pulled it off and put the stock TB back on and the car runs normal now. I'm going to vacuum test it off the car with the shop vac. Also, if you open the IAC screw doesn't that allow more air in the system increasing the idle?

fturner
08-31-2008, 07:53 AM
Set up the throttle stop screw (its not an idle adjustment screw, thats what the screw is on the IAC) per spec and see exactly where it is binding inside the TB, then touch up the edge of the butterfly with some fine sandpaper to remove the binding... do not remove alot of material.

Your right about the IAC screw, it allows more air in so you can setup your base idle.

Also, double check the gaskets both for the IAC and the TB to inlet plenum. Make sure those are the right size.

There is nothing wrong with these TB's, and it only takes a bit pf patience and time to get them set up... just like any other car your modding.

Frit

rickbtbird
08-31-2008, 10:34 AM
Set up the throttle stop screw (its not an idle adjustment screw, thats what the screw is on the IAC) per spec and see exactly where it is binding inside the TB, then touch up the edge of the butterfly with some fine sandpaper to remove the binding... do not remove alot of material.

Your right about the IAC screw, it allows more air in so you can setup your base idle.

Also, double check the gaskets both for the IAC and the TB to inlet plenum. Make sure those are the right size.

There is nothing wrong with these TB's, and it only takes a bit pf patience and time to get them set up... just like any other car your modding.

Frit

In its current state I don't see how it could work. The ad said it was for the Thunderbird SC and I got instructions for a Mustang 5.0L setup. When I purchase something that’s suppose to be for our motors, I don't expect to have to machine the tolerance of the butterfly to a different specification to make it work nor am I satisfied or thrilled with the instruction for the TPS adjustment. It seems to me that this company manufactures these for the Mustang V8 and couldn't move them off the shelves quick enough so they decided to offer them to the Thunderbird SC 3.8 Super Charger setup but it doesn't actually work as they said it would. IMO it just isn’t prudent.

Jacob_Royer
08-31-2008, 11:55 AM
Professional Products = Un-Professional Products


At least thats what everyone on the mustang boards says! id stay away from the garbage they make there! from what i understand a tb upgrade doesent do much of anything for our cars OR mustangs anyway...

fturner
08-31-2008, 03:46 PM
Upgrade wise, unless your getting a bigger inlet plenum etc, it's pointless for the most part.

As for the TB... I must of got a rare one then :rolleyes: because I've had no issues with mine. Followed the instructions to the T and adjusted the TPS voltage and the IAC valve and its been singing a song ever since.

Plug-n-play on an SC.... you've got the wrong car if you think thats gonna happen.

Frit

KMT
08-31-2008, 04:04 PM
>As for the TB... I must of got a rare one then because I've had no issues with mine.

Good point. How long since you installed yours?

I wonder if both of you should compare part numbers, as an example...might shed some light.

>Plug-n-play on an SC.... you've got the wrong car if you think thats gonna happen.

'nother good point :)

More like plug-n-pray...

fturner
08-31-2008, 04:08 PM
Ok, I'm game, part number I have is 75mm TB T-bird SC Polish #69232.

Frit

MercsSC1
08-31-2008, 06:31 PM
all right this may seem dumb ... but block the idle air controller right off ..make a gasket and put it on ...blocking the holes ...and you will know soon if you have a leak ..... adjust the idle via throttle body screw ...and work from there...dave

Jeremy_K
08-31-2008, 10:37 PM
I had the same problems with mine and I messed with it quite a bit. I ended up closing the large TB screw all the way clockwise and now it runs fine. The only issue I have is that it sticks when you first step on the gas. I port matched my 94-95 inlet plenum to the TB and smoothed out the transition into the inlet.

littleboylan
08-31-2008, 11:41 PM
When I installed my PP Throttlebody, I had to do all the same adjustments as you have. I also needed to un-hook my battery for a short period of time to reset my ecu. Give that a shot and see if it helps.

Mike

rickbtbird
08-31-2008, 11:48 PM
Ok, I'm game, part number I have is 75mm TB T-bird SC Polish #69232.

Frit

The box says 75mm Throttle Body T-bird Super Coupe Satin 69233. There's a label on the TB itself that mentions it could be either 69232 or 69233.

Fritz, explain to me again how sanding down the butterfly would be beneficial.

rickbtbird
09-01-2008, 12:04 AM
When I installed my PP Throttlebody, I had to do all the same adjustments as you have. I also needed to un-hook my battery for a short period of time to reset my ecu. Give that a shot and see if it helps.

Mike

Yea battery was disconnected. TB Idle Screw was set, TPS was set, ran like the car has a large vacuum leak or disconnected vacuum hose. Adjust the IAC screw and it got worse. Put the old TB back on and it runs normal. My guess is, one of these three.

The TB is too big for my setup.
There's a large vacuum leak that is exacerbated by the new TB.
The new lot of IAC I got are defective or meant for another car.
I remember back when I got my 90ís IAC replaced it ran a high idle similarly to this but when I put an OEM used one in its place the issue went away.

Also, I think at some point Iíll pull off the blower and check the intake manifold and the injectors again, trace all the vacuum lines and pressure/vacuum test thing one step at a time as I reassemble it.

james5275
09-01-2008, 01:29 AM
Yea battery was disconnected. TB Idle Screw was set, TPS was set, ran like the car has a large vacuum leak or disconnected vacuum hose. Adjust the IAC screw and it got worse. Put the old TB back on and it runs normal. My guess is, one of these three.

The TB is too big for my setup.
There's a large vacuum leak that is exacerbated by the new TB.
The new lot of IAC I got are defective or meant for another car.
I remember back when I got my 90ís IAC replaced it ran a high idle similarly to this but when I put an OEM used one in its place the issue went away.

Also, I think at some point Iíll pull off the blower and check the intake manifold and the injectors again, trace all the vacuum lines and pressure/vacuum test thing one step at a time as I reassemble it.

Please tell us that you have an OEM IAC on the new throttle body. To my understanding, there isn't an aftermarket IAC that will work. Good luck!
jj

fturner
09-01-2008, 09:35 AM
There may be some residual, for the lack of a better word, flashing along the edge of the butterfly when it was cut and they didn't sand it, or file it down enough. Its just a thought that you might want to look at that.

I look at mine and I have no binding even if the throttle stop screw is barely touching the stop.

I don't know if you have a chip or not in your car, but I do because of the 42's and I did have to dial down the lower MAF transfer a tad to bring my AFR back in line as the car was a bit rich, but it wasn't significant and I could have left it alone for all intents and purposes.

Frit

rickbtbird
09-01-2008, 09:44 AM
Please tell us that you have an OEM IAC on the new throttle body. To my understanding, there isn't an aftermarket IAC that will work. Good luck!
jj

They'er OEM for sure.

Gerry Rider
09-01-2008, 11:28 AM
Hang in there. I had the same problem after installing that TB. Drove me nuts. Since the stock TB is the major inlet restriction, replacing it with the big TB increases flow dramatically and for some reason increases the effects of any vacuum leaks, even small ones. I finally found all leaks, adjusted the throttle plate so it was completely closed at idle and closed the IAC adjustment screw completely.
Seems to work fine now, with a noticeable performance improvement.
Gerry

bigpoppa822
09-01-2008, 02:48 PM
I bought this TB and put it on last winter, the car ran fine after some minor IAC adjustments and still runs fine. I set my TPS to .96 when I installed it, though.

rickbtbird
09-01-2008, 09:44 PM
I bought this TB and put it on last winter, the car ran fine after some minor IAC adjustments and still runs fine. I set my TPS to .96 when I installed it, though.

I drove right through Wilmington, MA on my way and back from Pittsfield yesterday to visit some friends and relatives but I drove the Caddy instead of the Tbird. I enjoy the ride through that that area. My dad use to run through RT9 when we were kids on the traditional Sunday drive through Florence and into Look Park. I was born and raised in Adams/Cheshire district of northern Berkshire.

Glad to know someone was able to get this unit running right out of the box. If I disconnect the IAC it calms down a bit but still hangs for about 5 seconds at 1300 RPMs. Once I plug the IAC back in the high idle begins again around 1800 RPMs. The reaction of the IAC when disconnected is sort of strange compared to the stocker unit because, if you pull the IAC connector out of it, the engine will die almost every time.

I guess I got a follow up question; I did an air pressure test with the tester I got from spinning wheels. It's the one that attaches to the TB. I pressurized the system to about 12psi and there's constant air movement through the system. When I disconnect the air hose I can see the pressure go to zero within 5 seconds or less. Pressure is escaping through the system not through the air valve. My question is, how long should the system maintain pressure with no leaks?

bigpoppa822
09-01-2008, 09:50 PM
I guess I got a follow up question; I did an air pressure test with the tester I got from spinning wheels. It's the one that attaches to the TB. I pressurized the system to about 12psi and there's constant air movement through the system. When I disconnect the air hose I can see the pressure go to zero within 5 seconds or less. Pressure is escaping through the system not through the air valve. My question is, how long should the system maintain pressure with no leaks?

Won't the bypass valve relieve the pressure in the system? Or would it be the opposite and hold pressure? Oh, think about open intake valves, especially with valve overlap so the air goes in and out.

Mike8675309
09-01-2008, 10:28 PM
Not going to say it's a throttle body problem yet... but I am having an issue in my intake setup I need to find. I recently resealed all items after the throttle body. Next is to pressure check the system, in case the stock intercooler core is leaking.

I have a 75mm PP throttle body and what has me feeling it may be a problem is that with the idle air screw closed completely and the throttle stop all the way released such that throttle plate will catch in the bore, the engine will idle at 650rpm even with the IAC disconnected. With everything closed and the IAC disconnected, the engine should die. As I work this problem out myself, I'll provide some feedback to this thread. I'll be working on it over the next couple weeks.

rickbtbird
09-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Won't the bypass valve relieve the pressure in the system? Or would it be the opposite and hold pressure? Oh, think about open intake valves, especially with valve overlap so the air goes in and out.

Well my 90 pressure tested the same way so that question might be all for not.

I was thinking of Williamsburg, MA.. :o

posjr
09-01-2008, 11:28 PM
The only issue I have is that it sticks when you first step on the gas.

Try taking off you crusie control lever from the TB. I had the same problem too. Crazy, but try it! The tb lever sits alittle more back.

rickbtbird
09-02-2008, 08:48 AM
Not going to say it's a throttle body problem yet... but I am having an issue in my intake setup I need to find. I recently resealed all items after the throttle body. Next is to pressure check the system, in case the stock intercooler core is leaking.

I have a 75mm PP throttle body and what has me feeling it may be a problem is that with the idle air screw closed completely and the throttle stop all the way released such that throttle plate will catch in the bore, the engine will idle at 650rpm even with the IAC disconnected. With everything closed and the IAC disconnected, the engine should die. As I work this problem out myself, I'll provide some feedback to this thread. I'll be working on it over the next couple weeks.

Good someone with a similar problem, so I'm not fully crazy after all :). I agree, I would have guess that:


If you pop off the IAC connector with the IAC screw fully closed while the car is running the motor should stumble enough to dies and most of the time should die. I mean, where's it getting air from? The stocker does this almost every time.

It could be leaking past the bore and around butterfly, letting in enough air and keeping the RPMís up.

superdadsc
09-02-2008, 09:13 AM
I have the same TB being installed with 60lbs, 76mm C&L, and a mail order tune from DD. I don't really like to hear these problems and I hope you sort them out. It seems like others have with some tinkering. I will keep you posted. Stephen

rickbtbird
09-02-2008, 09:24 AM
I have the same TB being installed with 60lbs, 76mm C&L, and a mail order tune from DD. I don't really like to hear these problems and I hope you sort them out. It seems like others have with some tinkering. I will keep you posted. Stephen

So do we. I mean, installing a TB isn't rocket science. It's pretty much done by adjusting the TPS voltage and IAC idle and drive it.

superdadsc
09-02-2008, 09:52 AM
After reading this and other post's I am feeling a little leary. The car has been down for over a year and it is getting close to being put back together. I just see it being put together and then having a hard time getting her right or something else will go wrong. I have put a lot of money in her, around 5grand :eek:and if something is wrong I will have to fork over more cash. I don't know squat about doing mechanical stuff myself so I don't really want to do this right away. Just ranting. Hope all goes well.. Stephen

Jeremy_K
09-02-2008, 03:28 PM
I have the same TB being installed with 60lbs, 76mm C&L, and a mail order tune from DD. I don't really like to hear these problems and I hope you sort them out. It seems like others have with some tinkering. I will keep you posted. Stephen

Dave knows about the problem. He saw mine at Carlisle and I told him about the issue. He recommended I adjust the TB screw all the way in and it's worked great since. Make sure you disconnect/re-connect the battery between any changes you make electronics wise. These TBs work, they're just tricky to set up. I had most all of these issues at one point but now it's working great. For the price, to me it was worth the hassle.

Mike8675309
09-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Note that it's not safe to immediately assume it's the throttle body. There are many locations where air can sneak in from and it's important to nail them down. Like I stated, I want to do a pressure test first.

The particular issue you can have with air leaking in that keeps the car idling even with the IAC disconnected is that the EEC-IV will then struggle to find the right IAC position to keep idle. Since a leak will often vary based on outside and manifold pressure, it will cause the EEC-IV to have to keep changing it's adaptive data, often catching it off guard allowing the engine to die.

I'm taking a methodical approach to this and suggest others do the same.

S_Mazza
09-02-2008, 07:18 PM
I have a 75mm PP throttle body and what has me feeling it may be a problem is that with the idle air screw closed completely and the throttle stop all the way released such that throttle plate will catch in the bore, the engine will idle at 650rpm even with the IAC disconnected. With everything closed and the IAC disconnected, the engine should die.

Well, if you have the throttle plate closed completely and it still runs, then you may have a leak. However, to run properly, you need the base idle setting (with the IAC unplugged) set high enough that the car at least has a chance of running. You should have enough air entering through the throttle plate or the IAC bypass (if available) that the engine can idle in park at about 100-150 RPM lower than the programmed idle.

To set it: Unplug the IAC, then start the car. You may have to give it a little throttle and ease off to help the car "find" idle. If it can't idle, open the TB stop screw a little (or the IAC bypass, if available).

You should dial in the TPS voltage after you dial in the throttle stop. If the required TB stop setting puts the TPS voltage out of range, then you adjust the TPS.

Rick, here is how to figure out if the throttle stop setting is messing up your idle. Put the stop screw back to the sticking position (1/4 turn back or whatever). Does the car idle fine? If so, then the problem is a lack of clearance around the throttle blade. There should be a mark on the throttle bore where the plate is binding. Set the throttle screw per my instructions above, then carefully clearance the binding spot until the bind goes away.

If the car still idles high even with the throttle stop screw closed, then you have a leak elsewhere.

You guys can solve these problems. Don't stress!

Mike8675309
09-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Well, if you have the throttle plate closed completely and it still runs, then you may have a leak.

I can't say it's closed completely yet as I haven't gone so far as to pull the throttle body off the manifold to verify it will actually close completely. That's the step after the general pressure check.

Good info on how to tune it. That's what I do as well. That's what had me befuddled when the stupid thing wouldn't stop idling even with all stuff backed off.

rickbtbird
09-02-2008, 09:16 PM
To set it: Unplug the IAC, then start the car. You may have to give it a little throttle and ease off to help the car "find" idle. If it can't idle, open the TB stop screw a little (or the IAC bypass, if available).

So this one has both and I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the IAC bypass screw shouldn’t be fully closed. If it is then there's some "other issue".



You should dial in the TPS voltage after you dial in the throttle stop. If the required TB stop setting puts the TPS voltage out of range, then you adjust the TPS.

That makes perfect sense but according to their instruction on the PP Throttle Body, you'll have to remove the TPS to tightn down the TPS adjustment screws on both sides.



Rick, here is how to figure out if the throttle stop setting is messing up your idle. Put the stop screw back to the sticking position (1/4 turn back or whatever). Does the car idle fine? If so, then the problem is a lack of clearance around the throttle blade. There should be a mark on the throttle bore where the plate is binding. Set the throttle screw per my instructions above, then carefully clearance the binding spot until the bind goes away.

Been there, done that. Didn't make a difference.



If the car still idles high even with the throttle stop screw closed, then you have a leak elsewhere.

Yup I agree.. Finding it is a real bummer. I have 18-19hg at idle.. No bubble during the pressure test on any of the connectors. Maybe my manifold or injectors are leaking?


You guys can solve these problems. Don't stress!
No stress here. I put it back to stock and did some burnouts down buy the pond.

89XR7TD
09-02-2008, 10:14 PM
I'm glad others are talking about these TB's cause I have one also and I'll know what to look out for if I ever get my fuel rail/injector problem solved:rolleyes:

Tom

S_Mazza
09-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Yup I agree.. Finding it is a real bummer. I have 18-19hg at idle.. No bubble during the pressure test on any of the connectors. Maybe my manifold or injectors are leaking?

Now that's weird. That's a lot of vacuum, so how much of a leak could you have?

Did you say that the problem started after you adjusted the TPS voltage? Was it ok before? If so, maybe you should back that down a little. My understanding is that the computer takes a baseline reading of the TPS voltage at startup, so you don't necessarily need to be right on. But maybe it's getting a little too high.

If the hanging rev problem was there before the TPS adjustment, then I don't know what is going on.

One odd place that you can have a vacuum leak is at the bearings for the supercharger bypass valve shaft. They have seals that wear out.

Mike, your trouble sounds odd as well. I hope you can nail it down.

rickbtbird
09-03-2008, 11:00 AM
Now that's weird. That's a lot of vacuum, so how much of a leak could you have?

Did you say that the problem started after you adjusted the TPS voltage? Was it ok before? If so, maybe you should back that down a little. My understanding is that the computer takes a baseline reading of the TPS voltage at startup, so you don't necessarily need to be right on. But maybe it's getting a little too high.

If the hanging rev problem was there before the TPS adjustment, then I don't know what is going on.

One odd place that you can have a vacuum leak is at the bearings for the supercharger bypass valve shaft. They have seals that wear out.

Mike, your trouble sounds odd as well. I hope you can nail it down.
My only other idea at this point would be to try a different part number IAC. These ones that I got from rock auto (via Motor Craft) worked funny on my 90 when I had it until I replaced it with the an original one from my 95. I screwed up and let it go with the car (sold three months ago). All three of them make that car run at high idle but on the 95 with a stock TB they were ok as long as i closed the IAC screw to almost fully closed. I'm hoping to get some used original IAC's in the mail this week for further testing. Hopefully they're usable.

rickbtbird
09-03-2008, 11:02 PM
For those who can't read the part number off the jpg, it says E9SZ-9F715-EB. It's was ordered under part number Motor Craft CX1826 or Ford E9SZ9F715EA. I have three of them and they all run the same on the two stocker TB I've attached to this car. When the car comes to a stop, it's sort of like a slow 3-4 second reduction to about 900-850rpm and then the TPS adjusts it down further. After going through the gears, during movement of the car, the idle will initially sit at 1100-1200 RPMs after a hard run and go down as low as 750RPMs on a light run. Once the car stops the RPMs drop down to 700-750.

Attaching the same IAC(s) to the PP TB, the motor runs way to wacked out to even drive the car. After the slightest goose of the throttle the idle hangs at 2k for 10-15 seconds and then goes to 750 or so.

I tried to call for support at PP today and I got a run around. "Oh everyone is at lunch" and "I'll have them call you when they get back" bull crap, nobody bothered. Might not be their problem anyhow but it would be nice to get someone that knows about these TBs.

Gerry Rider
09-08-2008, 09:06 AM
With mine, I have now consistently achieved a normal acting start and idle. I have a PP 75 mm TB, a C&L 76 mm MAF and a MAC CAI. Started with the same kind od wacked out running you describe, but after much tinkering, adjustments and computer relearning it now starts and idles as it should, maybe slightly high (900- 950), but quite OK. If does this consistently now everytime and holds this idle for extended times. This is with the throttle plate completely closed, a non-Ford IAC with the adjusting screw completely closed. It's working for me so far.
Gerry

rickbtbird
09-08-2008, 10:17 AM
With mine, I have now consistently achieved a normal acting start and idle. I have a PP 75 mm TB, a C&L 76 mm MAF and a MAC CAI. Started with the same kind od wacked out running you describe, but after much tinkering, adjustments and computer relearning it now starts and idles as it should, maybe slightly high (900- 950), but quite OK. If does this consistently now everytime and holds this idle for extended times. This is with the throttle plate completely closed, a non-Ford IAC with the adjusting screw completely closed. It's working for me so far.
Gerry

What was your issue and how was it resolved? Also, Just to set a bench mark on this. If you goose the idle and/or drive the car around to a stop light, how long does it take the engine to idle down to 900 or so?

Gerry Rider
09-08-2008, 12:42 PM
My issue was that I could not make it idle worth a damn. It would hunt up and down between 500 and 2000, sometimes hanging at some point (1500 - 2000) too high for a reasonable idle, then very very slowly dropping to something more reasonable (1000 - 1200), but still too high. As I said, after much tinkering, adjusting and adaptive relearning it now seems OK. I've been driving it to shows, and for fun now for more than a week and it's been fine. The other thing I did was to very lightly sand the edge of the throttle plate just to make sure it wasn't sticking. I still pull a code 41, lean right bank O2 sensor. I have a new sensor, but am waiting for a thread chaser to clean up the threads in the exhaust before installing it. Don't give up, I was so frustrated by it for a while I'd have junked the car for a nickle. It does work eventually.
Gerry

rickbtbird
09-08-2008, 01:32 PM
My issue was that I could not make it idle worth a damn. It would hunt up and down between 500 and 2000, sometimes hanging at some point (1500 - 2000) too high for a reasonable idle, then very very slowly dropping to something more reasonable (1000 - 1200), but still too high. As I said, after much tinkering, adjusting and adaptive relearning it now seems OK. I've been driving it to shows, and for fun now for more than a week and it's been fine. The other thing I did was to very lightly sand the edge of the throttle plate just to make sure it wasn't sticking. I still pull a code 41, lean right bank O2 sensor. I have a new sensor, but am waiting for a thread chaser to clean up the threads in the exhaust before installing it. Don't give up, I was so frustrated by it for a while I'd have junked the car for a nickle. It does work eventually.
Gerry

Thatís exactly my issue. Here's what I've done so far:

Verified the TPS was at .925 volts.
Disconnect the battery for 1/2 hour.
Swapped out the IAC.
Lightly sanded the TB butterfly.
Adjusted the throttle stop so the butterfly closes and bottoms out.
Insured the IAC idle adjustment was fully closed.

The only thing that's worked for me so far is to put the Stock TB back on.

I didn't get your bench mark (time to idle down) after an acceleration.

Gerry Rider
09-09-2008, 11:13 AM
I have not recorded a time to idle down after an accel, but it is quickly. A normal kind of response. The only real difference I've noted with the TB and MAF body changes is that it stumbles and seems to be missing on inititial accels after a cold start. (like a carburated engine not getting enough choke ) Once engine is warm, no problem. I think this is the feedback from the one bad O2 sensor, will find out when it is replaced.

Are you absolutely sure you found and stopped all the vacuum leaks. I think that the much higher level of air in flow amplifies the affect of any vacuum leaks.
Gerry

rickbtbird
09-09-2008, 11:54 AM
I have not recorded a time to idle down after an accel, but it is quickly. A normal kind of response. The only real difference I've noted with the TB and MAF body changes is that it stumbles and seems to be missing on inititial accels after a cold start. (like a carburated engine not getting enough choke ) Once engine is warm, no problem. I think this is the feedback from the one bad O2 sensor, will find out when it is replaced.

Are you absolutely sure you found and stopped all the vacuum leaks. I think that the much higher level of air in flow amplifies the affect of any vacuum leaks.
Gerry

Vacuum leaks are suspect on my car and root cause is still under investigation. I don't think it's any one vacuum line or IC system as they've all been tested. Next test will be the injectors and intake manifold. Thanks for your input, it's really helping. BTW, is your car an automatic or 5speed?

Gerry Rider
09-09-2008, 01:16 PM
Mine is an '89 5-Speed. Being an old jet engine design engineer makes me suspicious of things that just don't look right as well. There are 2 with the SC inlet and the high flow components. First, the nearly 90 degree turn by the cold air inlet directly in front of the MAF has the real potential for bad air flow readings when the MAF measurement is near the wall as the C&L sampling tube is (turbulence and boundary layer effects). The second is the large step between the big TB exit and the inlet plenum entrance. This is potentially a big turbulence generator (like to maintain laminar flow). I rounded off the plenum inlet step some, but I need to do a lot more before it will run as good as it should.
Gerry

Gerry Rider
09-26-2008, 01:13 PM
Rickbtbird:
Did you ever get your car running right witht the big throttle body? I don't drive mine a lot, but the more I drive it after making changes like that, the better it runs. I think the adaptive learning process is slow and it takes quite a few miles driving to get everything settled out right.
Gerry

superdadsc
09-27-2008, 09:57 AM
Just got my Bird running and as I stated I bought a PP 75TB for my setup w/ a 76 C&L. So far there seems to be no problem with the TB. I am picking up the car this morning and completing the exhaust. I posted a vid She is alive and the idle is right. That was without the tune in it as the chip wasn't installed yet, so I would think it will run even smoother. We will see. I quess the true test is when I take her down the road. I have to admit, Jose the mechanic did a great job, slow but a perfectionist. I really wanted to go to the Shoot Out but it just wasn't possible. Cost me 85 bucks for a T shirt. Hopefully someone that is hungry to race and eat will enjoy my ticket. Stephen

rickbtbird
09-27-2008, 10:39 AM
Rickbtbird:
Did you ever get your car running right witht the big throttle body? I don't drive mine a lot, but the more I drive it after making changes like that, the better it runs. I think the adaptive learning process is slow and it takes quite a few miles driving to get everything settled out right.
Gerry

I took mine off.. I'm going to reinstall it either later this fall or in the spring. I got a different problem now that sounds like a loose exhaust piece or something in that area. I need to root cause that before I do anything else to it. Anyway, over this winter I was hoping to remove the blower again and test the intake for leaks.. I got a used engine and a couple of sets of heads that I was thinking about having redone, ported ..ect.

I also got way behind on house hold chores right now. I got to close up the pool, all the summer toys and repair the law mower before winter starts to settle in otherwise I'm going to have a real mess when spring comes around.

Gerry Rider
09-27-2008, 04:35 PM
Good luck with it when you do reinstall it. I'll let you know if I learn anymore about them that might be of help.

Winter readiness jobs have to be addressed as long as we live in cold climates. I see you live in Vernon. I retired early from P&W 10 years ago after 33 years living in Glastonbury. I'm now in the very rural Catskill Mountains of NY state, so we have real winter here and I have to get ready too. I am going to do some SC stuff too however, like polish and install a '95 blower on my '89, and rebuild the front end. Winter is long making lots of time for it.
Good luck again
Gerry

fturner
09-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Well, I gues the verdict is in with you guys that the PP TB is garbage. Its funny how I didn't have a problem with the one I have and only required a couple of tweaks to dial it in without even adjusting the tune on the chip.

Did it work out of the box... heck no, but after 30 minutes all was well. I then optimized it by adjusting my tune to it.

Everyone wants the easy road out :rolleyes:.

Frit

rickbtbird
09-27-2008, 06:18 PM
Well, I gues the verdict is in with you guys that the PP TB is garbage. Its funny how I didn't have a problem with the one I have and only required a couple of tweaks to dial it in without even adjusting the tune on the chip.

Did it work out of the box... heck no, but after 30 minutes all was well. I then optimized it by adjusting my tune to it.

Everyone wants the easy road out :rolleyes:.

Frit

Did anybody say anthing about a verdict? Where you getting this from, Fritz?

Gerry Rider
09-27-2008, 06:37 PM
Not from me, I think it works great.
Gerry

superdadsc
10-02-2008, 07:30 AM
Well, I spoke a little eary on the TB. Seems to stall when comming to a light. But then again I had no boost and a baddd oil leak so who's to say. At the shop , let's see what they can do. I am not so sure the product is bad as you just need to dial her in. If she doesn't get dialed in then I will be pissed, but I am pissed anyway so I guess it's just another day with my SC:mad::mad: Stephen

rickbtbird
10-02-2008, 01:08 PM
Well, I spoke a little eary on the TB. Seems to stall when comming to a light. But then again I had no boost and a baddd oil leak so who's to say. At the shop , let's see what they can do. I am not so sure the product is bad as you just need to dial her in. If she doesn't get dialed in then I will be pissed, but I am pissed anyway so I guess it's just another day with my SC:mad::mad: Stephen


OIL leak where? Do you have the correct PCV on the car as if you don't it could cause blow by that looks like an oil leak.

The TB issue I had didn't cause stalling. Might be a different problem.

superdadsc
10-02-2008, 07:47 PM
The mechanic replaced the rear main seal as the original builder put it in backwards.:eek: When I saw all the oil I called him and thats what we thought it was. He stated he would fix it but I was bumming as I knew it would take a long time. Once we got it on the lift we could see it was coming from the oil cooler next to the filter. It has a seal and was leaking bad.

So its at a real speed shop. Cool place, a bunch of 7 sec turbo stangs there.:eek: I don't see why he won't sort things out. I also will have him tune it, get all the vac lines right. Also going to install pillar guage's, one temp and one for boost along with a 5 inch tach.:D We'll see!

Stephen

fturner
10-11-2008, 02:46 PM
Ok, I reinstalled the TB today cause I went back to stock for other reasons. I've got no prob with this TB until now and here's what I've found....

My vacuum went all to heck and I was seeing an AFR of 18.5 or so at idle, so air was getting in where it shouldn't. Never had this issue before so I started investigating. When I sprayed brake cleaner on the side of the TB at the springs for the throttle plate the car smoothed right out then almost stalled because I sprayed too much there. I tested it 5 times and its apparent there's a BIG leak there. There's a black plastic grommet there and the darn thing had a crack in it.....

So, I apologize as I was mistaken about this TB. It sat on a shelf in my shop for a month and now it leaks most of the time. Guess you get what you pay for.

Anyways, the TB has potential and actually flows very well. Just got to figure out how to seal up that shaft properly. Perhaps someone with some savy can work with power products on a better sealing option, as I tend to be a bit too blunt ;).

Frit

ps: We all make mistakes I guess :(.

Gerry Rider
10-11-2008, 05:27 PM
Mine leaks a small amount there, but not enough to even bother the idle air. The car is torn apart right now, installing a '94/'95 blower. I'll look at the leak when I get it together again, but overall I'm pleased with the PP TB.
Gerry

neverfastenough
10-11-2008, 05:34 PM
My 70mm BBK leaks at the shaft too. There are o rings on it, I replaced them, and it made it better, but I cant figure out a way to seal it completely.

Gerry Rider
10-11-2008, 05:58 PM
There probably isn't a way to seal it totally, since the shaft has to rotate freely, which means at least a small clearance. "O" rings may be the best solution to minimize it. Have to keep them lubed however to preclude wear or damage to the seal surface which would make the leak worse over time.
Gerry

fturner
10-12-2008, 08:59 AM
My vacumm went from 20 down to 17 with a very badly running motor and my AFR went to 18 and 19 showing way lean. Before I went back to the stock TB it had no issues so sitting on the shelf must of dried that seal out.

Oh well, gotta take it off and see if I can seal it up.

Frit

rickbtbird
10-12-2008, 10:50 AM
Mine is brand new so the vacuum leak I have must be in the intake else although removing the PP body and going back to stock, the motor seems to run normal. I haven't been able to find the leak yet.

watsonlk
10-12-2008, 02:35 PM
... Since the stock TB is the major inlet restriction, replacing it with the big TB increases flow dramatically and for some reason increases the effects of any vacuum leaks, even small ones....
Gerry

(Catching up so please forgive if already discussed)

If the plenum is stock size and not even matched, then how is he getting any more flow. Not sure how more flow could affect the vacuum leak symptoms but I'll put that one off until later :D

It's forced so it will only pull as much as the smallest opening\restriction.
Small gains unless you have opened it up elsewhere, especially the plenum.

I have SCP TB and made a new gasket for the IAC valve. I made the two holes to flow air about 75% the normal size. I read on a couple of boards this helps all Fords with the 'hanging idle'.
I had the same problem, the idle would hover around 2k then drop after a few seconds down the perfect mark of 750.

I could have done nothing with the new gasket but it has not done it since.

watsonlk
10-12-2008, 02:44 PM
...The second is the large step between the big TB exit and the inlet plenum entrance. This is potentially a big turbulence generator (like to maintain laminar flow). I rounded off the plenum inlet step some, but I need to do a lot more before it will run as good as it should.
Gerry

And this would be what I was referring to earlier, port matching.

It will not increase the air flow volume but is smoothing the air flow out between the TB exit and plenum entrance, as mentioned above.

Won't cause this issue though.
I vote for adjusting and adaptive learning.
Mine seemed to really have to take several trips to get the idle settled in on a couple of attempts, other times it seemed rather quick to smooth out.
Nothing was changed before and after, just unhooked the battery for some stereo work.

Gerry Rider
10-12-2008, 05:04 PM
I have ported the inlet plenum to match the PP 75mm TB gasket for the '95 blower and plenum I'm installing on my '89. Was pretty quick and easy with a Dremel tool and some sanding rolls. The big TB worked fine on the '89 plenum with only the corners rounded to smooth the flow. This sort of ported setup should now pull a lot more flow than that did. Can't reach any further inside the plenum to open the whole thing up more, so I guess this is about as good as I can get it.

I agree that it takes a lot of "Adoptive Learning" to get the idle right with the PP TB. It took me a several tries, with driving before the idle settled down to an acceptable, repeatable and steady level. I'll probably have to go through it again with new changes.
Gerry

S_Mazza
10-13-2008, 12:54 PM
You may want to see if you can find a shaft seal at a bearing distributor. The bypass valves can leak at the shaft too. Ford put in needle bearings with seals on each side. Those are hard to get now, so you can use a regular roller bearing and add a seal beside it. If you can get the diameter of the shaft, the ID of the hole, and the depth you have to work with, you can probably find something. I forget if the PP TBs have a solid bushing or a needle bearing at the shaft - does anyone know? I am guessing bushing.

watsonlk
10-13-2008, 02:36 PM
This sort of ported setup should now pull a lot more flow than that did.

Port matching looks good, nice work.

I still don't see how port matching will increase the flow volume though.
Maybe, arguably, the 'smoothness, turbulence or swirl' improves.

Without increasing the SC drive speed, and increasing the diameter of the other bottle necks same\smaller than stock TB bore of 65mm, then how is more volumetric flow getting through the system by replacing a TB or MAF?

If you just replaced the MAF, no more air gets by the stock TB so the volume wouldn't increase this way alone either.

Not arguing a point but just trying to understand how this would differ from a water pipe, or electrical circuit. I know little about forced induction.

Gerry Rider
10-13-2008, 03:10 PM
It was my understanding from other threads that the TB was the greatest restriction in the inlet, followed by the MAF. I increased the TB to 75mm and the MAF to 76mm, then ported a '94/'95 style inlet plenum to match the TB and installed a '94/'95 blower. This would appear to be about as good as can be done. All stock, the blower wanted more air than the inlet could deliver (causing some cavitation at high boost levels). These changes should correct that.
Gerry

fturner
10-13-2008, 03:35 PM
The biggest restriction to start with is the MAF which is 55mm. I outflowed a stock MAF awhile ago and if I was still running it, it would be pegged. The 70mm stock MAF doesn't flow any better so its still a restriction. Second restriction then becomes the TB at 65mm. The inlet plenum is around 68mm internally at its worst point according to others.

I've now exceeded the capacity of the stock TB and when I put the 75mm back on I instantly gained another 50kg/h at 5500 rpm's so that shows that the inlet plenum can outflow the stock TB.

Also, if your relying on adaptive to fix your car, its time to get tune.

Frit

S_Mazza
10-13-2008, 04:23 PM
Port matching looks good, nice work.

I still don't see how port matching will increase the flow volume though.
Maybe, arguably, the 'smoothness, turbulence or swirl' improves.

...

Not arguing a point but just trying to understand how this would differ from a water pipe, or electrical circuit. I know little about forced induction.

Yes, the transitions in diameter do make a big difference. You will still get a pressure drop and some loss of flow, of course, but the losses will be minimized by using smooth transitions.

Gerry Rider
10-17-2008, 09:19 AM
I got it all together and drove it yesterday. (75mm TB, 76mm MAF, MAC CAI, KN filter, Gasket match ported inlet plenum, '94/'95 blower). Car runs very strong, scary quick for an old dude like me. Disconnected battery and let everything reset before starting the adaptive learning process again. Idle seems fine, a steady, repeatable 800-900RPM. Boost gage approaches 15lb. There is a miss under high boost levels, feels like ignition although plugs and 8mm wires are near new. No way to get a tune without going to the local Dealer, I don't have an EEC tuner. Overall quite happy with mods.
Gerry

Delaware SC
06-11-2013, 09:23 PM
Wow this thread is a few years old but was very helpful.

Installed PP 75mm throttle body, C&L 76mm MAF, SCP 3" intake, 42 lb Bosch injectors, and 255 lph fuel pump. Chased the TPS adjustment for awhile due to hanging idle however it was exactly on the mark.

A few months ago started driving SC daily and using air when weather warmed up recently. Damned thing was stalling in traffic while at idle with air on. Idle would decrease when air was turned on rather than increase. Oh, also installed a new IAC on new TB and have been getting vacuum of 20 so not any vacuum leaks. Without much thought I adjusted the throttle stop screw to increase idle a little. It stopped stalling but idle was really high with air off. Idle went berserk and would even search from almost 2000 down to 1000 and then back up again. Really obnoxious.

Tonight I removed the intake tube to observe throttle, backed the stop screw all the way out, disconnected the battery and harness to IAC. Just like Rick said the throttle was sticking a little when butterfly was up against throttle body. Reinstalled intake tube, reconnected battery, and started it up with harness to IAC still disconnected like set up technique posted by S Mazza. It idled a little rough for awhile drooping down as low as 500 rpm sometimes but with a very small turn on the stop screw it settled at 700-800 rpm real nice. Wasn't sticking either. I shut it down and reconnected IAC. After starting the idle initially surged to about 2000 but only for a second. Came down much quicker than it had been doing. After running for awhile I turned on the air and for the first time in years the idle increased initially when compressor clutch engaged.

I jacked it up turning the idle stop screw cause it isn't an idle screw. It only needs turned in enough to keep butterfly from sticking. This technique of adaptive relearning to idle with IAC disconnected seems to work great.

Future plans to upgrade with MPx SC case and matching intake plenum because 75mm TB is much larger than OEM intake plenum.