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Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 12:37 AM
Greetings fellow SC guys,

This forum has been a huge help, as I'm new to the SC. You've all been a tremendous resource so far, so much so that I decided to become a member. Thanks.

My white '93 auto is my first SC, and I think it's got the potential to be great. My overall impression of the vehicle is that it has great off-idle torque, I love the shape, and the fact that it has an IRS. I've loved the MN12 T-bird since it was new, but I have a few issues with the vehicle.

I did the head gaskets when I bought the car, and I just finished rewiring the starter circuit, complete with new starter. Also, I installed a new power steering pump with Aeroquip stainless Teflon braided pressure hose and return line (If I EVER get hold of the crackhead who designed the PS system...) for a nice, sanitary hydraulic circuit.

My question is: Given the overall complexity and temperamental (Read: half-engineered) nature of the 3.8 SC V6, should I continue efforts on this engine, or do a heart transplant?

You know, a powertrain that doesn't require constant handholding, as I don't want to be under the car all winter. My easiest options are 4.6 SOHC, 4.6 DOHC, or a 5.0.

I've also been considering few hybridized drivetrains:

Ford 6.8 Triton V10 + T56
GM Vortec 4200 I6 + T45/56
Nissan RB26DETT 5-speed
Toyota 1JZ-GTE/2JZ-GTE 5-speed

No, I'm not joking.

Opinions?

I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks.

PReDiTR91
09-09-2008, 01:03 AM
Ditching the SC 3.8 is kinda taboo around here but I say go for it! Just as long as its a Ford based motor!

Flex
09-09-2008, 01:21 AM
It's not an SC if you ditch the SC'd power plant.

You have already done the major issue with the motor, i.e. hg's. If you used a good modern gasket and hopefully studs, the engine should be trouble free for years.

Minor problems like the DIS burning up don't occur often and aren't that costly. All engines have their quirks.

KMT
09-09-2008, 02:24 AM
The DOHC is a good idea, but you might as well tank the SC, get a Mark VIII LSC (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/366137) (improved driveshaft, bigger brakes, HID; air leveling/IRS; 4-cam, etc.) and be done...

http://www.lincolnsclub.org/rides/mark_viii97_lscstock/images/12.jpg

racecougar
09-09-2008, 07:17 AM
It may be taboo, but I'm very happy with how mine turned out.

Plan on doing plenty of wiring.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 07:24 PM
In response to Flex, yeah, I used the ARP 153-4001 studs with the Fel-Pro 9642PT-1 gaskets, but the outboard studs were too long. My stock manifolds are thus running without lower bolts, but so far, it hasn't been a problem.

I'm somewhat confused about the 3.8SC engine. On the one hand, SCCOA members sing its praises as a tough, reliable powerplant that gives years of troublefree service, even under high-level modifications. On the other hand, I constantly read about snapped cranks, banana'd rods, disintegrating pistons, and the ever-popular wiped-out rod and main bearings.

What gives?

Is the 3.8SC truly "a bomb that could go off any second, or maybe never?" Or are we talking about guys who post entries about the above catastrophies, but neglect to mention that the failures occurred in the wake of a steady diet of 5000-RPM-clutch-dumps, redline-neutral-drops, and/or that infamous Saturday night experiment with the 300 shot o' NOS?

I realize that SCCOA is a performance-oriented group, and believe me, I have killed my fair share of cars with my overly heavy right foot (Fragged Third and Fifth gears in my '96 Crown Vic 5-speed conversion). But first and foremost, this is my daily driver and I need it to be a dependable car FIRST.

I like the idea of a boosted V6, and when I did the head gaskets, I thought there was just something cool about the way the engine looked in the chassis, aesthetic and inelegant nightmare that it may be. I'd very much like to keep my car 3.8SC powered, but not if that choice will leave me walking.

In case you ask, no, I don't know how long the previous owner drove the car after he blew the H-gasket, or how well it has been maintained, but my guess is, "not as well as can be hoped."

Oh yeah, how long can the stock bushings be expected to last? I'm getting some fairly dramatic clunking over manhole covers and other pavement irregularities.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

"Freedom in a mechanized society requires three elements: Will, Weapons, and Wheels."

Mike8675309
09-09-2008, 08:40 PM
...
I'm somewhat confused about the 3.8SC engine. On the one hand, SCCOA members sing its praises as a tough, reliable powerplant that gives years of troublefree service, even under high-level modifications. On the other hand, I constantly read about snapped cranks, banana'd rods, disintegrating pistons, and the ever-popular wiped-out rod and main bearings.


The motor is reliable. Damaged cranks I've seen over the last year have been due to improper repairs or catastrophic failure of the harmonic balancer. Motors with bolt-ons increasing boost, increasing heat, and failed cooling systems will lead to increased opportunity for detonation. Detonation leads to piston failure, failed head gaskets, and or bent rods.

The SC has always been a sporty car, so many that you find likely, at some point in their life, been ridden hard and put to sleep wet.

The problem is that if you can't work on these cars, finding competent mechanics is a challenge. The engine compartment packaging is very tight, with most mechanics wanting nothing to do with it. Add the Distributorless ignition system that requires some specialized knowledge to trouble shoot, and you have a car that can be quite frustrating to own for some folks.

The Lincoln Mark VIII isn't much better, other than the motor is more common.

Flex
09-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Ditch the crappy stock exhaust system and install a better fuel pump and you will eliminate most of what can tank the 3.8 SC should you choose to go for more boost as Mike points out.

To this later add 36 or even 42 lb injectors and the motor will be a lot less susceptible to knock and catastrophic failure. These parts can be picked up cheap if you want to wait a bit to collect them all. You could also put a fan on the intercooler to reduce IACT's for more power and less chance of the dreaded d word.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 09:02 PM
I understand the idea of "ridden hard and put away wet," but other cars don't have this laundry list of problems. I'm simply concerned that one of the rotator bearings is gonna let go at some inopportune time without warning.

The factory balancer/crank sensor group is problematic. Okay, can the 3.8SC engine run based on inputs from 3.8NA parts? Or from a 4.6? Or a 5.0?

I'm not necessarily trying to do things on the cheap here, but the potential for catastrophic (and very inconvenient) major parts failure seems way too high not to try to reengineer the touchier componentry.

What do you think?

KMT
09-09-2008, 09:24 PM
>I'm not necessarily trying to do things on the cheap here

Have you thought about simply flipping a coin...while you still have a few left...?

Ok, so you don't want to step in a hole - fair enough. But you know, the only safe way to avoid doing that is to not leave the porch.

And you're looking for that magic approach to something, that seems to have eluded others... Eureka moments are few and far between when it comes to the SC.

While it seems true that to keep the average SC on the road you either need to come to know them well, or know someone who does, any car suffers when abused - and any car is a bundle of trade-offs at the end of the day.

The fact is, these cars are pushing two decades of service, and when you hear owners complain that fixing one thing always seems to lead to another, it is easy to wonder if they are worth the trouble, time and expense. And those are questions only you can answer.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 09:37 PM
Fair enough, KMT. You're quite right. That WAS beginning to sound like whining on my part.

I DO like my SC, or I wouldn't have fixed it at all. And it really is satisfying, though; figuring out how to make your car into the vehicle you think it should be. That is, after all, the essence of hot rodding.

I'm going to stick to my original plan: Nurse the 3.8 along until I can get a 4.6 DOHC/T56 into it. And then build the 3.8 into something INTERESTING... If that's blasphemy, then send Torquemada to come and get me!

It's good to know that if I should need to ask for advice, I have such a knowledgable group to consult.

Stupid Canuck
09-09-2008, 09:54 PM
http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/pts/832449024.html

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/pts/831767146.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MUSTANG-SHELBY-500-COBRA-SUPERCHARGED-5-4-ENGINE-TRANS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ025QQit emZ380060057003QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-parts-accessories-PI-heads-cams-intake-saleen-supercharger-4-6-long-block-W0QQAdIdZ67951438

You can probably forget about the stock AOD too.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the leads. I've looked for complete 4.6 DOHC/trannies, and have come to the conclusion that I should simply lift the powertrain from a '96 or '97 Mark VIII. Same forged longblock as the non-Terminator Cobra, and it can be an evolutionary project: Slushbox first, just to get it mechanically installed, then go from there. Hope the Mark VIII instrument cluster fits...

XR7 Dave
09-09-2008, 10:20 PM
First off, I would just say that swapping a 4.6 of any sort is wayyyyy more work than properly maintaining your 3.8. I've seen many SC's go under the knife for a supposed "killer upgrade" and not come out with any kind of a beating heart. The few who have done it spent a LOT of time figuring things out and in the end many aren't any further ahead than they could have been with the V6. There are some notable exceptions but just ask how much they spent and how much work it was....

I speak from experience when I say that the SC is reliable enough. I've owned one since 1990 and now with over 200K miles still find it entirely reliable enough for both daily driving and cross country trips. And yes, mine has seen PLENTY of modifications over the years. But if you feel that the car is a ticking time bomb with things that you should have already replaced but haven't, then you can hardly blame the car. If the car hasn't been maintained then the engine really isn't your biggest worry anyway. Parts break for a reason, and there are plenty of 4.6's out there with broken parts.

If you want the V8 and don't want the hassle then do what was suggested above and just go buy a Mark Viii. Like I said, maintaining your 3.8 is less hassle and/or expense than swapping out a complete drivetrain. If you want to do it to be different or cool, then by all means go ahead, but if you think doing the swap is going to create an easy way out then you are sadly mistaken.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 11:00 PM
Like how involved?

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I may well be, but isn't the DOHC swap essentially home-manufacturing a production T-bird LX, but with a four-valve top end and PCM? Why not get all the 4.6-specific parts from a '96 or '97? I'm serious; I want to know if I'm not thinking this through properly.

It certainly would be easier to keep the 3.8 in the car, and do one system at a time until I decide I'm done. Right now, as a reliability measure, I'm doing the sensors one at a time. I know they're not all bad, or even on the verge of quitting, but walking to work through ONE Chicago winter was enough fun, thanks.

As I mentioned, I've already replumbed the power steering system (two feet of Aeroquip Teflon line, and a foot of Goodyear fuel injection hose) and rewired the starter circuit with revitalized/new cables/grounds and a new starter. All the new connections are holding nicely.

The vehicle drives very well, and for right now is strictly a daily driver. Dreaming aside, I think the next upgrade would be to simplify the heater hose routing so it just plugs into the engine as directly as possible, instead of meandering around the bay like some drunken frat boy on a bender. Yeah, I know it does that to cool the oil, but a remote cooler/filter relocator will take care of that.

XxSlowpokexX
09-09-2008, 11:23 PM
Keep in mind you are dealing with an old car that may have been neglected in its past. SUperchargers plus neglect = no good .

Motor wise the SC engine is pretty stout. It can easily handle upgraded power levels. What it doesnt do well nor does any unaturally aspirated engine is handle detonation. Ive yet to blow a headgasket however that is a weak spot on this engine. The engine as a whole however is not.

To put things in perspective. How much money do you think it will take to get a two valve 4.6 over 300rwhp. Ill tell you. Allot. A stock PI motor with about 5psi netted me close to 310rwhp (I dont even remeber the exact number anymore)With the SC..Well not so much. Plus a heck of allot less work. STock sc shortblock, bigger IC, home ported blower, ported stock size valve heads and a 520 cam. A tad bit more then that dynoing at close to 320rwhp. Stock 4.6+boost ...No likey. I blew two of em up.

The v10 is an unbalanced low revving ~~~. Yes it has a cool factor as I did much research into it. Just a bad design. basically a poorly balanced 5.4 with two extra cylinders.

If you want a supra or a GM..I suggest ay just buy [email protected]

My quick thoughts..Gotta jet

Weve been through this topic many times and teh cheap and easy way into the 300rwhp range is stick with the 3.8..If you want 400 plus...then I say go look for a v8..PArts to make our lil v6 make 400 plus are out there but not readily available and custom made to say the least....

Or if you o turbo on teh 3.8......Yah Id do that

boooster
09-09-2008, 11:29 PM
the 4v bottom ends were not forged. the cobras got the forged crank but the mark 8s got the cast crank. either crank is fine under 600hp however both the cobras and mark bottom ends got the same weak crack capped rods and weak hyperucraptic pistons. the only modulars that have forged internals from factory and ones that had a supercharger strapped on top.

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 11:44 PM
Okay, let's say I decide to get another 3.8SC engine and build it PROPERLY. I mean Super Six forged rotator kit, Morana stud girdle and windage tray, bored/align honed/decked, MLS gaskets, and a nice ported top end.

HOW HARD CAN I LEAN ON THIS THING?

Had-a-bad-day-at-work hard?

Can't-afford-to-get-another-ticket hard?

Hey-y'all-watch-this hard?

How close to indestructible are we talking about here?

Nevada1906
09-09-2008, 11:52 PM
You're right Booster. I rechecked my source material. The early Mark VIII had the Teksid BLOCK, but unfortunately stuffed with the cast crank. Still a good foundation for a build.

fturner
09-10-2008, 08:56 AM
The other point that has to be considered for the engine is tuning it properly when you mod it.

There's alot of folks around here that will tell you that slapping in a big MAF, putting in some 42# injectors, big TB and other mods on the car doesn't require a tune because the computer will compensate. It can only compensate so far and 42# injectors will push over that limit, and thats only when the car runs in close loop NOT at WOT etc. Spark is also totally wacked out and will lead to detonation. Those folks are just asking for trouble and eventual engine failure.

There's alot of folks like Dave Dalke and others that have alot of experience with these cars and if you do the job right you'll have a good solid motor. Don't short cut on things like tuning etc.

Of course this applies to any other motor as well.

Frit

1MTNCAT
09-10-2008, 10:40 AM
Keep in mind you are dealing with an old car that may have been neglected in its past. SUperchargers plus neglect = no good .

Motor wise the SC engine is pretty stout. It can easily handle upgraded power levels. What it doesnt do well nor does any unaturally aspirated engine is handle detonation. Ive yet to blow a headgasket however that is a weak spot on this engine. The engine as a whole however is not.

To put things in perspective. How much money do you think it will take to get a two valve 4.6 over 300rwhp. Ill tell you. Allot. A stock PI motor with about 5psi netted me close to 310rwhp (I dont even remeber the exact number anymore)With the SC..Well not so much. Plus a heck of allot less work. STock sc shortblock, bigger IC, home ported blower, ported stock size valve heads and a 520 cam. A tad bit more then that dynoing at close to 320rwhp. Stock 4.6+boost ...No likey. I blew two of em up.

Weve been through this topic many times and teh cheap and easy way into the 300rwhp range is stick with the 3.8..If you want 400 plus...then I say go look for a v8


I normally don 't chime in on these topics but I will this time.

Since you have the SC it would be far less work to upgrade as needed on that car than to do the swap. But if its the swap you want it can surely be done with enough time and money.

I also choose to disagree with Damon. I have run a stock bottom end 4.6 forever (over 12 years) and made over 350+ HP/500+ lb ft with very little money and run down in the 11's a few times. A simple stock 4.6L with bolt ons and nitrous power adder. Its still got all the toys, full weight and street driven. I can and have driven it everywhere. With the same bolt-ons on motor alone NA the car has gone 13.20's @ over 104 MPH. I don't have a fortune in the car just bolt ons (No porting, no nothing). There are plenty of PI swapped MN12's that run down there or are capable of it. I don't have to prove it cause many over the years have seen it. So the question is how much does it cost to do a 3.8 SC to get down to that level and what would it cost for the swap to get what you want? Those are the questions you need to ask yourself.

None the less, there is power available with whichever you choose to do. I've got a lot of friends with SC's and are quite happy with them. I've seen the headaches and the plus's of the cars. I also know pretty much whats out there on the V8 Side.

BOTTOM LINE IS ---- ITS ALL ONES PREFERANCE and ability to do what needs done. And they all need maintenance regardless of what you choose.

More time on the road and less in the garage and on the Jackstands should be the ultimate goal, whichever route that will take.

Just my .02 cents.

XR7 Dave
09-10-2008, 10:54 AM
Okay, let's say I decide to get another 3.8SC engine and build it PROPERLY. I mean Super Six forged rotator kit, Morana stud girdle and windage tray, bored/align honed/decked, MLS gaskets, and a nice ported top end.

HOW HARD CAN I LEAN ON THIS THING?

Had-a-bad-day-at-work hard?

Can't-afford-to-get-another-ticket hard?

Hey-y'all-watch-this hard?

How close to indestructible are we talking about here?

If you have to ask these questions then maybe you should just buy a new car. You are focusing on the wrong things and just asking for trouble.

boooster
09-10-2008, 12:17 PM
i would say turn up the boost on the blower a little then add bolt ons for tuning such as maf and injectors a bigger throttle..... exhaust trans and rear gears and youll probally be happy with it. then IF the motor gives replace it with a built 3.8. Why ditch the good running 3.8 for a 4.6 when the 3.8 still is alive. I could see ditching the 3.8 if you already blew it up bu theres alot of room for growth. Or if you want to go even bigger read up on getting built or building a turbo kit and ditching the blower which will also lessen the stress on the balancer and internals and will be able to be more adjustable when it comes time to turning up the boost. Also upgrading stuff on the 3.8 will be able to be done in a weekend vs a swap that will take months or sometimes years. On a nice sunny day would you rather be driving a powerful sc or in the driveway under the car tryiong to figure out how all the other motor goes together

superbirdx
09-10-2008, 07:24 PM
I understand the idea of "ridden hard and put away wet," but other cars don't have this laundry list of problems. I'm simply concerned that one of the rotator bearings is gonna let go at some inopportune time without warning.

The factory balancer/crank sensor group is problematic. Okay, can the 3.8SC engine run based on inputs from 3.8NA parts? Or from a 4.6? Or a 5.0?

I'm not necessarily trying to do things on the cheap here, but the potential for catastrophic (and very inconvenient) major parts failure seems way too high not to try to reengineer the touchier componentry.

What do you think?
I personally think that other cars have plenty of issues they just aren't so well documented.Another thing you have to realize is that most people post about problems and not so much about how great their vehicle runs.Also most people looking at a site like this tend to gravitate to the problem section and not so much to the racing section.For the most part a 3.8sc is a more durable engine than a 5.0 unless you do lots of upgrades to the 5.0 as well.The head gaskets are an issue that happen on lots of vehicles also.If you do some of the proper fixes on the 3.8 sc they won't be an issue again.I've had 2 SC's that went over 115,000 miles on the original head gaskets.One of them had lots of mods the other only had a few.

Nevada1906
09-10-2008, 08:04 PM
It happens. You buy an interesting car of a type you've never had any experience with, go visit a website devoted to said vehicle that's crammed solid with all sorts of horror stories, and naturally wonder if you're next.

Mine's completely stock, and there's no evidence of it ever having been modified, so I'm probably just being overly cautious. If I understand you all correctly, problems don't actually occur with these engines until you modify something either INCORRECTLY or INCOMPLETELY.

KMT
09-10-2008, 09:40 PM
>...go visit a website devoted to said vehicle that's crammed solid with all sorts of horror stories

Far from definitive, this little poll (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98736&highlight=daily) may still help shed a bit of light on that statement. In addition, there are bound to be x number of satisfied soles motoring happily along that don't even know this site exists.

Also, as you query about engine/trans swaps, please try to differentiate between 'daily driver' horror stories and 'franken-mobile' horror stories :eek:

XxSlowpokexX
09-10-2008, 11:54 PM
I also choose to disagree with Damon

I own both a pi powered Tbird as well as an SC or three so I'm not completely talking out of my butt. I do agree partially with you. A properly tuned pI motor with Nitrous (which is generally used under controlled conditions) can run very well and last. This is ery much UNLIKE a supercharger which the power is just a footsmash away. Hot days, bad gas, ....detonation....You risk that ona daily basis..And the cast 4.6 pistons are absolute junk. After going through two PI motors I built a good bottom end...I rully believe what everyone told me when I said.."NAHHHHHH cant be that bad..."And with nitrous...The power isnt always there and when it is,,,,Its costin ya!.. Because of that nitrous isnt for everyone. I been there done that..Love it..But an SC is SOOOOOO MUCH MORE FUN be it a v8 or v6.

Now lets say you have a stock well running 3.8 SC...I have seen those stock with nitrous basically in the 12's Kind of on par with a safely juiced stock 4.6 Pi motor. The combo of boost and nitrous does wonders for the SC.

As has been mentioned tuning will be key whatever you deciede to do...

With that being said.

If you had a 4.6 bird... I'd say ..Go get an aluminum blocked explorer motor, swap it in and have fun. If you wanted to play with boost or even nitrous later on Id still reccomend getting some good rods and pistons. Regardless of what anyone tells me. Ive witnessed to many engine failures due to cracking piston ringlands.

Being you have a 3.8 SC. Id say have fun with that. It really doesnt take much to dip into the 12's on an even a high mile shortblock. And 12's are nice. Add some nitrous to that and you can hit an 11. Of course at a min I ALWAYS reccomend doing head gaskets and ARP studs if you plan on driving enthusiastically. WHo know show many cycles of bad gas and detonation your cars experienced (or will)

If you are thinking I need more....Id say..Why exactly did you get a Tbird?:D

Whatever you do set a goal...(Me I say I am spending this amount of $$$ and thats it) Power will be what it will be...Just spend that $$ wisely to get the best bang for your buck...And thats what we are here for

Nevada1906
09-11-2008, 12:14 AM
All this advice has been very helpful. The engine swap can wait until/unless I blow this one up, and if that happens, I'll do another 3.8SC.

Guess I'll start saving for the exhaust. Wonder how zoomies would look...

1MTNCAT
09-11-2008, 02:23 AM
I own both a pi powered Tbird as well as an SC or three so I'm not completely talking out of my butt. I do agree partially with you. A properly tuned pI motor with Nitrous (which is generally used under controlled conditions) can run very well and last. This is ery much UNLIKE a supercharger which the power is just a footsmash away.

And the cast 4.6 pistons are absolute junk. "And with nitrous...The power isnt always there and when it is,,,,Its costin ya!.. Because of that nitrous isnt for everyone. I been there done that..Love it..But an SC is SOOOOOO MUCH MORE FUN be it a v8 or v6.

Now lets say you have a stock well running 3.8 SC...I have seen those stock with nitrous basically in the 12's Kind of on par with a safely juiced stock 4.6 Pi motor. The combo of boost and nitrous does wonders for the SC.

If you had a 4.6 bird... I'd say ..Go get an aluminum blocked explorer motor, swap it in and have fun. If you wanted to play with boost or even nitrous later on Id still reccomend getting some good rods and pistons. Regardless of what anyone tells me. Ive witnessed to many engine failures due to cracking piston ringlands.

Being you have a 3.8 SC. Id say have fun with that. It really doesnt take much to dip into the 12's on an even a high mile shortblock. And 12's are nice. Add some nitrous to that and you can hit an 11. Of course at a min I ALWAYS reccomend doing head gaskets and ARP studs if you plan on driving enthusiastically.

Whatever you do set a goal...(Me I say I am spending this amount of $$$ and thats it) Power will be what it will be...Just spend that $$ wisely to get the best bang for your buck...And thats what we are here for

__________________________________________________ ______________

Damon, I never said you were talking out your butt. But I agree to disagree with some of your statements, Thats all.:)

I for one, really think as I previously posted, that he should stay with the 3.8 SC. From the looks of it he probably will and thats fine. Again, I've seen many nice builds on those cars and they run well. Some of your other comments I do disagree with.

A properly tuned PI 4.6L motor on the juice can last. But as you brought up and we all know the pistons are subject failure. I, just a couple weeks ago, had mine FINALLY let go. Haven't pulled it down yet but I'm sure the Ringlands are gone. But I knew it would happen sooner or later. I mean, look how long I've been running it on the juice & NA! I probably put more passes on the car in a year than MOST here, (SC or otherwise) have put on theirs in 10! Its still driven about 5K miles a year too. A Couple of weeks ago for instance, I made 24 passes in a 4 hour track session, 7 on juice and the rest NA. As far as power, there is as much stock power, if not more, on a PI engine as there is any stock SC. Just a fact. You forget I'm around a whole lot of SC's on our forums. I know what they do run stock, I know what the modded ones run, and I run against/with a whole lot of them every year. I won't say they aren't out there cause there's often things that you don't see, but I can't say I've ever seen a STOCK SC with juice run 12's. I've seen modded ones with all the typical bolt 0ns, smaller pulleys, upgraded SC's and or nitrous run it but not stock ones. I've also seen STOCK NPI 4.6's with juice run high 12's. Mine was one of them when it wasn't a PI motor.

You are certainly correct in the fact that if you plan to run a power adder and make significant power with either engine you need to have the supporting parts to compliment the build and make the engines last. Whichever way he decides to go he does need to do that when the time comes. Just as I'm going to have too!:)

There is good and bad in both, no doubt. But in this instance I would certainly stay the SC route with the car if I were him. But I'm not him so its up to him to decide.

It can be wicked whichever way he decides to go.

Hope to see you at the shootout!