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NEEDaSCbad
10-09-2008, 12:42 AM
Alright, first forgive me lack of ability to search properly. I admit I suck at it, but I couldn't find much.

I need your help, I want to start building a motor to swap into my future bird. However I have a lot of questions that need answering before I buy a motor or go rip one outta the junk yard.

To start I was figuring I would use a 99-04 mustang 3.8 as the base of my build. Why? I don't know. I was told somewhere along the line in my previous research(3yrs ago) that this is the best 3.8 to build off of. have any of you heard this, why would that be?

2nd Would that engine be a direct bolt in to a SC...Meaning would I have to modify the car structurally in any way to accomadate this motor? Same casting?

3rd Will this motor bolt up to the 5spds that are in the SC's? will i need a different bellhousing?

I guess the rest of my questions rest on these questions, so we'll start here.

Lastly, please feel free to constructively criticize me. I'm here to learn not get me feelings hurt. so if i said something stupid, let me know, but please explain to me why i sounded stupid and educate me.

Thanks guys,
Seth

KMT
10-09-2008, 12:49 AM
Ford made many modifications to the 3.8 to adapt it for use in a supercharged configuration (http://www.sccoa.com/articles/everwonder.php).

The easiest path to a reliable rebuild (short of buying one that is already finished) is to start with a rebuildable 3.8 out of another Super Coupe.

What year is your car?

NEEDaSCbad
10-09-2008, 01:17 AM
I don't have a sc yet. I'm looking to build a pretty mean, yet streetable motor to swap in shortly after i buy the bird.

I guess i should tell you that my end goal is a twin turbo setup to produce around 600 hp/tq give or take 50. I'm not looking to be the nastiest thing on the street...just close to it:D it has to be my dd tho, otherwise i wouldn't do it. I don't want a race car, trailer queen. I want a legit street/strip car, and this is the setup i intend to acheive that with.

anyways that stuff all comes after we decide on which block to use.

now that link you provided talks about the difference between the THEN 3.8 and the changes made to the SC block. however i'm fairly certain that the later model 3.8's were changed quite a bit from the earlier one's. btw...i believe i was told the 99-04 blocks were the best bet by correspondance with tom morana.

EDIT: were the sc blocks forged?

Anyways i need the pro's and con's between the LATEST 3.8 and the SC blocks.

KMT
10-09-2008, 01:32 AM
Later models had improved intakes and s'chargers, yes. That's why I asked what year your car is - makes little diff if you don't have car or engine yet :) With at least a 1/2 dozen V6 variants out there, outside of maybe building a stroker, I think I'd shun them all in favor of a SMB vvvV8 & SWB chassis w/solid axle rear dif. That would make for a great compound-huffer.

Why don't you completely outline your goals & budget, then lay those out clearly, and maybe you can get some direction that won't change between now and when you finally pull the trigger on whatever it is you get around to building. Good luck with your project.

NEEDaSCbad
10-09-2008, 02:15 AM
I will be buying the engine SOON!!! Meaning december at the latest. I want to build it over the winter.

As far as budget goes, i haven't set a budget nor do I intend too. I'll spend what i can, when i can type-of-thing. I don't have a set goal to hit speed/ET wise either. I want to do this build to go fast, future bragging rights with my buddies, but most of all for my own enjoyment.

I guess it can best be outlined as the following:

600HP/TQ
Daily Driven (Reliable):cool:
Built as cheaply as possible, meaning I don't have to use the top of the line parts and i'm not against retrofitting parts from different vehicles/applications. I will spend the money on the things that really need it, but i will cut costs where i can without sacrificing a lot of quality/reliability.
This is more of my own Hot Rod project(read:money pit) i guess.:o

So anyways, what motor should i start with based on the questions in the first post and now having more info of what i'm shooting for?

eli66048
10-09-2008, 02:51 AM
I assume you're dead set on a T-Bird build.
Go with a 5.0L..... Bolts in a T-Bird and to the 5 spd trans.
The solid axle is a good idea.
If you want to make 600hp, you better buy good stuff.
I guess it depends on what you call "streetable".

Danny

NEEDaSCbad
10-09-2008, 02:57 AM
I assume you're dead set on a T-Bird build.
Go with a 5.0L..... Bolts in a T-Bird and to the 5 spd trans.
The solid axle is a good idea.
If you want to make 600hp, you better buy good stuff.
I guess it depends on what you call "streetable".

Danny

Yeah i'm pretty set on the t-bird. I want to build a v6, EVERYONE and their brother builds v8's. I really like the supercoupe's and that's the exact car i wanna build. Kinda set on it.

aplvlydrtybird
10-09-2008, 10:37 AM
600hp will cost you some serious coin. you will need either an AR kit, or a larger turbo application with forged internals and extensive head work

rzimmerl
10-09-2008, 11:24 AM
no one with an SC has made near 600 hp, I believe the highest is Ira R with ~ 475 RWHP. If you want 600hp you better just swap in a V8.

If you want a 400 RWHP SC plan on dropping some serious $$$~ $5000+...probably closer to $8000-10k if you figure a drivetrain to hold up also. It will take a lot top line parts, custom parts and regular maintenance also.

old_coot
10-09-2008, 12:52 PM
If you notice his original premise it was for a twin turbo V6 at the 600hp level---thats doable---and it can even be street driven---some---daily I doubt it---just to over the edge for a daily unless you have some pretty deep pockets. Another thing, anything over about 375 on street tires is just nuts and can get away from you in a hurry......If your goal is truly a daily driven--easily streetable and fun car thats not going to spend more time in the shop than on the street you need to bring the expectations down more around 400HP---thats about all the stock drivetrain can handle daily anyway---Did I hear bolt it to a five speed????? Fun, but hardly the quickest way to go with a turbo with the lag they have, true the twin smaller turbo will take that up some but its still there.
I have essentially the same goal for my 86 Buick Regal T-type but with an automatic and its not going to be a daily driver ever again.
I think the fords have much better heads than the buicks and are already set up for roller cams so you are one step up on me but mine only weighs 3400 pounds!!!!!! Just got to love it..................Dan

sinhumane
10-09-2008, 01:49 PM
matt neuharth (white95v6 on here, hope he chimes in) is making 600 hp with a single turbo-fed 4.3 stroker. car is street legal, and fully driveable to my knowledge, theres a MM&FF article on his car, somewhere...



EDIT: here it is http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/mmfp_0708_1995_ford_mustang_turbo_v6/index.html

fturner
10-09-2008, 02:47 PM
The SC 3.8L block is specific to the SC as it was built stronger etc than an N/A block. The stock SC crank is forged as are the rods The SC crank will not fit in an N/A 3.8 block of any year. The pistons are hypereuritic but most folks doing serious upgrades go to forged.

No one has really hit the limit of the SC bottom end. The blow ups you see are because of other issues like tuning problems etc.

Frit

Wzenheimer
10-09-2008, 03:00 PM
To answer your orginal question the SC block is by far one of the stoutest blocks that ford ever produced in the 3.8 engine family. With that said an engine block is a CASTING meaning is a mold that is cast in IRON (usually.) Ford has produced some castings in the past that were of HIGH NICKEL content to improve stregth, but to my knowledge there isn't a 3.8 family block that is a forging or a high nickel content block.

If it were me and I were doing it over again (actually I am on my 4th Generation SC) I would use an SC block with a 4.2 truck crank. Modifications to it would be Head Bolts, main bolts, maybe a girdle, definately H-Beam Rods, and forged pistons all balanced with a BHJ balancer and SFI flexplate/flywheel. Just those modifications alone will cost:

Engine Block: $50-100
Rods: $325
Pistons: $675
Crank: $225
Balancer: $350
Machining and Balancing: $650-1000

So far that is approx: $2675 and we haven't even talked about cylinder heads ($2000ish,) cams ($250,) turbos ($1200,) headers (~$500-1000,) and other various parts injectors, tuning software, roller rockers, blah blah blah. Plan to spend an easy $10k plus for a twin turbo setup. I think you would have better luck with a bigger single turbo and an appropriately sized AR for street spooling.

Oh and you said 600HP/TQ and I'm assuming your talking crankshaft which is totally doable and fairly easy assuming you take the right path. You'd be looking at 450ish at the wheels through a 5spd.

In all reality building the motor is the easy part, just make sure is durable enough to stand up to the punishment you plan to throw at it with boost. Just remember if you alter something it will almost always impact some other portion of the car. The more boost you make the more fuel you need to push for example the more fuel means bigger injectors which means bigger fuel pump....etc etc.

Good luck, keep up posted.

Chris

sinhumane
10-09-2008, 03:29 PM
right.. matt is running a stock sc block punched out, with forged bits, 4.2 truck crank, 83 lb/hr injectors (holy fuel, batman!) and 30 psi... with race gas, its 630-ish... 20psi and pump gas, 530... thats still incredible.. and he is running in the NINES. fastest v6 mustang... ever.

S_Mazza
10-09-2008, 04:44 PM
If you are buying a bare block and getting crank, rods, and pistons separately, then I think a 99-04 Mustang block would be just fine for you. The SC block is very good (I will not argue over which is better), but the real attraction is the SC CRANK, the ONLY forged crank available for the Ford 3.8. The Ford 4.2 truck crank is not forged, but it is much better than the typical cast cranks used in NA applications in the SC's day. (It's called nodular iron - the details are obscure, but it's better.) Now if you want to use the truck crank anyway, then why bother looking for a SC shortblock? Anyway, if you are using a turbo, you will probably get custom rods pistons, so your idea should be fine.

NEEDaSCbad
10-09-2008, 09:23 PM
Thanks guys, this is the kinda feedback i was lookin for. Wzenheimer, your post is the type of break down and info that i need. Old_coot, thanks for addressing my post, however i don't want to lower my expectations that much. i've seen some very streetable 600hp cars, crank that is. I know that the hp that matters is the hp at the wheels but i'm talking crank hp and tq. btw t-types are B.A. cars too! thats probably my buddies next build when he's done with his jeep. s_mazza, i will be building from a bare block, and it sounds like the 99-04 block is the way to go.

Now for a "noob" question....what the heck is an AR kit? I haven't heard of it.

What other websites do you guys suggest for v6 performance builds?

What companies have you guys had good results with, performance wise?

Anyone have a spare 3.8 block sittin around ya wanna give me?:D

oh yeah, i'm not swapping in a v8 either!;)

sinhumane
10-09-2008, 11:08 PM
delk performance, and supersixmotorsports, to name a couple

S_Mazza
10-10-2008, 09:38 AM
Now for a "noob" question....what the heck is an AR kit? I haven't heard of it.

What other websites do you guys suggest for v6 performance builds?

What companies have you guys had good results with, performance wise?


AR is AutoRotor. There are a number of custom Supercoupe builds that used an AutoRotor (screw-type) compressor instead of an Eaton blower, which increases top-end power.

A great source for 3.8 builds is XR7Dave (Dave Dalke) of Supercoupes Unlimited (no website). He can tell you what you need in a lot of cases. You can also look up Morana V6 Racing and ... I would have said to check rpm-mustang.com, but either they are gone or my link is broken.

DrFishbone
10-10-2008, 12:53 PM
Anyone have a spare 3.8 block sittin around ya wanna give me?:D

I've got an 89 SC short block that is very rebuildable that you can have for cheap if you come get it! :D

mannysc
10-10-2008, 01:21 PM
no matter what these guys say only has has done it ive seen it .

contact him he has the info you need .

http://www.norcal1320.com/forums/member.php?do=vehicledetails&userid=1919

David Neibert
10-10-2008, 02:49 PM
The easiest and cheapest thing to do is buy an SC and rebuild the motor that's in it. I don't think you need a 99-04 block.

David

old_coot
10-10-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm glad you restated your goal of 600 at the crank and you will note I said 400 meaning at the wheels so pretty close to the same---ask Dave Neibert about over 600 at the wheels and using it as a daily driver----scary to say the least, anyway best of luck and hope to see it at the spring meet or the shootout next year...............Dan

NEEDaSCbad
10-10-2008, 07:09 PM
I'm glad you restated your goal of 600 at the crank and you will note I said 400 meaning at the wheels so pretty close to the same---ask Dave Neibert about over 600 at the wheels and using it as a daily driver----scary to say the least, anyway best of luck and hope to see it at the spring meet or the shootout next year...............Dan

I don't think it was you but someone said 450 at the wheels is about what you would have with 600 hundred at the crank. thats a 25% drivetrain loss, isn't that a little excessive? I was always of the impression that you could expect about 12-15% drive train loss thru a manual and about 14-18% thru an auto, or the other way around. so 25% seems a little bit off. it doesn't really matter that much cuz either way it'd be fast but just wondering.

I do have a line on a 99-04 block with 22,000 on it. were there any problems with the late model 3.8's? i know the early 3.8's had the headgasket recall. not that it matters that much considering i'm gonna be rebuilding the whole thing but i was just curious. anyways i may be trading some car audio equipment for it straight up tomorrow.

Just curious, are there any t-56 swap kits for the mn12? That would be the tranny of choice if i could get it to fit.

Flex
10-10-2008, 07:48 PM
The main bearing caps in the SC block are considerably taller and thicker than their N/A counterparts. This alone is worth sticking with the SC block when you are attempting to make that kind of power.

NEEDaSCbad
10-12-2008, 12:17 AM
Well I had a slight change of plans this morning. Looks like I'm holding off on the motor build till the spring because I got the car tonight.

So I am now, for better or worse, a blown mn12 owner. I bought it off of a forum member here, actually traded it for my explorer. Its a 90 XR7 auto white on blue/grey with 150,000 on the clock. Completely superb rust free body! Now the reason I've gotta hold off on the engine build is because there's lots of little things I gotta fix including but not limited to;

Drivers door glass
Sway bar links
Tires
Passenger side lap belt
Driver shoulder belt
Passenger side regulator
Moonroof seal
Rotors and pads
Weather stripping(all of it including roof)
Cruise control
and a bunch of other stuff i don't remember off hand.

I'll post more details and pics later

Edit: forgot to mention that its a fully optioned car, including the CD player with the Jbl system. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that pretty rare?

sinhumane
10-12-2008, 02:41 AM
was it the auto xr7 in mo? hope to see pics soon:)

NEEDaSCbad
10-12-2008, 05:35 AM
was it the auto xr7 in mo? hope to see pics soon:)

Yes, down in Cape Gerardeau (sp?)

superbirdx
10-12-2008, 06:23 AM
www.supersixmotorsports.com They've got Kevin Leitem's car right on their homepage.you should check them out.

None2Slow
10-13-2008, 11:40 AM
Read this on supersix website. Hope it helps.

"2001-2004 3.8 block upgrade (best block ever made for the 3.8/4.2/SC)"