why did the monte carlo survive but not the mn12??

thunderstruck

Registered User
I walked past a late model monte carlo today that was black with silver around the bottom. My first thought was, "thats about what a modern day 35th anny would probably look like." It got me to thinking, how is it that the mn 12 was no longer considered viable, but yet the monte carlo has survived so much longer? I guess I dont know if they are still making them or not, but I think they still were in 05 anyway. Im sure someone on here knows. Why, with what I would consider to be a comparable car, did the thunderbird die?
 
I walked past a late model monte carlo today that was black with silver around the bottom. My first thought was, "thats about what a modern day 35th anny would probably look like." It got me to thinking, how is it that the mn 12 was no longer considered viable, but yet the monte carlo has survived so much longer? I guess I dont know if they are still making them or not, but I think they still were in 05 anyway. Im sure someone on here knows. Why, with what I would consider to be a comparable car, did the thunderbird die?

You're attempting to compare longevity of a name, not a chassis. How many years has the Thunderbird name been used? Longer than Monte Carlo to my knowledge...and as late as 2005.

The 'comparable' (?) RWD Monte Carlo died a long time ago. The one you saw is FWD.

As for why the MN12 died...weight, fuel mileage, falling demand, relatively high production costs, trend towards FWD/AWD. Some of the same things that killed the RWD Monte Carlo.
 
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Ford company representatives said it themselves in a video/interview. Lack of advertising and pushing of the pony was what inevitably killed the thunderbird. Ford knew the Supercoupe was faster and better than its beloved Pony, but, when you push a horse more than a bird, the bird has no choice but to fly the coupe.

This is one of those topics that has been discussed many of times. Do some searching, and you'll see. As far as comparing the Monte to the Bird, yeah, there are some striking resemblances within the styling and body lines. Keep in mind that the new style monte came after the bird was outta the picture. Coincidence? Probably not. But the newer monte's are crap. The newest SS V8 is descent, but lacks that in your seat umph that a RWD car can provide.
 
But the newer monte's are crap. The newest SS V8 is descent, but lacks that in your seat umph that a RWD car can provide.

I wouldn't buy one myself, but I don't know that I agree with this statement. There is at least one notorious SC (XR7 actually) owner around here sporting an 03 SS and he seems to think it does a pretty good job of replacing his SC(XR7) even with FWD.

To the original poster, if you look you'll see that the Bird died as a result of the demand for SUV's more than anything else. Ford used their Bird production capacity to make trucks and truck engines.

If there hadn't been a Mustang the Bird might have stayed perhaps, but you can't blame the Mustang for the loss of the Bird. They are two different markets, and the Mustang market is the much bigger of the two. Add to that the overlap between the two was - just - well - overlap. :rolleyes: I think Ford gambled that most Tbird owners could be shuffled into either a Lincoln (older, personal luxury crowd), a Taurus (nearly all of your LX buyers), or a Mustang (those who wanted an SC but couldn't afford one). The move to replace the Bird at NASCAR with the suppository shaped Taurus was the handwriting on the wall in 1996.
 
My freinds wifes monte has her front subframe come loose. Car also kept having drivetrain issues from new. Not all that great a car. The newer SS is still based on that same car my buddies wife had so I dont think it stuck around for quality reasons.

Also you just cant compare the SC to the Monte. Two totally different cars and markets...You could compare it more to the latest GTO if anything and we see how long that lasted.

For all the good the mn12 had they shortchanged it from day 1..And ultimately thats why it went by byes
 
I think thunderstrike is misunderstood..

I'm pretty sure he's aware of the FWD and RWD difference as well as the name Monte Carlo which is not as old (1970).

I think he was saying that the sleek two tone look on the new ones is as nice as the SC. I myself has been caught looking at them...usually in the rear view now haha..and I even priced out a 07 LS4 version. They are a really nice looking car for a bigger two door...just like our tanks.

I'm off that car now....I think I want a G8
 
how is it that the mn 12 was no longer considered viable, but yet the monte carlo has survived so much longer?

The MN12 is the Chassis Designation - 12th Generation Thunderbird - they built this one for 8 years, not bad considering they change the mustang every what .. 5 years ??

The MN12 was designed back in 83-86 .. that was 20 years ago !!!

When the 02 came out it was built on the DEW Platform .. still a Thunderbird though but Ford only planned for a limited production of these cars anyways.

Youre talking name badges though right, not chassis platform ?? Thats like asking, why did they stop making the Camaro, and why are they bringing it back again ???

Mn12 was destined to be phased out eventually as did the 11 previous generations of Thunderbird before it.

- Dan
 
I have an 06 Monte Carlo SS with 5.3v8 LS4. Yes it is front wheel drive, 06 and 07 SS models came with the v8. Completely stock they run around 14.0 to 13.9 quarter mile. I did a few bolt on mods to mine and got it down to a 13.0 at 107mph. Uses same heads as the corvettes/gto's. Basically I added 1.8 roller rockers, ported the intake manifold, better flowing exhaust, hand held tuner, and drag radials to pull off the 13.0's quarter mile times. I have recently added a Turbo kit to the car that easily pushes the wheel horsepower to around 500 at 10lbs of boost on a stock motor! I'm in the process of upgrading my transmission to handle the power. Pulls harder than my XR7 that ran high 11's. The Monte Carlo should run mid/low 11's once I'm done with the transmission. Car is a blast to drive and reliable! Motor has displacement on demand (DOD, knocks it down to 4 cylinders in overdrive) and I've gotten ove 30 mpg on long trips. Plus most of the LS aftermarket bolts on! I'll be adding some aftermarket heads this summer...Sleeper;)

DSC00054.jpg
 
platforms every few years would be updated , modified or bettered so to speak. More along the fox to sn95 line type changes. The mn12 really just continued along. If something like the fox to sn95 redesign was done to the mn12 platform many of th ebugs or problems inherent with th eoriginal design could have been phased out and something really good to come out of it. I have a feeling though the mn12 was a headache to Ford from day 1 an dne ver really got the attention it deserved. FOrd just wanted to ride it out as long as they could with minimal investment till it stopped selling.

Dam shame too
 
platforms every few years would be updated , modified or bettered so to speak. More along the fox to sn95 line type changes. The mn12 really just continued along. If something like the fox to sn95 redesign was done to the mn12 platform many of th ebugs or problems inherent with th eoriginal design could have been phased out and something really good to come out of it. I have a feeling though the mn12 was a headache to Ford from day 1 an dne ver really got the attention it deserved. FOrd just wanted to ride it out as long as they could with minimal investment till it stopped selling.

Dam shame too

Heck, the TBird SC MN12 platform introduced ALOT of new technologies that are being used today. Just think of where the MN12 TBird SC would be today if they continued it and advanced it :eek:.

Bye Bye pony car :p.

Fraser
 
I wouldn't buy one myself, but I don't know that I agree with this statement.

Well, when you work on a wide variety of cars, day in, day out, doin car a/v & security, you come to know what cars are built well and drive well, and which ones are junk. I've driven both normal and the SS Monte Carlo's, seats aren't comfy, and the handling is uck. I agree, I wouldn't buy one. But to each their own. I'm not sayin they don't have potential performance wise either, but its just a car I don't like. Electronics, interior, suspension, they just don't do it for me. They look good, especially lowered and kitted out, IMO anyways.

On another note, not tryin to hijack this thread. I really wish I could find that video interview with that blonde woman talking about the lack of advertising and sales in regards to the thunderbird. I know it was posted on the forums here a while back.
 
coming from a former FWD STSS racer....you will have all kinds of fun with that car but....traction and suspension are the keys to FWD drag racing

good luck :D
 
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The MN-12's many 'innovations' (?) caused it to miss two targets deemed critical by upper management: cost and weight.

"The Thunderbird and Cougar came in nearly $900.00 per car over their budgeted cost, enough to slash Ford's profit margin on each one sold by more than 30 percent. As for weight, the new models ran more than 250 pounds per car over target. Not a small matter, as this would result in higher fuel consumption, making it more difficult for Ford to meet federal fuel-economy standards.

In the end, the trouble with the MN-12 was that the project leader had been handed an impossible task: to build a BMW at the cost of a Ford. The celebration dinner following Motor Trend's Car of the Year award was cancelled. In March of 1989, Tony Kuchta, the man behind the MN-12, sought and was granted 'executive separation' (early retirement) - in May of 1989, Kuchta, ostracized by higher-ups, feeling like a leper and with a bonus cut by half, left Ford after thirty-two years at age fifty-eight."


A few of the MN-12's interesting innovations/specs:
- Odd-ball 5x4.25 wheel bolt pattern instead of the "standard" 5 x 4.5
- Molded, one-piece plastic fuel tank
- Headlight switch with integrated relay
- The Thunderbird's design was aggressively targeted at men - the Cougar received a more formal roofline, targeted at women.
 
Well since all there appears to be is negative innovations as pointed out, whats the point in even saying anything about the positive stuff that was leagues ahead of anything else :rolleyes:.

Fraser
 
I think the SS is a nice looking car. It always catches my eye at a light,so that say's something. Also like the engine w/ the heads but fwd, nah. Give it rwd and a 5spd and I would buy one immediatly!

Stephen
 
I think the SS is a nice looking car. It always catches my eye at a light,so that say's something. Also like the engine w/ the heads but fwd, nah. Give it rwd and a 5spd and I would buy one immediatly!

Stephen

I agree with you 100%. I believe FWD is a major drawback to the Monte Carlo SS and the Impala SS. The Pontiac G8 , V8 Mustangs and ALL the Hemi offerings from Dodge are more desirable cars for that reason alone.
Everyone is different though, and I say drive what you like.
 
>whats the point in even saying anything about the positive stuff that was leagues ahead of anything else

You said something about how "...the TBird SC MN12 platform introduced ALOT of new technologies"...we'd love to hear your take, in addition to the historians, pls.
 
I dont think it was by mistake the sc was motortrends car of the year. First mass produced eaton powered car, adjustable ride suspension, IRS, speed sensative steering just to name a few of the obvious. I think history dictates its a car that 20 years later (25 or so really since initial design) was a model for others to follow. It was a car designed to compete with the m6 bmw of the day.

History however will show that with any car with advanced electronic controls and new or relatively new mass production technologies that there were long term issues and usually the result of lack of knowledge or maintanance. I can make a list of $100,000 plus cars that fall under the same misunderstood catagory as the SC (and the SC was no 100,000 car)
 
>First mass produced eaton powered car, adjustable ride suspension, IRS, speed sensative steering just to name a few of the obvious.

Which of those were 'introduced' first by the MN-12 based SC?

SSS was patented internationally in 1982 by Ford, and in use in at least one example that pre-dated the MN-12 by four years....the Merkur XR4Ti. IRS was also on the Merkurs, both Scorpio and XR4Ti. A supercharged T-Bird was made in 1957. The 1987 Turbo Coupe had an automatic (or driver selected) adjustable shock absorber system that used electronically adjustable shocks.
 
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