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kylecoz88
04-25-2009, 02:46 PM
OK, so I took my í90 to the shop because it will start occasionally. By that I mean; it could start on the first try, or the 5th, I never know. I had them check the cam sensor and pull the codes. I got 67, 82, 88, 19. They thought the car was flooding because of all the black smoke that rolled from the exhaust from the combo of mods done to it.

There are some previous mods done to the car (not by me, I bought the car on Wed). Looks like a 76mm maf (cant tell what tube is in it, no color) 70mm throttle body, 42# injectors. Also, the part that the TB bolts to looks to be aftermarket, as it is a slightly different color, and it has a weld about 2.5Ē underneath the paint/powercoat. With the car I got a 1 ľ raised top that could have been on the car at one point because the nut on the regular top that is on now it pretty beat up.

One of the mechanics thought it was the maf that was messing things up. It could be if the sampling tube isnít matched to the injectors, right?

Anyways, the car runs great otherwise with a lot of power. It is just this darn starting problem that is driving me nuts. I donít want to be stranded somewhere if it wont start.

PS. I donít have any stock parts, what is on the car is all I have.

I hope we can resolve this.

Thanks guys:D,

Kyle

XR7 Dave
04-25-2009, 03:45 PM
Viewed from the TB side, the sample tube should be purple. If there is no color on it then you may need to measure it with a caliper.

Does the car have a chip? If not, you need one. I can't tell you for sure that not having a chip is your entire problem but it sure won't help things.

kylecoz88
04-25-2009, 03:52 PM
No color on the tube. I dont have a caliper, could I use drill bits to see what one fits (being careful of course). No, the car doesnt have a chip from what I can tell. But I might be interested in one after I get the starting problem fixed.

Or do you think my starting problem has something to do with not having a chip?

kylecoz88
04-30-2009, 10:25 PM
OK, I got the purple tube. How do I go about getting the computer to "learn" that it has the new sampling tube. I have the battery disconnected at the moment and will leave it that way overnight. Will driving it to work do the trick? It is about a 12 mile drive one way. What if that doesn't fix my problem? Lets hope I dont have to cross that road, but who knows...:o

sinhumane
05-03-2009, 01:13 PM
:)theres an article in the lit section on the front page, about the procedures for relearning your computer.

fturner
05-03-2009, 03:20 PM
Cranking fuel delivery is set by a fixed injector pulse width and nothing else. So when you start cranking, the computer sends a pulse width to the injectors to open them, and that pulse width is based on a 30# injector, so put a set of 42's on and your sending the same pulse width and you just put almost 29% more fuel in. Most stock cars are probably ok with it.

Only a chip can fix that. No amount of relearning etc will take that startup into account.

Fraser

kylecoz88
05-04-2009, 11:07 AM
OK, so I installed the purple tube and the computer has had time (about 150 miles) to learn. Problem is still there. After thinking back on it, the starting problem is more prominent when the car is warm. 1-3 tries when cold and 2-6 tries when warm. Now, do you think that itís time that the car NEEDS a chip? Can a chip change the parameters when cranking so I donít get so much fuel? What if I want to do some exhaust work and add a double IC? Should I do that before the chip?

Kyle

the-big-e
05-04-2009, 02:14 PM
It depends on how much moolah you want to spend.....:rolleyes:

Switching your injectors back to 30# might help, but then your 70mm TB and 76mm MAF might give you some problems.....:mad:

Getting a chip will definitely will help your situation.....:D

Just a thought, but don't you want to match the TB and MAF sizes.....:confused:

kylecoz88
05-04-2009, 02:17 PM
I bought the car exactlly the way it is (except the purple sampling tube). I know that I would have done it differentlly if I had done it.

90blkbrd
05-04-2009, 06:24 PM
Now, do you think that itís time that the car NEEDS a chip?

Have you checked for a chip yet?


then your 70mm TB and 76mm MAF might give you some problems

Why would the TB cause any problems? If he got a sampling tube for 30's and installed 30's, that combo wouldn't hurt anything.


Just a thought, but don't you want to match the TB and MAF sizes.....:confused:

You better ask that same question to at least 100 other members out there.

the-big-e
05-04-2009, 07:47 PM
I just asked the question because I had an SC come into my shop that was running rough under boost.....

The owner had a larger aftermarket MAF on it.....

I swapped an OEM one in its place and his SC ran a whole lot better.....

I am under the impression that you should match the MAF and TB as close as you can.....

Am I wrong......:confused:

The way I am reading this is he is running 42# injectors while the SCs computer thinks it still has the 30#s in it....

Tim Groth
05-04-2009, 07:59 PM
I just asked the question because I had an SC come into my shop that was running rough under boost.....

The owner had a larger aftermarket MAF on it.....

I swapped an OEM one in its place and his SC ran a whole lot better.....

I am under the impression that you should match the MAF and TB as close as you can.....

Am I wrong......:confused:

The way I am reading this is he is running 42# injectors while the SCs computer thinks it still has the 30#s in it....

I'm gonna take a stab here and say it would make sense to keep them the same size or close too for the purposes of air flow...Meaning why install a 90mm Maf and keep the stock 55m throttle body.

Outside of that I can't see any other purpose except bottlenecking the intake side of things.

As mentioned above, I would also suggest a chip to correct the rich issues...sure it has a lot to do with your troubles.

-Tim

90blkbrd
05-04-2009, 08:39 PM
I am under the impression that you should match the MAF and TB as close as you can.....


I agree. But having them this way doesn't cause the car to run bad.


The way I am reading this is he is running 42# injectors while the SCs computer thinks it still has the 30#s in it....


The 76 mm MAF with a purple sampling tube is supposed to tweak the voltage reading from the MAF so that the computer compensates for the 42's.

IMO anytime someone changes injector size or MAF they should have the car tuned.

kylecoz88
05-04-2009, 08:52 PM
no chip, see pic. Also there is a spliced wire in the engine compartment (again, see pic). It is a bare wire with no coating. I think I saw this wire grounded by the computer??? I also have a pic of my inlet plentum. Take a look.

Seems like it is chip time. Do I contact XR7Dave with a list of my mods?

fturner
05-04-2009, 09:16 PM
I agree. But having them this way doesn't cause the car to run bad.




The 76 mm MAF with a purple sampling tube is supposed to tweak the voltage reading from the MAF so that the computer compensates for the 42's.

IMO anytime someone changes injector size or MAF they should have the car tuned.

The MAF does like you said BUT not at startup when cranking. The MAF voltage has nothing to do with injectors during this mode so there is no compensation. It is like I described above. He's getting 29% more fuel per injector pulse when starting.

Fraser

QuickMustang
05-04-2009, 10:23 PM
no chip, see pic. Also there is a spliced wire in the engine compartment (again, see pic). It is a bare wire with no coating. I think I saw this wire grounded by the computer??? I also have a pic of my inlet plentum. Take a look.

Seems like it is chip time. Do I contact XR7Dave with a list of my mods?

Either buy a chip from Dave or Fraser, or do the fun thing and buy a quarterhorse and learn to tune on your own. It's not as hard as you would think, but it's not easy...I think either Dave or Fraser could still set you up with a base tune with the quarterhorse...It's also probably more expensive, but it's worth it in my opinion....

XR7 Dave
05-04-2009, 11:02 PM
It looks like you may have a rather modified inlet plenum and blower as they seem to match color to each other but not the rest of the parts. If it were me I'd be curious enough to take them off and open it up to see. It may be one of the early ESM systems.

But more to the point you have a code for a bad cam sensor. If you did not replace that already, do so now. Also, a chip would be a very smart idea at this point.

kylecoz88
05-05-2009, 04:56 PM
I just looked through the old receipts that the car came with and I found. crank sensor, cam sensor, harmonic balancer puller, starter selinoid, starter and a bunch more stuff that doesn't apply to the starting problem. All of that stuff was new within the last two years. So I will assume that nobody has been able to fugure this out.

Also, my tach doesnt work - is that directly a result from a bad cam sensor? (the previous owner had replaced it) or could it be in the wiring?

I will try to replace the cam sensor to see if that takes care of the code.

Dave you were right. Check out the warranty card that was with all the receipts.

kylecoz88
05-06-2009, 11:03 AM
I replaced the cam sensor and took a pic underneath it. Is it alligned correctlly? How it is in the pic is how it was when I took the sensor off and I don't know how to adjust it, so I just put the new one on.

Anyways, the starting problem is exactlly the same. I'll run to AutoZone and see if they will pull codes for me.

(EDIT)

Code results (KOEO)
82
88
19 - No power to EEC processor or failure in PCM internal voltage??

Also, my tach still doesnt work. I though the cam sensor might have fixed it :(

the-big-e
05-06-2009, 01:10 PM
Has the DIS module been changed....

It's the gray module on top of the jack shaft bracket and near the A/C compressor.....

kylecoz88
05-06-2009, 02:17 PM
DIS has not been changed yet. I am in the process of getting my hands on two used ones.

kylecoz88
05-11-2009, 04:56 PM
little updte: I am still waiting for the DIS to be shipped from a fellow SC owner from the site.

Also, I found that my low speed fan doesnt work and that my high speed fan is wired to be ON ALL THE TIME. I did not do this and I know it cant be good for the fan motor. But since the low speed is already shot the prevoius owner must have done this in a pinch not to overheat. Any advice on changing the fan motor?

Could the starting problem be a result of the high speed fan being on all the time? I.E. the computer thinks the car is always hot?

kylecoz88
05-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Changed the DIS and still have the same problem...

kylecoz88
05-21-2009, 11:45 AM
Swapped out the fan with one from a '93 Taurus. I now have low speed fan, but the previous owner clipped the wire to have the fan on all the time. Is it best to have that wire connected in stock form if I am hopefuly planning to get a chip? Do I solder it back together(never dont it before)? Or will I have to add a little length of wire in between to get it connected again?

Or should I just leave it alone???

kylecoz88
08-04-2009, 03:53 PM
I got my car back from paint and installed a chip from Dave with a base tune on it. It cleared up the starting problem about 90%! AND I can stop at a gas station while warmed up and actually have it fire up for me.

Eazy Peazy.

EDIT: I must have gotten lucky on a bunch of consutive starting attempts. I still have the same problem.

90blkbrd
08-04-2009, 06:28 PM
I got my car back from paint and installed a chip from Dave with a base tune on it. It cleared up the starting problem about 90%! AND I can stop at a gas station while warmed up and actually have it fire up for me.

Eazy Peazy.

Did Dave set your fan speeds for 180 degree thermostat? If yes, do you have a 180 degree installed? Once you have all of that the same I'd solder the wire back together and see how it goes. If you need help or tools, I can help.

kylecoz88
08-04-2009, 07:02 PM
From what I recall the fan was set to 195 (I have an original t-stat to my knowledge). At the moment I still have the wire clipped to run the fan all the time, I haven’t had time to take my "custom" air box off yet and dive into the IRCM. If you are willing I might take you up on your offer. I know I will need a little help to solder that wire back together. I have no experience there, and the space is so limited that I don’t want to mess anything up.

You wouldn’t have any extra IC fan would ya? :D That might be a project down the road when funds become plentiful - Darn commission jobs :rolleyes:

EDIT:
This will contradict what I just said about “when funds become plentiful”… Do you know of anyone in the Des Moines area trying to sell a truck? I’m looking to spend $1000 or less on a truck to do deliveries. I don’t really care how it looks. Must do well in snow. i.e. 4x4 or new tires. If I have to spend money to make money, I gotta do it.

90blkbrd
08-05-2009, 06:54 AM
Sorry no fan or knowledge of a cheap truck.

kylecoz88
05-26-2012, 12:07 AM
UPDATE: Thanks to Bryce - 90coug - this issue has been resolved after THREE years. I purchased a used wiring harness for the cam and DIS and it completely resolved my issues. I always suspected that there was a break in the wiring somewhere, but this confirms it. Starts on the first try and my tach now works. I thought I should update this if anyone else is searching for the same problem. :D

Kyle