PDA

View Full Version : Please, what should I try next? I'm seriously about to give up



stigs
04-26-2009, 01:40 PM
Hi all - I'm really stuck getting this car started, and have no idea where to go from here - I know this is a long post but I really need to the advice of some SC vets.

I've researched every thread on the forum I can find on the topic and am still stuck. I really love this car! However, I'm starting to wonder why...

I'll put my questions on top, supporting data below

What should I do / replace next? Some of my last thoughts are...
a) Keep looking for vacuum leaks?
b) Maybe the parts store gave me wrong injectors? Would stock injectors be a certain color?
c) Maybe my "new" MAF / IAC are bad? Is there any way to tell other than buying new ones?
d) Should I compression check the cylinders? Maybe I lost a head gasket? (There are few things in the world I hate more than replacing the plugs on this car)
e) Something else my pea-sized hasn't thought of next...


Now the information...
I'm truly stuck working on my wife's '95 SC, manual tranny. The original engine was getting VERY long in the tooth, so I dropped a crate engine engine in. Despite my objections, my wife asked me to keep everything stock, so I have done my very best to do so.
After dropping the new block in, and having some standard issues, the engine started and ran for my first couple test runs, then I started having troubles, problems included (but not all inclusive), vacuum leaks, stuck injectors, bad sensors, etc...

Regardless, it won't start now - it will turn over and "kick" occasionally and if I pump the pedal it will start momentarily then summarily die. If I disconnect the MAF, I can keep it running if I continuously pump the pedal (although it seems super rich with white smoke / fumes out the tail pipe.)

Here's everything that I've done firewall forward: (at least that I can think of at the moment)
-Crate Long Block
-Rebuilt blower
-New Injectors
-new Fuel Press Reg
-new EGR valve and sensor
-new coolant temp sensor
-new Cam Sensor
-new crank sensor
-new MAF sensor (no- it's not a specialty store MAF)
-new IAC (again, no, not specialty brand)
-new fuel pump
-new plugs
-new DIS
-new CPU
-new clutch
-new flywheel

Testing
-Fuel pressure tests good 35+psi on the rail and takes days to bleed all the way down
-I've looked for vacuum leaks more times than I can count, including pressurizing the lines and practically soaking the engine in soapy water. Under ~5psi pressure, a noticeable 'woosh" is heard when I open the throttle body, which makes me think that there is no longer a huge leak at least...
-The fact that it WILL run makes me think something resembling ignition is present...
- key on engine off tests gives no codes, can't get a engine running test
- can't keep engine running long enough to spray starter fluid on lines for vacuum leak check

Thanks again, everyone - I appreciate any and all help!

the-big-e
04-26-2009, 02:26 PM
Are you getting any back fire when the engine is running.....

What condition were the injectors in when you installed them.....

Are you sure you wired them up correctly.....

Thats all I can think of right off the top of my head.....

Most of the time it will be something simple.....:rolleyes:

Get some IC tube gaskets to rule out any leaks in those areas....

They will make tune ups a lot easier......

Ira R.
04-26-2009, 02:32 PM
Make sure you are using the correct firing order. Most of the manuals have it wrong. Check it out here:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=765781&postcount=13


Ira

sinhumane
04-26-2009, 02:32 PM
i would finger your idle air control... change it with a known good unit and report back. my wife was driving my 94 and it all of a sudden just died... she held the throttle open a bit and it fired right up... changed teh iac and no issues...

check all your ground wires, primarily the wire on the pass. side, down on the frame rail. that has been known to cause issues.

stigs
04-26-2009, 03:08 PM
Are you getting any back fire when the engine is running.....

What condition were the injectors in when you installed them.....

Are you sure you wired them up correctly.....

Thats all I can think of right off the top of my head.....

Most of the time it will be something simple.....:rolleyes:

Get some IC tube gaskets to rule out any leaks in those areas....

They will make tune ups a lot easier......

Injectors were new when I installed them - is there any quick way to tell that they are the correct size?

I've doused the IC tubes with soapy water under pressure, and resealed them again just to be sure...

I'll double check the wiring

Thanks so much for the help - keep it coming!

stigs
04-26-2009, 03:09 PM
Make sure you are using the correct firing order. Most of the manuals have it wrong. Check it out here:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=765781&postcount=13


Ira

I just checked the wiring against your diagram - it was good to go. Thanks for helping!

stigs
04-26-2009, 03:10 PM
i would finger your idle air control... change it with a known good unit and report back. my wife was driving my 94 and it all of a sudden just died... she held the throttle open a bit and it fired right up... changed teh iac and no issues...

check all your ground wires, primarily the wire on the pass. side, down on the frame rail. that has been known to cause issues.

Ground is good to go - any one know where I can find a known good IAC in the Houston / Central TX area?

Thanks for all your help!

stigs
04-26-2009, 03:13 PM
Are you getting any back fire when the engine is running.....

What condition were the injectors in when you installed them.....

Are you sure you wired them up correctly.....

Thats all I can think of right off the top of my head.....

Most of the time it will be something simple.....:rolleyes:

Get some IC tube gaskets to rule out any leaks in those areas....

They will make tune ups a lot easier......

Just re-read your post - nope, no backfires but I can barely keep it running anyhow...

How does one mis-wire a injector? This is my first time working with fuel injection so I'm not being sarcastic in the least!

Thanks again for the help!

sinhumane
04-26-2009, 04:43 PM
you can get the injector connectors on the pass side easily.. 1 and 2 almost got mixed up on mine. i believe the red and tan wires are to cylinder number 1, red and white are number two. i may be backwards.. i just went on with the diagram in the back of the haynes.

XR7 Dave
04-26-2009, 08:04 PM
Have you checked cam sensor timing? Have you tried to run the car with the cam sensor disconnected?

BLOWN38
04-26-2009, 08:20 PM
Have you checked cam sensor timing? Have you tried to run the car with the cam sensor disconnected?

What he said.

Mike8675309
04-26-2009, 08:25 PM
Definitely check the cam sensor. Mucking around with the throttle shouldn't have anything to do with starting.

Most likely the rich condition you are seeing is due to messing with the gas pedal, the partial hick-ups are going to be when you have the pedal all the way to to floor (which tells the EEC-IV to turn off the fuel injectors) and the excess fuel vapor tries to ignite.

You can cause issues with using the throttle while cranking. You'll get too much fuel in the cylinders and foul the plugs. Fuel Fouled plugs make starting an engine nearly impossible.

Personally, I'd slow down, change out all the plugs, then try what dave suggested and pull the cam sensor connector off and try to start without touching the gas pedal.

If that doesn't work, then next consider doing the no-start pinpoint test as discussed in this thread:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25523&highlight=pinpoint

Post back with your results for either of the above suggestions and then folks can walk you through it.

stigs
04-26-2009, 08:33 PM
Definitely check the cam sensor. Mucking around with the throttle shouldn't have anything to do with starting.

Most likely the rich condition you are seeing is due to messing with the gas pedal, the partial hick-ups are going to be when you have the pedal all the way to to floor (which tells the EEC-IV to turn off the fuel injectors) and the excess fuel vapor tries to ignite.

You can cause issues with using the throttle while cranking. You'll get too much fuel in the cylinders and foul the plugs. Fuel Fouled plugs make starting an engine nearly impossible.

Personally, I'd slow down, change out all the plugs, then try what dave suggested and pull the cam sensor connector off and try to start without touching the gas pedal.

If that doesn't work, then next consider doing the no-start pinpoint test as discussed in this thread:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25523&highlight=pinpoint

Post back with your results for either of the above suggestions and then folks can walk you through it.

Thanks for all the words - I'll try all this ASAP

91BlackBird
04-26-2009, 08:44 PM
Tps sensor.
If it's reading 5v you'll never get it started as that is clear flood(injector shutoff) and can happen when a tps goes bad.
Check to see if you have fuel first by disconnecting your fuel filter and seeing if she shoots while cranking,if so you know your getting fuel.
Next see if you have spark by disconnecting a spark plug wire at the coil
(i know not good for it but he probably does not have a spark tester)and looking for a big blue spark while someone cranks.

stigs
04-26-2009, 09:38 PM
Tps sensor.
If it's reading 5v you'll never get it started as that is clear flood(injector shutoff) and can happen when a tps goes bad.
Check to see if you have fuel first by disconnecting your fuel filter and seeing if she shoots while cranking,if so you know your getting fuel.
Next see if you have spark by disconnecting a spark plug wire at the coil
(i know not good for it but he probably does not have a spark tester)and looking for a big blue spark while someone cranks.

Fuel pressure is good at rail and stays pressurized for well over 24 hours. Spark tests good. Thanks for your thoughts - it's appreciated

stigs
04-26-2009, 10:00 PM
Definitely check the cam sensor. Mucking around with the throttle shouldn't have anything to do with starting.

Most likely the rich condition you are seeing is due to messing with the gas pedal, the partial hick-ups are going to be when you have the pedal all the way to to floor (which tells the EEC-IV to turn off the fuel injectors) and the excess fuel vapor tries to ignite.

You can cause issues with using the throttle while cranking. You'll get too much fuel in the cylinders and foul the plugs. Fuel Fouled plugs make starting an engine nearly impossible.

Personally, I'd slow down, change out all the plugs, then try what dave suggested and pull the cam sensor connector off and try to start without touching the gas pedal.

If that doesn't work, then next consider doing the no-start pinpoint test as discussed in this thread:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25523&highlight=pinpoint

Post back with your results for either of the above suggestions and then folks can walk you through it.

The plugs are very fresh...(I was thinking fouled plugs too so I just changed them, but I will still try changing them again) I went out and tried starting sans cam sensor - no change at all - again it "kicks" as if starting, I'll come off the starter and it will kick and sputter for a few seconds and die, regardless of what I do with the throttle. (I'm not touching the throttle before it "starts.")

Anyone have any other thoughts before I go through the pinpoint test provided?

Mike8675309
04-26-2009, 10:22 PM
The plugs are very fresh...(I was thinking fouled plugs too so I just changed them, but I will still try changing them again) I went out and tried starting sans cam sensor - no change at all - again it "kicks" as if starting, I'll come off the starter and it will kick and sputter for a few seconds and die, regardless of what I do with the throttle. (I'm not touching the throttle before it "starts.")

Anyone have any other thoughts before I go through the pinpoint test provided?

when trying with the cam sensor disconnected. you need to follow a cycle of.
Key on, crank. If no start, key off then key on crank. if no start, key off then key on, crank. The cycle of key on, crank, key off allows the EEC to guess at the best time to start. It'll guess right about once out of 3 tries.

stigs
04-26-2009, 10:50 PM
when trying with the cam sensor disconnected. you need to follow a cycle of.
Key on, crank. If no start, key off then key on crank. if no start, key off then key on, crank. The cycle of key on, crank, key off allows the EEC to guess at the best time to start. It'll guess right about once out of 3 tries.

I gave this a shot and once or twice out of ten tries the car idled (albeit very rough) for a good 5 - 10 seconds...I'm going to change the plugs and try this again. If it runs after that, is it a bad CPS / CPS wiring harness / CPS alignment?

I can't say this enough - thank you Mike and everyone!

91BlackBird
04-27-2009, 08:13 AM
You have to check that tps and make sure you have the right voltage since you have not ssaid you replaced it or even checked it.
Also have you pulled codes???

89tird
04-27-2009, 10:37 AM
When mine didnt start after HG, the ground cable that goes from the battery negative to the radiator core was missing, installed a cable and it started right up.. just a thought.

stigs
04-27-2009, 10:43 AM
You have to check that tps and make sure you have the right voltage since you have not ssaid you replaced it or even checked it.
Also have you pulled codes???

91,
It is a new TPS. I checked my original post and I see that I didn't mention that - sorry. No codes, but that's only on engine off test - won't run long enough for engine on.

I will check the TPS voltage though - I'll research older posts on how to make that happen.

Thanks for all your help on this.

stigs
04-27-2009, 10:45 AM
When mine didnt start after HG, the ground cable that goes from the battery negative to the radiator core was missing, installed a cable and it started right up.. just a thought.

I have a solid ground from the block to the pass side of the engine compartment - I don't ever remember a grounding cable near the radiator core - maybe a difference between '89s and a '95? Anyone else know?

Thank you for you help!

89tird
04-27-2009, 10:58 AM
my 95 sc has it too, you should def. try it.. !! gave me a bunch of headaches.

stigs
04-27-2009, 11:02 AM
You have to check that tps and make sure you have the right voltage since you have not ssaid you replaced it or even checked it.
Also have you pulled codes???

Just checked the tps voltage - .98V steady as a rock with key on engine off - does that sound right?

Thanks!

stigs
04-27-2009, 11:03 AM
my 95 sc has it too, you should def. try it.. !! gave me a bunch of headaches.

Could you give me some details, what it looks like, exactly where it connects to and/from? I may have to manufacture the strap. Thanks!

XR7 Dave
04-27-2009, 11:08 AM
The ground wire from the battery goes directly to the lower starter attaching bolt. This is the main engine ground, the one on the passenger side frame rail is only an auxiliary ground.

stigs
04-27-2009, 11:18 AM
The ground wire from the battery goes directly to the lower starter attaching bolt. This is the main engine ground, the one on the passenger side frame rail is only an auxiliary ground.

Dave,
This ground I'm very familiar with and was a solid connection last time I checked. I'll check it out again and make sure continuity is good along the wire. Thanks!

DrFishbone
04-27-2009, 11:35 AM
Regardless, it won't start now - it will turn over and "kick" occasionally and if I pump the pedal it will start momentarily then summarily die. If I disconnect the MAF, I can keep it running if I continuously pump the pedal (although it seems super rich with white smoke / fumes out the tail pipe.)

I hate to think this...but what does the white smoke smell like?

stigs
04-27-2009, 11:38 AM
I hate to think this...but what does the white smoke smell like?

Fuel - it seems to be super rich which checks with the set of plugs I changed out after that - wet and fouled.

What were you thinking? (Do I want to ask?)

Thanks for your help!

89tird
04-27-2009, 12:08 PM
Could you give me some details, what it looks like, exactly where it connects to and/from? I may have to manufacture the strap. Thanks!


I just went to autozone and bought a negative cable for my 93sc it came with the smaller gauge cable attached to the terminal.

before I bought the cable I rigged a 12 gauge wire from the negative post to the radiator core. and I drove the car for the 1st time.

DrFishbone
04-27-2009, 12:43 PM
What were you thinking? (Do I want to ask?)

When I read "white smoke" I thought coolant. It would just be a shame on such a fresh motor! Just thought I would mention it in case everyone overlooked it in your initial post.

stigs
04-27-2009, 12:44 PM
I just went to autozone and bought a negative cable for my 93sc it came with the smaller gauge cable attached to the terminal.

before I bought the cable I rigged a 12 gauge wire from the negative post to the radiator core. and I drove the car for the 1st time.

'89 - Could you try and explain to me exactly where the other end of that connection goes? Thank you!

Upon further inspection, I do have a an addition grounding wire there, but it doesn't go to the radiator core, exactly. It connects to the sheet metal on which the front edge of the hood comes down well to the right of the core. I don't remember that connection at all (obviously - I've been so many rounds with this car it gets blurry) and the way it is now it doesn't make sense now that I look at it. I may have moved it during the engine drop.

stigs
04-27-2009, 12:47 PM
When I read "white smoke" I thought coolant. It would just be a shame on such a fresh motor! Just thought I would mention it in case everyone overlooked it in your initial post.

Definitely did not smell like coolant - I know that smell, and hate it appropriately. I may end up doing compression checks on the cylinders anyways however, if nothing else is determined. Thanks for your help! The more the merrier...

91BlackBird
04-27-2009, 01:53 PM
.98v sounds good,at least that's out of your way.
I'd tow it to the nearest ford dealer or reputable shop and pay the 1hr diag then fix it yourself.
Save yourself the money of throwing parts at it and the pulling your hair out.

stigs
04-27-2009, 01:56 PM
.98v sounds good,at least that's out of your way.
I'd tow it to the nearest ford dealer or reputable shop and pay the 1hr diag then fix it yourself.
Save yourself the money of throwing parts at it and the pulling your hair out.

Trust me, I'm almost there!

stigs
04-27-2009, 03:45 PM
Any chance the injectors I bought were wrong specs? Would that cause this problem? Any way to check / test?

DrFishbone
04-27-2009, 03:52 PM
What injectors did you buy? The stock early style (89-93) are red.

Ddubb
04-27-2009, 03:54 PM
He has a 94/95 .. they should be the late model injectors ( Blue )

You dropped a new engine in because it was "getting long in the tooth" ??

What does that mean exactly, felt like you had a loss of power ?

How are your catalytic converters .. any chance they might be clogged ?

- Dan

stigs
04-27-2009, 04:59 PM
He has a 94/95 .. they should be the late model injectors ( Blue )

You dropped a new engine in because it was "getting long in the tooth" ??

What does that mean exactly, felt like you had a loss of power ?

How are your catalytic converters .. any chance they might be clogged ?

- Dan

I called Delphi up directly regarding the injectors I installed, should be good to go. I'm going to take apart the exhaust after changing the plugs again and hope for a very loud (but successful) start.

XR7 Dave
04-27-2009, 05:10 PM
I called Delphi up directly regarding the injectors I installed, should be good to go. I'm going to take apart the exhaust after changing the plugs again and hope for a very loud (but successful) start.

I don't see where you verified correct cam sensor timing. That should have been done 1st thing with a new motor before it was even started the first time.

stigs
04-27-2009, 06:06 PM
I don't see where you verified correct cam sensor timing. That should have been done 1st thing with a new motor before it was even started the first time.

Dave,
When I installed the engine, I set the timing per the many threads on this board regarding the subject. I have also tried starting the car with the CPS unplugged and had no significant change - it did run for a couple seconds but...
I am planning on attempting to try it one more time with the CPS unplugged once I get the plugs changed one more time.

I haven't forgotten about your suggestion - and it's much appreciated!

89tird
04-27-2009, 07:15 PM
'89 - Could you try and explain to me exactly where the other end of that connection goes? Thank you!

Upon further inspection, I do have a an addition grounding wire there, but it doesn't go to the radiator core, exactly. It connects to the sheet metal on which the front edge of the hood comes down well to the right of the core. I don't remember that connection at all (obviously - I've been so many rounds with this car it gets blurry) and the way it is now it doesn't make sense now that I look at it. I may have moved it during the engine drop.

this is what it looks like on my 95
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/nyinterceptor/101_0195.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/nyinterceptor/101_0194.jpg

on my 93 what I did was, splice a wire into the small cable coming out of the negative battery wire and put a ring terminal onto the other end which goes on the rad. core.

hope this helps

stigs
04-27-2009, 09:27 PM
this is what it looks like on my 95
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/nyinterceptor/101_0195.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/nyinterceptor/101_0194.jpg

on my 93 what I did was, splice a wire into the small cable coming out of the negative battery wire and put a ring terminal onto the other end which goes on the rad. core.

hope this helps

'89 - It looks just like that I my car as well. I also spent a good 15 minutes doing continuity tests between negative terminal and numerous parts of the engine bay - everything I could think of that should be connected electrically is. I was really wishing this was the problem - thanks for the try!

DrFishbone
04-28-2009, 07:13 AM
He has a 94/95 .. they should be the late model injectors ( Blue )

You dropped a new engine in because it was "getting long in the tooth" ??

What does that mean exactly, felt like you had a loss of power ?

How are your catalytic converters .. any chance they might be clogged ?

- Dan

whoops got this thread confused with another one that's going :o

stigs
04-28-2009, 10:39 AM
He has a 94/95 .. they should be the late model injectors ( Blue )

You dropped a new engine in because it was "getting long in the tooth" ??

What does that mean exactly, felt like you had a loss of power ?

How are your catalytic converters .. any chance they might be clogged ?

- Dan

Dan,
I forgot to answer this yesterday - The original engine had a bunch of miles on it, 150K+ (I haven't fixed the odometer). It was leaving a pool of oil out of the rear main seal where ever it went and it sounded like a LOT of piston slap when you got on the gas with a corresponding plume of oil blow by out the exhaust. Opening the case is probably beyond my capabilities and quotes for rebuild were the same or more than a crate in my area. I was getting fed up with the oil so I just went for the whole shebang.
Now if it would stop raining I could go try out some more of these suggestions... :)

stigs
06-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Hi again everyone---

Should I to buying and replacing the BAP? Here's what I found

I've been digging through the pinpoint no start tests for the '95 off of the shop manual (CD) and got to testing the BAP...VREF was solid at 5.0V, but with key on engine off the signal was 2.50V - according to the manual, I should be seeing no more than 1.59 volts as I am at sea level - would this cause my rich running no start condition?

thanks a million, as always

Cheers,
Stigs

Mike8675309
06-21-2009, 08:47 PM
Hi again everyone---

Should I to buying and replacing the BAP? Here's what I found

I've been digging through the pinpoint no start tests for the '95 off of the shop manual (CD) and got to testing the BAP...VREF was solid at 5.0V, but with key on engine off the signal was 2.50V - according to the manual, I should be seeing no more than 1.59 volts as I am at sea level - would this cause my rich running no start condition?

thanks a million, as always

Cheers,
Stigs

perhaps. Try to start with it disconnected. it should throw a code, and run with some default values that should let the car run.