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View Full Version : standalone help! mustang supercoupe swap! :eek:



38mustang
05-09-2009, 06:34 PM
Was wondering if anyone could help me! I have a WOLF EMS standalone system and was wondering if anyone had some helpful suggestions for timing map? I have a fully built supercoupe motor setup swapped into a 1995 mustang. Here are some pics of the build and pic of my timing map from my software.

(Neutral balanced motor)
8.8:1 CR Wiseco forged pistons
Eagle 5.956 I-beam rods
99 3.8 block
2001 crankshaft
Neutral billet steel balancer and aluminum flywheel
1.7 Stud mount rocker arm kit
1.85/1.55 stainless steel valves
Windage tray
CompCams 218/224 .51/.51 112 Billet cam
Set Manley retainers and Crane locks
1.85/1.55 stainless steel valves
Ported heads and intake manifold
Eaton m90 roots blower with custom made raised top, aluminum piping and front mount intercooler
(15-20 psi of boost) 20% OVERDRIVE not sure what psi its going to run..
60 lbs injectors
Adjustable fuel regulator with rail mounted gauge
255 fuel pump
Tremec TKO tranny 5spd
Long tube headers (modified)
Custom made Stainless w spin tech mufflers side exhaust
85 mm throttle body with modified supercharger plenum.
Plx wide band.
LS2 coil packs & 8.8 MSD wires
Wolf ems version 4.72
New 8.8 rear end w 3.73 gears posi
aluminum drive shaft

probably more….

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p318/badassmof01/100_2388.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p318/badassmof01/100_2387.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p318/badassmof01/Picture024.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p318/badassmof01/Picture027.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p318/badassmof01/untitled.jpg


Thanks everyone! help would be great! :D

Toms-SC
05-09-2009, 07:27 PM
Those valve covers are hot. :eek:

38mustang
05-09-2009, 08:00 PM
thanks got them from bbk performance... what about my timing?

frdlvr30
05-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Try the tuning forum....Nice work on the car by the way...There are very few people on here that will be able to help you. Especially with stand alone.

nickleman60
05-10-2009, 03:28 PM
Try posting over on V6power.net boards, they're mostly v6 mustangs with either superchargers or turbos.

Flex
05-10-2009, 04:12 PM
The V6 power guys are mostly tuners and centrifugals and not that knowledgeable on the M90 setups.

Flex
05-10-2009, 04:14 PM
He's a newbie so he doesn't have access to the tuning forumn.

38Mustang,

Great effort on the project. Looks awesome. Try Frasier (fturner) or Dave Dalke (XR7Dave). Dave tunes SC's and Frasier is really into the chip and software aspect of the game.

fastsc92
05-10-2009, 06:37 PM
I'm not at home right now to post up the info, but I will once I get to my computer.

38mustang
05-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Thanks everyone! I put alot of work into this car. 5 years to be exact and two motors. Wish I could get on the tuner forum... not sure if i want to pay for the membership though. Anymore suggestions would be great!

frdlvr30
05-10-2009, 08:47 PM
Sorry, I forgot that was a member only forum...

Blown347
05-10-2009, 09:38 PM
You spent all that time and money just take it to a good shop spend $300 have it tunned and don't F with it. Trust me been down that road.



Good luck with it sweet setup.

38mustang
05-10-2009, 10:18 PM
The last set up I had 2 shops try and tune this thing and they did a horrible job. I just ended up changing everything. A/F ratios lean as hell and timing was way to conservative. we are talking 15 degrees at WOT. They toasted my tranny and i believe they are the reason why I had to rebuild the motor. You are right though, I want it done right. just want to know what you guys run for timing? Wot 17 psi boost 21 degrees? low load 30 degrees?

I just have a hard time passing my car off to anyone...

fturner
05-11-2009, 09:35 AM
If I was tuning your car I'd start with about 17 degrees timing max at the top end and double check the AFR targetting 11.7.

What you need I think if I can read that chart right is to start with the borderline spark table off of a 94/95 SC but keep the upper load and rpm spark a couple of degrees lower like I mentioned above. Your motor will probably behave similar to a stock SC at part throttle etc.

You need to get the car on a dyno and start working the timing up.

What MAF are you running or are you running the car as speed density? Just curious why the car would lean out.

Fraser

38mustang
05-11-2009, 12:38 PM
I am running a 2 bar map, crank, TPS, IAC, Watertemp, and air temp sensor. waste spark with bank injection.... It ran lean because the fuel map was not correct... I agree with the 17 degrees for a start point. I will remap that:) thanks.

38mustang
05-11-2009, 12:48 PM
Do any of you guys have that borderline spark table?

O and just to explain my map a little bit... the X axis is based of load % via map sensor. Basically i have it programmed so that 100% load would be 20 psi... 35% load would be like 12 psi and so on. Y axis is just rpm.

Thanks for all the help BTW:D

fturner
05-11-2009, 12:55 PM
I can take a snapshot of it when I get home after work if someone doesn't post it up before then.

It sounds like your fuel mapping is along the lines of speed density instead of MAF which is based on load and rpm. In some ways its suppose to be easier to tune, but in other ways it can become a major pain. For your load%, you need to know if 100% load is going to be a full boost (less likely), or is it setup that when you enter boost the car will be going over 100% load (more likely). Typically with a roots style blower your going to see over 100% (for instance my car hits about 137% load at around 3200rpm's at around 15psi) and slowly drops from there as it revs higher. Also, anytime even at idle that motor will have load, say maybe around 15% and if it was N/A you could see 70% load at WOT.

I can only speculate because I'm not familiar with that wolf system.

Slowly work your car up into higher load and rpm datalogging everything along the way.... but keep the higher stuff on the safe side till your there.

Fraser

fastsc92
05-11-2009, 10:33 PM
Here are the spark tables for a stock 92-93 SC. They are load vs. RPM


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/fastsc92/spark.jpg

38mustang
05-11-2009, 11:41 PM
Which map should I use as a base map?

Ghost
05-12-2009, 02:11 AM
Part of your problem is the way you set up the map vs. your MAP sensor. A 2 bar MAP will read a maximum of 14.7 PSI absolute boost. This means that it is unable to read anything above that. If you're running higher boost, you need a 3 bar MAP sensor for your system. Yes, you will lose some resolution, but there's really no way around it. I would probably use the low altitude timing map just because it will be less aggressive than the high altitude timing map. Remember that speed density does not need to compensate for altitude since you're inferring the air mass from the MAP sensor.

XR7 Dave
05-12-2009, 08:12 AM
Jay, I don't know where you got those timing maps but that is screwed up. An SC will hardly run with those lower timing maps. The Base map is the only one that is any good and it is pretty close although it has no resolution above 105% load. For max timing under boost start at 16 deg and work up from there. Most likely it will want at least 20 deg to make any power. Not sure if pump gas will work out for you at your boost level though.

Ghost is right, you have to run a 3bar MAP and scale everything for your maximum intended boost level. An SC motor will generate no more than 70% load at 0 boost so use that to determine your preferred AFR and timing maps. When you install the 3 Bar map sensor, be sure to properly scale your tables. You'll need the transfer function for whatever sensor you end up using.

Too bad you jumped ship and went to an aftermarket EMS. The Ford system is so much easier. Mike Tuck has the same system though, so he may be able to give you some tips on setting it up.

fastsc92
05-12-2009, 09:10 AM
Dave,

I got those tables right from BE, from the stock Z1Z2 bin file. Under accel in closed loop, the EEC will use the Base Sealevel table (FN901). Under normal part throttle the EEC will use: (Base Sealevel LOM + Altitude LOM + Sealevel Multiplier vs. BP + Alt. Multiplier vs. BP). The explaination in BE is as follows:


PART THROTTLE MODE SPARK:
Normal Part throttle is (FN904A * FN212A + FN905A * FN129A). During normal part throttle operation, the logic "interpolates" between sea level table (FN904A) and altitude table (FN905A) to calculate base spark.
Tip-in Spark (LOM) is (1 - LUGTMR/LUGTIM) * FN901

On accelerating from a standstill, the strategy uses a more aggressive spark table (FN901) for improved performance. Over a period of time (LUGTIM), the spark shifts from LOM spark to normal part throttle spark. The LUGTMR logic is described in the Timer Chapter. BASE SPARK - LOM SPARK RELATIONSHIP


Now this doesn't apply to him 100% since he's not running a BP sensor, but I figured it was a good starting point if he at least uses the Base Sealevel table, even though the resolution is capped at 100% load in its stock form.

This might be a good time to possibly explain how one goes through the tuning process of setting up scaling for load tables and goes through the steps to tuning for part throttle spark.

fturner
05-12-2009, 10:41 AM
The reason I stated a 94/95 borderline knock table is for its simplicity since that table is used even at WOT and extends further up in load (147% I believe).

The older strategies will very rarely use those spark tables over 100% as the car will already be into the WOT spark tables, which the main table used is based on RPM of the motor and no load. There's no reason for learning to scale those tables in the the older strats in our setup.

The lugging tables are also used in open loop, not just closed loop.

I agree with the 3bar map sensor as well, I missed that :o.

Fraser

fastsc92
05-12-2009, 10:56 AM
The older strategies will very rarely use those spark tables over 100% as the car will already be into the WOT spark tables, which the main table used is based on RPM of the motor and no load. There's no reason for learning to scale those tables in the the older strats in our setup.

Fraser


Ahh....these were my thoughts too. Since the OL load vs. ECT switches at 103% load, I didn't see the need to scale the load in the spark tables to higher values.

The part throttle spark calculation in the older strategy seems odd, since both the sealevel LOM and the alt. LOM tables are just the base table cut in half. When you plug them in the forumla, you get the same spark values at their respected load and rpms.:confused:

Can you comment on that Fraser?

When tuning for part throttle spark, would you change the base table only, or would you have to change LOM tables as well?

fturner
05-12-2009, 12:55 PM
It doesn't matter the open/closed loop status of the car for spark, the same table(s) are used. OL/CL status is only used for fuel. The only thing that determines when you go into WOT spark is the throttle position.

There are scalers that determine at what load lugging mode is considered for those spark tables.

As for tuning part throttle spark. If your up to the task, then I would apply the changes to the 3 tables so the lugging table doesn't remove what the base has and set the multiplier's to 1 so they have no affect. I'd like to think that Ford did a good job with those spark tables for part throttle so messing with them probably won't get too much unless your motor is radically different from stock.

Fraser

fturner
05-12-2009, 07:02 PM
I'm actually going to move the discussion on the spark tables to the tuning forum in the members section as there is issues with the names and use of those tables in several programs, not just BE..... That way we won't lose the focus of this thread.

Attached is the max allowed spark table from a 94/95 SC. As you can see it shows load up to 140%. Now you need to change your load range in the wolf software to scale up to 140% and use these spark values as a guide line for your car. I would recommend for the values above 90% load and above 3000 rpm's to subtract 4 degrees initially, and in fact drop the 120% load and higher and 4500 rpm and higher values another 2 degrees.

I think that should get you going and keep the car in a safe range for you to start out.

Fraser

Ghost
05-12-2009, 07:38 PM
Quick question: what do you standalone guys use for dwell times with the stock coil pack? I'll need to define that in my AEM and so far I haven't found any places that have the info. I can't use EDIS or the TFI module with my system.

fturner
05-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Quick question: what do you standalone guys use for dwell times with the stock coil pack? I'll need to define that in my AEM and so far I haven't found any places that have the info. I can't use EDIS or the TFI module with my system.

I can get you the stock settings for dwell time, but those are based on battery voltage vs milliseconds... not sure if that would help you.

Fraser

Ghost
05-12-2009, 08:19 PM
The AEM has 2 tables - dwell vs. RPM and dwell vs. volts. At this point any data on that is useful :)

Thanks!
Jacek

38mustang
05-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Ok... its nice to see everyone is commenting on my post...

The wolf ems system has a internal map sensor that is good up to 20psi.
So I'm fine there. I have a pretty good idea about what timing is going to work. Just wanted to have you supercoupe guys take a look at my map and give me some advice. Looks good/bad that sort of thing.

Anyways... dwell time! If you are running a standalone I would only recommend LS2 coil packs. They are the best and you can pick some up on ebay for 100$. Check out Megasquirt's website.

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

TELLS U EVERYTHING! Even gives you the best settings for Maximum Dwell, Maximum Spark Duration, and Acceleration Compensation. You can see them in my pics:)

38mustang
05-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Thank you Ftuner that map is exactly what info i needed:)

fturner
05-12-2009, 09:25 PM
Ok Dwell settings for the stock setup.

There's 2 tables for the dwell time vs vbat, and the switch temperature is 76F.

This is voltage vs milliseconds high temperature.
4095.9380 3.1
15.0000 3.1
13.0000 3.4
12.0000 3.8
10.0000 5.1
0.0000 5.1

This is voltage vs milliseconds low temperature
4095.9380 2.9
15.0000 2.9
14.0000 3.1
12.0000 4.1
10.0000 4.6
0.0000 4.6

For RPM, there is only 2 scalers used.
High speed dwell off time is set to 0.20ms
Low speed dwell off time is set to 0.50ms

Hope that helps.

To be honest with you guys, I don't see the need for using aftermarket systems anymore as the knowledge that we have with the EEC's gives you more control than any aftermarket will give you. I know your already commited, but if you where to start a new project I'd recommend sticking with the stock EEC's :).

Fraser