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Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 07:35 PM
I am at wits end with my Tbird temperature problem. Yesterday I scanned the Tbird with an Actron Scanner CP9145-CP9150. I did the KOEO and KOER this is what I got:

KOEO codes:
335 Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Malfunction
336 Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance
214 Cold Start Injector 2 Malfunction

KOER codes:
167 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 3)
225 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch C Circuit Malfunction
632 Trans CTRL SW CKT No State Change During Self Test

My question is do any of these codes have an impact on my engine high temperature problem? I recently put in a remanufactured super charger, and while I want to believe the remanufactured super charger is not the problem, I only started experiencing the high temp problems after the installation. I have already washed out my intercooler, changed my ECT Temp sensor, and flushed the coolant system. Could someone help me!

Young-SC-Owner
05-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Do you have the factory chin spoiler on there still?
Do the fans operate CORRECTLY

What thermostat do you have in it?
Is it actually running hot verified VIA a laser thermometer?

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:02 PM
Yes I still have the factory chin spoiler on there.

The engine fan comes on to late in my opinion.

My thermostat is a 195.

No it is not actually running hot verified VIA a laser thermometer. The check guage light comes on and the needle is far right of normal and very close to going into the red box.

LordBear
05-10-2009, 08:09 PM
well from what i have heard around....is that when u get a bird..first thing u do is put in a lower temp thermostat..cuz stock ones run things hot.. and i believe it is the 180 that u need..might not fix ur prob..but its a start...

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:14 PM
I used to have a 160 not a 180 but I was still experiencing the same high temp problem. I was told that I should not go below a 195 because the temperature system is suppose to need a 195 in order for the sensors to respond properly to the computer.

birds4us
05-10-2009, 08:23 PM
So if you say that it is not running hot, then is the gauge reading the same as the temp reading from the laser tester? From what you have stated, it seems like the gauge may be off.

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:29 PM
So if you say that it is not running hot, then is the gauge reading the same as the temp reading from the laser tester? From what you have stated, it seems like the gauge may be off.

It is running hot. I did not get the temp reading from a laser tester. I got it from the guage itself. The needle is all the way to the right short of going into the red box, and I get the red check guage light. When I open the hood I pulled the relief lever on my 13 psi radiator cap and I can hear pressure releasing into the recovery tank, and it took about a good 5 to 10 minutes for the pressure to dissipate from the radiator into the recovery tank. I take it as a sign that it is over heating.

fturner
05-10-2009, 08:29 PM
Without a chip, the low speed fan won't come on until the car reaches 220 and the high speed comes on at 228. All years of SC's are setup like this.

Fraser

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:32 PM
Without a chip, the low speed fan won't come on until the car reaches 220 and the high speed comes on at 228. All years of SC's are setup like this.

Fraser

I believe I have a chip. I have a stock 1994 Tbird SC. I never actually checked to see if it had a chip, I know my car has a computer. Is this something I can find myself or do I need to take it to a mechanic?

birds4us
05-10-2009, 08:32 PM
No it is not actually running hot verified VIA a laser thermometer.

I was just responding to your own post.

Young-SC-Owner
05-10-2009, 08:33 PM
You need to verify it is actually running hot,
And the deal with the vent lever...The system runs pressurized..So it will depressurize into the overflow bottle

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:44 PM
You need to verify it is actually running hot,
And the deal with the vent lever...The system runs pressurized..So it will depressurize into the overflow bottle


So are you saying the only way to actually verify the high temp is with a laser tester and not the guage in the instrument panel even though the needle is all the way to the right short of the red box? Also even though the check guage icon showing is that is not enough to confirm that the temp is very high?

fturner
05-10-2009, 08:45 PM
I believe I have a chip. I have a stock 1994 Tbird SC. I never actually checked to see if it had a chip, I know my car has a computer. Is this something I can find myself or do I need to take it to a mechanic?

The car will have a computer or EEC as its called. It'll be located up beside the glove box on the right side. You'll need to pull it down from below. A chip is a small card that plugs into the EEC to modify all the parameters (tune) to match to anything you do to the car.

If the car is totally stock and the fans come on when the car is quite hot, I would say you don't have a chip because most tuners will lower the fan on temps based on what tstat your running.

Fraser

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:49 PM
I was just responding to your own post.

Okay let me clarify that it is running hot. However, I did not realize this via the laser thermometer. I found this out by the guage in the instrument panel as the needle is all the way to the right short of the red box, and the check guage icon is coming on.

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 08:55 PM
The car will have a computer or EEC as its called. It'll be located up beside the glove box on the right side. You'll need to pull it down from below. A chip is a small card that plugs into the EEC to modify all the parameters (tune) to match to anything you do to the car.

If the car is totally stock and the fans come on when the car is quite hot, I would say you don't have a chip because most tuners will lower the fan on temps based on what tstat your running.

Fraser


Okay I will check into that and get back to you. By the way, will I need any special tools to pull it down? How will I be able to identify it in the computer? Is it possible for you to describe it for me? If I do not have one or need a new one, where can I get it from?

I truly appreciate the guidance you are providing.

Young-SC-Owner
05-10-2009, 08:58 PM
YES you NEED TO VERIFY IT VIA A LASER THERMOMETER
The gage is just an "idiot" gage in laymens terms

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 09:01 PM
YES you NEED TO VERIFY IT VIA A LASER THERMOMETER
The gage is just an "idiot" gage in laymens terms


Okay I will get a Laser Thermometer. Can you tell me where to get one and how much it cost?

Thanks for the guidance. I truly appreciate it.

Young-SC-Owner
05-10-2009, 09:07 PM
Any auto parts store, walmart, lowes.....
usually less than 20 bucks

fturner
05-10-2009, 09:12 PM
Okay I will check into that and get back to you. By the way, will I need any special tools to pull it down? How will I be able to identify it in the computer? Is it possible for you to describe it for me? If I do not have one or need a new one, where can I get it from?

I truly appreciate the guidance you are providing.

Better check to see if the car is running too hot first before you start thinking of the EEC

Fraser

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 09:16 PM
Any auto parts store, walmart, lowes.....
usually less than 20 bucks


Thanks for the information. Since I work during the week and get off too late I will get back to everyone by the weekend with my discovery.

Thanks again.

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 09:19 PM
Better check to see if the car is running too hot first before you start thinking of the EEC

Fraser


Okay I should be able to confirm by next weekend as I get off of work too late to investigate. Another member suggested I get a laser therometer, so I will purchase one this week to proceed with my investigation. I will get back to everyone with my findings.

Thanks again for your help!

Young-SC-Owner
05-10-2009, 09:23 PM
Ok, and measure the temperatre right where the thermostat is

Bird of Prey 94
05-10-2009, 09:29 PM
Ok, and measure the temperatre right where the thermostat is


Okay will do!

Your response and other members have been really enlightening!

rickbtbird
05-10-2009, 10:02 PM
About a year after I got my 95 the car blew a radiator. I think it was the original and could have been repaired. I always felt the car ran too hot too but after replacing the radiator the temperature seems the same. In the summer months the temp gage would go above the "M", the fan kicks on and cools it down to the "N" in Normal. One real hot summer day as I pulled into the driveway I got a gauge close to the red box and check gauge amber light.

I never thought this was normal because my 90SC never did this. On that car the temp gauge never moved above the "N" unless it was an extremely hot outside then it creped into the O and would go back down when the fan came on.

I proceeded to rebuild the entire cooling system, sensors, and a new fan on the 95. It didn’t change one bit except I stopped getting the amber check gauge light and I acquired a lot of spare parts :o. On the hottest days IMO it was still running too hot for my liking. I finally took the advice of someone here and totally drained my coolant and replaced it with a solution of 40% coolant, 60% distilled water, and one bottle of Water Wetters. It changed a little bit more to my liking and so far I haven’t had any reoccurrences of any gauge readings above the right side of the “M”.

In stop and go and during hot summer days, you can watch the gauge cycle between "N" and "M" like every two to three minutes. In the fall and spring, the gage reads on the “N” and stays there while I’m on the highway and goes to “M” and the fan kicks on during stop and go. As the dog days of summer creep up on us the gauge will indicate a higher temperature during highway driving and will run on the bottom side of the “M” on the hottest days. I've heard this for a few other's this is normal for these cars.

On the lighter side about a year ago to the day, since I’ve done all this, the 90 blew a head gasket and threw a rod so I sold it.

TinManSC92
05-11-2009, 12:44 AM
tell us if you've been adding coolant at all. or, does the coolant level always stay at full level. that will answer a lot.

Duffy Floyd
05-11-2009, 01:02 AM
You might want to consider replacing both of the ECT Sensors. The one for the EEC is on the passenger side of the engine block mounted inline with one of the coolant hoses from the heater. The one for the gage is on the thermostat housing.

Changing the one for the EEC will ensure (assuming no wore or EEC issues) that the computer is getting an accurate enine coolant temperature reading. The other one will ensure you are seeing a somewhat accurate representation of the actual coolant temperature on the gage.

BuRHan90SC
05-11-2009, 04:27 AM
i thought check guage red light Was FOR tO TeLL U tELL u tHAT thERE IS AbOUt 3 gAlLOnS leFT iN tAnK?:confused:

Duffy Floyd
05-11-2009, 04:43 AM
Light comes on for Engine coolant temperature high or engine oil pressure low or when there is approximately 1/16th of a tank of gas left.

BuRHan90SC
05-11-2009, 04:55 AM
Light comes on for Engine coolant temperature high or engine oil pressure low or when there is approximately 1/16th of a tank of gas left.

thank you thank u

BuRHan90SC
05-11-2009, 06:57 AM
About a year after I got my 95 the car blew a radiator. I think it was the original and could have been repaired. I always felt the car ran too hot too but after replacing the radiator the temperature seems the same. In the summer months the temp gage would go above the "M", the fan kicks on and cools it down to the "N" in Normal. One real hot summer day as I pulled into the driveway I got a gauge close to the red box and check gauge amber light.

I never thought this was normal because my 90SC never did this. On that car the temp gauge never moved above the "N" unless it was an extremely hot outside then it creped into the O and would go back down when the fan came on.

I proceeded to rebuild the entire cooling system, sensors, and a new fan on the 95. It didn’t change one bit except I stopped getting the amber check gauge light and I acquired a lot of spare parts :o. On the hottest days IMO it was still running too hot for my liking. I finally took the advice of someone here and totally drained my coolant and replaced it with a solution of 40% coolant, 60% distilled water, and one bottle of Water Wetters. It changed a little bit more to my liking and so far I haven’t had any reoccurrences of any gauge readings above the right side of the “M”.

In stop and go and during hot summer days, you can watch the gauge cycle between "N" and "M" like every two to three minutes. In the fall and spring, the gage reads on the “N” and stays there while I’m on the highway and goes to “M” and the fan kicks on during stop and go. As the dog days of summer creep up on us the gauge will indicate a higher temperature during highway driving and will run on the bottom side of the “M” on the hottest days. I've heard this for a few other's this is normal for these cars.

On the lighter side about a year ago to the day, since I’ve done all this, the 90 blew a head gasket and threw a rod so I sold it.

exact same situation....it would go to M but will come back as soon i starts to driving or if fans kicks on....i asked my teacher and he told me its fine as some cars came from factory like this and all u can do to prevent this is to wire the fan inside and control it manually so u can keep the engine kool all the time...or double radiator IT...did anyone get the last part? cuz i didn't ask bothering back...double radiator it?...means put another radiator for extra cooling but where?....

EDIT: oh sorry let me introduce my self....i m an automotive engineering 2nd year student wit no much experience yet lol....:D

BuRHan90SC
05-11-2009, 07:03 AM
sorry birdofprey didnt mean to hijack the thread dude...

rickbtbird
05-11-2009, 12:53 PM
exact same situation....it would go to M but will come back as soon i starts to driving or if fans kicks on....i asked my teacher and he told me its fine as some cars came from factory like this and all u can do to prevent this is to wire the fan inside and control it manually so u can keep the engine kool all the time...or double radiator IT...did anyone get the last part? cuz i didn't ask bothering back...double radiator it?...means put another radiator for extra cooling but where?....

EDIT: oh sorry let me introduce my self....i m an automotive engineering 2nd year student wit no much experience yet lol....:D

My point... I think a lot of the heat issues with these cars are manufactured and/or misunderstood.

TbirdSCFan
05-11-2009, 02:24 PM
This problem seems to happen more often as the tbirds get older.

There are a number things needed to maintain the proper engine temperature.

The obvious:

1. Unobstructed and leak free radiator. That is one that allows the coolant to pass through freely. Residue builds up over time and eventually the rad has to be replaced. (I've tried to clean/patch these things multiple times. In the end, a new rad was the best solution.)

2. Working water pump and unobstructed coolant passages.

3. Good thermostat. I use the stock 192 - 195 without any bleed holes or rivets. Those actualy result in underheating.

4. Good temp guage sender (often listed as a temperature switch) with clean and snug connections.

5. Good working fan. The operation can be checked with a KOEO test or by turning on the A/C. Obviously the A/C must be working.


The not so obvious:

6. Good radiator cap.

7. Overflow tank must have/keep coolant at the low level with a cold engine and the level must rise when its hot. This indicates that the pressures are cycling as they should and that air has been completely purged from the system. It usually takes 4-5 heatup/cool down cycles to get it settled.

8. Heater core lines must allow coolant to flow freely. The ECT sensor sits on top of the outlet which feeds to the heater core. Coolant needs to flow through the lines and over the sensor tip.

9. Good ECT sensor. I've tested all of mine with an thermometer and Ohm meter on the stove and all are within spec. Of all the ECTs I've tested, I've never run across a bad one; however I still have a fan control problem... which leads us to.

10. Good EEC and wiring. The EEC turns the fan on/off for cooling and A/C operation. I was able to confirm that the ECT sensor is read by (simple) A/D circuitry on the board using a 5 volt VRef.

11. Good IRCM. The EEC switches 2 relays in the IRCM box. The wiring to the IRCM is typically where you can intercept and wire in a manual fan control switch.

The non-obvious:

12. Clean connections. The ECT connector, the engine wiring harness, and the connection at the EEC are all subject to resistance changes due to dielectric grease breakdown and pin surface corrosion with age.

It is my belief that #12 is probably the most obscure cause of overheating. Most of us have working fan... working IRCMs (fan runs with A/C on), working ECTs, working EECs (engine operates and passes emissions tests), good coolant, etc.. what we don't know is how many K-Ohms are introduced by the dielectric grease over the pins.. Any increase in resistance will cause the EEC to think the temp is lower than it really is.

And lastly, the most non-obvious:

13. Good voltage regulation on the EEC. Vref should be 5.0 probably to within 10%.

I'm thinking #13 may also be a major culprit. I'm going to be checking this out later. :cool:

Bird of Prey 94
05-12-2009, 08:16 PM
About a year after I got my 95 the car blew a radiator. I think it was the original and could have been repaired. I always felt the car ran too hot too but after replacing the radiator the temperature seems the same. In the summer months the temp gage would go above the "M", the fan kicks on and cools it down to the "N" in Normal. One real hot summer day as I pulled into the driveway I got a gauge close to the red box and check gauge amber light.

I never thought this was normal because my 90SC never did this. On that car the temp gauge never moved above the "N" unless it was an extremely hot outside then it creped into the O and would go back down when the fan came on.

I proceeded to rebuild the entire cooling system, sensors, and a new fan on the 95. It didn’t change one bit except I stopped getting the amber check gauge light and I acquired a lot of spare parts :o. On the hottest days IMO it was still running too hot for my liking. I finally took the advice of someone here and totally drained my coolant and replaced it with a solution of 40% coolant, 60% distilled water, and one bottle of Water Wetters. It changed a little bit more to my liking and so far I haven’t had any reoccurrences of any gauge readings above the right side of the “M”.

In stop and go and during hot summer days, you can watch the gauge cycle between "N" and "M" like every two to three minutes. In the fall and spring, the gage reads on the “N” and stays there while I’m on the highway and goes to “M” and the fan kicks on during stop and go. As the dog days of summer creep up on us the gauge will indicate a higher temperature during highway driving and will run on the bottom side of the “M” on the hottest days. I've heard this for a few other's this is normal for these cars.

On the lighter side about a year ago to the day, since I’ve done all this, the 90 blew a head gasket and threw a rod so I sold it.

Thanks for sharing, I see it’s a challenge to keep it super cool especially in the summer, so my goal is to shoot for anywhere between N and M, and definitely stay away from the infamous “check gauge light”.

Bird of Prey 94
05-12-2009, 08:18 PM
You might want to consider replacing both of the ECT Sensors. The one for the EEC is on the passenger side of the engine block mounted inline with one of the coolant hoses from the heater. The one for the gage is on the thermostat housing.

Changing the one for the EEC will ensure (assuming no wore or EEC issues) that the computer is getting an accurate enine coolant temperature reading. The other one will ensure you are seeing a somewhat accurate representation of the actual coolant temperature on the gage.


I have already changed the ECT sensor. However, the one for the gauge I have not done yet.

Bird of Prey 94
05-12-2009, 08:19 PM
tell us if you've been adding coolant at all. or, does the coolant level always stay at full level. that will answer a lot.

Yes, during the high temp situation, I did have to add coolant from time to time.

Bird of Prey 94
05-12-2009, 08:20 PM
This problem seems to happen more often as the tbirds get older.

There are a number things needed to maintain the proper engine temperature.

The obvious:

1. Unobstructed and leak free radiator. That is one that allows the coolant to pass through freely. Residue builds up over time and eventually the rad has to be replaced. (I've tried to clean/patch these things multiple times. In the end, a new rad was the best solution.)

2. Working water pump and unobstructed coolant passages.

3. Good thermostat. I use the stock 192 - 195 without any bleed holes or rivets. Those actualy result in underheating.

4. Good temp guage sender (often listed as a temperature switch) with clean and snug connections.

5. Good working fan. The operation can be checked with a KOEO test or by turning on the A/C. Obviously the A/C must be working.


The not so obvious:

6. Good radiator cap.

7. Overflow tank must have/keep coolant at the low level with a cold engine and the level must rise when its hot. This indicates that the pressures are cycling as they should and that air has been completely purged from the system. It usually takes 4-5 heatup/cool down cycles to get it settled.

8. Heater core lines must allow coolant to flow freely. The ECT sensor sits on top of the outlet which feeds to the heater core. Coolant needs to flow through the lines and over the sensor tip.

9. Good ECT sensor. I've tested all of mine with an thermometer and Ohm meter on the stove and all are within spec. Of all the ECTs I've tested, I've never run across a bad one; however I still have a fan control problem... which leads us to.

10. Good EEC and wiring. The EEC turns the fan on/off for cooling and A/C operation. I was able to confirm that the ECT sensor is read by (simple) A/D circuitry on the board using a 5 volt VRef.

11. Good IRCM. The EEC switches 2 relays in the IRCM box. The wiring to the IRCM is typically where you can intercept and wire in a manual fan control switch.

The non-obvious:

12. Clean connections. The ECT connector, the engine wiring harness, and the connection at the EEC are all subject to resistance changes due to dielectric grease breakdown and pin surface corrosion with age.

It is my belief that #12 is probably the most obscure cause of overheating. Most of us have working fan... working IRCMs (fan runs with A/C on), working ECTs, working EECs (engine operates and passes emissions tests), good coolant, etc.. what we don't know is how many K-Ohms are introduced by the dielectric grease over the pins.. Any increase in resistance will cause the EEC to think the temp is lower than it really is.

And lastly, the most non-obvious:

13. Good voltage regulation on the EEC. Vref should be 5.0 probably to within 10%.

I'm thinking #13 may also be a major culprit. I'm going to be checking this out later. :cool:

Thank you for this detailed and very useful information. You gave me a lot of guidance to explore. By the way, is the Constant Control Relay Module Connector (CCRMC) the harness that plugs into the IRCM you mentioned? What does K-Ohms and Vref mean?

Young-SC-Owner
05-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Thank you for this detailed and very useful information. You gave me a lot of guidance to explore. By the way, is the Constant Control Relay Module Connector (CCRMC) the harness that plugs into the IRCM you mentioned? What does K-Ohms and Vref mean?


K ohms is- thousand ohms
Example: Sally's wire had 2k ohms. (2000ohms)

Vref is- Voltage reference, commonly known as reference voltage

Example: Joey's Supercoupe's EEC uses a 5v reference on the sensors.

fturner
05-12-2009, 09:45 PM
Thank you for this detailed and very useful information. You gave me a lot of guidance to explore. By the way, is the Constant Control Relay Module Connector (CCRMC) the harness that plugs into the IRCM you mentioned? What does K-Ohms and Vref mean?

I'd just question #3 with the little hole in the tstat. I have yet seen a car overheat just because of that little hole.

Except for one tstat I installed, everyone of them have had a little hole in them and my car has never overheated. The one that didn't have that hole was a major pain in the arse because it wouldn't bleed the air off, so I actually drilled a small hole in it and that problem was resolved.

Fraser

TbirdSCFan
05-13-2009, 11:44 AM
I'd just question #3 with the little hole in the tstat. I have yet seen a car overheat just because of that little hole. Should be underheat, not overheat. My best replacement thermostat, so far, is the Stant superstat which has no bleed hole. I (foolishly) drilled a small hole in it anyway :rolleyes: thinking it needed one... the engine would not heat up enough.. I removed and plugged said hole with a small sheet metal screw and it regulates the temp just as its supposed to now. :)

As for burping the air, 2-3 heat up/cool down cycles, keeping the overflow tank refilled, seems to take care of it.

TbirdSCFan
05-13-2009, 11:50 AM
OK, I checked Vref and it was 5.2V.. :confused: Well, actually it was 3.8V with the engine off which doesn't entirely make sense to me as the battery 12V feed has way more than enough to feed the EEC.. it should have been 5V in both cases to me. But none-the-less, it was correct with the engine running.

Any suggestions? I'm about ready to get the soldering iron out and go at it on the mother board.. :eek: If ECT is being misread, then ACT is also wrong.. because both sensors feed into the same A/D chip. Anybody have access to the specs on the A/D chips?

Bird of Prey 94
05-13-2009, 09:07 PM
I'd just question #3 with the little hole in the tstat. I have yet seen a car overheat just because of that little hole.

Except for one tstat I installed, everyone of them have had a little hole in them and my car has never overheated. The one that didn't have that hole was a major pain in the arse because it wouldn't bleed the air off, so I actually drilled a small hole in it and that problem was resolved.

Fraser

After several attempts to achieve the right temp with the thermostat which is 195 degree, replacing the ECT temp sensor, flushing and putting new coolant in, as well as adding a product from Gunk called Liquid Kool Super Coolant Optimizer which was still not getting any cooler, I decided to focus on the rad cap which is a 16 pound rating. I noticed the spring in the rad cap was too tough so I cut the spring down and got some positive results. I noticed after weakening the spring, the pressure build-up in the rad started to release and go into the recovery tank hence bringing down the temp a satisfactory level between N and M. However, I am not sure if I could be creating a new problem. Any thoughts?

David Neibert
05-15-2009, 01:56 PM
I decided to focus on the rad cap which is a 16 pound rating. I noticed the spring in the rad cap was too tough so I cut the spring down and got some positive results. I noticed after weakening the spring, the pressure build-up in the rad started to release and go into the recovery tank hence bringing down the temp a satisfactory level between N and M. However, I am not sure if I could be creating a new problem. Any thoughts?

Lowering the cap pressure should not cause the motor to run any cooler, but it does lower the boiling point for the coolant. BTW, what kind of coolant temps were you seeing prior to the recent over heating ?

David

Bird of Prey 94
06-17-2009, 08:35 PM
I just wanted to get back to the club with an update, after several exploratory adventures and the welcomed advice from the club members into solving my high temperature problem, I finally isolated the problem down to the cylinder heads. As many of you may be aware, with the 3.8L V6 the “heads” are the weak link of the system.



It was the moment I feared coming to that conclusion. After buying the remanufactured parts I was able to do the job myself. It was scary in the beginning but I was able to soldier my way through with my mechanical abilities but nevertheless this was my biggest challenge. Due to my full time job, I only had the weekends to work on it so it took me 3 full weekends and the help of one of my very knowledge mechanic friends. When I cranked it up for the first time I felt a sense of self worth and accomplishment. However, after completion of the job, I now understand why the mechanics are charging a lot of money for this type of work



So I would just like to thank all the club members for your advice and help.



Bird of Prey 94