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ricardoa1
09-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Well it was not long till the car get a way of getting on my nerves.

The starter issue is back. Ive been at fixing this for a while. Ive put on a total of 4 autozone starters on the car, and eventually the problem comes back. The car clicks but the starter solenoid seems to not have enough power to slide the starter gear into the flywheel gears and mesh so the starter can then crank. It seems to click and I have to rock the damn car back and fourth in gear so I can align the flywheel with the starter gear. It has done it once or twice the past year or so not so annoying. But its back and every time I get into the car I have to get out and start rolling back and fourth.

Now I keep thinking its the solenoid on the starter. Remeber I have a 94 and I dont have the relay solenoid thats on the fender. To be honest I dont even know where that relay is on my car. Ive changed the red wire pigtail and like I said several starters. Dave took out my alarm kill switch thinking that was the problem. And by chance or a miracle, either by replacing the engine and moving the wires around it seem to have fixed the issue for a period of time.

Doing research some say its a bad ground. Either from the starter to the battery or related area, or its the ground at the motor mount to the frame rails. Some blame the battery terminals, Others change the starter and it fixes it. Hitting the starter with a mallet did the trick in past times. But not sure hitting it is simply rotating the gear and allowing proper engagement or it moves a wire a certain way. Ive used heat blankets on the starter and still it manages to go bad. That area gets very hot and I feel like heat aggrevates the problem. Although last summer I rarely had this problem.

So fixes would be appreciated. But remeber that I have a 94 and I dont have that relay sol on the inner fender by the battery like most of you do.

BLOWN38
09-02-2009, 04:17 PM
I seem to be having this problem too. Check how much voltage is at the battery when it does this. I hope my problem was the alternator going bad and slowly draining the batt to where it didn't have enough juice to start the car. I would hook up jumpers and it would fire right up. And finally the alt totally went and I noticed the volt gauge wouldn't go above 12 volts.

So check the alternator if its not new or haven't already checked it.

I just replace the alt on my car so I don't know if it fixed the starting problem yet, but the battery is staying charged now.

ricardoa1
09-02-2009, 04:21 PM
Yeah low voltage causes the same symtoms but the alternator is brand new, if you read my other thread I had a little issue with jumping the car with reverse polarity. After that....

Battery is new and so is the alternator. When the gears in the flywheel and the starter are perfectly aligned there is alot of cranking power so the starter is gettin good cranking power but the solenoid seems to not be getting the same or maybe its damaged.

S_Mazza
09-02-2009, 04:52 PM
I think that the solenoid and relay are integral with the starter on 94+ cars. That's why you don't have one on the fender.

rzibilske77
09-02-2009, 04:54 PM
I think that the solenoid and relay are integral with the starter on 94+ cars. That's why you don't have one on the fender.

this is true

frdlvr30
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
...................

ricardoa1
09-02-2009, 05:08 PM
Yes the solenoid is on the starter, that is why you dont have it on the fender. Do you recall what aftermarket brand you are putting on? New or Reman?


Reman AutoZone Lifetime ones.

frdlvr30
09-02-2009, 05:10 PM
Yes the solenoid is on the starter, that is why you dont have it on the fender. Do you recall what aftermarket brand you are putting on? New or Reman? I have heard of inadequate windings on the Armature causing similar problems.

XR7 Dave
09-02-2009, 08:57 PM
Yes and no. All SC's have the same starter with on-board solenoid, yet the 89-93's have a solenoid on the fender also. Why? Not exactly sure but I think the 89-93 system was superior as it has the ability to provide more current to the solenoid than the 95+ system.

BUT.

1) Someone had an issue with the starter bolts on your car at one point in time and the threads into the bellhousing are all screwed up. In fact the repair resulted in the hole not being 100% where it used to be. Result is that it is possible that your starter alignment is not very good. Don't blame me, it was like that before I got to the car.

2) The solenoid on the starter may not be generating enough "thrust" to engage the starter motor and/or force it's way past the ring gear. Because the 94 does not use a fender relay, the juice for the solenoid comes all the way from the key. This may result in less than ideal current at the solenoid. One way to check this theory would be to jump the posts at the starter instead of trying to start it with the key. If that works better then you might be on to something. You could also check voltage at the solenoid during crank....

3) Don't use starter blankets. That will trap heat in the starter and kill it quicker than leaving it open. If you think the headers are causing a problem, wrap the headers in the area where they pass the starter instead.

4) I have found one of the problems with many reman starters is that they simply are not lubricated properly. I've taken apart starters that didn't work at all, lubricated everything, and had them perform perfectly for years afterward.

Mike8675309
09-02-2009, 10:51 PM
I really believe in finding a local rebuilder for electric motors like starters and alternators and having them rebuild your motor rather than buying off the shelf rebuilt equipment. This gives you someone to talk to when things go wrong, and this also tends to motivate a higher quality of service as they know you now know who they are. And typically the price is the same if not lower.

Both my 90 and 93 have alternators rebuilt by a local shop who also rebuilt the starter being used in my 93. I've never had an issue with the alternators or starters, the one in the 90 over 5 years and daily driven in the summer.

ricardoa1
09-02-2009, 11:10 PM
We can eliminate 1 as a possible problem I swapped all of my late model trans into a eariler case. This was the reason for the swap, you might remember I made a post about it so the starter now has the factory bolts keeping it in place.

I did not put the blanket back on since you gave me the car.





Ok now are we sure that the big gauge power wire that the starter uses is also the one that powers that actuator solenoid. And the small red wire only activates a relay inside the starter? Ive changed the clutch switch and ignition switch in the past to fix this problem and those did not do it. Im thinking the big gauge wire is bad but like I said the starter more has plenty of cranking power. Can it be the terminals id like some testing tips that dont involve special tools like volt meters.

I looked at the repair book and I dont understand how the grounds are wired.

XR7 Dave
09-03-2009, 06:34 AM
That's great that you fixed some of the possible issues.

Ok, the main power wire that goes to the starter is only the power for the motor. That you have good power for the motor tells me that your power cable is ok and your ground is ok. The ground on the 94+ is connected to the bolt that attaches the starter. Earlier cars had the ground on the motor mount at the front drivers. 94's do not.

The small wire that runs with the big power wire is the solenoid wire. There is no relay in the starter, only the solenoid. On the 89's the key only powers the solenoid on the fender which is a low current solenoid, and then the fender solenoid powers the starter solenoid. It's a series system that is capable of really stepping up the current to the starter. On the 94, the key powers all the way down to the solenoid which is why I think this circuit may be suspect. You'd need to attach a volt meter at the connector on the starter solenoid and then watch what you get when someone turns the key. Don't take this for gospel but my gut says you should see 11v or more during attempted cranking. If you only see 5-9v then I would say there is a definite issue with power supply on the solenoid feed.

Duffy Floyd
09-03-2009, 06:55 AM
And to add to what David said....the power for the solenoid runs from the ignition switch through contact 1 and 2 of the clutch pendal switch direct to the solenoid. I would trace out all the connectors in that circuit and take them apart and clean each one and ensure they are fully seated and secure. Other than that there isn't anything to point to (assuming you have good voltage at the solenoid) other than the start itself...again. As David also said, if the starter is not properly lubricated the solenoid even if properly powered may not have enough "power" to consistently engage the starter.

ricardoa1
09-03-2009, 09:54 AM
Ok Ill do some poking this weekend. I also feel like the repair pigtail that ford did a TSB is not properly installed by simply crimping, I think I want to soldier that pigtail on permanently.

SCme94
09-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Interesting.....My 95 has been doing this for years with a Carquest starter on it. I never put together that the solenoid wasn't getting enough push to engage.

BLOWN38
09-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Another thing I noticed on mine, mine is an auto tho, is sometimes i could put it in nuetral instead of park and it would crank. So I thought maybe the MLP switch was going bad. But then that stopped working too. So hopefully the new alt fixes my problem.

Brad Klein
09-03-2009, 12:39 PM
I have the same problem with mine its been doing it for years
I was coming home from Carlisle one year stopped for gas got in the car and nothing I was in a small town in Va on a Sunday everything was closed after about an hour it started the next day I drove from Tenn to Fla and never shut it off we took turns going to the bathroom and getting food

DrFishbone
09-03-2009, 01:09 PM
Being many with the later models are having this problem, I bet the solenoid isn't getting enough voltage...makes sense especially if the circuit is all the way from the ignition switch! :eek:

I'd clamp a test wire to the positive battery terminal and touch the other end on the solenoid terminal. If that works, you found the underlying issue - not enough voltage. I wonder if replacing the ignition switch would help. It's got to be something that wears/degrades over time and causes voltage drop to occur at inappropriate points in the circuit. Does anyone have a EVTM diagram of the starting circuit for this year of T-Bird that they can scan and post?

ricardoa1
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Looks like alot of use late model folks have this problem. There was a problem with this little wire and ford even services with a pigtail. But Maybe its an inadequate ciricuit for a starter solenoid, and although it might have worked great when it was new, over time along corrosion it creates less then ideal current.

Maybe adding a relay similar to a early car will solve the issues and prevent it from happening for some of us. Why would ford get rid of the relay system why was it in place to begin with and then they decided to get rid of it in later cars. Sometimes i wonder.

I also want to go on a limb and say that in the summer time the battery tends to get very hot. When in extreme high a complete charge less then when the car is running in non extreme scenario. For example fans are running full blast when hot before shutting the car down ect.

Pablo94SC
09-03-2009, 02:07 PM
I used to have that same problem on mine and I thought it was due to the summer heat and the fan running and drawing too much current when I tried to start the car (thermo-switch to bypass bad IRCM/hot start). Usually turning the fan and all other electronics in the car off would let it turn over.

What I believe has fixed the problem was replacing the negative battery cable. Mine looked like the typical cable with some corrosion at the wire on the terminal. Then after sitting for three years, the terminal connection corroded to the point of falling off so I had to replace it. Problem has not come back since and I'm using the same starter I've had since... well to be honest it's either factory or I put it on so long ago (8+ years) I forgot I replaced it.

Nothing else that's been changed should have any effect on the electrics (new engine, trans, flexplate, and converter), and I've been driving it in the summer heat and humidity of Memphis. It's worth the $20 or so to change it and see if that makes a difference.

Edit: You also get one of those rubber terminal covers when you get the new cable. Free engine dress up!! :D

DrFishbone
09-03-2009, 02:51 PM
I used to have that same problem on mine and I thought it was due to the summer heat and the fan running and drawing too much current when I tried to start the car (thermo-switch to bypass bad IRCM/hot start). Usually turning the fan and all other electronics in the car off would let it turn over.

What I believe has fixed the problem was replacing the negative battery cable. Mine looked like the typical cable with some corrosion at the wire on the terminal. Then after sitting for three years, the terminal connection corroded to the point of falling off so I had to replace it. Problem has not come back since and I'm using the same starter I've had since... well to be honest it's either factory or I put it on so long ago (8+ years) I forgot I replaced it.

Nothing else that's been changed should have any effect on the electrics (new engine, trans, flexplate, and converter), and I've been driving it in the summer heat and humidity of Memphis. It's worth the $20 or so to change it and see if that makes a difference.

Edit: You also get one of those rubber terminal covers when you get the new cable. Free engine dress up!! :D

No doubt it's a cumulative problem in many cases - a bad main ground cable could cause a major portion of the problem early in the circuit though - that's for sure! I think the weak point of the later models, based on the details in the thread thus far (in other words, I haven't seen the wiring diagrams yet!), is that the starter solenoid circuit is simply too long with to many points where voltage drop could be introduced. The early cars (I believe) have a much shorter path from battery to starter solenoid (on the starter), with less contacts, terminals, etc. to go through (like ignition switch, any connectors, and so on), therefore, the voltage isn't as likely to have dropped elsewhere in the circuit before it gets to the starter solenoid on the starter. If the voltage on a solenoid isn't high enough, the solenoid contacts will "bounce" - just like when the battery itself has been drained - which is exactly what the clicking noise is.

ricardoa1
09-03-2009, 03:48 PM
Cables seem cheap enough to just change. I might just pick up a set positive and negative cables, The car is old so one more thing to eliminate. Then Ill soldier the small red/blue trigger lead pigtail that I replaced.

If this does not help then Ill yank out the relay from the parts car and make myself a self a relay system. If that does not do it then Im burning the stupid thing.

nightcoupe
09-03-2009, 06:51 PM
I had a problem with a new starter not wanting to engage exactly right on 5 speed car. Was really scrathing my head at the parts house and the old parts guy said well, you can wait til tomorrow and try another starter or for some strange reason these things are sometimes needed on Fords too to make everything happy. He thru a "Help Packet of Starter Shims" for $5 on the counter. He admitted that it shouldnt need them but he had gotten feed back they work on occasion. Sure enough, I took the $5 gamble and presto that starter loved engaging the flywheel. Has ever since. It was about 1/8" thick which for some reason helped. May give the starter that much of a head start and momentum in its movement before it has to the engage the flywheel and do work. May help..

BLOWN38
09-03-2009, 08:20 PM
Well mine seems to be doing well now. Alts been on for 2 days and the batts still charged and cranks right up. Hope you get yours figured out Rico. I think my old starter is still good if you wanna borrow it?;)

S_Mazza
09-04-2009, 10:05 AM
That's odd - I never saw those starter shims used too much on Fords. Chevy cars seem to use them a lot because the starter mounts from the side and the gear tooth alignment can easily be off. Maybe you're right and it allows the solenoid to get a "running start" at the flywheel!

David Neibert
09-10-2009, 11:31 AM
Ricardo,

Ran across this article that might be helpful.

http://www.p71interceptor.com/starter/solenoidspadeterminal/

David

ricardoa1
09-10-2009, 12:17 PM
Thanks David I was reading that yesterday someone from TCCOa posted a link.

How can we convert to a Eyelet style trigger. I wonder what solenoid to buy? The slide butt style connector is def a less then adequate connection and I see that ford knows this and so does the aftermaket rebuilders that they are now supplying parts with the updated solenoids.
I ordered some red Battery cable and will pick up a negative and would like to do it all at the same time.

David Neibert
09-10-2009, 01:16 PM
Thanks David I was reading that yesterday someone from TCCOa posted a link.

How can we convert to a Eyelet style trigger. I wonder what solenoid to buy? The slide butt style connector is def a less then adequate connection and I see that ford knows this and so does the aftermaket rebuilders that they are now supplying parts with the updated solenoids.
I ordered some red Battery cable and will pick up a negative and would like to do it all at the same time.

Several years ago I had intermittent problems with my 91 starting. I just assumed it was the battery because each time I replaced it with a new one, the not enguaging the starter issue went away. Eventually I discovered the real problem was a lose connection on the trigger wire (spade terminal). I cleaned the spade, crimped the female connection for a tighter fit, reinstalled it and haven't had any problems since.

Looks like it would be pretty easy to drill a hole on the spade connection and after changing the wire connector to a ring terminal (crimped, soldered and heat shrink) you could use a small bolt and nut to secure it to the terminal on the starter.

David

DrFishbone
09-10-2009, 02:10 PM
If the spade terminal was the only problem everyone is having, why does it seem that the later model SC's suffer more? (assuming the comments on this thread are not ignoring same problems with the early SC's too) If it were the only problem in the system, I would expect all years would have the same problem, since they all have the spade terminal. Don't get me wrong though, I definitely agree that the spade terminal causes problems (I've had two cars that the problem was fixed by cleaning & squeezing the spade terminal!), but I think the problem may be more involved than just that - if the later SC's have more of a tendency to have the problems described.

Just my thoughts...worthless as they may be! :):p:D Maybe fixing the spade will fix your car though Rico. :)

ricardoa1
09-10-2009, 02:15 PM
If the spade terminal was the only problem everyone is having, why does it seem that the later model SC's suffer more? (assuming the comments on this thread are not ignoring same problems with the early SC's too) If it were the only problem in the system, I would expect all years would have the same problem, since they all have the spade terminal. Don't get me wrong though, I definitely agree that the spade terminal causes problems (I've had two cars that the problem was fixed by cleaning & squeezing the spade terminal!), but I think the problem may be more involved than just that - if the later SC's have more of a tendency to have the problems described.

Just my thoughts...worthless as they may be! :):p:D Maybe fixing the spade will fix your car though Rico. :)

Dave explained why its more prone on the late cars. The Trigger wire the same spade terminal we are talking about, on the later cars comes straight from the ignition and on manual cars has to then go to the clutch pedal switch before going to the starter. That source of power is only marginal IMO. The earlier cars had the trigger wire going to the relay in the fender and that relay gets a direct souce of power from the battery to the starter solenoid. Providing a larger power source. So when components deteriorate the early car still can carry more power to the starter solenoid then late cars can.

BLOWN38
09-10-2009, 02:34 PM
My problem was not fixed by the new alt. I have a new starter with the ring teminal but I put the spade adapter on cause I needed a quick fix at the track. I will put a ring terminal on the trigger wire and see how that does.

ricardoa1
09-10-2009, 02:37 PM
My problem was not fixed by the new alt. I have a new starter with the ring teminal but I put the spade adapter on cause I needed a quick fix at the track. I will put a ring terminal on the trigger wire and see how that does.

Where did you find this starter at?

BLOWN38
09-10-2009, 02:48 PM
Guy next to me at the track had it for a 5.0. Its a Genco brand reman part number 3205. He bought it from Automotive Technicians Alliance in Gilbertsville, PA. List is 182.40. Guy I got it from sells cars and bought it for 107.86 including core. ATA number is 610-473-9390

DrFishbone
09-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Dave explained why its more prone on the late cars. The Trigger wire the same spade terminal we are talking about, on the later cars comes straight from the ignition and on manual cars has to then go to the clutch pedal switch before going to the starter. That source of power is only marginal IMO. The earlier cars had the trigger wire going to the relay in the fender and that relay gets a direct souce of power from the battery to the starter solenoid. Providing a larger power source. So when components deteriorate the early car still can carry more power to the starter solenoid then late cars can.

Right - that's what I was getting at. Fixing the spade won't fix the weakness in the later cars (vs earlier cars) - that was the point I was trying to make. I guess you're probably thinking along the lines of just getting it fixed, while I was wanting find a fix for the later car's system that would make it at least as dependable as the early models. :) If you know the common points to check/clean, then it's not a big deal. I guess it's not so important that the overall starter triggering circuit is more direct, as long as everything in the system is clean / in good shape. Having a stronger starter trigger system might make it seem more dependable, but in reality just puts problems off till a little later.

ricardoa1
09-10-2009, 02:53 PM
Ok thanks. Im wondering when Autozone will get enough complaits that they will phase out the spade connectors for the eyelet style. I can just exhange the one I have.

BLOWN38
09-10-2009, 03:06 PM
I did some checking on Genco site and the one with the stud is spose to be PN 3268. The box i have says 3205 the reciept says the same. I guess you should specify "with later modle ignition stud".

ricardoa1
09-10-2009, 03:14 PM
I just looked on the Autozone website and the duralast gold starters have both the stud or spade connector option. So I will see if I can pick one up and eliminate one more possible issue. :D


Also called them and they have one with the new style solenoid, Ill be picking one up and do the conversion. :)

DrFishbone
09-10-2009, 04:14 PM
I'll remember this next time I have to buy a starter. ;) I don't like the way the spade terminal feels when engaging anyway. :rolleyes:

Mike8675309
09-10-2009, 06:24 PM
For those with rear mount batteries, it's pretty easy to wire something up to run a seperate relay to energize the starter. This company has some kits to do this, as this type of problem with high draw solenoids is common on some GM products.
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml

ricardoa1
09-18-2009, 12:02 AM
I just changed the both cables the starter and upgraded the trigger wire to the eyelet style. There was a big warning letter with the starter explaining the need to convert from the spade connector. I soldered the wire on, big pain but lets hope I dont get to revisit this problem ever again.

The negative cable was a tad short at 78in so get one bigger if you can. the positive was 68in. I dont think I needed cables but oh well its was thirty bux so I changed them.

But what a pain it was to change them Im glad I had the new Kmember if not it would have been even more difficult. Took me about 4 hours to get it done. :mad:

Chris let us know how it works out when you convert it.

BLOWN38
09-18-2009, 12:46 AM
I checked my wire and its crimped with sealing heat shrink. So I didn't do anything with that yet. But I did move the spade around to scrap it in and didn't have any problems today or for the past couple weeks. I'll jack it up higher and swap it to the ring. And check back afterward.

ricardoa1
09-18-2009, 09:19 AM
Yeah I have not had starting issues yet. I hope its a thing of the past for me now. Cranks faster now IMO.

DrFishbone
09-18-2009, 09:30 AM
Sweet! Higher voltage at the motor = higher cranking speed! :D As long as the current has a good path too...

ricardoa1
09-18-2009, 02:25 PM
I it did it again, It got hot today and a restart it clicked. :mad::o

Gonna go fix that ground at the chasis and see if that is causing issues. Im not happy.

pearl95sc
09-19-2009, 07:45 PM
I've had this problem since 02. Always figured it was just a fluke. Nice to see i'm not alone. I've reterminated the spade connector, added grounds. No luck yet on my end. Optima yellow for battery, 0ga from alt to fuse panel, and 0ga to bat from fuse panel. Healthy battery grounds, and a beefy battery topper for the optima with a volt gauge and 0 corrosion possibility factor.

Good luck ricardo, if you fix it, lemme know. Sux that its a ghost problem and usually doesn't do it when you are lookin to fix it.

BTW, when it does it, if you keep the key forward in teh start position, does it eventually crank? Mine will sometimes.

pearl95sc
09-29-2009, 11:06 PM
CLUTCH SWITCH ! CLUTCH SWITCH ! CLUTCH SWITCH !

A lil story, so follow me here. Since i've been driving my sc more and more, and the weather has been turnin colder, thought i'd get my remote starter workin again. Low and behold, I did a micro relay with smaller wires to bypass the clutch switch back in 2001 when i originally installed it. And when I went to remote start it, I got the click click sound. Thought ~~~! So, clicked the remote start again, but pressed in the clutch pedal, and it started. Worked fine before, so, now knowing more about wiring, and electrical, wired my RS starter output to the starter side of the clutch switch wires. No more click click. I just want to wait til the car does it again on its own to verify that it is the clutch switch itself, but i'm 99% positive, that the problem is in that switch. When the car does the click click again, i'll try the remote start, if it cranks, it is the switch.

ricardoa1
09-30-2009, 08:48 AM
You are supposed to put the remote starter in the starter side wire of the switch other wise you will have to depress the pedal, I suppose I can bypass the switch but the track regulations require a working one and mine was replaced with a new one and it never fixed the problem ].

I am still having issues and getting out of the car to rock it back and forth is a pain. I would like too try a relay at this point not sure what else too do.

DrFishbone
09-30-2009, 09:25 AM
I am still having issues and getting out of the car to rock it back and forth is a pain. I would like too try a relay at this point not sure what else too do.

Have read the thread for awhile...but have you tried a switched wire direct from the battery to the solenoid coil? If that works fine, at least you know for sure that it's the triggering circuit with the problem. It'd be easier to try that first than go through installing a relay. Were you thinking of using the existing "trigger wire" for the new relay coil, then routing a separate wire from the battery to the starter solenoid coil?

drlance
09-30-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm going to relate how I fixed my starter probs on my 89..... Even though it appears I have a different (Better??) way of triggering the starter.
When mine went out, I bought the 'Autozone gar-on-teeeed forever and ever and ever, Amen' starter. In a 3 month period, I replaced it 3 times! Once in a water puddle at WalMart! So-o-o-o, I asked for a BRAND NEW Starter! Paid the price difference aqnd went home to put it in.
It installed the same. However, it cranks much, much faster than ANY of the 3 remans and it works perfect in heat, cold, 95 Degr or 41 degrees (Don't know about winter yet....)
And the best part is I haven't had to change a starter since April!!! It even starts with the A/C on!!
So maybe it's the reman starter. Just my thought on this perplexing problem.
Lance

ricardoa1
09-30-2009, 10:47 AM
Have read the thread for awhile...but have you tried a switched wire direct from the battery to the solenoid coil? If that works fine, at least you know for sure that it's the triggering circuit with the problem. It'd be easier to try that first than go through installing a relay. Were you thinking of using the existing "trigger wire" for the new relay coil, then routing a separate wire from the battery to the starter solenoid coil?

The problem is that it is intermitten, and if I hard wire the trigger I would have to run that test for a while. Yesterday it did it twice, today once. So its not very consistent.
I was planning on running the stock trigger to activate the relay and have a large gauge wire powering the solenoid from the relay.

DrFishbone
09-30-2009, 01:15 PM
The problem is that it is intermitten, and if I hard wire the trigger I would have to run that test for a while. Yesterday it did it twice, today once. So its not very consistent.
I was planning on running the stock trigger to activate the relay and have a large gauge wire powering the solenoid from the relay.

Do you think it's intermittent just because of the flywheel position or electrically intermittent?

Sometimes, don't you wish stuff would just BREAK? :rolleyes:

Dr Lance! Are you coming to the shootout? Looks like I'll be there! :D

ricardoa1
09-30-2009, 01:42 PM
I think because of position of the flywheel. If stop and the flywheel is perfectly aligned the starter has no issues. But if I had stopped at a spot that the gear has to work harder to align on the flywheel then I get a click. I have to get out and roll the car in gear and move the engine abit to get it to go.

90blkbrd
09-30-2009, 02:38 PM
I think because of position of the flywheel. If stop and the flywheel is perfectly aligned the starter has no issues. But if I had stopped at a spot that the gear has to work harder to align on the flywheel then I get a click. I have to get out and roll the car in gear and move the engine abit to get it to go.

So is your flywheel / starter not correctly spaced? Maybe you need shims.

ricardoa1
09-30-2009, 03:25 PM
I doubt it. I already eliminated that possibility after going thru a period of stock flywheels and aftermaket flywheels. It does it regardless. Two different tranny cases ect.

Brad Klein
10-01-2009, 12:20 PM
CLUTCH SWITCH ! CLUTCH SWITCH ! CLUTCH SWITCH !



Nope I have the same problem with my auto

Never tried the rocking back and forth to see if that works but right now it really on moves out of the garage and back in so I havent had a problem yet

ricardoa1
10-01-2009, 01:23 PM
Nope I have the same problem with my auto

Never tried the rocking back and forth to see if that works but right now it really on moves out of the garage and back in so I havent had a problem yet


Rocking thing I would think only works on Manual cars.

drlance
10-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Hi Matt!! (Dr Fishbone)
Sorry, I have to be at a seminar in Chicago this weekend, although I will be picking up some SC parts while I'm there.
Glad you can make the shootout. Cool weather, some rain = Green track and extra HP!!! Should see a LOT of tire smoke this coming weekend!!!
Have fun and post your times!!
Lance

ricardoa1
03-18-2010, 10:58 AM
So I took off the Snow kit and my Miata battery out, among other things like H2O, long story I dont care to share. :rolleyes: And went back to the stock size battery. And the darn starter problem still there at times. This issue is so frustrating, and embarrasing. Im afraid of taking people in the car because if it not starting. Then I gotta explain why I am rocking the car back and forth in gear. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad:

Are the starters from the earlier cars the same. Im tempted to try the starter from the anniversary.


Ill have to put back the snow kit. My car pings without it. 19psi, 24deg and 93octane is not enough to keep detonation down, weird though the car is running rich with the new 60# but I still hear pinging at times./

David Neibert
03-18-2010, 12:41 PM
So I took off the Snow kit and my Miata battery out, among other things like H2O, long story I dont care to share. :rolleyes: And went back to the stock size battery. And the darn starter problem still there at times. This issue is so frustrating, and embarrasing. Im afraid of taking people in the car because if it not starting. Then I gotta explain why I am rocking the car back and forth in gear. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad:

Are the starters from the earlier cars the same. Im tempted to try the starter from the anniversary.


Ill have to put back the snow kit. My car pings without it. 19psi, 24deg and 93octane is not enough to keep detonation down, weird though the car is running rich with the new 60# but I still hear pinging at times./

Not uncommon to run rich and still get detonation. What plugs are you using ?

David

ricardoa1
03-18-2010, 01:53 PM
Not uncommon to run rich and still get detonation. What plugs are you using ?

David

Autolites 103s if I remember .35-.40 gap. The snow was simply washer fluid for the street tune. It seems to make a difference though cause it did not ping before. Temps are also cool so seems weird to me. Ive been trying to relocate the snow kit and use an early coolant bottle next to the air filter on my 94. To supply it. I am trying to avoid taking off the bumper to install it, Im trying to find a spot under the K&N filter. I bought some more line at the hardware store to attemp the reinstallation. Car is getting retuned this weekend with some luck.




I noticed the fullsize battery that came from the other car is only a 600CC battery.

So I went to walmart and picked up a 1000cc and 850ca one to see if the juiced up one will do the trick. Wish me luck.

sinhumane
03-18-2010, 03:00 PM
sounds more like a bad starter alignment to me... shim one bolt, try it, and repeat with failure.

my wife went through the same ordeal in her maxima. click click intermittently with a reman... OEM starter and the car's as happy as a nun in a cucumber patch. :)

David Neibert
03-18-2010, 03:00 PM
Autolites 103s if I remember .35-.40 gap. The snow was simply washer fluid for the street tune. It seems to make a difference though cause it did not ping before. Temps are also cool so seems weird to me. Ive been trying to relocate the snow kit and use an early coolant bottle next to the air filter on my 94. To supply it. I am trying to avoid taking off the bumper to install it, Im trying to find a spot under the K&N filter. I bought some more line at the hardware store to attemp the reinstallation. Car is getting retuned this weekend with some luck.




I noticed the fullsize battery that came from the other car is only a 600CC battery.

So I went to walmart and picked up a 1000cc and 850ca one to see if the juiced up one will do the trick. Wish me luck.

Ricardo,

Last year Dave suggested I try an NGK plug (#7317) that is one range colder than the 103 for track use, but I never got around to installing them. Might want to see if he thinks they would be a good fit for your motor. I've had the snow system fail to work several times (because of my crappy wiring job) with my old motor and didn't hear any pinging, then again I can't hear much of anything when the motor is running at WOT.

David

ricardoa1
03-18-2010, 05:08 PM
The new Walmart battery was completely dead when I installed it. :mad: What a waste of time and gasoline.

90blkbrd
03-18-2010, 05:25 PM
The new Walmart battery was completely dead when I installed it. :mad: What a waste of time and gasoline.

Did you try charging it?

ricardoa1
03-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Im going to exhange it and make sure I look at the dates of the next one I grab.

ricardoa1
03-19-2010, 01:09 PM
Well about 7-8 cranks so far and the other new 1000 CCA from Walmart seem to be working. No click yet. Ill keep you posted. When I first installed it wanted to click but it then cranked. Ill chuck that one to a non-fully charged battery.

So far so good.......

ricardoa1
04-18-2010, 03:13 AM
I had a problem with a new starter not wanting to engage exactly right on 5 speed car. Was really scrathing my head at the parts house and the old parts guy said well, you can wait til tomorrow and try another starter or for some strange reason these things are sometimes needed on Fords too to make everything happy. He thru a "Help Packet of Starter Shims" for $5 on the counter. He admitted that it shouldnt need them but he had gotten feed back they work on occasion. Sure enough, I took the $5 gamble and presto that starter loved engaging the flywheel. Has ever since. It was about 1/8" thick which for some reason helped. May give the starter that much of a head start and momentum in its movement before it has to the engage the flywheel and do work. May help..

Still fighting this issue going to try your shim idea.

Help #02361

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/drm/02361/image/8/

pearl95sc
04-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Ricardo, just give this a try. Down by the battery, below the fuse panel, there will be a barrel shaped connector with one black wire in it. Splice into it. Keep the free end near the battery. When the starter acts up, pop the hood, and tap that wire too the Positive battery terminal. Make sure you're in neutral with ign on. If she fires, you can rule out the starter. It's worth a try, all I'm sayin.

ricardoa1
04-19-2010, 12:32 AM
Thanks, But I think this one is it. Knock on wood. Knock on wood. Starter shim I think did it. Ten cranks so far and absolutely no signs of clicks. The back of packaging even said..."possible need for shims are=

"Solenoid click"
"Grinding"
"Starter gear not releasing"


Well ofcourse ill keep you updated, I thought the bigger battery was the ticket and the frequency went down dramatically but still managed to do it, either that or the flywheel kept landing on a good and easy spot, I should have played the roulette that week. I think the aftermaket starters are simply not the same as a factory starter and I think this shim lets the gear of the starter get a good throw and allows the gear to spin and find a good flywheel spot. It nails the flywheel.

Ill keep you posted.


My summer list just went down by one. :D

BLOWN38
06-24-2010, 11:23 PM
Ok installed my shims last night. Haven't tried to start the car yet. I also installed a heat shield from a truck aplication that Frdlvr told me about, and also added some reflective tape for good measure. I'll let ya'll know how it all works at the track on saturday.

Hows yours doing Rico?

ricardoa1
06-24-2010, 11:28 PM
No problems here at all. Good luck.

frdlvr30
07-01-2010, 10:27 PM
Ok installed my shims last night. Haven't tried to start the car yet. I also installed a heat shield from a truck aplication that Frdlvr told me about, and also added some reflective tape for good measure. I'll let ya'll know how it all works at the track on saturday.

Hows yours doing Rico?

Just saw this....Sweet, you did listen! That will cure it....Keith should follow this too....And by the way....the generator in the RV was supplemented with a Yamaha IS3000. We left the 8000W original in it. He just wanted a silent one to run the A/c and heat at night with. He told me on the phone that day he was replaceing it....Way too big for anything you need anyway though. Hell that thing would power your house...

BLOWN38
07-02-2010, 10:00 AM
Well, I came back from one run shut it off then tried to start back up. Bumped it over and released key before it started, then tried again and nothing. I will put my original starter back in and see if its just not the el cheapo reman I have in it.

Duffy Floyd
07-02-2010, 10:11 AM
Have had starter issues with both my 92 and 95 recently.

On the 92 I had replaced starter relay hoping that would fix it before Carlisle. Everything was fine until two days AFTER Carlisle when it failed on me in Gettysburg. Fortunately I had my spare Ford Reman with me since I was not convinced I had fixed problem. Took the removed starter into a local MI shop for rebuild and basically EVERYTHING had to be replaced except the field coils (even the armature was bad). Cost me $150.00.

95 failed right before I went to Carlisle. Finally got the starter off at the neighbor's last weekend. This one was taken to the same shop and needed everything replaced except the field coils and armature. Cost me $115 for the reman.

Point being.....I would rather take the starter to a reputable local shop and pay what they want than rely on a reman when I have no idea what was or wasn't done.

Mike8675309
07-02-2010, 02:53 PM
Point being.....I would rather take the starter to a reputable local shop and pay what they want than rely on a reman when I have no idea what was or wasn't done.

x2

After reading of all the reman parts problems folks have here (alts and starters in particular) I found a shop that does a good job. Haven't had one of their rebuilt parts fail yet.

gr8ghost
07-03-2010, 12:56 AM
I replace the starter on my 95. This car was from Masechusettes. The new starter was intermittant as well. So, I pulled the starter and cleaned all the wiring contacts and all the rust/corrosion off the bell housing. It was really bad. I never had another problem since.

Rotaryeccentric
10-29-2010, 06:12 PM
I know this is an old post, but i just wanted to add my testimony to how the starter shim really does work.

I got the starter shim part no. Help #02361 back in August and I haven't had a no-start problem since. I had been scratching my head over this frequent problem since I got the car. If you have a 94-95 manual and the starter clicks until you roll your car back and forth in gear to get the flywheel in alignment with the starter, then try this shim :)

dorramider7
10-30-2010, 04:28 AM
Hi! I'm from London!
Thanks for sharing this information!

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BLOWN38
05-03-2012, 02:12 AM
Well I was looking at mine tonight. Checking all the connections. And I have this to ask anyone that has this problem. Do you have or have had an alarm on the car? If so check the starter interupt circuit. I don't know if this will fix my problem but I have a good feeling it will. All other connections were good and clean, but I cleaned them anyway.

The starter solenoid circuit is a red with blue strip wire from the ignition switch thru the round connector top driver side, to a connector below the engine compartment fuse box. Then from that connector in the loom that goes under the oil filter over to the starter.

If you have the alarm with starter interupt I suggest to solder the wires where you spliced in.

TbirdSCFan
05-03-2012, 10:46 AM
Do you have or have had an alarm on the car? If so check the starter interupt circuit. One way to trouble shoot / isolate the circuit when turning the key doesn't produce anything :confused: is to open the hood and jumper the starter solenoid. Jumper the battery side stud to the small stud. If the problem is in the starter interrrupt circuit or the brake cutout (the stop lamp switch is part of the starter circuit on the 90 model :rolleyes:) then the starter will engage. Then you can work your way back. The interrut relay is buried in the dash frame to the LH side of the steering column. I disabled mine with a jumper wire. Its the same red/blue wire so its rather easy to locate.