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Thomas95SC
10-19-2009, 07:40 PM
I was doing the AR setup back in 05 when Dave just started making them. I was going to couple it with a CRME motor with stage 2 heads. Then MP intake system, FMIC, and snow performance alcohol injection. Never got to put it together though. I ended up buying a house and needed the money to invest in it. So I sold everything :(. Now I have aquired a new SC but wont be doing such drastic mods to it. I was wondering if anyone made good numbers with it and what setup are they using?

XxSlowpokexX
10-19-2009, 08:10 PM
Well I know well into the 400rwhp range with the 1.7 L AR..WIth a claim of over 500 with a 2.2..:O) Now we have 2.2, 1.7 2.4's....A whole bunch of setups out there with bigger and better numbers soon to come

rapper33142
10-19-2009, 08:33 PM
Well I know well into the 400rwhp range with the 1.7 L AR..WIth a claim of over 500 with a 2.2..:O) Now we have 2.2, 1.7 2.4's....A whole bunch of setups out there with bigger and better numbers soon to come

Where can I get one

Mike8675309
10-19-2009, 09:28 PM
Installed a 2.0 AR kit this summer. Still tuning on it and never got to dyno this season. Did get to a track a week or so ago. too cold for good traction so best was a 13.449 @ 111.59 with the appalling 2.377 60 foot time. Started at 275hp before the swap. Gonna guess at a good mid 300hp number now. I'll run it on a dyno in the spring. here is when I first started it.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VFdazsuKlr8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VFdazsuKlr8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

More info in this thread:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109122&highlight=fuel+rail

XxSlowpokexX
10-20-2009, 03:37 PM
Mike I'm sure you have much more to go there. I cant wait till I have my current setup going optimum. It hauls on the highway even with barely any timing. How much boost?

Mike8675309
10-20-2009, 05:31 PM
Mike I'm sure you have much more to go there. I cant wait till I have my current setup going optimum. It hauls on the highway even with barely any timing. How much boost?

I've been having trouble logging it. last time I saw a number it was 19psi but I think the calibration was off on the auxbox as I was mucking with it to try and get it to talk to binary editor.

Micahdogg
10-21-2009, 10:23 AM
AR 1.7 here. I picked up 100 RWHP and over a second in the 1/4 mile. Love it!

tbirdsc357
10-21-2009, 11:34 AM
1.7L AR here also, saw 300rwhp on a stock longblock about 4 years ago when I first installed it, have since added heads and cam and it's around 365rwhp @ 18psi.

It ran 12.2 @ 114mph last year, have since added a better intake and a MP 85mm TB to help it breathe better. I believe it's good for an 11.9X in it's current state.

Been considering adding more boost but I have more usable power than I need on the street.....not much of a track guy.

Kurt K
10-21-2009, 11:34 AM
2.0L AR here, picked up about 60 rwhp (AOD) and knocked .8 seconds off my 1/4.

Ira R.
10-21-2009, 11:57 AM
1.7L AR here. No complaints either. The sig says it all.

Ira

SCme94
10-21-2009, 12:13 PM
I have a 2.0L AR. It makes a cool Woooooooo sound when I punch it.

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 12:16 PM
AR whats that AUTO ROCKET? Not dissatisfied with mine. It turns a SC into a different car. Changes the car from a torque monster with a short rev range to a car with less torque but a long and endless powerband.

nickleman60
10-21-2009, 12:22 PM
I want one....................:D

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 12:27 PM
endless powerband.

Understatement of the year. I swear Rico's car wants to rev to 8k. At ~6000-6500 it is still pulling hard. At least that is what my butt-dyno says. :cool:

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Please where can I get one I can't find one I'm looking for a kit.

neverfastenough
10-21-2009, 12:58 PM
Please where can I get one I can't find one I'm looking for a kit.

The only way to get one is to make over 400rwhp with an M112 and Im sure Rico will get so angry he will sell you his:p

David Neibert
10-21-2009, 01:02 PM
I have a 1.7 AR kit from Dave Dalke that's been on my 91 SC since 2006...it's hands down the best mod I've ever done to the car.

David

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 01:07 PM
The only way to get one is to make over 400rwhp with an M112 and Im sure Rico will got so angry he will sell you his:p

Yep make a M112 do it and ill even trade it straight up. My AR makes a speculated over 400hp but I dont have anything to prove the numbers with.
All i can do is take my 385 number and add my speculated dyno calibration mis-adjustment of 30hp and I get the same 385HP dyno sheet :(

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 01:09 PM
How much is it for one . Is it a bolt on where can I get a kit from what does the kit bring

neverfastenough
10-21-2009, 01:09 PM
Rico, I am going to kevins dyno today, Only difference is 5% more OD, Last pull made was when it was messed up, so I will have an idea of how far it was off.

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 01:13 PM
How much is it for one . Is it a bolt on where can I get a kit from what does the kit bring

The kits are no longer being made by SuperCoupesUnlimited. You must give up a left kidney or a new born to get one. And thats if the world has all the planets aligned. But with enough money you can persuade Ken Wagner to make you a kit using a Whipple 2.3L make principles of the AR applies.

Go turbo and surpass all of us with the AR. Raise the bar up some. :D

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 01:14 PM
Rico, I am going to kevins dyno today, Only difference is 5% more OD, Last pull made was when it was messed up, so I will have an idea of how far it was off.

Sure let me know. But the 5% could add more then we think and assumptions will be made due to different wether conditions ect.

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't know about m112

Toms-SC
10-21-2009, 01:15 PM
I have a 2.0L AR. It makes a cool Woooooooo sound when I punch it.

Woo woooooo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSOSJ68xOBA

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 01:18 PM
You'll have to make one of your own or buy a used one. The last used one to come up for sale (in the forums) was sold in an hour and was ~$3500.

With the right combination <350 rwhp is possible with a M90.

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 01:18 PM
The kits are no longer being made by SuperCoupesUnlimited. You must give up a left kidney or a new born to get one. And thats if the world has all the planets aligned. But with enough money you can persuade Ken Wagner to make you a kit using a Whipple 2.3L make principles of the AR applies.

Go turbo and surpass all of us with the AR. Raise the bar up some. :D

No way this suck lol what sc is a m112

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 01:24 PM
No way this suck lol what sc is a m112

No SC came with one. A few have been modified to have one fit.

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 01:31 PM
No way this suck lol what sc is a m112

We have Eatons M90s and Eaton makes M112s too a larger displacement supercharger use in other applications. In an SC a MPX is probably just as good as a M112 up to about 21 lbs then you have to make custom pulleys and stuff to get more then that the largets avail OD for the MPX is 30%. Thats where I am hoping the M112 will take on at 15% OD the m112 is pushing the same PSI that a MPX does at 25% so put that 30% OD on it and run a race fuel or ethanol and get a water IC and then we can see the M112 put to good use. IF anything the M112 makes lots of torque when iced down.

XxSlowpokexX
10-21-2009, 01:42 PM
So being nomore AR kits are being made does that mean I can ask whatever I want for mine?

Mike8675309
10-21-2009, 02:05 PM
So being nomore AR kits are being made does that mean I can ask whatever I want for mine?

When the economy hit the tank and mine was sitting on a shelf as well as when spending more money on it during installation I was about one power button away from putting it for sale here. I'm sure you could easily get back your initial cost, since the things have become more expensive since they first came out.

As I've already told one person. The issue with getting AR blowers is that there isn't a good supply of them in the U.S. I think there is one company that will sell you one and they are not inexpensive. If you want a twin screw blower today, you're probably better off talking with Whipple as their market is the custom blower market. Kenne Bell is a specific market product, and our cars are not their specific market.

Then you need to find a person to fabricate parts for you. You'll need an inlet plenum that will bolt to the blower. Then a modified intake manifold plenum. An aftermarket bypass valve, and then parts fabricated to make it work. You'll need to modify the intake manifold to fit the blower including under the hood and lining up the drive system. Then you need to customize your fuel rail and then get the engine computer tuned for it all. Not to mention adding proper fuel system components to support it all.

When you look at all that work that needs to be done, and the cost of the main part you can see that the investment needed to bolt a twin screw onto the tbird is significant enough that most people simply won't do it. There are other things you can do to add HP to your car that don't cost near as much.

Micahdogg
10-21-2009, 02:16 PM
How much is it for one . Is it a bolt on where can I get a kit from what does the kit bring

You are in luck, I'm actually selling my 1.7 AR for $50,000. If you want AWD conversion that will be an additional $50,000. Hey, speed costs.

SCrazy
10-21-2009, 02:28 PM
You are in luck, I'm actually selling my 1.7 AR for $50,000. If you want AWD conversion that will be an additional $50,000. Hey, speed costs.

Micah's all heart!!

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 02:30 PM
You are in luck, I'm actually selling my 1.7 AR for $50,000. If you want AWD conversion that will be an additional $50,000. Hey, speed costs.

Ok I will ask my wife lol

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 02:31 PM
You are in luck, I'm actually selling my 1.7 AR for $50,000. If you want AWD conversion that will be an additional $50,000. Hey, speed costs.

Your in luck $50,000 is exactly what I am asking for my vintage 1950's "Hamms" beer neon light. I'll trade you even up and I'll even deliver it in person. I could even throw in a MPx to sweeten the deal.

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 02:38 PM
Man this sucks I can't find nothing no 94-95 blower ,mp2. no AR no M112

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Man this sucks I can't find nothing no 94-95 blower ,mp2. no AR no M112

What's wrong with a MPx?

XxSlowpokexX
10-21-2009, 02:51 PM
Rapper MC,

I'd reccomend finsing yourself a nice m90 from a 94/95 and having it S ported. That along with an MP inlet will be a very nice improvement and with the proper parts get you into the 12's and over 300rwhp

XxSlowpokexX
10-21-2009, 02:52 PM
ORRRR you can buy my AR kit for $3500:O) plus shipping of course. Only 1000 miles or so on it

rapper33142
10-21-2009, 02:58 PM
[QUOTE=DamonSlowpokeBaumann;846768]ORRRR you can buy my AR kit for $3500:O) plus shipping of course. Only 1000 miles or. I can't now hope u have it tax time lol

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 03:10 PM
ORRRR you can buy my AR kit for $3500:O) plus shipping of course. Only 1000 miles or so on it

You are such a tease. There are two people I know off the top of my head one already asked you to sell your spare one. Buy a Shelby so we can have your go fast parts, turn the sc back to stock . :p

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 03:11 PM
I only want $22,000 for mine. Or a 03 Sonic Blue Terminator Vert. :p

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 03:16 PM
You'll have to make one of your own or buy a used one. The last used one to come up for sale (in the forums) was sold in an hour and was ~$3500.

With the right combination <350 rwhp is possible with a M90.

Nine Minutes I believe it was and 3900.00!!!

Edit- It was 13 minutes......
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104193

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 03:49 PM
Nine Minutes I believe it was and 3900.00!!!

Edit- It was 13 minutes......
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104193

Thanks for the reminder, That still on a CC getting bounced around from 0% to 0% LOL

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 03:53 PM
ORRRR you can buy my AR kit for $3500:O) plus shipping of course. Only 1000 miles or so on it

:(



Nine Minutes I believe it was and 3900.00!!!

Edit- It was 13 minutes......
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104193

Okay I was off a few minutes. :rolleyes:


That did include a modified lower intake manifold and enlarged inlet plenum that was about ~$400. (I'd have to go search for the thread where it was originally sold.

rzibilske77
10-21-2009, 03:54 PM
Nine Minutes I believe it was and 3900.00!!!

Edit- It was 13 minutes......
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104193

yes it was quick, i think ricardo sent a pm even quicker before the post.
I still wonder what would have happened if i had it on ebay....bid wars FTW:p

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 03:56 PM
:(




Okay I was off a few minutes. :rolleyes:


That did include a modified lower intake manifold and enlarged inlet plenum that was about ~$400. (I'd have to go search for the thread where it was originally sold.

Oh, I did not know that about the extras....

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 04:00 PM
yes it was quick, i think ricardo sent a pm even quicker before the post.
I still wonder what would have happened if i had it on ebay....bid wars FTW:p

Ricardo,
When I was at the shoot out I took a glance inside your car and saw A JVC-AVX2 head unit didnt I? If so, I have the same one in my SC and was wondering if you have had as many problems as I have, with yours? Mine has been nothing but problems. If it werent such a high dollar head unit I would have ripped it out by now and thrown it out while driving...

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 04:05 PM
Ricardo,
When I was at the shoot out I took a glance inside your car and saw A JVC-AVX2 head unit didnt I? If so, I have the same one in my SC and was wondering if you have had as many problems as I have, with yours? Mine has been nothing but problems. If it werent such a high dollar head unit I would have ripped it out by now and thrown it out while driving...

I have a KD-NX5000 unit
I posted about it some time ago.
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100055&highlight=kd-nx5000&page=2

Other then the unit rebooting itself from time to time when i press a random button, I think is a great unit. The rebooting has not been overly annoying but it does happen.

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 04:07 PM
Oh, I did not know that about the extras....

When I reminded him of the intake and showed him the thread about it, well it didn't make Rico feel any better about the purchase. But my test drive told me it was worth it. :D

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 04:08 PM
I have a KD-NX5000 unit
I posted about it some time ago.
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100055&highlight=kd-nx5000&page=2

Other then the unit rebooting itself from time to time when i press a random button, I think is a great unit. The rebooting has not been overly annoying but it does happen.

Ah, never mind then...Thats what I get for glancing and not taking a longer look....

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 04:13 PM
When I reminded him of the intake and showed him the thread about it, well it didn't make Rico feel any better about the purchase. But my test drive told me it was worth it. :D

Yes I was standing 10 feet away when you left and came back...You were impressed to say the least!!

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 04:24 PM
2008 shootout our cars were nearly equal on the track and the dyno (excluding the N2O). Now his car is completely transformed, it pulls and throws you back in the seat the way I've always dreamed of....

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 04:25 PM
Next shootout Ill offer JoyRide services. 5 minute drive for $20bux. I have to recoup my money some how. LOL

Yes the Randy Baker stage II intake make it a little easier to swallow. Damn supply and demand.

Robert if you had put it on ebay I am almost certain I would not have bid on it. It was a irrational descision on my part, If I had a full week to analyze the expenditure I would not participated. But we will never know LOL :p

To add. I even had a date set up for Dave to start a Turbo kit on my car, If I did not have the AR I would have alredy probably been sporting it and gone up agains WISE for HP at this shootout. You guys did read that his over 500hp with his set up. DROOL

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 04:26 PM
2008 shootout our cars were nearly equal on the track and the dyno (excluding the N2O). Now his car is completely transformed, it pulls and throws you back in the seat the way I've always dreamed of....

Hey Hey I was trapping faster and even chased you down after sleeping at the lights. :p

rzibilske77
10-21-2009, 04:37 PM
Next shootout Ill offer JoyRide services. 5 minute drive for $20bux. I have to recoup my money some how. LOL

Yes the Randy Baker stage II intake make it a little easier to swallow. Damn supply and demand.

Robert if you had put it on ebay I am almost certain I would not have bid on it. It was a irrational descision on my part, If I had a full week to analyze the expenditure I would not participated. But we will never know LOL :p

Dont feel too bad, i had a handful ready to purchase right there right then.
Remember you can pull it and sell and re-coop most of what you paid but what fun would that be.:p

90blkbrd
10-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Hey Hey I was trapping faster and even chased you down after sleeping at the lights. :p

I did say nearly equal...and you were still chasing at the end. :D


What I was getting at is how much your car HAS changed. Although you did change the cam, headers, supercharger, MAF and removed your cats. The overall effect wouldn't have happened without the AR.

David Neibert
10-21-2009, 04:48 PM
When/if I can get my hands on a 2.0 AR, my 1.7 kit will be going up for sale.

David

CMac89
10-21-2009, 04:52 PM
I would like to get a 2.0L AR for my '94. One eleven second SC isn't enough.

XxSlowpokexX
10-21-2009, 05:20 PM
I'd like to see difference of 1.7 and 2.0 on same motor..That be interesting

Micahdogg
10-21-2009, 05:26 PM
I talked to Vin Diesel the other day and asked what he considered an 11 second car to be. It took quite a bit of reflection as he is only accustomed to running 10's. But he said that obviously an 11.99 doesn't count. Even 11.98's or 11.97's don't count. You have to be deep into the 11's to say you have an 11 second car. I asked what he considered to be a real 11 second car to which he replied, "11.71 or better." Anything less is a waste of onion rings.

CMac89
10-21-2009, 05:35 PM
It seems like the onion rings could be burnt if you fall a couple hundredths short. Vin told ME that the only exception is if there's a busted weld on the intake. He told me that while he was eating a 10 inch sub while drinking his Candian 10 ounce Coca Cola Classic at 10PM.

ricardoa1
10-21-2009, 05:42 PM
I got Vin trapped in my car Head Unit. So he wont be making any more 10 second passes.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/ricardoa1/DSC01356.jpg


Willie Wonka told me that a 12 second SC is all you really need and that it takes less then 400HP to do it.

http://onceuponawin.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/win-pictures-willy-wonka1.jpg

frdlvr30
10-21-2009, 05:47 PM
I got Vin trapped in my car Head Unit. So he wont be making any more 10 second passes.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/ricardoa1/DSC01356.jpg


Willie Wonka told me that a 12 second SC is all you really need and that it takes less then 400HP to do it.

http://onceuponawin.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/win-pictures-willy-wonka1.jpg

Speaking of which, our head units are identical. Yours just has Navigation. Mine is only DVD, no Navigation. I did some research. Mine has been a real disappointment. I think I may have got a bad one though. It does all kinds of stupid stuff...

Miller
10-21-2009, 08:09 PM
Automotors are pretty sweet.... you aint cool unless you got that WOOOOOOOOO WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

Thomas95SC
10-21-2009, 08:46 PM
So what happened to Dave making the kits? $3500?!! I think I remember paying $4400 for my setup! Man I wish I had kept my setup. I bet I could have pushed 500hp.

David Neibert
10-21-2009, 09:48 PM
Man I wish I had kept my setup.


Awaiting AR blower and CMRE stage 2 R motor install


So you aren't really awaiting :confused:

David

Thomas95SC
10-21-2009, 09:56 PM
So you aren't really awaiting :confused:

David

Oh, no. I just had my membership reactivated. I haven't changed my sig yet.

ScrapSC
10-22-2009, 10:34 AM
Yeh, whats up with the MPX not getting any love on here? An AR or Whipple is a heck of a blower and does require modifications. But the "rapper" can get his hands on an MPX easilly if he just goes to magnum powers website.

I know I only make a little ole 320hp with my setup.;) Or at least this is what the dyno said last time. :D

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 12:50 PM
Yeh, whats up with the MPX not getting any love on here? An AR or Whipple is a heck of a blower and does require modifications.

:eek:.......I run a MPX and plan on giving all of the AR and Whipple folks a run for their money next year at the Shootout. New cam, big enough to match my massive DD heads, tune and nitrous should make all of them shake in their shoes.......:rolleyes:......Kurt K, I want a rematch..........head ups this time....:D

kenewagner
10-22-2009, 12:54 PM
:eek:.......I run a MPX and plan on giving all of the AR and Whipple folks a run for their money next year at the Shootout. New cam, big enough to match my massive DD heads, tune and nitrous should make all of them shake in their shoes.......:rolleyes:......Kurt K, I want a rematch..........head ups this time....:D


Internet racing:rolleyes:Where do I sign up;)

Ken

ScrapSC
10-22-2009, 01:04 PM
Not much into the Nitrous and how it loves to eat parts.

rapper33142
10-22-2009, 01:05 PM
:eek:.......I run a MPX and plan on giving all of the AR and Whipple folks a run for their money next year at the Shootout. New cam, big enough to match my massive DD heads, tune and nitrous should make all of them shake in their shoes.......:rolleyes:......Kurt K, I want a rematch..........head ups this time....:D

What is a DD head

Kurt K
10-22-2009, 01:29 PM
Kurt K, I want a rematch..........head ups this time....:D
No problem:cool:

kenewagner
10-22-2009, 01:36 PM
What is a DD head

David Dalke prepared Heads

Ken

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 02:14 PM
Not much into the Nitrous and how it loves to eat parts.

Well...........a 75 shot isn't going eat up too many parts, especially one with all forged internals, there isn't no junk in my shortblock..........;)

XxSlowpokexX
10-22-2009, 02:18 PM
I love internet racing..Its all I can afford to do!

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 02:24 PM
Internet racing:rolleyes:Where do I sign up;)

Ken

Sign up, it's fun....................:D

I just look foward to seeing and racing against everyone next year. I want to move up 2 classes so that why I'm playing with the "big boys" on this site. I'm sure I'll get my a** handled to me by someone......:o

David Neibert
10-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Sign up, it's fun....................:D

I just look foward to seeing and racing against everyone next year. I want to move up 2 classes so that why I'm playing with the "big boys" on this site. I'm sure I'll get my a** handled to me by someone......:o

Are you planning to race in Pro Street or Outlaw in 2010 ? If we stay at the same track, I'll most likely be bringing my other car and race in Outlaw.

David

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 03:24 PM
Are you planning to race in Pro Street or Outlaw in 2010 ? If we stay at the same track, I'll most likely be bringing my other car and race in Outlaw.

David

Pro Steet, if everything goes as planned I will be running in the mid 11's. My buddy Roadhawg is shooting for Outlaw class.

frdlvr30
10-22-2009, 03:57 PM
Pro Steet, if eveything goes as planned I will be running in the mid 11's. My buddy Roadhawg is shooting for Outlaw class.

Could we leave the smack talk till Mid-September so you dont jinks us!!! Unfortunately though, Anthony is correct. Eventually, it will eat parts my friend. Forged or not...But think of the fun we will have till then!!

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Could we leave the smack talk till Mid-September so you dont jinks us!!! Unfortunately though, Anthony is correct. Eventually, it will eat parts my friend. Forged or not...But think of the fun we will have till then!!

Hey, I'm having a little fun. The only time I'll run nitrous is at the track which as you know won't be too often. Majority of the time will be just on motor.

David Neibert
10-22-2009, 04:38 PM
Could we leave the smack talk till Mid-September so you dont jinks us!!! Unfortunately though, Anthony is correct. Eventually, it will eat parts my friend. Forged or not...But think of the fun we will have till then!!

Some people can run nitrous for years and never have a problem with it, but I very seldom used it without having a problem. Most of the times when something went wrong it didn't hurt anything and just made my car run slower, other times it damaged stuff.

It was okay when I was racing the car a lot, but after 2006 I only used it about once or twice a year and never knew what was going to happen when I activated it. After trashing the motor last September, I promised myself I'd never use it again, and sold the entire system.

I can honestly say that I don't miss it one bit.

David

Mike8675309
10-22-2009, 05:12 PM
The only real downside to the MPX is that you should get your rotor pack rebuilt or at least checked out, and you have to overdrive the heck out of it. Of course, that's not such a downside today with Magnum Powers making overdrive jackshaft, crank and blower pulley combinations. Note that pablon2 is running a MPX and cranking out 12 second runs. http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109362

When I bought the Autorotor, it was the only thing in town... The MPX didn't exist. Now that it does, it certainly deserves a look at by folks looking for some high performance.

nickleman60
10-22-2009, 07:56 PM
When I bought the Autorotor, it was the only thing in town... The MPX didn't exist. Now that it does, it certainly deserves a look at by folks looking for some high performance.

Of course I would love to have an AR but I don't have one so I have to work with what I have. The only way I'll be able to run with the AR's is to run nitrous with the MPX and I'm talking about a full weight car, not gutted out. Who has the fastest MPX car besides Kevins? I'd like to try and be the fastest full weight MPX supercoupe.

Miller
10-22-2009, 09:40 PM
I dont really think that an AR and an MPX are really in the same ballpark. ( with Kevin as the exception of corse ) .. thats alot of OD that you need to run thru it.. They have only been out for how long and how many have self destructed already...

an MPX is a fanciedup mp3..anybody that went from mp3 to AR blew themselfs out of the water...

XR7 Dave
10-22-2009, 10:06 PM
When I bought the Autorotor, it was the only thing in town... The MPX didn't exist. Now that it does, it certainly deserves a look at by folks looking for some high performance.

I don't think that's really 100% accurate Mike. I offered the 2.0L AR kits for sale in July, but didn't take any deposits until after the first of the year. It was during this time that the MPX hit the shelves. We completed testing of the MPX at 25% OD making 390rwhp prior to any 2.0L AR's even being ordered. Kevin had already run 11.30's with his car in a form that could still be considered somewhat street - it had IRS, mufflers (sort of, haha) and I think a stock K-member still at that time. He made somewhere north of 360rwhp at the time, so did Dan Sly and Mark Kovalcik.

Now if you want to compare the performance potential of an M90 roots vs. a 2.0L twin screw, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. In that case you might as well compare the 2.0L twin screw to a turbo.

Anyway, no blower (or turbo) is a power adder IMO. Boost is the power adder. It doesn't matter what you use to make boost, but you have to make the boost first before you can make power. 15-17psi is OE M90 territory. 20psi is MPX territory. If you aren't running your twin screw well over 20psi you are just taking it easy.

Of course regardless of what boost motivator you have, running 20+psi requires good fuel and proper tuning. Herein lies the weakness of most combinations, historically speaking.

Miller
10-22-2009, 10:10 PM
So if you don't recomend injection in certain cases, and race gas for beating around town isnt much of an option, it seems it all goes back to the injection as the only solution other then just whimping out on the aggressivness in the tune.. We'v talked of this a bit but I am still at a loss I guess.. From what Im reading out of this is, deal with the stock timing + 1 or so..

90blkbrd
10-22-2009, 10:10 PM
I dont really think that an AR and an MPX are really in the same ballpark.

They aren't, who said they were? They are a very good alternative if you don't have the deep pockets or manufacturing skills needed to get a AR.


They have only been out for how long and how many have self destructed already...

You overdrive a AR as much as some of these guys are OD'ing a Eaton and they are going to fail. FYI AR's do fail, some only minutes. I'll have to ask the owner if the warranty was ever honored.


an MPX is a fancied up mp3..anybody that went from mp3 to AR blew themselfs out of the water...

I wouldn't use the word fancy, maybe steroids, but not fancy.

Miller
10-22-2009, 10:16 PM
steroids are illegal..

I dont know what im talking about Im just a newbie im lucky if my car runs! I just read alot and think autorotors are cool beans ! Someday I hope to see one!

tbirdsc357
10-22-2009, 10:51 PM
If you aren't running your twin screw well over 20psi you are just taking it easy.
.

Trying to tell me something :D

XxSlowpokexX
10-22-2009, 10:54 PM
I blew an AR up..Eh well...The HUGEST problem with the mpx is that you are using a USED rotor pack and spinning it to numbers a new rotor pack wasnt even meant to spin too...

Im under 20psi with my AR...Thinkin I need a new pulley eh Dave?

CMac89
10-22-2009, 11:01 PM
I'm thinkin the saaaammeee thiiiinggg. 18 PSI is old business.

XR7 Dave
10-22-2009, 11:41 PM
I blew an AR up..Eh well...The HUGEST problem with the mpx is that you are using a USED rotor pack and spinning it to numbers a new rotor pack wasnt even meant to spin too...

Im under 20psi with my AR...Thinkin I need a new pulley eh Dave?

I blew up an MPX - with a new rotor pack! Hell, if you can't blow stuff up you just aren't trying very hard. I like the MPX and I still have one. I think its a great blower and I also think most of you with AR's just aren't doing them justice.

Damon, I'm not sure what "AR" you are referring to, the 2.2L KB or the 1.5L from your old 5.0. Either way, I think that there were extenuating circumstances, also the newer blowers have a number of upgrades, so who knows if the same things apply anymore anyway. So far the AR's that I've been involved with have performed very well. David is running his waayyyyy beyond the recommended redline, granted he doesn't keep it there very long but still, it's the best test mule we've got so far.

I'm not saying that everyone with an AR needs to run crazy OD, I'm just saying that you aren't going to "go where no man has gone before" when you aren't in the 25lb range. For a street driven vehicle or one that is not properly optimized for the track, the difference between an 425rwhp AR and a 350rwhp M90 isn't as much as you might think. We had AR's at the Shootout running 11.80's making 19-20psi along side MPX's making 19-20psi running 12.10's. Other than at the track, could you really tell the difference between the two? The M90 comes on quicker on the bottom end but the AR comes on stronger at the top. Could you really tell which one is quicker by riding in the car? I doubt it.

But what does it take to run 25psi? Are any of you really up for that? I doubt it. Regardless of how you get the 25psi, running that much boost requires a very good tune, some very good parts underneath it, and the proper fuel. That is a combination that very few SC owners are capable of putting together and/or maintaining long term. All too often we see stuff blown up at less than 20psi because of bad parts, faulty tuning, lack of maintenance, or just plain inexperience. People get frustrated, throw things around, and sell their "junk". I don't want anyone to do these things, but it's going to take some doing to get people to the stage where they can handle 25psi and the "stuff" that goes along with it.

That being said, the 1.7L AR is only capable of 25psi up to about 5500rpm with reliability before it runs out of rpm. If someone wanted to take a stock motor and make extreme power with it, I think this would be an interesting challenge.

Since most people already have 6000rpm+ motors, a bigger blower is needed to keep up. No one with a 2.0L has really taken that challenge yet. I think Kurt should be the guinea pig.

Seimens has 80lb high impedance injectors now....

Miller
10-22-2009, 11:51 PM
it seems like that whole thread is full of challanges that my pocket cant take part in just yet.. im at 21psi and 6krpms so clearly im cooler and more balsy then damon.:cool: Im aware of not doing the mighty AR justice, thus my emails on the subject..

I do however, have some cars laying around that I could possibly do the balls out boost test on.. but tuning would be the problem for such a thing, as its hard to get a tune over here in NJ

CMac89
10-22-2009, 11:51 PM
An intercooler is in order really soon for me. I haven't crunched any numbers, but I'm assuming the setup I'm using is capable of over 25psi from being inverted. I can't be a guinea pig because I only relate to one other person. Oh, and I have some of those 79lb injectors.:) Whatever it takes to run 10s is where I'm headed.

I tried to buy Damon's spare AR, but he would rather be a clam burger about it (jaykay!). I was gonna do exactly that; boost the hell out of a stock motor.

seawalkersee
10-23-2009, 04:01 AM
I think I will go to 25 at the track with mine...Of course it is still way down the road.

The build will be 8.5:1 with forged rods and pistons.
4.2 or 3 whatever is available when I get to that point.
Have not even begun to think about the cam
Heads are already ported, but I will probably go with larger valves than I have.
I already have a custom KW intake and the 2.3 whipple.
85mm t-body/ 80 or 90mm MAF (have both to see which one will work best)
Large FMIC with 3" in and out.
3/4 Kooks that I am probably going to modify after seeing K Wagners venture
'luminum flywheel and we will see how long a 5 spd can last.

SWS

nickleman60
10-23-2009, 07:02 AM
Looks and sounds like a few of you on here better be planning on rollbars.................:rolleyes:

Roadhawg
10-23-2009, 07:18 AM
Looks and sounds like a few of you on here better be planning on rollbars.................:rolleyes:

I believe that is going to be one of my winter time projects.......

kenewagner
10-23-2009, 07:40 AM
I think next years shootout will have more cars in mod 3 than mod 2:cool: and a couple more in the next class up as well. Just my crystal ball prediction

Ken

Mike8675309
10-23-2009, 08:14 AM
I don't think that's really 100% accurate Mike. I offered the 2.0L AR kits for sale in July, but didn't take any deposits until after the first of the year. It was during this time that the MPX hit the shelves.


I'm not sure the point of this, but you may not recall, on July 30 of 2006, you asked for commitments to the buy and said you would call them binding agreements. Sure, cash wasn't in hand, but agreements were made at that time, and at that time, the MPX wasn't even on the radar of all but a few SC owners.

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 08:34 AM
Dave,

Do you have any plans to build another batch of 2.0 kits ?

David

Kurt K
10-23-2009, 09:11 AM
Dave,

Do you have any plans to build another batch of 2.0 kits ?

DavidYour car is already faster than mine:rolleyes:

ScrapSC
10-23-2009, 09:25 AM
Of course I would love to have an AR but I don't have one so I have to work with what I have. The only way I'll be able to run with the AR's is to run nitrous with the MPX and I'm talking about a full weight car, not gutted out. Who has the fastest MPX car besides Kevins? I'd like to try and be the fastest full weight MPX supercoupe.

Not gonna happen unless you run nitrous. Because your not going to get by me! ;) Now that is some smack talking.

ScrapSC
10-23-2009, 09:55 AM
I have taken my MPX up to 24 lbs on a couple of runs but had belt slippage issues that caused it to drop off to 19 by the end of the track. I think it was due to the jackshaft belt being "not so new" and the supercharger belt having several runs on it.

I didnt get to log any data on the car at the shootout but would have liked to have seen what kind of boost I was getting out of the new sc belt, new jackshaft belt and "built in the pits MPX" on that day. The car was on a new best run for me when I wimped out and lifted on the run with Kurt to keep from breaking out and still ran a 12.08 at 104mph.... It was the best 1/8th had ever had by .05 (7.64) and also the best 60ft with a 1.64. I am not sure but I think it would have been in the 11.90's and I had been running around 115mph. The car and setup still has more to give with fine tuning and a couple other tweaks. The 300 lb driver needs to lose some weight is one of them!!!! LOL

ricardoa1
10-23-2009, 10:15 AM
The ever changing ideas of this club :confused:

We go from only expecting 350 -400 HP recentrly and now we move to getting into higher boost numbers.

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 10:43 AM
Your car is already faster than mine:rolleyes:

Not enough faster :cool:

David

XR7 Dave
10-23-2009, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure the point of this, but you may not recall, on July 30 of 2006, you asked for commitments to the buy and said you would call them binding agreements. Sure, cash wasn't in hand, but agreements were made at that time, and at that time, the MPX wasn't even on the radar of all but a few SC owners.

Sorry, you are right, I took deposits at the SC Shootout in 2006. Anyway, it's kind of crappy to think that you took the AR because that was the only worthwhile option. The AR was never "the only game in town". It was something I did for some people that was special and custom made. It was never an "off the shelf" item available to the general public. The fact that some people sold theirs and the parts have changed hands several times is sad really since a lot was lost in the translation each time.

David, I will not be building any more 2.0L kits because the blower has been discontinued. What else I might do in the future is up in the air right now.

Anthony, that is the tragedy of you foot lifters. You gave up the opportunity to show everyone what the car could do. You may never have the chance to repeat that run. I've officially forgiven everyone for lifting, but it's not about me, it's about what we are doing as a group. It seems too many people think "there will always be next time". I've given up even driving my own car for several years now to help you guys (all of you) do the best you can. The day is coming when I say phooey on you guys and do it myself.

The way things have been going lately, it may be sooner than later.

Ricardo, it's not about HP, its about what is reasonable to do on pump gas. 18-20psi is max for pump gas. If you try to push more boost than that you are going to either detonate the motor or you'll have to pull so much timing that you won't make any more power. Most likely some of you are detonating your motors to a degree anyway. Looking at the parts that came out of David's old motor is a rather sobering experience, particularly for some of the group who swear they will push their car off a cliff if it breaks one more time. I'm just saying that the AR is more efficient at 23-26psi than an Eaton is at 17-18psi. If we have M90 guys willing to go 24psi, then all you AR guys are pussies for stopping at 20psi. But again, psi is psi. You better have the tune and the fuel to run the big boost numbers. I'm not concerned about Anthony's blower, but I am concerned about his motor looking like David's did after a couple seasons.

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm just saying that the AR is more efficient at 23-26psi than an Eaton is at 17-18psi. If we have M90 guys willing to go 24psi, then all you AR guys are pussies for stopping at 20psi. But again, psi is psi. You better have the tune and the fuel to run the big boost numbers.

David

I'm not uncomfortable with running 24 pounds of boost if I have some race gas in the tank, just don't think the current supercharger is big enough to do it on this new motor.

David

ScrapSC
10-23-2009, 11:24 AM
I have also been adding "race fuel" to my tank in the hopes of keeping the detonation down along with the alcohol injection. I have got to get that quarterhorse hooked up and get data going. I have the LM-1 and Aux right now but need to move on up to the quarterhorse.

Well Dave I am keeping my fingers crossed for the 31st and it not raining to get some runs in. The only way I am going to lift that night is if something comes loose! I do think that some of the issues I had was not clearancing the rotor pack enough at the back of the case. I was definately losing some power due to that! LOL It might seem out there to some on here but my goal has always been 11:60 to 70 for this setup. It can be done without nitrous just have to get the setup right.

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Of course I would love to have an AR but I don't have one so I have to work with what I have. The only way I'll be able to run with the AR's is to run nitrous with the MPX and I'm talking about a full weight car, not gutted out. Who has the fastest MPX car besides Kevins? I'd like to try and be the fastest full weight MPX supercoupe.

Mark Kovalcik's XR7 ran 11.91 with an MPX.

David

ricardoa1
10-23-2009, 01:34 PM
Im not sure the inlet on the MPX can support 24lbs without boost dropping in the higher RPMs. It wasnt untill I ported the inlet to raise the inlet smile that that blower didnt run out of breath in the higher RPMs. Im not sure Anthonys car is just belt slipping, but simply the inlet is not big enough to move the air the rotors demand at that RPM. I could be wrong but I saw boost drops in the MP inlet when I was pushing 22psi it fell to about 19 psi till I ported the blower even further.

ScrapSC
10-23-2009, 02:37 PM
I will make sure I get the logging working on the LM-1 and aux and check the boost levels this time around.

Toms-SC
10-23-2009, 03:29 PM
The day is coming when I say phooey on you guys and do it myself.

The way things have been going lately, it may be sooner than later.



Totally called this. :D

CMac89
10-23-2009, 04:09 PM
The day is coming when I say phooey on you guys and do it myself.

Bring it on, wuss!

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 04:11 PM
Looking at the parts that came out of David's old motor is a rather sobering experience, particularly for some of the group who swear they will push their car off a cliff if it breaks one more time. I'm not concerned about Anthony's blower, but I am concerned about his motor looking like David's did after a couple seasons.


That motor took a licking and kept on ticking.

It was first installed back in 2001 and had less than 400 miles on the motor before driving it from STL to Las Vegas and back (3200 miles). Didn't have a lot of miles on that motor (about 40K), but it had about 120 dyno pulls and a similar number of passes on the track. Throttle hung wide open on the dyno, several nitrous incidents, clogged cats, broken valve springs, blown HGs, ripped out rocker studs, and was bouncing off the rev limiter at least once everytime I drove it. All those 3 gear rolling burnouts probably didn't help either.

Before the AR was even installed in 2006, Chris Wise was telling me we needed to rebuild it. Told him that wasn't happening until it broke. Up until the day it popped on the track (Sept 2008), it was still one of the strongest running motors in this club. I knew it was only a matter of time before it crapped the bed on a nitrous pass (aprox 525 rwhp). If I had ditched the nitrous sooner, I'm pretty sure I could have gotten another couple years out of it.

If this new motor last as long as the old one did, I'll be very pleased.

David

90blkbrd
10-23-2009, 05:00 PM
Team David - Was there ever pictures posted of your old engine tore down?

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 05:12 PM
Team David - Was there ever pictures posted of your old engine tore down?

No..not sure you could tell anything from looking at the pictures anyway. Cam, crank, heads and intake manifold will go on to race another day...rest was junk.

David

PS: Expect Dan Thornberry to make some good power...he's got the heads and intake on his latest motor.

ricardoa1
10-23-2009, 05:20 PM
You are speaking for the 2.0l guys Dave? I was under the impression that the 1.7l is pretty maxed to support 24psi at 6500rpms.

And what fuel upgrades are we talking about to support this boost. Be more specific on your recomendations.

Ehtanol? More Alky? Nobody really likes to be a guinnea pig when they know they are going to break stuff up. Ive considered a 10JS pulley but after Neiberts experiment of changing and not picking more power I am sure here is some urban legengs that came out of that.


On another note, we are speaking 24psi out of an MPX on a frigid day. But at those levels heat produced would be hard to tame even with water injection if the weather is not cool enough.

We all had great numbers at the shooout due to the weather. Bring it up 20degrees and what will happen? How about at 90deg weather. Can the MPX keep the temps down to work miracles at that ambient temp?

XxSlowpokexX
10-23-2009, 05:21 PM
About running higher boost. Now that they have failsafe (well ..) systems that can potentially save our motors if there is an alcohol issue...

Why cant we attempt to tune the alchohol injection for use with higher boost and pump gas? Of course on an allout pass if you are running high boost,unreduced timing and Tuned for Meth on pump gas tand there is an injection issue...BOOOMMM.....But heck havent we blown up here with less!!!!!!!!

David N...I cant see the 1.7 not being able to produce more boost .

Dave D....Do you see the 1.7 as being able to spin more to give lets say David some more boost?..Maybe less engine rpm and more blower rpm!!

nickleman60
10-23-2009, 05:54 PM
We all had great numbers at the shooout due to the weather. Bring it up 20degrees and what will happen? How about at 90deg weather. Can the MPX keep the temps down to work miracles at that ambient temp?

That's where my nitrous comes in, it has a helluva cooling effect on the act temps.

David Neibert
10-23-2009, 05:56 PM
David N...I cant see the 1.7 not being able to produce more boost .


Damon,

I assume it will make more boost by changing the pulley ratios, I just don't know if I'm going to be generating too much heat or consuming too much HP off the crank, or damage the blower doing it. Most of the talk I hear about effeciency of the blower is defined in boost levels. If it's only the boost level that dictates the efficency then I'm well below the point of concern.

I'm thinking those efficency numbers for boost are to be used, with the blower not exceeding the manufacturer's max speed. I have a hard time believing you can just keep spinning the thing faster and faster without negative consequences.

David

Toms-SC
10-23-2009, 06:24 PM
More curious as to how the head is going to stay seated on the block. JB Weld?

XR7 Dave
10-23-2009, 07:45 PM
More curious as to how the head is going to stay seated on the block. JB Weld?

Simple. By keeping the motor out of detonation.

89XR7TD
10-23-2009, 11:01 PM
The day is coming when I say phooey on you guys and do it myself.

The way things have been going lately, it may be sooner than later.

I just want to say that I hope that day doesn't come!!!!!!!!:(:(:(

Tom

XxSlowpokexX
10-24-2009, 01:32 AM
Dave N,

Of course you cant or shouldnt exceed max recomended blower RPM.

SO you tailor your motor around that. If shifting at 6500 rpm maxes out your blower RPM and only produces 18psi..THen yeah a bigger blower may be needed. But if moving your shift rpm lower and raising the OD on your pulley setup produces more boost at a lower max shift point thats another way of going about it. Im sure there are people that play with this all day long to get the perfect combination. I think if you really want to up the ante go with an inverted setup like a few are working on now. Besides all the nonsence our setup air wise has to go through our inlet is very restrictive. Huge gains were found on the v8 cars by increasing the inlet volume and we just cant do that with how we are setup AR wise. I'm sure we would see gains as well. And Im not knocking the current AR setup we have. It just has some limitations as does everything.

CMac89
10-24-2009, 01:52 AM
What are the maximum recommended RPM for the AR's? Since the 1.7L and 2.0L blowers aren't too dissimilar, I assume they carry the same RPM limits.

The Whipple's maximum recommended RPM is 18,000. I stand right at 13,000 RPM at 18psi. I'm sure the boost climbs, though. I really need to get a map sensor to log it.

Super XR7
10-24-2009, 08:02 AM
Another concern with 24+ psi has to be the exhaust system. I would think one would need duel 3" at a minimum in order to minimize back pressure.

Mike

90blkbrd
10-24-2009, 08:46 AM
So far this talk has been about max boost and HP.

What would be our current estimates (manual or auto) that is the safe limit for a daily driven SC on pump gas (91-93 octane) for both a MPx and AR?

For a manual, from what I can tell, it's 330-350 for a MPx and 380-400 for a AR. I'm guessing I'll be told these numbers will be low.

ricardoa1
10-24-2009, 09:27 AM
So far this talk has been about max boost and HP.

What would be our current estimates (manual or auto) that is the safe limit for a daily driven SC on pump gas (91-93 octane) for both a MPx and AR?

For a manual, from what I can tell, it's 330-350 for a MPx and 380-400 for a AR. I'm guessing I'll be told these numbers will be low.

I think you are about accurate anything more is just a plus.


More boost will require us to make some changes, Id like to know details on those changes.

Miller
10-24-2009, 10:13 AM
DD calling us pussies has started a revolution.

XxSlowpokexX
10-24-2009, 12:39 PM
If you think about it your spending all this cash to run the same boost as you were before...Can you blame him?

KwikGSeX
10-24-2009, 01:18 PM
A daily driven SC on pump gas should have no less than 600hp. :D

David Neibert
10-24-2009, 02:20 PM
Dave N,

Of course you cant or shouldnt exceed max recomended blower RPM.

SO you tailor your motor around that. If shifting at 6500 rpm maxes out your blower RPM and only produces 18psi..THen yeah a bigger blower may be needed. But if moving your shift rpm lower and raising the OD on your pulley setup produces more boost at a lower max shift point thats another way of going about it. Im sure there are people that play with this all day long to get the perfect combination. I think if you really want to up the ante go with an inverted setup like a few are working on now. Besides all the nonsence our setup air wise has to go through our inlet is very restrictive. Huge gains were found on the v8 cars by increasing the inlet volume and we just cant do that with how we are setup AR wise. I'm sure we would see gains as well. And Im not knocking the current AR setup we have. It just has some limitations as does everything.

Damon,

I'd have to shift at something like 5200 and that's not happening. Talked with Dave and he thinks the 1.7 is pretty much maxed out on my motor. I'll be upgrading to something larger in the next year or two, but for now I'll just enjoy driving the car.

David

XxSlowpokexX
10-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Well that sucks.....BUT>>>>Id have Dave put something larger and top mounted for ya next time Not so sure the cost of a 2.0 compared to the 1.7 would be worthwhile performance wise

XR7 Dave
10-24-2009, 03:26 PM
David is already spinning his 1.7L to 20,000rpm. I'd like to see someone hitting 25psi without exceeding 17000rpm.

XxSlowpokexX
10-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Dave..Ill do it! Do you think the Meth injection alone can make up for the octane needed?..Ill throw the car on a dyno and see where my powerband is..Then maybe we can figure it out. Seriously. Before I swap combos

CMac89
10-24-2009, 06:31 PM
David is already spinning his 1.7L to 20,000rpm. I'd like to see someone hitting 25psi without exceeding 17000rpm.

Holy poop! I'm at 18'ish PSI with 13000RPM already. With 4000RPM on the table, 25 PSI should be more than doable. Damon, Mike, and I are in our own little territory, but if we want people to play the high boost game, either the non-inverted guys need larger blowers than what has been experimented with, or the inverted setups will be the voice of reason.

frdlvr30
10-24-2009, 06:52 PM
Holy poop! I'm at 18'ish PSI with 13000RPM already. With 4000RPM on the table, 25 PSI should be more than doable. Damon, Mike, and I are in our own little territory, but if we want people to play the high boost game, either the non-inverted guys need larger blowers than what has been experimented with, or the inverted setups will be the voice of reason.

Blue is really going to fly now.....May want to weld the sunroof in instead of the tape I saw at the shootout!! It may pop out...LOL

Miller
10-24-2009, 07:06 PM
you cant weld plexiglass. the blue turd holding it down.

you refered to damon as in the same territory as you and mike...?

XR7 Dave
10-24-2009, 07:45 PM
you refered to damon as in the same territory as you and mike...? If you consider the USA the same territory.... :/

I think he meant "Damon, (pause), Mike and I are in a different territory."

CMac89
10-24-2009, 07:55 PM
I was talkin about his 2.2 AR setup.

Super XR7
10-24-2009, 08:14 PM
:D
Holy poop! I'm at 18'ish PSI with 13000RPM already. With 4000RPM on the table, 25 PSI should be more than doable. Damon, Mike, and I are in our own little territory, but if we want people to play the high boost game, either the non-inverted guys need larger blowers than what has been experimented with, or the inverted setups will be the voice of reason.

Don't forget about Ken, he has a new motor and a 2.3 Whipple.

CMac89
10-24-2009, 08:21 PM
Ken, do you mind posting the pulleys that you're running and what boost you are currently seeing?

XxSlowpokexX
10-24-2009, 08:31 PM
I still have a ten rib whipple pulley lyin around...Not that anyones goin ten rib.....But if ya are

kenewagner
10-24-2009, 08:40 PM
Ken, do you mind posting the pulleys that you're running and what boost you are currently seeing?

Am running 22 lbs of boost. SC pulley is 3.5" with a 5% jackshaft pulley and stock size crank pulley. Never tuned the car after installing the blower other than checking the AFR to be safe and running 100 octane to be on the safe side

Ken

Super XR7
10-24-2009, 08:48 PM
Am running 22 lbs of boost. SC pulley is 3.5" with a 5% jackshaft pulley and stock size crank pulley. Never tuned the car after installing the blower other than checking the AFR to be safe and running 100 octane to be on the safe side

Ken

Ken is that the new motor? What size is your exhaust?
Mike

frdlvr30
10-24-2009, 09:10 PM
[QUOTE=MrTBIRDNEWBIE;847721]you cant weld plexiglass. the blue turd holding it down.
True....I did see him run a Mid 12 second run I believe...Not bad for a car that wouldnt even run the day before with out the Maf unplugged....

Miller
10-24-2009, 09:22 PM
Well he learned to tune it the night befor with Micha and that skinny fellow. It musta been the plexiglass that did it.

CMac89
10-24-2009, 09:32 PM
Am running 22 lbs of boost. SC pulley is 3.5" with a 5% jackshaft pulley and stock size crank pulley. Never tuned the car after installing the blower other than checking the AFR to be safe and running 100 octane to be on the safe side

Ken

So you're running around 3-4 more PSI than I am. My pulley combo is a stock crank pulley, the 1:1 JS pulley, and a 3.75" blower pulley. My drive ratio is 1.82 and Ken's is 2.52. At 6000RPM, Ken's blower is spinning at 15,100 RPM and mine is 11,000 RPM. To put that all in perspective, a standard .250" pulley change will net a Whipple of 2-3 PSI. That's a drive ratio change of .13.

Ken is running about 3.5 pulley changes more than I am at the same drive ratio to get identical boost numbers. I estimate that I'll run around 28 PSI at 2 PSI per pulley change with the same drive ratio as Ken is running now.

Ken can reach at least 25 PSI by 17,000RPM

kenewagner
10-25-2009, 11:29 AM
Ken is that the new motor? What size is your exhaust?
Mike

No it is with the stock long block with a very mild cam and mild ported big valve heads. The new motor is Forged Diamond pistons, Scat H beam rods, a wild cam and a lot better heads. I am adding Kooks headers as well. I am waiting for Dave to make a few recommendation on the motor as to what other changes are made. With a quick change pulley I thought it should be easy to run 22 or so lbs of boot for the dyno or racing and swap back to a bigger pulley for just driving around. Exhaust is dual 21/2" in to a resonator single 31/2" out going back to (2) 31/2" mufflers and necked down to 27/8" tail pipes. Kind of a strange combination but it what I had for materials to work with. The old motor is already sold, just have to get it out. Unfortuniately right now I have a blower project for someone else I have to finish before getting back to my car. I have all winter to get it together and as Casey saids "Get it done"

Ken

rapper33142
10-26-2009, 12:43 PM
No it is with the stock long block with a very mild cam and mild ported big valve heads. The new motor is Forged Diamond pistons, Scat H beam rods, a wild cam and a lot better heads. I am adding Kooks headers as well. I am waiting for Dave to make a few recommendation on the motor as to what other changes are made. With a quick change pulley I thought it should be easy to run 22 or so lbs of boot for the dyno or racing and swap back to a bigger pulley for just driving around. Exhaust is dual 21/2" in to a resonator single 31/2" out going back to (2) 31/2" mufflers and necked down to 27/8" tail pipes. Kind of a strange combination but it what I had for materials to work with. The old motor is already sold, just have to get it out. Unfortuniately right now I have a blower project for someone else I have to finish before getting back to my car. I have all winter to get it together and as Casey saids "Get it done"

Ken
Can u make some more wipp setups and if u did how much

kenewagner
10-26-2009, 12:58 PM
Can u make some more wipp setups and if u did how much


I will probably do another one some day but not right away as my winter is full up with another blower set up for a SCCoA member and a new engine for myself. Next year, who knows

Ken

rapper33142
10-26-2009, 01:10 PM
I will probably do another one some day but not right away as my winter is full up with another blower set up for a SCCoA member and a new engine for myself. Next year, who knows

Ken

What tape blower setups will u be making if u can say

90blkbrd
10-26-2009, 01:49 PM
What tape blower setups will u be making if u can say

He can't but I can. Neibert is going to kill me for letting his secret out of the bag.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6411/camaro1hn0.jpg

XxSlowpokexX
10-26-2009, 02:38 PM
Man if that car ever let down after a wheelie hahaha

frdlvr30
10-26-2009, 02:59 PM
OMG....how do you see around that thing? What kind of blower is that thing?

92sclikenew
10-26-2009, 03:05 PM
OMG....how do you see around that thing? What kind of blower is that thing?

or better yet, is it even real?

90blkbrd
10-26-2009, 03:08 PM
There is a video somewhere of it running.

Micahdogg
10-26-2009, 03:13 PM
It's real and the blower was from a locomotive. I thought I heard it blew the HG's while trying to make a run.

Can you imagine trying to pass tech with that thing?!?!

XR7Kurt
10-26-2009, 03:26 PM
I'd like to see the pulley driving that thing.

Micahdogg
10-26-2009, 03:53 PM
I'd like to see stopping in that thing....it would probably look kinda like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapJiMceklA

frdlvr30
10-26-2009, 04:07 PM
It's real and the blower was from a locomotive. I thought I heard it blew the HG's while trying to make a run.

Can you imagine trying to pass tech with that thing?!?!
Sounds similar to the guy that strapped the JATO rocket to the car aout in the desert years ago....

Mike8675309
10-26-2009, 11:00 PM
Sounds similar to the guy that strapped the JATO rocket to the car aout in the desert years ago....

Mythbusters did it to an impala:
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frdlvr30
10-26-2009, 11:46 PM
Mythbusters did it to an impala:
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No Mike, This is the one I was talking about. Yes I have seen that episode of Myth busters. Those were 1500lbs of thrust. No where near what this guy used.....

Here is some text from the story. I believe this was around 10-11 years ago in the Arizona desert....

The Arizona Highway Patrol were mystified when they came upon a pile of smoldering wreckage embedded in the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve. The metal debris resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it turned out to be the vaporized remains of an automobile. The make of the vehicle was unidentifiable at the scene.
The folks in the lab finally figured out what it was, and pieced together the events that led up to its demise.
It seems that a former Air Force sergeant had somehow got hold of a JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off) unit. JATO units are solid fuel rockets used to give heavy military transport airplanes an extra push for take-off from short airfields.
Dried desert lakebeds are the location of choice for breaking the world ground vehicle speed record. The sergeant took the JATO unit into the Arizona desert and found a long, straight stretch of road. He attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, accelerated to a high speed, and fired off the rocket.
The facts, as best as could be determined, are as follows:
The operator was driving a 1967 Chevy Impala. He ignited the JATO unit approximately 3.9 miles from the crash site. This was established by the location of a prominently scorched and melted strip of asphalt. The vehicle quickly reached a speed of between 250 and 300 mph and continued at that speed, under full power, for an additional 20-25 seconds. The soon-to-be pilot experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full afterburners.
The Chevy remained on the straight highway for approximately 2.6 miles (15-20 seconds) before the driver applied the brakes, completely melting them, blowing the tires, and leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface. The vehicle then became airborne for an additional 1.3 miles, impacted the cliff face at a height of 125 feet, and left a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock.
Most of the driver's remains were not recovered; however, small fragments of bone, teeth, and hair were extracted from the crater, and fingernail and bone shards were removed from a piece of debris believed to be a portion of the steering wheel.
Ironically a still-legible bumper sticker was found, reading
"How do you like my driving? Dial 1-800-EAT-****."

kenewagner
10-27-2009, 08:08 AM
Boy as a club we can sure take a thread off course:rolleyes:

Ken

Mercutio
10-27-2009, 08:10 AM
The rocket car story is just an urban legend.

Ira R.
10-27-2009, 11:31 AM
The rocket car story is just an urban legend.

Actually it was a Darwin Award winner that year I believe.

Ira

XxSlowpokexX
10-27-2009, 12:07 PM
Mythbusters did a half///// attempt at this IMO.

They did not recreate a true JATO propelled vehicle # 1. Also there are many different generation JATO's to be had. Newer generation JATO's would probably tear the car apart upon hititng the start button.

The only people that can bust this myth (and did from what I read) was the Arizona Department of Safety/Highway Patrol...The Myth clearly states They found and alalyzed the wreckage.

Yes there was a Darwin award granted..And it was grandfathered in rather then taken away...

AND in the late 40's Granatelli did 150mph or so in a JATO propelled vehicle..I;m sure there may be a bit of info on the web for that

And to even further get off topicccc Thats insaine

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/bolus/daredevilry/

LukewarmSteak
10-27-2009, 01:22 PM
i'd say that with out knowing the actual angle of the original rocket configuration you could never duplicate the scenario - it looked like the car was being forced downward which would have eliminated the chance of liftoff

Mercutio
10-27-2009, 02:18 PM
http://www.snopes.com/autos/dream/jato.asp

Mike8675309
10-27-2009, 02:42 PM
Mythbusters actually did pretty good considering the Air Force was unwilling to provide to them, at any cost, a JATO rocket. So they ended up working with what they could get which was large model rocket motors. They managed to get the car up to 130mph, faster than the copter, but way slower than what a single JATO could deliver. A JATO produces about 1,000 lbs of thrust for 12-15 seconds The best they could do was rocket motors achieving 1500 lbs of thrust, but for only 4 seconds. To overcome that they tried to fire the engines in sequence, to try to maintain constant thrust.

Other cars have used JATO rockets in the past, most notably the Wingfoot Express and Wingfoot Express II. The former claimed to have hit 605mph with 25 JATO motors in use.

XxSlowpokexX
10-27-2009, 03:20 PM
If you guys didnt check out the link I provided....You really should..The guy street raced a car with a jet engine installed...In which he used On The Street on occasion.....THATS wild

S_Mazza
10-27-2009, 03:25 PM
Wow, that link was TOP-NOTCH. That is some of the craziest stuff I have ever seen. LOL!

Kurt K
10-27-2009, 04:37 PM
And to even further get off topicccc Thats insaine

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/bolus/daredevilry/

I nominate this as your best post ever.

Toms-SC
10-27-2009, 04:52 PM
As a side note. Is anybody running an AR with a 96/97 factory style hood?

XxSlowpokexX
10-27-2009, 07:06 PM
I nominate this as your best post ever.

I was bound to find a winner after 10,000 or so

XR7 Dave
10-27-2009, 08:26 PM
If you guys didnt check out the link I provided....You really should..The guy street raced a car with a jet engine installed...In which he used On The Street on occasion.....THATS wild

Funny thing is I remember reading about that as a kid in one of my Dad's old Hot Rod magazine articles.

seawalkersee
10-29-2009, 12:58 PM
It must have been cold at the track on photo shoot day.

SWS

Super XR7
10-29-2009, 04:36 PM
Seemed like it was back in the middle 80's and he was one of the 10 Darwin award winners. A list you do want to make.

Mike

grey500se
10-30-2009, 12:12 PM
I can't figure out how to mount one, their are no mounting holes?

I think the orientation has to stay outlet side up?

it can't be oriented the way i want it because the gears might not get proper oiling?

also the snout can't be rotated to the other side since its on the right side?

XR7Kurt
10-30-2009, 12:39 PM
I saw, actually heard, a jet engine in the back of a pickup this summer at the Woodward cruise. We were sitting in at the edge of the road watching cars go by and heard it about 100 yards away. I wasn't sure what it was at first but saw a crowd start to gather and caught a glimse of it. He was parked and it only took 2-3 minutes before the cops headed that way. I think they must have just told him to knock it off because he just left and that was it.
I don't know if it was mounted to move the truck, I think it was just to entertain the crowd, and it did.

Micahdogg
10-30-2009, 01:55 PM
I can't figure out how to mount one, their are no mounting holes?

I think the orientation has to stay outlet side up?

it can't be oriented the way i want it because the gears might not get proper oiling?

also the snout can't be rotated to the other side since its on the right side?

PM Damon, it just takes a "couple brackets" :)

For the record, I installed a wheel from a festiva for the blower pulley. The entire unit sits under the K-member and the friction from the ground gets that puppy spinning up nice. Off the line she's a pooch, but by the 1/8th mile...WHOA...hold on!

XxSlowpokexX
10-30-2009, 02:04 PM
PM Damon, it just takes a "couple brackets" :)

For the record, I installed a wheel from a festiva for the blower pulley. The entire unit sits under the K-member and the friction from the ground gets that puppy spinning up nice. Off the line she's a pooch, but by the 1/8th mile...WHOA...hold on!



Actually Micah it doesnt take much mounting it outlet up. But if you dont fabricate..Then you need to look elswhere to do it. Chances are though if your asking how to mount it. You dont fabricate:D

grey500se
10-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Actually Micah it doesnt take much mounting it outlet up. But if you dont fabricate..Then you need to look elswhere to do it. Chances are though if your asking how to mount it. You dont fabricate:D

Show me, the only way I can think of is an countersunk adaptor on the outlet, or changing the bolts of the front , rear casing and snout with studs and make some tabs, all which will add atleast 3/4" of height and length before the plenums can be made.

90blkbrd
10-30-2009, 03:16 PM
Show me, the only way I can think of is an countersunk adaptor on the outlet, or changing the bolts of the front , rear casing and snout with studs and make some tabs, all which will add atleast 3/4" of height and length before the plenums can be made.

Search the site for photos of AR's. Also look for pictures in Ken Wagner's garage and see how he used a snout brace for the front of his 2.3 Whipple.

XxSlowpokexX
10-30-2009, 03:17 PM
In the case of Supercoupe Unlimiteds AR install kit the later model versions used the rear inlet and a snout to Water pump bracket to bolt down the SC. Then you either have to make a new top or an adapter plate to use teh factory one...

Also you will need to hook up a bypass valve going from the inlet to IC return plenum.

If you do a search of Autorotor cars on here you may get some good engine photos that will at least show the snout bracket and top adapter

kenewagner
10-30-2009, 04:03 PM
Front brace looks like this on the 1.7 AR

Ken

Miller
10-30-2009, 04:39 PM
Glue. Gorilla glue

XxSlowpokexX
10-30-2009, 05:16 PM
There are many ways to do it..But the front snout brace has been used on many roots and twin screw kits on the market. It both supports and aligns the SC. Probbaly the easiest way to go fabrication wise. Then you need to position the blower. So be it from teh back, rear, top, sides...You need to keep it from moving around

Micahdogg
10-30-2009, 05:53 PM
What you will actually need to do is keep the blower in a fixed position. If it moves around this could be bad for several reasons. (1) you could throw a belt, and while you will free up some HP loss from the crank, it will be bad for power in the long run. (2) your tubes could pull the "flops around" trick under your hood. Various things flying around into other things under your hood may be bad in the long run too. One thing I'm thinking of is a tube hits your positive terminal on the battery and BAM, you could blow yourself to pieces.

I've seen numerous ways to mount blowers, some better than others. This one I saw was pretty slick and used bolts. The other one I saw had "plates" that looked welded and then bolts holding the plates down. It's all pretty simple, you are talking metal and bolts. SO once you choose your method its just a few things. Give it a tug and make sure it's not moving. Then put a belt on it and start it up. I would wait with the key in the on position so your fuel pump can catch up, then give the ignition a slight bump. I feel that this effectively "primes" your injectors for "go time." Then give it a good crank and stab the throttle good. Everything should fire up and it'll pretty much be the best mod you ever made.

Ira R.
10-30-2009, 10:39 PM
Front brace looks like this on the 1.7 AR

Ken

What front brace??

Ira

90blkbrd
10-30-2009, 10:42 PM
What front brace??

Ira

You must have a early kit. Only the later ones came with one. Ricardo's didn't come with one either.

Miller
10-31-2009, 02:23 AM
that syle sucks bigtime. snout brace and return plenum mounts FTMFW..

CMac89
10-31-2009, 02:53 AM
that syle sucks bigtime. snout brace and return plenum mounts FTMFW..

How would yooouu knoowww? You're just a neewwwbiiieeee!

90MN12
10-31-2009, 03:34 AM
I'd be happy with any ar kit. Newer style, older style, 1.7, 2.0, 2.2.

kenewagner
10-31-2009, 09:23 AM
What front brace??

Ira

That was a picture of David Neiberts 1.7 that he sent me showing a snout brace. At the time I was trying to figure out how to mount my M112.

Ken

Mike8675309
10-31-2009, 11:14 AM
Here is a picture of my 2.0 ar with it's mounts visible. Critical points of any type of blower mount.
Blower pulley must be parallel with the drive pulley system.
Blower needs to leave room for the fuel rail and clear the thermostat cover and tube. The plenum bolted to the back of the blower needs to clear the intake manifold plenum and place the throttle body in the right location for the throttle cable mount, as well as various vacuum hoses.
Depending on blower length, the thermostat housing in the intake manifold may need to be modified. (there is already a notch there for the stock blower)

In this picture you can see the plate and bolts that locate the blower at it's rear intake plenum, attaching it to the intake manifold plenum. The front is held by the snout brace which attaches at water pump bolts. This picture doesn't show the tube that goes over the blower to connect the bypass valve to the blower intake.
http://media.motortopia.com/files/3211/album_2009_work/4aec4a3557f60/tn_full_mounts.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/467139)

Miller
11-01-2009, 10:27 AM
i found that mounting style to be a big ~~~~ compared to the alternate mounting method being used where it bolts with the return plenum..

XxSlowpokexX
11-01-2009, 11:23 PM
Newbie..It's not the same as teh old 1.7 AR setup

Miller
11-02-2009, 01:46 PM
it sure looooks the same to meeeee with the addition of a snout brace mrslowpokedauman

fturner
11-02-2009, 01:57 PM
it sure looooks the same to meeeee with the addition of a snout brace mrslowpokedauman

Since you've obviously done better, lets see the pics :cool:.

Fraser

Miller
11-02-2009, 02:09 PM
i havent done better as per a design i have created i simply stated that it looked like the old 1.7 mounting style that i found to be a pain in the heiny compared to the alternate style.

90blkbrd
11-02-2009, 03:19 PM
removed. not needed here.

Ira R.
11-02-2009, 03:50 PM
off topic sorry.

90MN12
11-02-2009, 03:55 PM
AS HAPPENS EVERYNOW AND THEN BY SOME REALLY SMART GUY, SOMEONE HAS TO COMPLAIN AND GRIP ABOUT SOMETHING SOMEONE HAS DONE TO EXCELL THE SC COMMUNITY. I AM SURE THERE ARE ALOT OF GUYS THAT WOULD JUMP ON THE CHANCE TO BUY ONE OF THE FIRST KITS THAT CAME OUT JUST TO HAVE ONE. UNLESS YOUR GONNA START MAKING AR KITS OR SOMETHING GOOD FOR THE SC COMMUNITY THEN SHUT YO MOUF IN REGARDS TO THIS SUBJECT. MAYBE NEXT YOU'D LIKE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT AN MP PRODUCT, OR MAYBE KENS DOUBLE IC, OR A CHIP FROM FRIT OR DD. :mad:

CMac89
11-02-2009, 03:59 PM
AS HAPPENS EVERYNOW AND THEN BY SOME REALLY SMART GUY, SOMEONE HAS TO COMPLAIN AND GRIP ABOUT SOMETHING SOMEONE HAS DONE TO EXCELL THE SC COMMUNITY. I AM SURE THERE ARE ALOT OF GUYS THAT WOULD JUMP ON THE CHANCE TO BUY ONE OF THE FIRST KITS THAT CAME OUT JUST TO HAVE ONE. UNLESS YOUR GONNA START MAKING AR KITS OR SOMETHING GOOD FOR THE SC COMMUNITY THEN SHUT YO MOUF IN REGARDS TO THIS SUBJECT. MAYBE NEXT YOU'D LIKE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT AN MP PRODUCT, OR MAYBE KENS DOUBLE IC, OR A CHIP FROM FRIT OR DD. :mad:

Yep, because QuarterHorse is the only way to go.

90MN12
11-02-2009, 04:09 PM
yep, because quarterhorse is the only way to go.

only for those who know what they're doing.

90blkbrd
11-02-2009, 05:06 PM
only for those who know what they're doing.

How does this remark not fit into your previous post? QH isn't any harder than the other tuning software out there and it has way more capability.

Miller
11-02-2009, 05:37 PM
double possssssssst

Miller
11-02-2009, 05:42 PM
i dont even know what im talking about. im just going off what i have read. sorry to anger you 90mn12. i have met dd and hes a super guy and id be honored to have one of his thangs on my car. i wont post here anymore i will leave it to all those with experience on the matter

Micahdogg
11-02-2009, 06:33 PM
LOL, you can never leave...you are trapped!

90MN12
11-02-2009, 08:29 PM
how does this remark not fit into your previous post? Qh isn't any harder than the other tuning software out there and it has way more capability.

i am the type of person that doens't know squat about doing anything but the basics to my car. Since i cant tune and don't know the basics, qh is out for me. I think qh is really good but for an sc owner like me, a chip tune from dd or frit is the way to go. I plan on having it dynotuned one day when all the parts can be installed.

To newbie, i just get mad at those who try to talk smack about some of the good/great things we have for our cars. I am sure that changes were made for the better by dd on his later ar kits. Trial and error and seeing what would make the kit better. But i'd still be happy as hell if i had the first kit he made.

90blkbrd
11-02-2009, 08:37 PM
i am the type of person that doens't know squat about doing anything but the basics to my car. Since i cant tune and don't know the basics, qh is out for me. I think qh is really good but for an sc owner like me, a chip tune from dd or frit is the way to go. I plan on having it dynotuned one day when all the parts can be installed.

Here is where you are wrong. QH is perfect for you. If you have David or Frit tune your car with a SCT chip, next time you need it tweaked you have to mail the chip to them and then have them mail it back. This whole time you are down without a chip.

If you have QH and purchase the software (less than $100) you can datalog all of the sensors on the car an send them to your tuner and they can tweak your tune and then you can load the chip yourself. Shoot you could do this all day long.

Mike8675309
11-02-2009, 08:47 PM
blah..blah..blah... AR 2.0 and a QH...sounds fine to me.
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90blkbrd
11-02-2009, 08:55 PM
AR 2.0 and a QH...sounds fine to me.

I can do that without QC and a AR. ;) You need to turn up the wick on that car and I can't wait. :cool:

XR7 Dave
11-02-2009, 09:01 PM
So many experts. :rolleyes: Casey is my hero. Stock cast iron manifolds for the MFW!



Well, plastic sunroof and duct tape aren't all bad either. :D



All of your AR kits are outdated anyway. I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me. :eek:

ScrapSC
11-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Casey is my hero also!!!! He needs to come to KY this Sunday!!

David Neibert
11-03-2009, 12:50 PM
All of your AR kits are outdated anyway. I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me. :eek:

Yeah...it's pretty sucky that they only add about 70 rwhp to whatever you bolt one onto :rolleyes:

David

Toms-SC
11-03-2009, 12:53 PM
Yeah...it's pretty sucky that they only add about 70 rwhp to whatever you bolt one onto :rolleyes:

David

2.3 is the new hotness.

ricardoa1
11-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Yeah...it's pretty sucky that they only add about 70 rwhp to whatever you bolt one onto :rolleyes:

David

Why was it only 20HP increase for me? :cool:
They are outdated, and expensive to fix if they Kaput.

kenewagner
11-03-2009, 01:13 PM
2.3 is the new hotness.


2.3 is a good number:D


Ken

Toms-SC
11-03-2009, 01:38 PM
2.3 is a good number:D


Ken

When is the mass production factory starting?

Toms-SC
11-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Why was it only 20HP increase for me? :cool:
They are outdated, and expensive to fix if they Kaput.

Don't be emo, cheer up kid. :D

Micahdogg
11-03-2009, 01:46 PM
I wish my lawn was emo. Then it would cut itself.

kenewagner
11-03-2009, 01:47 PM
When is the mass production factory starting?

You would be surprised how many guys have approach me on those lines. I still have to get my set up finished and tuned to show its worthness.;)


Ken

ricardoa1
11-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Don't be emo, cheer up kid. :D

Just saying...Im a happy camper so far.

David Neibert
11-03-2009, 02:50 PM
Why was it only 20HP increase for me? :cool:
They are outdated, and expensive to fix if they Kaput.

Needs more Cowbell :cool:


David

ricardoa1
11-03-2009, 03:20 PM
1.7l AR owners what are you RPMs when you are shifting at the track? When pushing around 20~.

My dyno sheets are not a good graph to see peak power and I dont know where to shift to at the track.

ScrapSC
11-03-2009, 04:25 PM
Im not an AR owner but I wait until it screams before I shift.

Micahdogg
11-03-2009, 04:29 PM
I shift at 6000. It pulls good to the 6200 rpm rev limiter, but it's hard to shift over 6000 and not hit the limiter.

Despite what Dalke says, I think it would pull fine to 6500 rpm and all I've really got is that 208/.509 Crane cam with stiffer valve springs.

ricardoa1
11-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Well my dynos were 5800rpms Dynos and HP was still climbing so I want to guess that peak HP was around 6100-6200rpms. I was shifting at 5800-6000rpms according to the Data logs last weekend. But the higher I shift the more trouble I have getting into the gears. I suspect that I should be shifting at 6500 RPMs to get the most. But want to hear what others are doing with a AR 1.7l and a cam between 218 230 duration.

David Neibert
11-03-2009, 04:34 PM
1.7l AR owners what are you RPMs when you are shifting at the track? When pushing around 20~.

My dyno sheets are not a good graph to see peak power and I dont know where to shift to at the track.

I try to shift at 6300.

David

CMac89
11-03-2009, 04:38 PM
I shift at 7500 RPM.

I believe a lot of people are leaving a decent amount of ET on the table trying to race their cars like diesels.

Ira R.
11-03-2009, 05:11 PM
1.7l AR owners what are you RPMs when you are shifting at the track? When pushing around 20~.

My dyno sheets are not a good graph to see peak power and I dont know where to shift to at the track.

tach lite set to 5800.

Ira

XxSlowpokexX
11-03-2009, 05:28 PM
I shift at 7500 RPM.

I believe a lot of people are leaving a decent amount of ET on the table trying to race their cars like diesels.


Solid lifter cams help in that department dude

CMac89
11-03-2009, 05:57 PM
Yes, they do. Along with other things.

90blkbrd
11-03-2009, 08:06 PM
Im not an AR owner but I wait until it screams before I shift.

I can play this game.

I don't shift until she is done screaming. :D;):D

XxSlowpokexX
11-04-2009, 12:21 PM
Me shifting is what makes her scream.....:rolleyes:

Has anyone gone from an m90 to an AR and changed there shift points?

rzimmerl
11-04-2009, 12:25 PM
Has anyone gone from an m90 to an AR and changed there shift points?

I'll experiment with that next spring. I was shifting at the shootout with the M90 at 5000-5200.

XR7 Dave
11-04-2009, 12:32 PM
Most people are limited with shift points by their valvetrain moreso than blower or cam.

Toms-SC
11-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Most people are limited with shift points by their valvetrain moreso than blower or cam.

Could you expand on this a little David? At what RPM's does the limited intake manifold come into play too?

ricardoa1
11-04-2009, 02:53 PM
Could you expand on this a little David? At what RPM's does the limited intake manifold come into play too?

I think stock valvetrain start to float in the 5500-6000 range. I am not sure that Steig heads will have valve float or even the behive springs in that RPM range. Maybe Dave can tell us what his Stage 3 or whatever called heads he has will start to do the same.

Mike8675309
11-04-2009, 02:54 PM
Me shifting is what makes her scream.....:rolleyes:

Has anyone gone from an m90 to an AR and changed there shift points?

Last year with a M90, after the dyno tune I found the best shift points were about 5100 rpm.

This year with the AR I haven't had it on a dyno yet to see where the peaks are, but I shifted about 5800rpm and it was pulling all the way there.

Now, my motor cam and valve train were setup to make power and run reliably at 6500rpm for extended periods. It was built with the AR in mind. I would have focused below 6000rpm if using a m90. Not sure with the MPX.

XxSlowpokexX
11-04-2009, 03:02 PM
Stock springs are barely adequate for stock lift and rpm..Add age into the factor and your screwed. So sometimes you can get valvefloat before you run out of cam thus limiting yoru RPM potential. Even on a stock engine a spring upgrade is a great idea..Now sometimes you can keep revving with a good set of valve springs...And make no additional power.

Im just curious what effect teh blower swap made to shift RPM;s with all else being equal

Micahdogg
11-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Me shifting is what makes her scream.....:rolleyes:

Has anyone gone from an m90 to an AR and changed there shift points?

I was shifting at 5000 with my M90. Now I'm shifting at 6000 with the AR. The blower/injectors were the only things that changed.

fturner
11-04-2009, 03:29 PM
I've run my car up to 6000 to shift and my load values in my datalogs are flat from 3200 to about 5300 @ 175% average then slowly starts to drop to about 165%... and I'm running an AOD ;) with an 94/95 m90 making 16.5 lbs of boost, which also starts to drop at 5300 and is down to about 15.3 at 6000.

Get a 9.5" TC installed and I'm taking her to 6500... but I'm sure my stock rebuilt tc isn't liking the 6000 too much :). To add, I'm also running a short duration cam at 204/206.

Fraser

CMac89
11-04-2009, 04:36 PM
I was shifting at 5000 with my M90. Now I'm shifting at 6000 with the AR. The blower/injectors were the only things that changed.

Just because the motor doesn't rev limit due to extreme valve float, doesn't mean the valves aren't floating. Most critical valve float is inaudible and only visible through dyno testing. Valve float will govern horsepower in a specific range and numbers will start nosediving after RPM exceeds the valve springs integrity.

I'm running the Comp 990 springs. Installed right at 200lbs on the seat.

kenewagner
11-04-2009, 05:21 PM
I've run my car up to 6000 to shift and my load values in my datalogs are flat from 3200 to about 5300 @ 175% average then slowly starts to drop to about 165%... and I'm running an AOD ;) with an 94/95 m90 making 16.5 lbs of boost, which also starts to drop at 5300 and is down to about 15.3 at 6000.

Get a 9.5" TC installed and I'm taking her to 6500... but I'm sure my stock rebuilt tc isn't liking the 6000 too much :). To add, I'm also running a short duration cam at 204/206.

Fraser

Im looking hard putting in a 9.5" TQ converter more for the reduction of rotating weight. That rev limit will have to be adjusted a lot higher with the new motor.

Ken

90blkbrd
11-04-2009, 05:25 PM
Im looking hard putting in a 9.5" TQ converter more for the reduction of rotating weight. That rev limit will have to be adjusted a lot higher with the new motor.

Ken

Wouldn't this depend on your cam, valve springs, and when your motor stops making power?

XR7 Dave
11-04-2009, 05:27 PM
Im just curious what effect teh blower swap made to shift RPM;s with all else being equal

No one can answer this because they are all guessing based on personal experience which is highly flawed.