Trouble at the Mechanic

Belisarius

Registered User
Here's the story. I took my bird in to the mechanic to have a whole boatload of parts installed that I've been acquiring over the past year. Aluminum radiator, Lincoln LCAs and pumpkin, engine mounts, double intercooler, front suspension pieces, short shifter; in the process there was a leak in the front seal so I had a BHJ balancer in stalled. This was over a month ago.

The owner and the manager both test drove the car and both failed to notice there was no oil pressure. After some diagnostic work, they found out the oil pump had seized. This ruined the motor. The car is a '95 five speed with 77,000 on the ticker. My Dad bought the car new and had it dealer maintained with the same dealer until he gave it to me last year. Figuring I had a good car with quite a bit of life left in it I spent some money on a major tune, dual mandrel bent exhaust, cold air intake, , kooks mid length headers, TB and MAF. The car is clean and has been in no accidents. Because I was having the suspension rebuilt, and having Bullit style wheels in the garage, I did the hub conversion and added the larger rotors etc. etc..

My mechanic called last week, told me about the motor and that he was going to get me a new motor on his dime. I went by the shop today to check in, see the new motor and check on progress and found that instead of a new motor, the shop was prepping a used pick-a-part motor of unknown mileage. Apparently the new engine has been "tested", runs and has an unlimited mileage three year warranty, but it is definitely not new.

I'd like opinions about what you think I should do. Oddly, even though I live in Southern California, the community I live in is very tightly knit, the shop has otherwise been very cool about all the repairs I've taken there, and they are the best game in town. Finding another trustworthy shop would be a major pain in this part of LA.

Knowing something about cars I know that the mileage of a motor doesn't tell the whole story by a long shot. Was this motor maintained as well as the one they cooked? Where did it come from? At 77,000 my '95 is one of the lowest mileage birds around. How many miles were on this motor? (They are going to check the mileage and get back to me tomorrow.) Over the last year of reading around here I know that these motors are prone to head gasket failure even in a non modded car. Can a used boosted motor be trusted? Even if they come back with a mileage number, who's to say that the previous owner took care of his motor at all?

The warranty is not a selling point for me in any way. As a school teacher with a short commute I put about 8,500 miles on the odometer every year. Three years can go by, I'll have an even more used motor with 27,000 more miles on it, no warranty and be looking at possible issues down the road. I keep cars. I've had my BMW 535i for 8 years and have no plans to sell it. Before that I had two successive Volvo 240 turbos on which I racked up the miles. My plan was to keep this car for quite a while and, knowing it was a relatively low mile car, I was planning on it being my daily driver for the foreseeable future.

Here's what I'd like to know:

If you have owned, or currently work at a repair shop, what's your shop's policy in a situation like this?

Should I expect a new motor or be satisfied with a junkyard engine?

Were there any differences between the '94 and '95 power plants?

Were there any differences between the manual and auto power plants?

What 3.8 specific issues should I look for in this used motor?

What's your general opinion of the matter?
 
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Its common practice to use salvage yard motors. If there are any major issues they will be found within the warranty period. Just make sure it's a motor from a supercoupe. The heads will have a sc stamped on them.
 
Here's the story. I took my bird in to the mechanic to have a whole boatload of parts installed that I've been acquiring over the past year. Aluminum radiator, Lincoln LCAs and pumpkin, engine mounts, double intercooler, front suspension pieces, short shifter; in the process there was a leak in the front seal so I had a BHJ balancer in stalled. This was over a month ago.

The owner and the manager both test drove the car and both failed to notice there was no oil pressure. After some diagnostic work, they found out the oil pump had seized. This ruined the motor. The car is a '95 five speed with 77,000 on the ticker. My Dad bought the car new and had it dealer maintained with the same dealer until he gave it to me last year. Figuring I had a good car with quite a bit of life left in it I spent some money on a major tune, dual mandrel bent exhaust, cold air intake, , kooks mid length headers, TB and MAF. The car is clean and has been in no accidents. Because I was having the suspension rebuilt, and having Bullit style wheels in the garage, I did the hub conversion and added the larger rotors etc. etc..

My mechanic called last week, told me about the motor and that he was going to get me a new motor on his dime. I went by the shop today to check in, see the new motor and check on progress and found that instead of a new motor, the shop was prepping a used pick-a-part motor of unknown mileage. Apparently the new engine has been "tested", runs and has an unlimited mileage three year warranty, but it is definitely not new.

I'd like opinions about what you think I should do. Oddly, even though I live in Southern California, the community I live in is very tightly knit, the shop has otherwise been very cool about all the repairs I've taken there, and they are the best game in town. Finding another trustworthy shop would be a major pain in this part of LA.

Knowing something about cars I know that the mileage of a motor doesn't tell the whole story by a long shot. Was this motor maintained as well as the one they cooked? Where did it come from? At 77,000 my '95 is one of the lowest mileage birds around. How many miles were on this motor? (They are going to check the mileage and get back to me tomorrow.) Over the last year of reading around here I know that these motors are prone to head gasket failure even in a non modded car. Can a used boosted motor be trusted? Even if they come back with a mileage number, who's to say that the previous owner took care of his motor at all?

The warranty is not a selling point for me in any way. As a school teacher with a short commute I put about 8,500 miles on the odometer every year. Three years can go by, I'll have an even more used motor with 27,000 more miles on it, no warranty and be looking at possible issues down the road. I keep cars. I've had my BMW 535i for 8 years and have no plans to sell it. Before that I had two successive Volvo 240 turbos on which I racked up the miles. My plan was to keep this car for quite a while and, knowing it was a relatively low mile car, I was planning on it being my daily driver for the foreseeable future.

Here's what I'd like to know:

If you have owned, or currently work at a repair shop, what's your shop's policy in a situation like this?

Should I expect a new motor or be satisfied with a junkyard engine?

Were there any differences between the '94 and '95 power plants?

Were there any differences between the manual and auto power plants?

What 3.8 specific issues should I look for in this used motor?

What's your general opinion of the matter?

as stated. yes make sure its a sc motor, real easy to see on the front side of the heads. do you have a manual or auto. also important since both use different cams. imo i would insist on a basic rebuild for free. (failure to observe oil pressure shows your a bad mechanic imo) so they should be happy to give you there best since its a sad mistake that even a novice mechanic wouldnt miss. 94-95 is basically the same. make sure they transfer all your goody's from your bad motor to the new 1. and insist on 100% new gaskets, seals, ext all around. thats my opinion. thats what i would do. now its up to you to decide and do what you feel ok with doing. good luck and god speed. :)
 
hello.first of all sad to hear what happened to your bird. 2ndly i think that shop is being extremely generous in getting you another engine installed for nothing.why do you think you deserve a "new" engine? you did not have a new engine to begin with. but it had 70k+ and gaskets that were over 15years old.and "dealer maintained" means nothing. i worked at a ford dealer several years ago, pretty much everything in for an oil change got bulk penzoil 5w30. at my current shop we had an incident similar to yours, toasted an engine on a camaro iroc during a test drive, and the owner was furious. well he and my boss came to an agreement where we installed a motor for free while the customer supplied it.i think that would be a fair deal for you too unless the shop acted maliciously or carelessly. why is the oil pump seizing up the shops fault? if it was guna happen it was guna happen. i have owned my sc for many years and i always romp on the gas, i have over 245k miles on it. original longblock still.when i buy another tbird i will try to avoid owners who claim that they only drove their cars a couple miles to work and back, i dont think such short drive cycles are good for the engine long term. i would rather have a bird with twice the mileage if they were freeway miles. thats just my opinion.well good luck to you. also make sure they are not installing one earlier then 94.
 
If it is a stock Sc motor with a lot of miles on it, than be prepared to replace the head gaskets sooner or later. It might test out fine now and the first time you go to WOT, puff, white smoke. Also high milage SC engines can have a lot of wear on the bearings. They might be just getting into an worn area giving you an unpleasant knock 50 miles down the road. I would rather have, if it was mine, the engine rebuilt. Than you have all new bearings and fresh head gaskets. Kick in some bucks of your own for ARP studs. A fresh engine is better than your old engine or maybe an older engine. I would neogiate some if they are a good bunch

Ken
 
Something is very fishy.

Oil pumps do not seize. Never seen it happen on an SC. Ever. I'd insist on being shown a seized pump before I'd believe that one. I'd walk in, no warning, and just demand to see the pump because that would tell you if there is foul play right then and there.

If the pump is seized then the shop is not liable for anything because it would have to be a very freak incident and they couldn't possibly be held accountable for it.

If the pump is not seized then they lied and I'd insist on a new motor because in that case it would be obvious that someone took the car out and "performance tested it" which is 100% absolutely unacceptable.

The BS is very thick in here right now.
 
When it first happened, they showed me the seized pump. I was told that normally it should turn by hand and this one didn't at all. I think there was a little BS from that point as they tried to revive the motor before giving in and ordering a new one.

As to the other replies, I would assume that a mechanic would check oil pressure. The issue was that the car ran without oil pressure for a long time, not that there was a freak mechanical failure. The main problem came when the car was driven extensively with no oil pressure.

My main issue is that any used motor is, unless it was pulled from a bird a long time ago, going to have more miles than mine.

What is the difference in cam?

Thanks for the replies so far.
 
When it first happened, they showed me the seized pump. I was told that normally it should turn by hand and this one didn't at all. I think there was a little BS from that point as they tried to revive the motor before giving in and ordering a new one.

As to the other replies, I would assume that a mechanic would check oil pressure. The issue was that the car ran without oil pressure for a long time, not that there was a freak mechanical failure. The main problem came when the car was driven extensively with no oil pressure.

My main issue is that any used motor is, unless it was pulled from a bird a long time ago, going to have more miles than mine.

What is the difference in cam?

Thanks for the replies so far.

If your motor was driven without ANY oil pressure, either you delivered it to them without oil and hence the motor was already shot before they got it, or they drained the oil out and drove it anyway. This is critical in understanding what happened. If the pump turns, it will make pressure. If the pump doesn't turn, then parts will break. If the pump locked up and it somehow managed to run without any oil, what happened after the pump locked up is inconsequential because the damage occurred before the pump seized, not after.

The whole thing doesn't add up. Oil pumps don't just seize up. I've torn down motors that were abused to the point that they won't run any more and I've never seen a badly damaged oil pump. Did it twist off the distributor drive shaft? It's a mechanical connection between the cam and the oil pump. If the oil pump doesn't turn, then something has to be physically broken. Instantly. You should be shown the broken parts. Again, oil pumps do not seize up unless something very bad went through it. So either something bad happened while you had the car, or they did something bad to it and either way there has to be broken parts (timing gear, cam/dist gear, pump drive shaft, etc). There really is no in-between. Show me the parts.

When a motor is seriously abused to the point that metal starts to migrate around in the oiling system, then the pump gears can get sticky and not want to turn very well if at all by hand, but as I said, for an oil pump to not turn and be "seized up" there has to be something physically broken between the cam and the pump. If there are no broken parts, then regardless of what you think you saw, the pump was still working. It's physically impossible to be otherwise.

If you are so sure that the car was driven extensively without oil pressure, the question remains - who drove it extensively? The shop had no reason to drive it extensively, and it's not just a matter of checking oil pressure because if the motor has any oil pressure at all the gauge will read normal but if there is no oil pressure (seized pump as you say) then the RED check gauges light will come on and the oil pressure gauge will drop to completely warning the driver that something is wrong. To drive a car "extensively" under those conditions is negligent. However, if metal is or has been migrating around in your motor, low oil pressure will cause all sorts of problems including destroying your motor without ever showing low oil pressure or triggering a check gauges light. In this case the shop may not be liable at all. Maybe you sent them a time-bomb to work on.

Without broken parts to prove what happened, I think its a whole lot more likely that someone from the shop took the car out and had some fun with it until the engine blew. The shop owner may not even know about it. Most likely the car has a bad tune on it due to the added performance parts and it suffered severe detonation which bent some connecting rods and trashed the bearings. The "stuck" oil pump is a symptom rather than a cause. Believe what you want, but I think this scenario is 99% more likely than any other.

If you are worried about wear or mileage on the replacement motor, you need to put a new motor in plain and simple, even if you have to pay for it. Otherwise it's a complete guess on anyone's part, and as has been pointed out above, 77K miles and dealer service is absolutely no guarantee of anything. As for the cam, that's that last of your worries.
 
I would say that you can't really tell if the shop is being generous or shady, because you can't tell what actually happened. Unless you crack open the old engine and start checking parts.

But if you are nervous about the used engine, maybe you can pay extra to have it rebuilt, as long as they cover the engine itself and the installation.

It's up to you how you want to proceed.
 
The fact that the shop is willing to pay for the used motor and install it for free tells me that they must know they did something wrong. Something similar happened to me once, a customer brought the car in for a check engine light, and while test-driving it I noticed the oil light flickering every so often. Luckily I caught it before I fixed anything, so I didn't charge the customer anything, and I gave the car back to him with the motor knocking, but still running. But I didn't do anything wrong, so I wasn't about to buy him a motor. I think Dave's explanation is the most plausible. If the oil pump completely seized, the motor wouldn't run at all. If the pump turns, it will move oil, so for the pump to be turning and the motor to have no oil pressure, the bearings have to be wiped out.

Now with that being said, I don't think you have the right to demand a new engine from them. In fact, if this went to court, you would probably get nothing since the car is 14 years old. If it were my car, I would do 2 things. Number one, I would have the shop pull the oil pan off and take a look at the rod bearings. Even if you have to pay for this, it is worth it because it should only take them a couple hours tops to do now, and if you find the rod bearings are worn, or showing copper, then you can get it warrantied prior to ever installing it in the car. Number 2, if the rod bearings are good, and the shop puts the motor in the car and gives it back to you, I would spend at least the first month beating on that car like it owes you money. If there is something internally damaged in the motor, the sooner it breaks the easier it will be to collect on that warranty. So when you get the car back, tach out first gear from every stoplight, make sure to downshift on the highway, take the car to the track and make some passes, basically put the car through the worst it will ever see, and if it holds up to that, then your replacement motor is likely in good shape, and you can feel secure about the car's reliability. And if in that time you pop the head gaskets, or spin a rod bearing, or throw pieces of the crank out the side of the block, then you make them fix it under warranty, and that also puts you in a better position to request a rebuilt motor instead of another used one.
 
Losing an engine that you maintained for 77K must be a crappy feeling. Sorry that happened to you. Be sure the new block is a 94-95. They have better connecting rods. Be sure that you see SC stamped on the heads and block.
I am not sure about the AOD/5speed cams in the newer motors I am pretty sure that till 90 the 5speeds had dirrerent cams.

Overall, I am with Dave - something just is not right.

Good luck with everything.
 
Like Dave said the pump will not seize. My block exploded (literally) dumped all the oil and my pump was just fine (and I had lifter retainers in the pan and on the cam). The used pump parts were identical to the rebuild parts and now I couldn't tell whats being used and whats in storage.

Do not be upset about getting a engine with possibly more miles ask that HG be replace with you supply the gasket and bolts, and as Mike said have them pull the pan an check the bearings; if bearing are bad I argue for a complete rebuild.

Though I would stay with this shop though, since they are taking responsibility for the death of the engine and not doing only what is legal.

Personally I doubt they broke but it broke in their possession and they are doing what is right, but to protect yourself get something in writing.
 
bottom line. what im thinking here is there is an oil pressure gauge dab smack in your face. as being a mechanic if 1 is provided i view that thing every 2-5 min. in this case if the pump broke why did they not notice the gauge, why did they not notice the retard light, why did they not notice the knocking once the engine was running dry. there's alot of why's here due to i think even a retard could notice when the engine is running without oil pressure. its just way to hard to not notice. theres another side to the story that either they messed up bad with some dummy driving it or ran the hell out of it which i know they do. i brought mine in for an oil change only once. i do it myself now after seeing the shop roasting my tires off all the way down the road on a test drive. i made them give me new rear tires and fire the tard that did it. now i dont even let them pull it into the bay. had my exhaust done about 2 months ago. told them i pull it in or ill go somewhere else. well they let me pull it in. they wanted to do a test drive, i let them ride with me while i drove. i dont even let a soul start it now. just keep this in mind, the first way something of yours is going to be mistreated is by someone else because its not there's so they wont respect it like you will. in this case i see pure fault on the shops behalf. there's to many ways that this should not have happened if common sense was used.
 
Well, the story goes on. I called the mechanic today as they were going to see how many miles were on the used motor they got. I didn't get to ask as the manager told me they did a leak down test and one of the cylinders didn't pass. They bitched and moaned to their supplier, who then bitched and moaned to their supplier... And so I'm getting a remanufactured engine.

All is well.

Thanks for all the help and support everyone.

David
 
Well, the story goes on. I called the mechanic today as they were going to see how many miles were on the used motor they got. I didn't get to ask as the manager told me they did a leak down test and one of the cylinders didn't pass. They bitched and moaned to their supplier, who then bitched and moaned to their supplier... And so I'm getting a remanufactured engine.

All is well.

Thanks for all the help and support everyone.

David

sounds all good, just make sure the reman engine isnt just a 3.8 v6. make sure its remaned sc 3.8. there are alot of differences in the 2 motors.
 
sounds all good, just make sure the reman engine isnt just a 3.8 v6. make sure its remaned sc 3.8. there are alot of differences in the 2 motors.

After hearing they were getting me a reman motor I called back to confirm they were getting a manual transmission 95 version.
 
Make sure its not only a manual, but a SC engine with SC specific parts. Dave can point you in the right direction. ;)
 
I don't understand why they are buying you a motor unless they put the oil pump in. They certainly don't owe you a new engine, The one that was in the car wasn't new was it?
I'm confused, how is it their fault?
Now if they were doing an oil change on it or something to that effect and ran it without oil, that would make more sense. I've seen a bunch of freak things break, but never an oil pump. I once spent 3 days diagnosing a car I drove in that seemed to have no fuel pressure after putting a trans in it. Then we called the owner who told us, ya it does that from time to time, eventually it starts I think the cam lobe is worn out. I bought an electric pump for it, it is behind the seat I just never got around to putting it on. Meanwhile I spent 3 days double and with a service manager up my butt about how I broke it.
Alan
 
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