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View Full Version : M5R2 - Syncro Ring Hub - Any interest?



Tim Groth
12-11-2009, 09:00 PM
Been working on this for a while as a possible new item for the SC community - specifically owners of the M5R2 equipped SC's. My father is an engineer of 24 years and with his help, he has done the design work and also worked with some of his connections to get a quote for development on these rings. With a slow economy machine shops actually have time to consider projects like this since many of their machines are sitting empty this time of year.

I know after rebuilding my M5R2 for my 94 the wear over the years had rounded the teeth on the rings and finding replacements is like a needle in a hay stack.

Wondering if anyone would be interested in possibly a group buy on the Syncro Ring Hub for the M5R2. This would be for the 1-2 Hub and would just be the ring itself for all other parts would be reusable. If this were a success the making of the 3-4 could be a considered project.

Below is a visual of the piece I am refering to..

http://www.cintcc.com/mn12performance/mn12how-to/m5r2_rebuild/m5r2-synchronizer-assembly-1-2.JPG

The quote we were given is for 50 pieces @ $165 each.

Any questions etc, please ask.

-Tim


Interested Buyers
1. Tim Groth - 2
2. BLOWN38 - 1
3. seawalkersee - 2
4. rjgraul - 1
5. Micahdogg - 1
6. Kurt K - 1
7. CharlieB - 1
8. kendall221 - 1


Total : 10

XR7 Dave
12-11-2009, 10:51 PM
I can attest that anyone who has lost a synco (blocker) generally needs this part. I have numerous examples removed from otherwise perfect transmissions. Because this part is not available, most all rebuilds mean putting the the old one back in with a new blocker ring, and then people wonder why the M5R2 is notchy or doesn't like to shift at higher rpms. This is the primary cause of that problem.

At $165 it's not cheap and getting that kind of a group buy together is a rather daunting prospect, but nonetheless, this is an excellent product if it can be produced. Nearly every one with a 5spd transmission needs one. Well, 2 actually because it's about 50-50 2nd gear or 3rd gear that gets hammered.

seawalkersee
12-12-2009, 12:10 PM
I would be down. What are they going to made from? I assume they will be one piece and will be the same material?

SWS

fastsc92
12-12-2009, 12:54 PM
I'd like to hear more about the machining process. Will they be hardened as well? If so, what method will they be hardened and to what specification?

XxSlowpokexX
12-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Im just wondering if ther eis anything you can do to these machine wise to make the transmission shift better. If going through all this to produce these.

BLOWN38
12-12-2009, 07:32 PM
I'd be interested.

Tim Groth
12-14-2009, 01:51 PM
The part will be produced from the same grade of steel as it was OEM - My father and I were concerned that using a different steel or lower grade material would have a negative effect and could change the characteristics of the part. Since this is an intrical part of the transmission, it's not a part that we wanted to cut corners on and hope for the best.

I have sent everyones questions to my father thru email and will post once I know the particulars as asked. I work in Tele Communications and he is an Engineer so answering specific questions pertaining to build process is his avenue.

SWS - The Part is a 1 piece part as manufactured from Ford - Again this is for the Ring itself the HUB Clips and Retainers would be reused from the orginal part - this was done to keep production costs as low as possible.

-Tim

Tim Groth
12-14-2009, 02:15 PM
Just spoke with my father he told me the material used will be 8620 Steel and the quoted price does include heat treatment and tempering however wasn't sure to the specifications - he said that would be determined by the machine shop making these.

Again the quality will be as good as OEM if not better - not looking to have our name on a part thats going to be junk.

-Tim

seawalkersee
12-14-2009, 04:58 PM
When will these be available? In Feb, I will be down for two. The trans in the car actually had the keys stuck to the drainplug when it came out. I still have not pulled the top off of it, but I have a strange feeling I need the ring...as it was grinding at high RMP shifts.

Tim Groth
12-14-2009, 05:34 PM
When will these be available? In Feb, I will be down for two. The trans in the car actually had the keys stuck to the drainplug when it came out. I still have not pulled the top off of it, but I have a strange feeling I need the ring...as it was grinding at high RMP shifts.

Here's the wording on the Quote we received.

Synchro x 50 @ 165.00 = $8,250.00

NOTE: a 50% deposit will be required and bal in net 30 days for the 50 pcs
Delivery: 36-40 work days from receipt of PO and deposit check

Guess we really have 2 orders of business here:
1: 50 Interested Buyers
2: Arranging Payments/Deposits/Shipping Costs.

It would be ideal to get this ready to go around tax time so folks have money available and it also gives everyone plenty of time to get their ducks in a row. Perhaps break it into 2 payments of $82.50 to help everyones wallet here.

Another thing that needs to be considered is more than likely this is a once and done opportunity for this part, so even if you don't need it now it might be a good part to keep on your shelf and I'm sure if you sold it down the road you'd be able to find a buyer and make back your upfront investment.

-Tim

BLOWN38
12-14-2009, 06:20 PM
I'll be down for 2.

ricardoa1
12-14-2009, 06:43 PM
Is this only for first gear?

Tim Groth
12-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Is this only for first gear?


Yes this is just for the Ring for 1st gear. Again if this is a success I will see if we can also get the other ring produced as well.

-Tim

fastsc92
12-14-2009, 07:04 PM
Just spoke with my father he told me the material used will be 8620 Steel and the quoted price does include heat treatment and tempering however wasn't sure to the specifications - he said that would be determined by the machine shop making these.



This is too much in its infancy for me to jump in, however it is appealing considering parts are scarce for our drivelines. I know I asked before, but it would be nice to know more about how these parts will be treated after they are machined and then I might jump in. It should be up to the engineer involved to determine the specs, not the machine shop.

Tim Groth
12-14-2009, 07:15 PM
This is too much in its infancy for me to jump in, however it is appealing considering parts are scarce for our drivelines. I know I asked before, but it would be nice to know more about how these parts will be treated after they are machined and then I might jump in. It should be up to the engineer involved to determine the specs, not the machine shop.

I beleive the reason he stated it this way is for he is currently doing the design work from home (he is laid off) and doesn't have the equipment to determine the specs on the hardening.

I do know the machine shop has the orginal Ford part from my 94 transmission and the final piece will be completed to the same standards after they test the part. This is also what they based their quote off of...


-Tim

rjgraul
12-14-2009, 09:43 PM
Tim,
Put me down for one, my 94 is going to need work within the next year or so.

Ralph

Micahdogg
12-15-2009, 01:24 AM
I would be down for 1.

Kurt K
12-15-2009, 09:14 AM
I'd be down for one.

Tim Groth
12-15-2009, 01:32 PM
Looks like were up to 9 total rings right, I will add the updates on the first thread as we go.

-Tim

CharlieB
12-15-2009, 03:25 PM
Hardening and tempering of this part will be the critical process. If the fab shop is well versed in die fabrication they will should be able to do the tempering without a problem.

One other thought. What are the "other" market for this part (Ranger, Mazda?). Don't forget the more we make the cheaper each part will be.

I would be interested in 1 also. For the money it's cheap insurance that I can keep a M5R2 going. In most aggressive street driving I hit 2nd hard more than any other gear.

90blkbrd
12-15-2009, 05:22 PM
Nearly every one with a 5spd transmission needs one. Well, 2 actually because it's about 50-50 2nd gear or 3rd gear that gets hammered.



Yes this is just for the Ring for 1st gear. Again if this is a success I will see if we can also get the other ring produced as well.

-Tim

I'm confused. I got the impression that there should be 2 of these in the transmission not one. Isn't the 1-2 and 3-4 assemblies the same?

ricardoa1
12-15-2009, 05:28 PM
Id be interested if the third gear one is made. I rarely have problems with 1st and second. I cannot remember if they are identical but I was going with Tim's assumption that they are different.

And yes one slider takes care of 1 and 2 and the other takes care of 3 and 4. Then reverse and 5th are separate and in a lower location.

Tim Groth
12-15-2009, 07:19 PM
Id be interested if the third gear one is made. I rarely have problems with 1st and second. I cannot remember if they are identical but I was going with Tim's assumption that they are different.

And yes one slider takes care of 1 and 2 and the other takes care of 3 and 4. Then reverse and 5th are separate and in a lower location.


As Ricardo said the sliders control 1-2 (the unit being made here) and also there's a slider for 3-4 (mention in first post this will be considered if this is a success).

As for the design I know that on one of the rings the exterior of the ring is smooth and the other has a grove in the middle of the ring...I currently do not have one in front of me to post pictures or be more precise but I assure you this is true.

Correction
Again without a unit in front of me I posted incorrectly my appologies - Both Sliders have a grove however theres a difference in the lip on each unit. I have posted pictures of the two to show this for better understanding.


-Tim

Micahdogg
12-15-2009, 07:57 PM
the 3/4 ring is reversable. Chances are better of used 3/4 rings having a good 4th gear side. So you can flip it to make that your 3rd gear side. The 1/2 is more critical IMO because it can't be reversed and you almost never find a good 1st or 2nd gear side.

frdlvr30
12-15-2009, 07:58 PM
As Ricardo said the sliders control 1-2 (the unit being made here) and also there's a slider for 3-4 (mention in first post this will be considered if this is a success).

As for the design I know that on one of the rings the exterior of the ring is smooth and the other has a grove in the middle of the ring...I currently do not have one in front of me to post pictures or be more precise but I assure you this is true.

Correction
Again without a unit in front of me I posted incorrectly my appologies - Both Sliders have a grove however theres a difference in the lip on each unit. I have posted pictures of the two to show this for better understanding.


-Tim
Ok, Im going to ask this since I have always wondered. Has anyone ever tried sourcing parts from the M5OD transmissions? I have worked on both. Never side by side though. I swear they look identical. Now I realize that there were several different versions of the M5OD, since is has been used in so many different models for so many years.... If not, does anyone have the Ford Part numbers in question here and I can have them cross referenced?

kendall221
12-15-2009, 08:10 PM
You can put me down for 1.

David
'95 - 5 speed

Tim Groth
12-15-2009, 08:11 PM
Ok, Im going to ask this since I have always wondered. Has anyone ever tried sourcing parts from the M5OD transmissions? I have worked on both. Never side by side though. I swear they look identical. Now I realize that there were several different versions of the M5OD, since is has been used in so many different models for so many years.... If not, does anyone have the Ford Part numbers in question here and I can have them cross referenced?


The synchros themselves are not the blocker rings. The blocker rings are interchangable but the synchros themselves are not. Also the truck version synchros are not the same width as the M5R2 version hense you can't use the shifter forks from a truck trans in a SC trans.

I think this covers your question

-Tim

frdlvr30
12-15-2009, 08:47 PM
I think this covers your question

-Tim

Ok Tim. I figured it was something like that. Just a thought I have had for years watching the 5-speed guys try and find parts. Parts were hard to come by on the Mazda transmissions when were fixing them at the Dealership back in the 90's. You'd have one torn down on the bench for weeks waiting for parts from Japan....Then they'd come and you'd open the Ford box and find the part in a Mazda bag....

BLOWN38
12-15-2009, 09:48 PM
Well since the 1-2 and 3-4 are different i'll be down for one, instead of 2.

seawalkersee
12-16-2009, 10:52 AM
Still down for two...I will try to have my spare built so when I lunch one, I can stick the second in.

So, lets get this party started so we can get the 3-4 built too:D.

SWS

Tim Groth
12-17-2009, 01:49 PM
Just wanted to pass along the email correspondence I've had with my dad from some of your questions - again this being in just the developement stages we have some room to work with to get what everyone is overall interested in.


Mid-States had quoted using S7 steel, heat treating, and drawing it back to 40-41Rc. (Rc just means the hardness using the Rockwell C scale. The people asking you about hardness will know that.) I have asked them to requote using Daido DC53 steel, because it can be heat treated up to 62Rc without losing toughness. That should eliminate all the flat areas that appear in the part you sent to me.

Also, do all the teeth need to be chamfered on both sides? I originally assumed that the teeth were worn, but now it looks like they may have been chamfered. That would add cost, due to 2 milling setups to do that.

Let me know. Thanks. -GG



Tim,

Per your last few emails, I have tried to find a better choice of steel to make the synchros. The original S7 I had quoted, is a shock resisting tool steel and may work just fine. It does not have as high of a hardness as some other steels. I don't have a sense of how these synchros are going to be used. When people start asking about heat treat specs and Rockwell hardness, I get a feeling that maybe they have broken a few of these before from abusing them. I don't want to get into a situation where we produce something that will last just fine for a day to day driver, but cannot take the stress of full throttle car launches. I can foresee warranty issues when one of these things breaks at the drag strip and they want a new part for free. Ford has deep pockets, we do not.

I have gone out for another quote using DC53 steel, which is a die steel used for metal stamping, in case your questioners are looking for extremely hard, durable parts. I have used DC53 for a few years, and although it is expensive, (it comes from Daido steel in Japan), it rarely fails in heavy impact and pressure applications. It also offers machining advantages to the wire EDM process we will be using.

Here is what it boils down to: we can produce an adequate part for less than a high strength race part. There is probably also a larger market for the S7 part and it will probably suffice in most cases. Try to find out if this part is just to get a car back on the road, or if it will be subject to abuse. We might need to make two separate parts, priced accordingly based on the usage.

-GG


-Tim

SCTBIRD1173
12-17-2009, 07:51 PM
I have a couple M5R2's to rebuild but they haven't been apart yet. I'm pretty sure by the time this buy gets underway I'll be in for 2 or at worst 1.

I'll keep an eye on this thread, thanks Tim!

Hock
12-17-2009, 08:40 PM
I would think that it would be best to have both made.

XR7 Dave
12-17-2009, 09:42 PM
No one has ever broken one that I'm aware of. In fact I've never even seen any damage at all from loading. The only damage I've ever seen is purely engagement wear. Keep in mind that wear on the rings generally corresponds to wear on the gears. A new ring may only be part of the solution for a lot of people.

You used to be able to get assemblies from Mazda for about $200 each, but that only gets you the hub and ring, no blocker and no matching gear. Not sure what may be available now anymore.

cntinuum
12-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Greetings! This is great that people can take the time to re-mfg parts. The engineer is the guy to be making the determination of a new part for all characteristics. This is "make to sample" process. The machine shop will have a hardness tester to test the sample for what level of hardness the part is. The question about the process is well founded. It really asks if the machine shop is going to stand behind the part. Normally, parts are field tested before they get to the public.

I met a guy in Bellingham, WA that was building outdrives for the USN. He sourced his parts from all over the world. He was getting a 4 gear cluster shaft for $165 from Israel. This was in 2002. Price of this type of part is all about lot size. The setup is expensive and that is my guess why the machine shop is looking for a minimum lot of 50. I have a 95 5sp and would be interested in this part. Yet I am not willing to bet $200(165+shipping) on a trial balloon.

nccatfan
12-27-2009, 09:38 PM
Do current rebuild kits come with this part? I'll be needing to pull my trans out soon (a year or 2), once my clutch give up the ghost I'll do the rebuild.

Micahdogg
12-28-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm almost positive that a typical "rebuild kit" will not include a 1-2 or 3-4 slider ring.

Tim Groth
01-19-2010, 06:36 PM
I will be setting up a group buy on these at the end of the month - just wanted everyone to know this hasn't been swept under the rug.

Again the key will be 50 interested purchases...hope to do 1/2 up front and 1/2 at end X date.

Details soon to come in group buy.

-Tim

rjgraul
01-20-2010, 08:14 PM
Tim,
Put me down for one.

Thanks,
Ralph

nanatothesixth
04-25-2010, 03:30 PM
did anything ever happen with this? thanks! Tom

Tim Groth
04-26-2010, 03:14 PM
did anything ever happen with this? thanks! Tom

As of today my father sent the OEM Hub from my 94 M5R2 to the machine shop to verify we have the best available material at the best available price. They have the prints he drew up to spec the job, but to make sure we're getting the very best for our money we're taking the extra steps.

Also, please keep in mind to get this rolling we will need 50 purchases up front so thats the primary hurdle we'll have to jump to get production running. Also, this is more than likely a 1 time run.

Once I have what I feel is a firm window of time to start collecting funds I will post in the Group Purchase Section.

-Tim

DamonPearl94
05-10-2010, 01:41 PM
Add me to the list for one

BlackbirdSc94
05-13-2010, 05:12 PM
any news on this?? Id be intrested in one if not two once theres a final word

seawalkersee
08-01-2010, 11:50 AM
Bumpity bump?

SWS

BlownSix
08-07-2010, 01:02 PM
I'm also interested.

Plat0ribs
08-25-2010, 03:19 PM
Interested in one piece.