Air to water Intercooler

kenewagner

kenewagner

Registered User
What could one expect for HP gains, on a built engine with a 2.3 Whipple blower using a large capicity air to water IC with 4 Laminov cores over a home made FMIC? I would be intrested in what you guys think. Will it allow more timing, make considerably more HP do to lower air temps or would it just make for a safety factor in preventing detonation and lengthen the life expectation of the engine. What say all the experts

Ken
 
Water to air makes it easier to cool the air a lot more, with ice or other.
Some engineers feel that a supercharger prefers a shorter path between the outlet and the intake valves.
Water to air IC's have an extremely low pressure drop across the core.
The cores that cool the water, and the lines that run to them, can be a lot smaller so placement is almost a non issue.
Cheaper.
You want a bilge pump/other pump that moves 500-800 GPH.
I use a small container for the reservoir/pump. I'm sure they have systems specifically to eliminate the need for an extra container though.
My setup intention is to use 2 heater cores in front with a draw-thru fan.
The cores can be laid/attached over the rectangular holes of the front bumper (90). Undetectable.

paul
 
rzimmerl said:
Hopefully this doesn't start a fire Ken. I posted about an A to W setup and we had some good posts, but in the end it got out of hand and locked. See link below.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108654
Click to expand...

Yeh I read that one. I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject and I already have the cores. I am fairly sure that the whipple is more blower than my FMIC so I had plan to increase the size of the FMIC by about 30%. I than got to thinking that with the Laminov cores I could build a more efficient IC since I will be doing work on the IC anyway. I would hope this thread doesnt go the way of yours. I want opinions on perfomance gains not opinions such as were expressed on your threads. I am still on the fence at the moment but Im trying to get enough information to make a decision.

Ken
 
You need to consider what your plans are for the car, and that will dictate what system you go with. If its short sprints like the 1/4 mile, the air-water IC can be better, but if its road course or autocross where you are running in boost alot, the air to air is actually better. The biggest problem with air-to-water is removing that heat out of the water, which is harder to do than removing heat from air.

The biggest most important thing you have to look at is the amount of air the motor will be able to consume. Going too big of IC on the air charge side can actually hurt performance because of the velocity drop of the air, which will increase back pressure to the blower, which will increase heat etc, and you are not getting so much air into the motor. I'm not saying it doesn't work having a transport truck sized IC in there, but you are leaving alot on the table.

As for performance gains... you can't put a number to that with an IC, as it does not generate higher numbers, it supports higher numbers. If you are only going to look at power numbers, then you are already heading down the wrong path. Asking that question here will not net much as I have yet to see anyone with real datalogged evidence of what works or not.

Its a shame we cannot have a location where we can have a very logical, scientific and fact finding discussion about IC's where the bs is not allowed... only cold hard facts.

Fraser
 
Frit, you mention the velocity drop and excess heat and backpressure. Do you think this is the reason some lose coating at high od and others are fine at 25%? I know one car with the same fmic as me 32x12x3 his was 4 actually, but 25% and his coating was like new. Seems the people losing coating have stock IC's.

Corey
 
Kene,

If you are interested in making something happen I did significant ground work tracking down part numbers and ideas to make a Laminova intercooler. It is completely achievable and more affordable than you would think. Throw me a PM.
 
neverfastenough said:
Frit, you mention the velocity drop and excess heat and backpressure. Do you think this is the reason some lose coating at high od and others are fine at 25%? I know one car with the same fmic as me 32x12x3 his was 4 actually, but 25% and his coating was like new. Seems the people losing coating have stock IC's.

Corey
Click to expand...

Thats hard to answer without knowing what the back pressure is and the heat involved and the other hundred's of combinations that we don't know about.

Fraser
 
Toms-SC said:
Kene,

If you are interested in making something happen I did significant ground work tracking down part numbers and ideas to make a Laminova intercooler. It is completely achievable and more affordable than you would think. Throw me a PM.
Click to expand...

Will do

Ken
 
fturner said:
better. The biggest problem with air-to-water is removing that heat out of the water, which is harder to do than removing heat from air.

Going too big of IC on the air charge side can actually hurt performance because of the velocity drop of the air, which will increase back pressure to the blower, which will increase heat etc, into the motor. I'm not saying it doesn't work having a transport truck sized IC in there, but you are leaving alot on the table.

As for performance gains... you can't put a number to that with an IC, as it does not generate higher numbers, it supports higher numbers. If you are only going to look at power numbers, then you are already heading down the wrong path. Asking that question here will not net much as I have yet to see anyone with real datalogged evidence of what works or not.

Its a shame we cannot have a location where we can have a very logical, scientific and fact finding discussion about IC's where the bs is not allowed... only cold hard facts.

Fraser
Click to expand...

I am a little confused here. A to big of an IC will increase back pressure. Can you explain that more


If the IC cools the air charge better how would it not generate a better HP #

Im not interested in road courses just the short burst of speed. The Laminov cores would be in a tight package so voluumn wise it like would have no more space to fill up than my existing IC. The biggest diffrence I can see is the amount of surface area to pull heat from and low restriction of air flow over a large area. The water pulls more heat from the cores than air and add ice will put it below ambient temp. A small cooling core added can keep water temp down for just street driving. Would be nice to have professional testing done. Still would like you to tell me more about your statements so I can understand this better

Ken
 
Remember that flow rate of the fluid will effect the efficiency of the inter cooler too. I'm unable to comment on it exactly but it would be the differences between single vrs double pass.
 
Toms-SC said:
Remember that flow rate of the fluid will effect the efficiency of the inter cooler too. I'm unable to comment on it exactly but it would be the differences between single vrs double pass.
Click to expand...

Unfortuniately I cant access the information you sent me here at the shop. My company has all these surcurity filters on internet use:rolleyes: I forwarded it to my home and will read up on it tonight. From what I read last night, you dont want to go from one core to another to another because the first core might be 90 degrees and as heat is picked up might be 105 in the next core and than 115 in the next core. Seems like a single pass through all 4 cores would be the the very best way to go. I still have a lot of reading to do and had hope more people would jump in with opinions or experence. I appriciate imput given;)

Ken
 
kenewagner said:
What could one expect for HP gains, on a built engine with a 2.3 Whipple blower using a large capicity air to water IC with 4 Laminov cores over a home made FMIC? I would be intrested in what you guys think. Will it allow more timing, make considerably more HP do to lower air temps or would it just make for a safety factor in preventing detonation and lengthen the life expectation of the engine. What say all the experts

Ken
Click to expand...

Ken,

How does your home made FMIC's core and tube sizes compare to the MP FMIC ?

David
 
Now lets see if I can put what is in my pea brain down into words....

We know in physics that high velocity air creates low pressure, where as low velocity air creates high pressure. Now think of the transitioning from a high velocity low pressure state to a sudden huge volume area... we know the velocity will suddenly drop and the result from that is the pressure will rise up quickly. Now we need to move that from one region to another, then send it out a small exit. Now we need to take slow moving air to a fast moving state to create the pressure differential we need to get that air into the exit tube. The more this affect has to happen the more work the blower/turbo has to do just to get it out the exit tube. The resulting affect is higher pressure against the charger/turbo.

Its always a trade off, but the closer you get to matching the IC and tubes to the flow of the motor the more efficient the system is, and the less heat being generated in the first place. There is also the thermal efficiency of an IC that has to be considered as well, which is a whole area of physics on its own to.

Fraser
 
David Neibert said:
Ken,

How does your home made FMIC's core and tube sizes compare to the MP FMIC ?

David
Click to expand...

The FMIC I have ran for years is (2) stock IC cores side by side, so my guess is it is a lot smaller than a MP IC. I could add another core and make it 3 wide which would add voluumn and more surface area. The other aternative was to fabricate a new IC. I will decide if I have enough time when I get to that point. I suspect my IC is to small as I have continued to go upwards in size on blowers. I feel the water to air IC could be kept compact in size and still have better flow and far better cooling than my present one. The picture was taken of the IC when I installed it 6 years ago. Now I feel it is outgrown

Ken
 

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Ken, do you have any ACT data that makes you think that its not keeping up with the Whipple? Theoretically your blower outlet temps should have dropped due to the efficiency of the twin screw, and the blower rpms you are spinning.
 
fturner said:
Now lets see if I can put what is in my pea brain down into words....

We know in physics that high velocity air creates low pressure, where as low velocity air creates high pressure. Now think of the transitioning from a high velocity low pressure state to a sudden huge volume area... we know the velocity will suddenly drop and the result from that is the pressure will rise up quickly. Now we need to move that from one region to another, then send it out a small exit. Now we need to take slow moving air to a fast moving state to create the pressure differential we need to get that air into the exit tube. The more this affect has to happen the more work the blower/turbo has to do just to get it out the exit tube. The resulting affect is higher pressure against the charger/turbo.

Its always a trade off, but the closer you get to matching the IC and tubes to the flow of the motor the more efficient the system is, and the less heat being generated in the first place. There is also the thermal efficiency of an IC that has to be considered as well, which is a whole area of physics on its own to.

Fraser
Click to expand...

So heres what I know about my existing set up. The existing intercooler has a core size of 12" tall by 16" wide. I would consider that to be small by most Sc standards. The engine is a built engine with a 2.3 whipple & I expect to push upwards of 22 lbs of boost. You said you have already surpassed your double IC which is the same size as my front mount only diffrent configuration. That tells me using you as a fountain of information I need a bigger IC. I dont know how much more air you plan on pushing from your upgrading but I would doubt it will equal the whipple. Thats why I am trying to find a way to up grade or reinvent the wheel. So I am looking for any and all the help I can get

Ken
 
rzimmerl said:
Ken, do you have any ACT data that makes you think that its not keeping up with the Whipple? Theoretically your blower outlet temps should have dropped due to the efficiency of the twin screw, and the blower rpms you are spinning.
Click to expand...

I dont have any data on ACT since the only thing I did last year was run the car on a dyno to check AFR and see what it would put down in HP. I couldnt see spending money to tune it when a new engine was being assembled by Dave to bolt it to. It seems to me to be logical to assume that upgrading from a 1.5 M90 to a 1.8 M112 to a Whipple 2.3 that I have outgrown the Intercooler. It would be a shame to upgrade MAF, TB and headers only to find I still have one restriction left in the Intercooler. I know I could build a kick ~~~ water to air IC. But I also have a lot of other projects that I need to do to keep funding the money pit.

Ken
 
Ken, if I may, I think the reason most people say they have surpassed the limits of the DIC are because of the characteristics of it in our cars. Look at it this way, no matter how well the DIC is designed, it has crappy airflow going to it, and sits right next to our radiator.

Your FMIC may be the same size as the two cores used to build the DIC, BUT you gotta think, your FMIC is now getting ALOT more airflow to it just because of the location. Not to mention, it's thinner which means air will actually flow through it.

That's just my opinion though. That's the only reason I've considered a FMIC.

-Corey
 
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