HP diffrence between twin screw blowers

kenewagner

Registered User
Here is a question to kick around for debate. You have (3) blowers on the same car.

(1) 1.7AR
(2) 2.0AR
(3) 2.3 Whipple

All set to make 19lbs of boost. How much more HP will the 2.0 make over the 1.7? How much more HP will the 2.3 make over the 2.0 at the same boost. Remember they are all pulleyed to make 19lbs of boost and all ran on the same car. This is a Hypthetical question and not trying to make this into a trick question. Just want to see what peoples opinions are on going bigger on a twin screw.

Ken
 
Well youd think the 2.3 could supply the most boost with the least ammount of OD, and therefore it would use the least ammount of hp to turn it. Unless rotor size and length and the ammount of air they are pulling in effects load. Thats my .02

Corey
 
Ken,

IMO, Unless the 1.7 AR is operating outside of it's efficiency range, and it wouldn't be at 19 pounds on a 3.8, then all three should make the same peak power. The two larger blowers may even make a little less power (under the curve) because of needing to accelerate more mass.

David
 
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The blower with the curve at peak matching right where the engine itself makes peak power will be winner I would think.

If you have an engine that has a cam with a long rev range to make flat long power, the the larger blower might allow the engine make more power longer, when the smaller blowers are spun beyond its designed range.



Lets hear what the experts will say.
 
If you have an engine that has a cam with a long rev range to make flat long power, the the larger blower might allow the engine make more power longer, when the smaller blowers are spun beyond its designed range.

Remember we are talking a fixed maximum PSI of 19. So each supercharger is on equal ground.

I'd bet there would be less than 20 hp between the 3 superchargers.
 
Remember we are talking a fixed maximum PSI of 19. So each supercharger is on equal ground.

I'd bet there would be less than 20 hp between the 3 superchargers.

We are talking twinscrews so compression takes effects. If it was roots and you are able to maintain 19 psi the whole time then we can say its equal grounds.
 
Question is invalid.

The twin screw on a 3.8L will not maintain a steady 19psi.

The best comparison would be to pulley the blowers, based on rpm and displacement only, so that theoretic cfm should be the same, and then let the boost and power fall where it may.

You'll find that the smaller blower is more responsive on the lower end and makes more torque and then you'll find that the bigger ones want to make more power on top but then you'll run out of engine rpm before that happens so the results will be inconclusive.
 
Here is a question to kick around for debate. You have (3) blowers on the same car.

Ken

I want to know how you got 3 blowers on the car and what kind of hood do you have? Not only that, I would bet the engine grenades once you touch the gas pedal.
 
The twin screw on a 3.8L will not maintain a steady 19psi.

I don't think he mean that. The goal of the thread was to limit psi, 19 was chosen because that seems to be about the norm for the big dogs.

You'll find that the smaller blower is more responsive on the lower end and makes more torque and then you'll find that the bigger ones want to make more power on top but then you'll run out of engine rpm before that happens so the results will be inconclusive.

Since most 3.8 SC engines that are limited to 5500-6500 rpms due to valve train components, the 1.7 is the best choice?
 
Question is invalid.



The best comparison would be to pulley the blowers, based on rpm
You'll find that the smaller blower is more responsive on the lower end and makes more torque and then you'll find that the bigger ones want to make more power on top but then you'll run out of engine rpm before that happens so the results will be inconclusive.

Why would the smaller blower make more tq on the lower end. It seem when comparring the M90 to the M112 the M112 made incredable tq on the bottom end due to moving a lot of air right off the get go with the higher displacement. Would not the 2.3 move a lot of air in the lower rpms due to its higher displacement and still have more than enough for the top end?

If you are running a very built engine with all the goodies that makes power to 6,300 rpm and you pulley the 3 blowers (one at a time on the engine Duane):rolleyes: at the same rpm what would you beleive their HP diffrence would be?

Does a bigger blower make more power than a smaller blower. Whipple claims their new generation Whipple is more efficient than previous ones. Does that mean you can turn it slower, use less HP and still make the same boost & more HP. Does it make any sense to up grade to a bigger blower if you have a 1.7? I would leave David Neibert out of that question as he has a bigger displacement engine.

I am just trying to get a feel for all this and kicking it around for discussion is a good way to do that. You never know if some one doesnt ask;)

Ken
 
correct me if im wrong here, 19psi at 400cfm and 19psi at 1800cfm is what makes the difference. so i do believe that since all 3 spin the same psi it would come down to which one pushes the most air.
 
Why would the smaller blower make more tq on the lower end. It seem when comparring the M90 to the M112 the M112 made incredable tq on the bottom end due to moving a lot of air right off the get go with the higher displacement. Would not the 2.3 move a lot of air in the lower rpms due to its higher displacement and still have more than enough for the top end?

I think what Dave meant was that if you choose OD ratios for each blower so that the maximum boost is 19 psi or less, then you must be driving the smaller blower faster than the larger one. Ergo, the smaller blower will spin faster at low RPMs, making more boost at that point. But it will run out of capacity higher in the RPM range, falling off in efficiency and making less boost than the larger blower.
 
References to Ricardo's car making monstrous torque is simply misleading. I really hate even getting into these arguments because the data is so completely flawed that no conclusions can be drawn.

Ricardo's car had, at the time, a mild cam specifically designed to have great low end response since he insisted that the car "respond at 1800rpm". Yes, his cam was designed to do that. Then, he added Rhoads lifters which decrease low rpm duration even more which further enhanced low rpm cylinder pressure. Then, he insisted on overdriving the M112 by 15% creating ridiculous amounts of boost at low rpm. By higher rpms the blower seemed to be "out of breath" as boost actually fell off slightly and power was down significantly due to extreme heat. I told Ricardo at the time I didn't think the combination was anything close to safe or reasonable and I still hold to that opinion.

Then later, he ditched the Rhoads lifters and went up significantly in cam duration which killed his bottom end regardless of what blower it may or may not have had. That he didn't run the car that way with the M112 is irrelevant. It wouldn't have made torque numbers anywhere close to what it did with the other cam and lifters, but that point is mute anymore since he has the AR on it now.

As for a twin screw, you have to look at blower rpm and compressor efficiency. At very low rpms the power consumption is higher and the VE lower on the big twin screws. The 1.7 will come "up on its map" sooner and will make 19psi on most motors without breaking a sweat all the way to 6200rpm. That's where mine made peak power and it was at 19psi. Look at the dyno chart to see what I mean. At that point I don't think you'd see a significant difference between the 1.7 and a 2.3.

Now if you drive the supercharger faster and take it higher, things start to get different. But, 99% of all SC motors aren't the slightest bit efficient above 6000rpm anyway, so again, the point is mute. Who cares which SC is most efficient when you are so far out of the engine's operating range that the motor isn't making power anyway?

There are about 4 SC engines out there that have the ability to rev beyond 6200rpm without getting into various forms of valve float. Just something to ponder.

As for Whipple's claims of a more efficient blower, they are really splitting hairs to justify their higher prices. It's like a cylinder head that flows 230cfm vs on that flows 220cfm. SC people will go nuts for the extra 10cfm but then scratch their heads when a 190cfm head waxes them at the track. Too much emphasis on the wrong things. Not that flow isn't important, but it's just one aspect in the overall package.
 
Take two on the M112 Soon to happen. ;) And as you noticed Ive been listening you Dave. Let see what we can do this time with some of your advise. LOL


On the twinscrew scenario. I feel like I went slightly big on my cam, the car pulls great, but with the truck 5spd I cannot get my car into gear very well when going past 5500 rpms. Its hurting my times for sure. But the car has smooth pull power all the way and past 6000 rpms. When does valve float affect us? I dont feel it in my car till I get to almost 7000rpms. The 2.3l is the only game in town, but I always felt it was oversized for what the typical SC engine can do. Will it hurt? If it does its neglible and should not turn down anyone who is building it or getting it.

I know the 1.7l can flow some air but some of us with it feel like more can be done to the inlet to bennefit from it.

We are facing what looks like a wall with our cars. But what where we are gaining, mostly Dalky by being exposed to so many different set ups is how to maximize whats avail to us to get us to that wall faster and cheaper with available parts.

MPXs running 11s who would have thought....
 
Ricardo, your heads are Steig versions that employ a special valve spring capable of more rpm, but if you get to the point where you feel valve float, you are in a position that is dangerous to creating contact with the pistons which will not be pretty, not to mention it's extremely hard on other valvetrain parts. Drop a valve at that rpm and you'll be lucky to salvage anything from the motor.

This is also a good time to bring up the fact that a lot of SC engines do not have sufficient piston to valve clearance. Many of the early "group buy" pistons (Diamond, JE, etc.) were pushed through without valve reliefs in the pistons. If you were running a Dr. Fred 520 cam it was no big deal, but with .600" lift like a lot of you are running, you may be dangerously close to impact. Minimum clearance for a solid roller with 250psi seat pressure (to maintain strict valve control) is .060-.080" depending on which expert you are talking to, with .120" being more of an industry standard but I've personally measured as little as .050" on some motors that have come to my shop for service. I've had to cut valve relief's in pistons for several of you.

At 7000rpm the 1.7 isn't doing too well anymore and should be upgraded to at least a 2.0L. But then again, our cylinder heads pretty much pack it in by then anyway so how much is there really to gain? Hard to say. As for the inlet plenum, I can tell you that at least on average the AR plenums flow more than an MP plenum so they aren't as bad as you might think. Put a manometer on them if you want to see how much vacuum is being created there. I've always deferred to the concept that if boost is still climbing then CFM must be also. If we noted a drop in boost (like we do when overdriving an MPII with a stock inlet) then I would say that the plenum is a problem but we are not seeing that. Until that happens there probably isn't much to be gained with a bigger plenum.

As with most things flow related, you don't see an improvement in performance until you demonstrate an actual need for more flow. This is also why bolting a great set of heads on an otherwise stock motor produces minimal results. Improvements that the Mustang guys see with the big blower plenums is a function of how much air their motors need. A big plenum on what was a 600rwhp car may result in a big gain, but if you take the same car and pulley it down to 425rwhp and then bolt on the big plenum then you will not see much if any gain at all. You have to be able to max out the current combination before going bigger will help. The only problem with the 1.7L at 7000rpm is that the blower rpm is starting to kill performance and risk damage to the blower. It's not the size that matters, it's the drop in VE and increase in frictional drag that make a bigger blower more attractive.
 
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