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David Neibert
06-16-2010, 11:09 AM
Drove my 91 today and made a stop on the way to work, when I tried getting back into the car using the aftermarket alarm key fob it chirped and flashed the lights, but didn't unlock the car. I tried it a few times with no luck then used the key to get in. The arm and disarm function of the alarm is working. The switch on the DS door and the key fob will lock the doors, but neither will unlock them.

I don't know enough about how the aftermarket alarm system activates the solenoid or whatever is used to lock and unlock the door, to determine if the problem is with the door switch or with the solenoid that moves the locking mechanism. Which one do you guys think is causing the problem ?

David

Mike8675309
06-16-2010, 11:15 AM
There is likely a relay attached to the alarm system that triggers the door lock solenoids. My guess is either the relay failed, or a fuse for the relay has failed, or the alarm system control signal has an issue.

Could just be a connector fell off. Though where it would be I'm not sure.

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 11:17 AM
If it matters, this car is not equipped with a keyless entry pad.

David

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 11:20 AM
There is likely a relay attached to the alarm system that triggers the door lock solenoids. My guess is either the relay failed, or a fuse for the relay has failed, or the alarm system control signal has an issue.

Could just be a connector fell off. Though where it would be I'm not sure.

If it was the relay, wouldn't the door switch still work ? If it was a fuse for the relay I wouldn't expect the fob to be able to lock the doors.

David

ricardoa1
06-16-2010, 11:20 AM
Most aftermaket units have a internal relay in the module that sends a trigger signal to the stock lock wire and another to the unlock wire.

Mike is on the right track..Try unlocking the door with the switch on your doors to eliminate the possibility of the cars mechanism and narrowing it down to the aftermaket alarm.

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Most aftermaket units have a internal relay in the module that sends a trigger signal to the stock lock wire and another to the unlock wire.

Mike is on the right track..Try unlocking the door with the switch on your doors to eliminate the possibility of the cars mechanism and narrowing it down to the aftermaket alarm.

Ricardo,

I did try unlocking them using the door switch...NO GO. The DS door switch will lock them and so will the key fob, but neither will unlock them. I have to use the key if outside and the door handle if inside to unlock them. Just went out and tryed the PS side door lock switch and it will lock and unlock both sides, so I guess that eliminates the solenoid.

Is it possible that a bad door switch on the DS side could, prevent the remote from working too ?

David

Mike8675309
06-16-2010, 12:21 PM
o.k.. you had too many words.

you have an aftermarket alarm with aftermarket keyless entry. Door switch will lock the door but not unlock the door. Aftermarket keyless entry will lock the door but not unlock the door.

That points to a failure in the power door lock actuator for the factory, as the key fob probably is just energizing the factory electric lock mechanism (via a relay) You could test by sending power to actuate the unlock at the switch. From the diagrams I could find, it appears the actuator grounds to the chassis, and has two wires feeding it. One is power to lock, one is power to unlock.

The switch has a center power feed, and at the top and bottom corners is either the lock/unlock or ground.

Actuators are available aftermarket, but they are pricey. Considering how rare they fail, a used one may be a better deal.

ricardoa1
06-16-2010, 12:26 PM
Ricardo,

I did try unlocking them using the door switch...NO GO. The DS door switch will lock them and so will the key fob, but neither will unlock them. I have to use the key if outside and the door handle if inside to unlock them. Just went out and tryed the PS side door lock switch and it will lock and unlock both sides, so I guess that eliminates the solenoid.

Is it possible that a bad door switch on the DS side could, prevent the remote from working too ?

David

Your problem is in the car components not the aftermaket alarm. I assume your alarm or keyless entry is wired to the drivers side switch.

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
o.k.. you had too many words.

you have an aftermarket alarm with aftermarket keyless entry. Door switch will lock the door but not unlock the door. Aftermarket keyless entry will lock the door but not unlock the door.

That points to a failure in the power door lock actuator for the factory, as the key fob probably is just energizing the factory electric lock mechanism (via a relay) You could test by sending power to actuate the unlock at the switch. From the diagrams I could find, it appears the actuator grounds to the chassis, and has two wires feeding it. One is power to lock, one is power to unlock.

The switch has a center power feed, and at the top and bottom corners is either the lock/unlock or ground.

Actuators are available aftermarket, but they are pricey. Considering how rare they fail, a used one may be a better deal.

Mike,

I just went out and tried the passenger side door mounted switch, and it will lock and unlock both sides, so I don't think it's the acuator. From what you and Ricardo have described it almost sounds like it has to be a problem with the driver's side unlock power wire between the relay and the acuator/solenoid. This assumes that the unlock power wire from the passenger side switch is differnt, because it is working.

Can a bad driver's side switch prevent the key fob from unlocking it ?

David

ricardoa1
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
o.k.. you had too many words.

you have an aftermarket alarm with aftermarket keyless entry. Door switch will lock the door but not unlock the door. Aftermarket keyless entry will lock the door but not unlock the door.

That points to a failure in the power door lock actuator for the factory, as the key fob probably is just energizing the factory electric lock mechanism (via a relay) You could test by sending power to actuate the unlock at the switch. From the diagrams I could find, it appears the actuator grounds to the chassis, and has two wires feeding it. One is power to lock, one is power to unlock.

The switch has a center power feed, and at the top and bottom corners is either the lock/unlock or ground.

Actuators are available aftermarket, but they are pricey. Considering how rare they fail, a used one may be a better deal.

Mike he mentions that the passenger switch unlocks the car so i think the actuator is ok. The problem must be with the unlock ground on the drivers door....same wire that the alarm taps into.

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 12:32 PM
Your problem is in the car components not the aftermaket alarm. I assume your alarm or keyless entry is wired to the drivers side switch.

I think you are correct. Since I don't have a clue how the alarm system was wired in, I'm going to try changing the driver's side switch and go from there.

David

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 12:35 PM
Mike he mentions that the passenger switch unlocks the car so i think the actuator is ok. The problem must be with the unlock ground on the drivers door....same wire that the alarm taps into.

Any idea what color the DS unlock ground wire is, or where on the car they would have tapped into the wire ?

ricardoa1
06-16-2010, 12:41 PM
The wire runs down into the kick panel. If you remove it you might be able to see where the guys who wired the alarm tapped into it with some vampire taps. I have not seen anyone run the alarm wires up thru the door into behind the door panel. They take the shortcut and tap at the kick panel where your hood latch lever is. I dont know the color sorry.

XR7 Dave
06-16-2010, 01:12 PM
It pretty much has to be a bad switch on the driver's side because the system is a simple reversing polarity. The alarm relays are inserted between the driver's switch and the actuator. When the relays are not in use they rest at continuity which is what allows the passenger side switch to work. When the relays activate they send alternately power and ground to the actuator, power via the alarm fuse, and ground via the switch. Since the alarm will lock the doors, it can't be an alarm fuse. Since the drivers side actuator actually works when fed from the passenger switch, the only part remaining in the circuit is the driver's side switch and the ground that is on the other side of the switch. However, since the driver side switch will lock the doors that means the ground is good and subsequently it can only mean that the driver side switch is bad.

Either that or I forgot everything I learned about door lock systems. :)

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
It pretty much has to be a bad switch on the driver's side because the system is a simple reversing polarity. The alarm relays are inserted between the driver's switch and the actuator. When the relays are not in use they rest at continuity which is what allows the passenger side switch to work. When the relays activate they send alternately power and ground to the actuator, power via the alarm fuse, and ground via the switch. Since the alarm will lock the doors, it can't be an alarm fuse. Since the drivers side actuator actually works when fed from the passenger switch, the only part remaining in the circuit is the driver's side switch and the ground that is on the other side of the switch. However, since the driver side switch will lock the doors that means the ground is good and subsequently it can only mean that the driver side switch is bad.

Either that or I forgot everything I learned about door lock systems. :)

Sounds pretty convincing to me...I'll change the switch.

David

the-big-e
06-16-2010, 02:34 PM
I vote for a bad switch.....

I've replaced quite a few due to the same problem.....

Mike8675309
06-16-2010, 03:34 PM
Can a bad driver's side switch prevent the key fob from unlocking it ?


perhaps, as Dave D described. You can test the wires pretty easy. pull the switch off the plug. The center connector on the plug should be 12v and hot with key off. One of the bottom two and one of the top to will be common to ground, the other two open. Jumper the center to the non-ground pins and the actuator should pop. If it does... then your switch is bad.

I can't recall if you can just take the passenger switch and swap it with the drivers side. Also, you can get at all this without removing the door panel. just pop up the panel over the switches.

David Neibert
06-16-2010, 05:17 PM
perhaps, as Dave D described. You can test the wires pretty easy. pull the switch off the plug. The center connector on the plug should be 12v and hot with key off. One of the bottom two and one of the top to will be common to ground, the other two open. Jumper the center to the non-ground pins and the actuator should pop. If it does... then your switch is bad.

I can't recall if you can just take the passenger switch and swap it with the drivers side. Also, you can get at all this without removing the door panel. just pop up the panel over the switches.

Thanks for the info.

David

frdlvr30
06-16-2010, 08:56 PM
I have seen the wiring at the door A pillar cause issues like this from all the bending and folding over the years.... But it is likely the switch...

VicRattlehead
06-16-2010, 08:56 PM
Sounds like the car I unsafe and shouldn't be on any public streets again, brin it to me and Tony and I will dispose of it properly.



:)


In my limited electrical experience I'd have to agree with Dave change the switch and it should be good.

seawalkersee
06-17-2010, 01:49 PM
Errrr...more than likely if you swap the switch from the ps to the ds it will work. IF NOT, you need to pull the rubber hose back between the door and the body and pull the corosponding color wire (from the switch) out of the loom. I bet it pulls right out and is broken. Easy to fix, but is time consuming if you do it right.

SWS

David Neibert
06-18-2010, 08:32 AM
I've got a replacment switch coming from Eddie, if that doesn't fix it I'll start tracing down the wires.

David

David Neibert
06-20-2010, 10:09 AM
Replaced the switch this morning, and it's doing the same thing. Eddie sent me two switches and I tried them both with the same result, so I'm thinking the switch isn't the problem. I'll start looking for broken wire :(

David

XR7 Dave
06-20-2010, 03:20 PM
Replaced the switch this morning, and it's doing the same thing. Eddie sent me two switches and I tried them both with the same result, so I'm thinking the switch isn't the problem. I'll start looking for broken wire :(

David

Look for where they tapped into the wires for the alarm. They may have cut the wire or it may be corroded. That would be below the driver's kick panel under the carpet. With my explanation I wasn't thinking about the 2 sets of wires that go into the driver's door - one from the passenger switch and one from the drivers. They are separate circuits. It could also be a bad relay. Relays don't usually give trouble unless they get wet, and unfortunately it's not uncommon for water to get in there.

It could be a break in the wire where it goes into the door, but I'd look where the alarm relays are tapped in first (which is 99% likely to be under the carpet below the A pillar).

91 XR7
06-20-2010, 03:28 PM
So you don't have factory Keyless entry (remote or Key Pad) and the doors luck on BOTH sides and even with the aftermarket Alarm, but the doors don't unlock other then from the passenger side door..

With out knowing how the aftermarket alarm is tapped into the Car to do the door locks, one can only presume they took the normal route with a switching relays (30 to the actuators, 87A to door switch, 87/86 to Positive, 85 to Alarm module)

Being the system is rested to ground and the the switches apply positive current down one of the wires to get the actuator to work

Also Since the passenger door lock switch gets it's ground from the driver switch VIA the Pink w/Light green and the Pink w/ Yellow.. wires.. So if you got full control over the door locks from the passenger side (lock and unlock) that'll mean that those wires are both good..

Maybe it's how the person that installed the aftermarket part wired it up wrong, or differently then normal.. and since a part there may have failed.... So i'll say track down where these connections/relays are and check those out..

frdlvr30
06-20-2010, 11:20 PM
Pink and light green wire runs from the passenger door lock switch to the drivers door lock switch. It controls the unlock function for both door lock actuators via either switch. That is your problem...seen it several times before....They are grounded on the same circuit for lock and unlock so it isnt a ground issue....just reverses the polarity like mentioned before...I put my money on a broken PK/LG wire in the door pillar grommet...Take the door panel off. Pull the speaker out for easier access to the wiring and pull the wiring and grommet into the door and see what you can see....

frdlvr30
07-01-2010, 07:00 PM
Did you ever figure this out David?

David Neibert
07-04-2010, 02:59 PM
Did you ever figure this out David?

As a part of our TBU meet this weekend, we took a beer break to look at the wiring under the driver's side kick panel, to see if we could find a bad connection or broken wire where the aftermarket alarm was wired in.

Didn't find any problems with the wiring but the relay they added for the alarm and remote door locks was cracked and missing a chunck of plastic and the 15 amp fuse for the relay was blown. After replacing the fuse it did the same thing, and was pulling enough power to dim the interior lights when holding the unlock switch down, and the switch was getting hot. We suspect the relay is bad and I'll be replacing it soon.

David

David Neibert
08-07-2010, 03:09 PM
I replaced the relay earlier today...it's still doing the same thing :(

David

91 XR7
08-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Are we sure the relays are hooked up correctly??

What's the stock, non-keyless entry lock system is like in these cars

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_cars/4870645198/" title="PDL by 91XR7, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4870645198_9470df91a9_b.jpg" width="834" height="552" alt="PDL" /></a>

The relays should be in series with circuits 120 and 119 (one each) with the `30' leg of the relay heading towards the passenger side switch, and the 87A's to the Drivers switch, 87's should have positive power going to them and either the 85 or if correct 86 terminal on the relays the other terminal to the alarm system

test it out by bypassing the relays, figure out which two terminals on each relay got to the factory wires, and just put a piece of wire between those two terminals and try the driver side power door lock switch.

Link to how the relays should be wired (http://www.the12volt.com/doorlocks/page3.asp#5w)

91 XR7
08-07-2010, 10:21 PM
another thought since it WAS working, make sure there is no frayed wiring.. make sure the wiring added for the relays hasn't rubbed through any sharp metal parts.. Heck a quick test on THAT one would be unplug the drivers switch, and go try the passenger side switch, if lock or unlock works, then you know a circuit is grounded somewhere, since with the drivers switch disconnected, the passenger side should not work at all

David Neibert
08-08-2010, 12:33 PM
another thought since it WAS working, make sure there is no frayed wiring.. make sure the wiring added for the relays hasn't rubbed through any sharp metal parts.. Heck a quick test on THAT one would be unplug the drivers switch, and go try the passenger side switch, if lock or unlock works, then you know a circuit is grounded somewhere, since with the drivers switch disconnected, the passenger side should not work at all

The relay used for this aftermarket sysem is not like a standard automotive relay with the various terminal markings...here's picture of the one I removed. The wiring connections are all good, where the relay is spliced into the factory wiring.

I think you are correct that there is a wire that has rubbed through the insulation and is shorting out (most likely in the bundle near the door hinges), because when I try unlocking the door with either the key fob or the driver's side switch it dims the interior lights, but only when depressing the switch or fob button.

If I knew which wire it was, I could just run a new one. Based on what it's doing, can you are anyone else tell me which color wire or wires it should be ??

Thanks, David

91 XR7
08-08-2010, 01:24 PM
Do the test i stated above, remove the drivers switch then try the door lock button on the passenger side..

so they wired in one of those setups..

Purple is positive
Green is unlock (to the pink w/ Yellow to passenger switch)
Blue is Lock (To the pink w/Green to passenger switch)
White is Unlock from drivers switch (pink w/ yellow)
Brown is Lock from Drivers switch (pink w/ Green)

The small ones are triggers for the relays inside from the alarm system (Red power, Blue lock, green unlock)

i may have the lock and unlock colors backwards thou.. but i think i'm correct? :o

91 XR7
08-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Also another train of thought, the Drivers door switch will not unlock the door, nor the alarm, but the passenger door switch will.. NOW
I say the problem will be between the Alarm Relay Box and the passenger door switch.. which should be somewhere along the Pink W/ yellow wire from the alarms relay box to the passenger door switch:)

NOW you'll think that'll go through the dash.. No no..

From the Drivers switch, down the drivers side of the car, then goes across the front edge of the rear seat cushion then up the passenger side, then to the passenger switch.
Least it's `easy' to chase the wiring, remove sill plates and back seat bottom (all of 5 minutes?) :)

frdlvr30
08-08-2010, 02:04 PM
David,
Try what I suggested in Post 26. No sense in running a whole new wire for something like what I think is going on. Just my opinion though...

moovn2vegas
08-08-2010, 05:20 PM
mite not help but bulldog security is a site that gives diagrams very useful sometimes when messing w/ alarms, remote start units. good luck

David Neibert
08-08-2010, 06:46 PM
Pink and light green wire runs from the passenger door lock switch to the drivers door lock switch. It controls the unlock function for both door lock actuators via either switch. That is your problem...seen it several times before....They are grounded on the same circuit for lock and unlock so it isnt a ground issue....just reverses the polarity like mentioned before...I put my money on a broken PK/LG wire in the door pillar grommet...Take the door panel off. Pull the speaker out for easier access to the wiring and pull the wiring and grommet into the door and see what you can see....

Just to clarify the wire color...Pink w/light green stripe ?

David

David Neibert
08-08-2010, 06:51 PM
Also another train of thought, the Drivers door switch will not unlock the door, nor the alarm, but the passenger door switch will.. NOW
I say the problem will be between the Alarm Relay Box and the passenger door switch.. which should be somewhere along the Pink W/ yellow wire from the alarms relay box to the passenger door switch:)

NOW you'll think that'll go through the dash.. No no..

From the Drivers switch, down the drivers side of the car, then goes across the front edge of the rear seat cushion then up the passenger side, then to the passenger switch.
Least it's `easy' to chase the wiring, remove sill plates and back seat bottom (all of 5 minutes?) :)

If the wire Dave suggested turns out to be okay I'll start digging into the one you are suggesting. BTW, I hate wiring problems.

Thanks, David

91 XR7
08-08-2010, 09:24 PM
Just to clarify the wire color...Pink w/light green stripe ?


Just so you know, if that wire (pink w/ Light Green) is broken, as a possibility stated in post #26, then only ONE function at the passenger door lock switch will work.. But hey, have fun with it :)

BUT if you car has the factory Key pad on the drivers door or factory key-less entry, it may be possible ??

David Neibert
08-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Just so you know, if that wire (pink w/ Light Green) is broken, as a possibility stated in post #26, then only ONE function at the passenger door lock switch will work.. But hey, have fun with it :)

BUT if you car has the factory Key pad on the drivers door or factory key-less entry, it may be possible ??

I don't have a key pad or factory keyless entry on this car.

David

frdlvr30
08-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Just to clarify the wire color...Pink w/light green stripe ?

David

Yes David,


That one is on the unlock side. I just read that the passenger side will unlock the doors though. That one cannot be broken then(Pk/LG).
FOur wires you are looking for....
Pk/Lg unlock betweeen both switches
Pk/Y Lock beween both switches
Pk/Orange Lock functon for Anti-thft
Pk/Black Unlock function for Anti-thft
Just take it aprt and have a look....

David Neibert
08-09-2010, 01:16 PM
Just so you know, if that wire (pink w/ Light Green) is broken, as a possibility stated in post #26, then only ONE function at the passenger door lock switch will work.. But hey, have fun with it :)

BUT if you car has the factory Key pad on the drivers door or factory key-less entry, it may be possible ??





Yes David,


That one is on the unlock side. I just read that the passenger side will unlock the doors though. That one cannot be broken then(Pk/LG).
FOur wires you are looking for....
Pk/Lg unlock betweeen both switches
Pk/Y Lock beween both switches
Pk/Orange Lock functon for Anti-thft
Pk/Black Unlock function for Anti-thft
Just take it aprt and have a look....

You guys are making my head hurt.

I'm assuming that I have a wire with damaged insulation allowing contact with body of the car that is preventing the unlock function to work from the key fob or the drivers side switch.

A quick recap of the symptoms and what has already been done.

The driver's side switch will lock the doors, the key fob will lock the doors and arm the aftermarket security system, the key fob will disarm the security system when used in the unlock position but will not unlock the doors (only dims the interior lights), the driver's side switch will not unlock the doors, but does dim the interior lights when depressed. Using the door lock switches manually has no impact on the security system arm or disarm (never did) The passenger side switch will lock and unlock both doors, and has no impact on the security system.

The both door switches have been replaced, the driver and passenger sided switches were even swapped and the problem remains on the driver's side. The aftermarket security system relay has been replaced. It should be noted that holding the key fob in the unlock position for too long will cause the fuse for the relay to blow. NOTE: The doors were removed from the car when it was repainted in 2007 and it's possible the wires were not reinstalled properly, which makes me think the problem is in the bundle that flexes everytime the driver's door is opened and closed.

With all that being said....which color wire is most likely to be causing the problem ?

David

frdlvr30
08-09-2010, 02:25 PM
You guys are making my head hurt.

I'm assuming that I have a wire with damaged insulation allowing contact with body of the car that is preventing the unlock function to work from the key fob or the drivers side switch.

A quick recap of the symptoms and what has already been done.

The driver's side switch will lock the doors, the key fob will lock the doors and arm the aftermarket security system, the key fob will disarm the security system when used in the unlock position but will not unlock the doors (only dims the interior lights), the driver's side switch will not unlock the doors, but does dim the interior lights when depressed. Using the door lock switches manually has no impact on the security system arm or disarm (never did) The passenger side switch will lock and unlock both doors, and has no impact on the security system.

The both door switches have been replaced, the driver and passenger sided switches were even swapped and the problem remains on the driver's side. The aftermarket security system relay has been replaced. It should be noted that holding the key fob in the unlock position for too long will cause the fuse for the relay to blow. NOTE: The doors were removed from the car when it was repainted in 2007 and it's possible the wires were not reinstalled properly, which makes me think the problem is in the bundle that flexes everytime the driver's door is opened and closed.

With all that being said....which color wire is most likely to be causing the problem ?

David

Im sorry David, I missed the passenger side functions correctly initially...I think that the other guy is correct....Pk/Y... It will be obvious if it is infact in that door grommet bend.....

91 XR7
08-09-2010, 06:31 PM
Sorry david about that headache :)

If you where closer i could do it for you.. Automotive Electrical is my thing :)
Should take pics to show you what i do at work here :p From making chassis harnesses to Modifing OEM Drive by Wire Engine management wiring to work in these cars i build :o thinking of which.. back to work i go :)

David Neibert
08-09-2010, 07:35 PM
Talked with someone who has done a lot of parting out and wiring on MN12s and after reviewing the electrical diagram you posted earlier in the thread, he assures me that it isn't wired exactly as shown on the diagram and that I should find my problem on the PK/Y wire between the driver's side switch and the driver's side lock acuator.

When the weather cools off a little I'll pull the door panel off and see what I've got inside, and if that doesn't work I'll start tracing the PK/Y wire around the car until I find the problem.

Thanks for all the input.

David

91 XR7
08-09-2010, 10:41 PM
Either way, good luck :o

I still say unplug the drivers switch, and try the passenger side. and come back and tell me what happens :rolleyes:

Also you should fund that pink with yellow wire at both the drivers and passengers switch??