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Toms-SC
08-11-2010, 11:23 AM
Folks,

It would appear that a group of us are reaching the limits of our single 255 Walbro fuel pump. Sure, there are ways to stretch it out but I think it has been agreed on that a better solutions is needed. I reached out to MP about the idea of getting some assistance on getting a dual fuel pump hat produced for our cars. I'll let his words speak here:



Someone asked me if I would be willing to make a dual pump cage for the SC.

Is there interest in such a product and how many people would be willing to purchase one and at what price? Is there a particular design that is desired?

Thanks,
Charles

Just to get the thoughts flowing here are some examples from other applications:
03-04 Cobra (http://www.lethalperformance.com/03-04-svt-cobra-fuel-delivery-fore-precision-works-fuel-hats-c-16_261_2526/fore-precision-works-03-04-cobra-dual-pump-billet-top-hat-p-14889)
96-04 Lightning (http://www.speedconcepts.net/product_info.php?products_id=942)

Toms-SC
08-11-2010, 11:26 AM
I would be interested but would like to see a solution that is basically bolt-on. I understand our tank design presents certain restrictions :confused:. Other than that I'd like the idea of a billet that can accept AN lines; but perhaps that is wishful thinking? Dunno.

I guess I'd be willing to pay what it takes to get it done. Apparently I'm crazy for spending $350 on a coolant tank. :)

ricardoa1
08-11-2010, 12:02 PM
Id be down for one.

Does anyone know if the lightning pumps are both on all the time or is it controlled by the PCM? Id be curious if a set up like this can be retrofited.

S_Mazza
08-11-2010, 12:28 PM
Id be down for one.

Does anyone know if the lightning pumps are both on all the time or is it controlled by the PCM? Id be curious if a set up like this can be retrofited.

I think the stock Lightning setup has a single pump, return fuel system, with 2 speeds. The speed is controlled by a voltage dropping resistor that is bypassed by the PCM to use high speed.

So I don't know if this aftermarket setup just ties into that and runs both pumps at 1/2 speed for low speed ... or if it intercepts the bypass wiring and causes 1 pump to run for low speed and 2 to run for high speed.

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 12:54 PM
My requirements would be dual 255 lph high pressure Walbro pumps, mounted side by side with staggered/overlapping filter socks (second pump sits aprox 1/2" lower in well), dual 6AN pressure ports and single 6AN return port. Ports must be positioned similar to stock using low profile 90 degree fittings positioned as close to the fuel hat as possible for max clearance on top of the fuel tank.

I would plan to run both pumps continious, and would need at least one power and one ground wire (non wicking) of heavier gauge than stock or a pair of insulated terminal studs to attach the pump wires using ring terminals and nuts on either side of the pump hat.

I would also like to have a fuel level sender that was compatible with the stock fuel level gauge. I'n not opposed to modifying and remote mounting the stock fuel level sender onto one of the tank baffles if necessary. Stock wiring connector is not heavy duty enough to safely supply power to dual pumps, and would be deleted in my application, so another wire or terminal stud would be required for fuel level sender.

David

ricardoa1
08-11-2010, 01:00 PM
My requirements would be dual 255 lph high pressure Walbro pumps, mounted side by side with staggered/overlapping filter socks (second pump sits aprox 1/2" lower in well), dual 6AN pressure ports and single 6AN return port. Ports must be positioned similar to stock using low profile 90 degree fittings positioned as close to the fuel hat as possible for max clearance on top of the fuel tank.

I would plan to run both pumps continious, and would need at least one power and one ground wire (non wicking) of heavier gauge than stock or a pair of insulated terminal studs to attach the pump wires using ring terminals and nuts on either side of the pump hat.

I would also like to have a fuel level sender that was compatible with the stock fuel level gauge. I'n not opposed to modifying and remote mounting the stock fuel level sender onto one of the tank baffles if necessary. Stock wiring connector is not heavy duty enough to safely supply power to dual pumps, and would be deleted in my application, so another wire or terminal stud would be required for fuel level sender.

David

David, Not sure if someone has tried doing the dual 255s running all the time but those with a factory Fuel Pressure Regulator might have a hard time keeping the pressure down to stock levels and if running 80lbs might have some tuning issues with too much fuel being sprayed at idle or low loads. This is specualtive but reading other applications that seems to be the issue with running them both all the time.

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 01:11 PM
David, Not sure if someone has tried doing the dual 255s running all the time but those with a factory Fuel Pressure Regulator might have a hard time keeping the pressure down to stock levels and if running 80lbs might have some tuning issues with too much fuel being sprayed at idle or low loads. This is specualtive but reading other applications that seems to be the issue with running them both all the time.

Ricardo,

An additional power wire or terminal stud should probably be added for those people wishing to control the second pump seperately. I'm making the assumption that anyone who is considering dual pumps, would not be opposed to installing an adjustable pressure regulator if they don't already have one.

David

Ira R.
08-11-2010, 01:21 PM
Ricardo,

An additional power wire or terminal stud should probably be added for those people wishing to control the second pump seperately. I'm making the assumption that anyone who is considering dual pumps, would not be opposed to installing an adjustable pressure regulator if they don't already have one.

David

A good assumption I think, given that if you're running at a power level where fuel pressure is a concern then a regulator and maybe even an onboard pressure gauge are small mods to pay for at that point.

Unfortunately I don't see how this gets done in an affordable way. I don't see this as a mod for the general SC owner and I figure if there was an easy way to do it one of our experts would have already done so. But I am certainly willing to support the research into it.

Ira

XR7 Dave
08-11-2010, 01:22 PM
I have a strong feeling that those promoting this idea have no real idea of the logistical issues with trying to fit dual pumps into the SC tank. I realize that I'm not being much help with all the other things I am currently trying to do, but honestly if it were as simple as adapting something currently available I would have done it long ago. It just isn't really possible using conventional wisdom.

Good luck though.

ricardoa1
08-11-2010, 01:52 PM
And the thread just died. :)


Back to my BAP . LOL

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 02:57 PM
And the thread just died. :)


Back to my BAP . LOL

Ricardo,

He's just saying that it would need to be built from scratch instead of trying to mod the existing pump hat and sender assembly to accept a second pump.

David

XR7 Dave
08-11-2010, 03:04 PM
I'm saying that dual pumps, dual pickups, and a fuel level sender do not fit in the stock fuel well. Don't fit, not enough room.

Complicate that with the fact that the SC sending unit doesn't drop straight down into the tank but instead kind of "snakes" in at a 45 deg angle, and now you not only have difficulty fitting them in the well, (remember, they don't fit) but you can't get them TO the well due to the angle of attack and the fact that well is significantly offset from the opening....

Which is too small in the first place. Mounting all the hardware on the sending unit is one thing, but then maneuvering it into the well that is too small from an opening that is too small as well as offset at a 45 deg angle and you have a recipe for 10lbs of ~~~~ in a 5lb bag.

Mike posted the best solution so far - a metal Mark VIII tank that you can cut up and fab into your own fuel cell.

ganuolfthegrey
08-11-2010, 03:05 PM
instead up using two pumps. just go to a fuel cell and an lines and run a aeromotive a1000 inline pump. it would be overkill but would get the job done.

Ira R.
08-11-2010, 03:24 PM
instead up using two pumps. just go to a fuel cell and an lines and run a aeromotive a1000 inline pump. it would be overkill but would get the job done.

Generally speaking street cars don't run fuel cells. Not all of the cars that need something like this sit in the garage all the time.

Ira

Toms-SC
08-11-2010, 03:25 PM
..........

ricardoa1
08-11-2010, 03:46 PM
David, I got what Dalke was saying. Stinks since like IRA I want to make a powerful street car and not a race car. I know the go big or go home applies here but the same applies to our engines, why bother with 232 V6s?..



DD did you try putting the pumps in an offset way so one is higher then the other? Kinda like male parts offset and are not side by side. Then allow a hose to reach the bottom of the tank with a universal sock to pick up the fuel?
Im just reaching here, you probaly tried it too...:rolleyes:

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 03:47 PM
Welp the dream was good while it lasted.

Tom,

Your giving up too easy.

I've got a 93SC sitting in my garage right now with a dual pump setup in the factory tank, so I know that it can be done. The way it was done was a little on the crude side, but it's been working fine since 2005. I'd like something that's a little more finished and better fitting for my 91 SC, and still don't see any reason it can't be done.

If it was easy..we wouldn't still be talking about it.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/garage_attachment.php?id=247&attach_type=full

David

XR7 Dave
08-11-2010, 04:09 PM
I meant it when I said "good luck". Really, best of luck to anyone willing and able to make this happen. Don't wait on me or consider my input to be the last word.

I announced some time ago that I was working on a solution. If I come with something before someone else does, then great. If not, then keep working on something. Don't let me discourage anyone and their efforts.

Rico, if your car really is running in the 10's AFR then it's not safe, its ridiculous. I didn't tune it to run in the 10's as you know since you were watching it on the dyno. If faulty equipment (WB02, for example) or some other condition has resulted in your car running too rich then fix that problem and see if you still have fuel supply issues.

Frankly if you aren't running mid 11's then you don't have serious fuel issues. If you are running mid 11's then you have some fuel issues that can be addressed in a variety of ways. If you are running faster than that then you may need to take things into your own hands and come up with your own solution as others have.

I realize that a lot of people are more or less ready for a fuel system upgrade but I don't see where anyone is facing an issue where they can't drive and enjoy their cars because of a lack of a fuel system. Therefore, it's not an emergency and I think people should chill out and work towards a viable solution of one sort or another.

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 04:17 PM
Therefore, it's not an emergency and I think people should chill out and work towards a viable solution of one sort or another.


Exactly...and that's why I'm holding out for a Trick Daddy dual pump system.

David

ricardoa1
08-11-2010, 04:20 PM
I realize that a lot of people are more or less ready for a fuel system upgrade but I don't see where anyone is facing an issue where they can't drive and enjoy their cars because of a lack of a fuel system. Therefore, it's not an emergency and I think people should chill out and work towards a viable solution of one sort or another.

This is why I waited for so long on this but the thought of the shootout has crossed my mind and I dont think we were succesful with the nitrous tune and that is why I am eager to get the fuel delivery issue solved, via a band aid or the right way. The right way seems to require time and $ so the alternative is what I am working on.
I dont know why or how the tune is in the 10s for ARF, I dont remember if the shops WB02 was used or if you used my sensor and Twisteds LM-1. I dont know if the Alky mix is stronger now then it was when tuned. But at the rate Fuel pressure drops even on the street tune I dont think the nitrous will work at all even with the tune it has. Maybe the weather being hotter made the tune richer since when we tuned it was still chilly out.
IDK.
...............Nitrous is my reason for all this. And more RPMs..... :D

XR7 Dave
08-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Ricardo, just to add to that, it has never been my experience that an SC is a "tune it and forget it" car. The tech is old school and the parts are sometimes just as old. I don't really trust any "edge" tune any further than I can throw it because there are so many things affecting it. I think it should be matter of course that people plan on checking their tunes and retuning on a semi regular basis. It could be that the WB at Twisted was goofed but I'd hate to lean the motor out without knowing for sure.

S_Mazza
08-11-2010, 04:43 PM
I would also like to have a fuel level sender that was compatible with the stock fuel level gauge. I'n not opposed to modifying and remote mounting the stock fuel level sender onto one of the tank baffles if necessary. Stock wiring connector is not heavy duty enough to safely supply power to dual pumps, and would be deleted in my application, so another wire or terminal stud would be required for fuel level sender.

David

Why not leave the sender where it is and try to mount the second pump on the baffle? And give it a long enough set of hose and wiring that you can drop it in first, then drop the sender and second pump in afterward? Or mount both pumps on the baffle and leave just the sender on the hanger.

David Neibert
08-11-2010, 05:39 PM
Why not leave the sender where it is and try to mount the second pump on the baffle? And give it a long enough set of hose and wiring that you can drop it in first, then drop the sender and second pump in afterward? Or mount both pumps on the baffle and leave just the sender on the hanger.

If your asking me, I don't know those answers. This is where it takes someone to sit there and play around with a tank and various pump and sender configurations, to see what might work and what won't.

David

Mike8675309
08-11-2010, 06:17 PM
I know people are impatient, but I have to say that I suggest that they take some time to wait, and if possible look into this themselves. Pull your tank, pull the pump, and stare at that hole for a while and you'll see the challenges that DD has likely run into. That doesn't mean that they can not be worked around, but it does mean there are challenges, some perhaps significant. Our tanks are significantly different than the mustang tanks.

I hate to have Charles Warner start taking his time on top of the time DD has already spent only to find that to do anything would require the kind of work that maybe only 10..heck maybe not even 5 people will be willing to pay for.

Ira R.
08-11-2010, 09:30 PM
Ricardo, just to add to that, it has never been my experience that an SC is a "tune it and forget it" car. The tech is old school and the parts are sometimes just as old. I don't really trust any "edge" tune any further than I can throw it because there are so many things affecting it. I think it should be matter of course that people plan on checking their tunes and retuning on a semi regular basis. It could be that the WB at Twisted was goofed but I'd hate to lean the motor out without knowing for sure.

The WB at Twisted is fine. It's actually been triple checked in the last few weeks and it's damn near right on the money. Oh and yes Dave after all that 11.5 was correct.

As far as "tune it and forget" these cars are anything but. We all know that. Ricardo your car has long since passed the point where you should have a QH in it to keep an eye on things. Heck you could fit all I know about tuning in a shot glass and still have room for the liquor but I wouldn't be without it. I don't even wait for something to feel wrong before I'm all over the laptop checking to see that the numbers are where they should be.

The cost of the software and the LC-1 sure is cheaper than replacing engine parts you know. You have too much time money and effort invested in that thing to not be keeping an eye on things.

Ira

Magnum Powers
08-11-2010, 11:35 PM
I know people are impatient, but I have to say that I suggest that they take some time to wait, and if possible look into this themselves. Pull your tank, pull the pump, and stare at that hole for a while and you'll see the challenges that DD has likely run into. That doesn't mean that they can not be worked around, but it does mean there are challenges, some perhaps significant. Our tanks are significantly different than the mustang tanks.

I hate to have Charles Warner start taking his time on top of the time DD has already spent only to find that to do anything would require the kind of work that maybe only 10..heck maybe not even 5 people will be willing to pay for.

This thing is looking technically difficult and very time consuming to come up with a respectable solution. I have fabrication resources to draw on and could design a CAD model for production parts to be made from. But spending a lot of time to invent a solution is just not in the cards, I must make a living like the rest of you you know. If you guys could come up with a workable solution and could build a prototype then perhaps I could pitch in for the sake of the old Super Coupe Club and have a limited production run made if there is more then 10 people interested.

XxSlowpokexX
08-12-2010, 01:37 PM
My car is more than likely on the lower hp end spectrum of the AR powered cars however I like the idea of having enough volume as to not worry about my fuel pump as being a weak link.

My question is this. Lets say we run dual 255lph pumps. At what point are the fuel lines or the fuel rail the restriction?

Looking forward to someone comming out with one of these!

mywhite89
10-05-2010, 11:45 AM
My question is this. Lets say we run dual 255lph pumps. At what point are the fuel lines or the fuel rail the restriction?

Ryan zimmerly found this out recently. He upgraded to larger fuel lines on his because he was running out of fuel. I think he made 441rwhp. He told me that upgrading the power wire to the factory fuel pump was important for him also because the factory wire was not carrying enough current to supply proper voltage to his fuel pump as well.(correct if I'm wrong Ryan)

I want to upgrade my fuel system also. If you want to upgrade pumps, you need to plan on upgrading the lines also in my opinion otherwise don't waste your time and money? I just want to prepare my car for future goals.

It sounds like a boost-a-pump will work also but is this good for long term? The next question, was it the fuel lines that were unable to supply on Ryans car, the insufficient wire, or the pump not supplying enough by itself without a voltage boost?

Chris

ricardoa1
10-05-2010, 11:56 AM
Ryan zimmerly found this out recently. He upgraded to larger fuel lines on his because he was running out of fuel. I think he made 441rwhp. He told me that upgrading the power wire to the factory fuel pump was important for him also because the factory wire was not carrying enough current to supply proper voltage to his fuel pump as well.(correct if I'm wrong Ryan)

I want to upgrade my fuel system also. If you want to upgrade pumps, you need to plan on upgrading the lines also in my opinion otherwise don't waste your time and money? I just want to prepare my car for future goals.

Line upgrade alone can get you where you need to be. For me a second pump was needed to get the car to no drop pressure. But sideeffect = a very loud whinning noise from the external fuel pump. No sure if this is normal or not. It did solve the pressure problems but i can def do without the noise. My summit pump was quiet when I first installed it. But after some miles on it is not as quiet, and pretty annoying at this point. I am not sure if this is the was its meant to work or if the pump is just too powerful and the 255LPH in tank pump is simply starving it.

rzimmerl
10-05-2010, 12:10 PM
Chris, the feed line upgrade to -8 and the 10ga. wire direct off of the alt. lug to the boost a pump (still and 0%) was enough to provide my fuel needs, actually too much as the top end had to be leaned out in the tune. I have not been able to verify the pressure drop as I don't have a in car pressure gauge yet.

I didn't have time to do them one at a time to find the root cause, but I am certain I have enough fuel now. I did make 441rwhp thru an AOD, 16.5psi, and the knock sensor pulling timing back to 18 deg cause I forgot to turn it off and the top end running AFR's in the high 10's - low 11's.:cool:

mywhite89
10-05-2010, 03:37 PM
Chris, the feed line upgrade to -8 and the 10ga. wire direct off of the alt. lug to the boost a pump (still and 0%) was enough to provide my fuel needs, actually too much as the top end had to be leaned out in the tune. I have not been able to verify the pressure drop as I don't have a in car pressure gauge yet.

I didn't have time to do them one at a time to find the root cause, but I am certain I have enough fuel now. I did make 441rwhp thru an AOD, 16.5psi, and the knock sensor pulling timing back to 18 deg cause I forgot to turn it off and the top end running AFR's in the high 10's - low 11's.:cool:

you lucky dog, I'm jealous. 0%??? You mean that you didn't need to turn up the boost a pump voltage to achieve what you needed for fuel? You running 60lb injectors still?

rzimmerl
10-05-2010, 04:30 PM
Yes I haven't needed to turn up the boost a pump yet, 60lb. injectors at about 92% duty cycle so they are getting close, and 44 psi base fuel pressure.