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scxr7
08-24-2010, 10:07 PM
Hey guys, I was out at a local car meet..if you could call it a meet. just a few guys hangin out in front of a bbq restaurant. anyways, I was talking about my cougar and what's done to it and my issues. usual car talk bs. then he says that he's currently tuning a tbird supercoupe with a coy miller stage 3 motor in it with an mpx and all the supporting hardware. He says the guy he's tuning for spent 15k on the motor and makes 500hp. I was surprised to hear this news because I've been on here for a couple years and I've been youtubing and streetfiring videos of supercoupes and never heard of this guy.

anyone on here ever heard of this guy? he's got a black sc with silver striping/trim, lives in south florida on the east coast. I'm more surprised that the guy knew the supercoupe terminology, such as magnum powers, coy miller, m5r2 transmission, cobra irs swap, yadda yadda. its not every day you meet a total stranger that is into these cars as much as you.

IIRC the SC owners first name is mike.

Blown347
08-24-2010, 10:20 PM
There are many sweet high HP cars out there who don't post on this site.

Heck theres a guy named George he has a pretty sweet ride called SWT SWF something like that I think ! He don't even post here anymore and he owns the freaking website.



Watch out there always someone faster !

Mercutio
08-24-2010, 10:39 PM
500 with an MPx seems optimistic even if we're talking about crank hp. At the wheels? Let's just say I'm skeptical.

SuperChicken89
08-24-2010, 11:03 PM
anyone on here ever heard of this guy? he's got a black sc with silver striping/trim, lives in south florida on the east coast. I'm more surprised that the guy knew the supercoupe terminology, such as magnum powers, coy miller, m5r2 transmission, cobra irs swap, yadda yadda. its not every day you meet a total stranger that is into these cars as much as you.

IIRC the SC owners first name is mike.

I recall meeting the owner of that 90 Anniversary SC. I believe he said he lived in Jupiter, FL or somewhere in that general area. A group of us met him at the Silver Springs All Ford & Mustang show back in January of 2008. From what I remember, his name was Mark and he was fully aware of the SCCoA but didn't hang on the site at all. His SC was really nice and it was obvious there was a lot of money and time spent on it. He did say he had a Coy Miller engine and was working on or had installed an aftermarket ignition system.

That is all I can remember. I don't recall taking any pictures of his car because it started to rain after we were at the show for just a few hours.

Bryan

scxr7
08-24-2010, 11:59 PM
yep I was in hobe sound just north of jupiter tonight where I met the guy. I dont doubt the 500hp claim, I think its possible with a built motor,mpx, and some sort of meth/alcy/n20 injection. the guy has a stock ecu/harness with a quarterhorse piggy back tuning hardware. Quarterhorse is actually what brought up the convo of his car in the 1st place. I'm gonna have to see if I can find this guy locally and get a few pics and maybe some friendly 1/4mi runs. ;) word around town is that he'll be at bono's in stuart next tuesday for the meet.

Mike8675309
08-25-2010, 08:31 AM
Remember that some of these folks that claim those numbers are basing them on engine dynos, not chassis dynos. Most of the cars over 400rwhp would likely be over 500crank horsepower.

We're used to rwhp numbers as most run their cars on chassis dynos. But a lot of people, when they talk HP, are talking crank hp.

90blkbrd
08-25-2010, 10:48 AM
We're used to rwhp numbers as most run their cars on chassis dynos. But a lot of people, when they talk HP, are talking crank hp.

Most guys that own old muscle cars talk theoretical crank hp. If hot rod magazine said this cam and heads equals 400 chp, then they have 400 chp. I've met very few people that have actually had their motor or car hooked to a dyno.

Kurt K
08-25-2010, 11:20 AM
Most guys that own old muscle cars talk theoretical crank hp. If hot rod magazine said this cam and heads equals 400 chp, then they have 400 chp. I've met very few people that have actually had their motor or car hooked to a dyno.
Actually, if the engine in question is actually a Coy Miller engine, then it has been engine dyno'd.

ricardoa1
08-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Most hot-rodders just get a crate engine or build something and their engine shop dynoes it. They put it in the car and forget about it. Those claim Crank HP.

Roadhawg
08-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Knowing you rwhp and rwtq is just a side benifit, of getting your car Dyno tuned.
The real key is, that your car is setup to effectively transfer that power to the ground.

DrFishbone
08-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Was his last name "Demmitt"?

:confused::p

1MTNCAT
08-25-2010, 12:44 PM
Was his last name "Demmitt"?

:confused::p


:D Thats hillarious!!!!

Mike8675309
08-25-2010, 01:23 PM
Chassis dynos are good for:
1. Validating modifications you intended to make more power with. (or proving you were wrong)
2. Giving you your cars power curve so that if you are manually shifting (either due to a manual transmission or a manual valve body) you can get a sense of where you should be shifting. As well as getting a good idea of when you change gears or tire sizes what impact that will have on your shift points.

#2 can be done with an engine dyno initially, but isn't as reliable once you start modifying. #1 again can be done with an engine dyno, but you have to pull the engine each time.

I just mentioned it because a few people here have 500hp SC's as well as lots of folks that don't ever come to this website.

Mercutio
08-25-2010, 05:52 PM
Was his last name "Demmitt"?

:confused::p

I lol'd at that one.

Hock
08-25-2010, 05:56 PM
Was his last name "Demmitt"?

:confused::p

Not a chance. If it WAS him, it would have been 600hp on an top secret "experimental" M90 with no nitrous, factory weight, and runs 8's! :D:p

David Neibert
08-25-2010, 06:10 PM
500 at the crank is very possible with those parts.

David

ThunderDave
08-25-2010, 06:45 PM
Not a chance. If it WAS him, it would have been 600hp on an top secret "experimental" M90 with no nitrous, factory weight, and runs 8's! :D:p

..and Jim would have been here telling us all about it himself. :D

TinManSC92
08-25-2010, 08:38 PM
I'm guessing he doesn't get on the board all that often.

decipha
08-25-2010, 09:27 PM
going back to the dyno chat

what folks fail to understand is that a dyno is nothing more than a big ~~~ torque wrench, its a TOOL, and it should only be used as a tool, to aid in doing a job and that's it

I get aggravated all day long by fools that live and die by dyno numbers, it's just a number to give you an idea, does not mean this car is faster than that car

also for those that think dyno tuning is the answer to all, that's just bogus, there's tons of 'dyno tuners' all around the globe that don't even know how to use a dyno accordingly, not to mention all the hack jobs that I see 24/7 that come my way from other 'dyno tuners'

You'd be amazed at how many people come to me after getting their car 'tuned' to get it 'fine tuned'

I wouldn't doubt he could bust 500rwhp with the right mods using an mpx, im not saying its easy or cheap but its attainable

fturner
08-25-2010, 09:45 PM
going back to the dyno chat

what folks fail to understand is that a dyno is nothing more than a big ~~~ torque wrench, its a TOOL, and it should only be used as a tool, to aid in doing a job and that's it

I get aggravated all day long by fools that live and die by dyno numbers, it's just a number to give you an idea, does not mean this car is faster than that car

also for those that think dyno tuning is the answer to all, that's just bogus, there's tons of 'dyno tuners' all around the globe that don't even know how to use a dyno accordingly, not to mention all the hack jobs that I see 24/7 that come my way from other 'dyno tuners'

You'd be amazed at how many people come to me after getting their car 'tuned' to get it 'fine tuned'

I wouldn't doubt he could bust 500rwhp with the right mods using an mpx, im not saying its easy or cheap but its attainable

The current MPX will not move enough air to get 500rwhp no matter how good you make the motor, and in fact I highly doubt you will ever see an m90 based blower do that... it is physically impossible because once the blower is OD'd over its VE, thats it, temperatures go through the roof and not alot more air gets moved.

I recently proved that the blower totally on its own dictates how much air moves into our motors which dictates how much HP you are going to make, which has been an argument for some time. Everything else you do supports the blower to move more air efficiently, and a blower design will only move so much air before its wall is hit.

A 1.7L AR hasn't hit the 500rwhp mark yet, and it moves alot more air than an MPX does.

As for dyno tuning. Most people can't afford to get a car fine tuned on a dyno because of the length of time it takes to do the job right, and time is money. So its throw the car on, quickly adjust things so it "runs" then dials in the AFR. Some cars take 5 minutes, another can take an hour.

If I had my way, I'd fine tune a car on the dyno as its alot more controlled environment, then run the car on the street to make sure everything is good with that... but we're talking in excess of $1000 to tune that way because of the time involved to get the car to run like it came out of the factory with a very aggresive cam etc.

Fraser

TinManSC92
08-25-2010, 09:46 PM
GOOD POST! That puts things back in perspective for me. The REAL world you mean.

KMT
08-25-2010, 11:53 PM
I can recall when all we had was the street, and it was called the kamikaze dyno...

XR7 Dave
08-25-2010, 11:54 PM
I wouldn't doubt he could bust 500rwhp with the right mods using an mpx, im not saying its easy or cheap but its attainable

I really don't think it's attainable. The best M90 based blower might hit 75% VE, though at the boost and rpm levels necessary to achieve 500rwhp I think the VE would fall off to more like 70% on a very optimistic day.

If we use 70% blower VE as a starting point, it remains a matter of mathematics to find the possible theoretic HP limits. 500rwhp requires that you cover the parasitic losses of the blower and the driveline losses of the vehicle. The vehicle runs about 15% minimum (5spd) so that means we are at 575 crank HP. Now we have to estimate blower losses. This is a little tough to do, but lets start at about 100hp. If this is accurate, then we will have to generate 675hp inside the motor to make that amount of power. 675hp requires approximately 1000cfm. To get an M90 to generate 1000 cfm requires roughly 28,000rpm @ 70% VE. The next question is what rpm is the motor going to make that power at? This is important because the rpm is going to reflect boost level. If we say 6500rpm (pushing it for an SC engine!), this means we'd have to run a non-belt slipping 50% OD. :eek:

In order to make 500rwhp, the M90 would have to be able to maintain 70% VE at 28,000rpm (and no belt slip @ 50% OD), all while the motor makes peak power at 6500rpm, and without consuming more than 100hp but making around 26psi boost.

Not likely to happen in this reality, especially when you consider that it is more likely that the blower is consuming 180hp than 100hp at roughly 26 or so psi boost.

With a more conventional 25% OD, the amount of air the M90 is likely to process will support about 525hp inside the motor, generate 425hp at the crank, and record 360hp at the wheels. This is what I've seen happen over and over, and this is what I think is reasonable to expect, regardless of whatever might be the popular thing to believe.

David Neibert
08-26-2010, 11:37 AM
I've made 374 and Chris Wise made 390 rwhp with an M90 based blower and non locking AOD. If using 25% loss for an AOD without direct drive, the calculated crank HP would be as follows.

374/.75=498.66

390/.75=520.00


David

XR7 Dave
08-26-2010, 12:24 PM
I've made 374 and Chris Wise made 390 rwhp with an M90 based blower and non locking AOD. If using 25% loss for an AOD without direct drive, the calculated crank HP would be as follows.

374/.75=498.66

390/.75=520.00


David
I was going to answer this in a way so as to explain what you are seeing, but then we get into that whole dyno comparison argument thing and I'm simply not interested in going there.

A 500rwhp SC weighing in at 4000lbs should run 11 flat at 123mph. When I see anyone do that with an M90 (and no nitrous) then I'll be listening. A 400rwhp SC should run 11.80's @ 115. This we have seen on a few M90 SC's over the course of history. 11.0's - not so much. :cool:

kenewagner
08-26-2010, 12:42 PM
A 400rwhp SC should run 11.80's @ 115.

Its nice to know my 400rwhp should run 11.8s:D

Ken

David Neibert
08-26-2010, 05:50 PM
I was going to answer this in a way so as to explain what you are seeing, but then we get into that whole dyno comparison argument thing and I'm simply not interested in going there.

A 500rwhp SC weighing in at 4000lbs should run 11 flat at 123mph. When I see anyone do that with an M90 (and no nitrous) then I'll be listening. A 400rwhp SC should run 11.80's @ 115. This we have seen on a few M90 SC's over the course of history. 11.0's - not so much. :cool:

I agree with those numbers.

David

decipha
08-26-2010, 08:12 PM
man, i always thought the mpx had more spunk than that, hmm, guess the mpx is the next thing that'll i'll be replacing ;)

It's turbo time :rolleyes:

XR7 Dave
08-26-2010, 08:21 PM
man, i always thought the mpx had more spunk than that, hmm, guess the mpx is the next thing that'll i'll be replacing ;)



You just have to think about physics. When you displace x amount of air per revolution then you can only support x amount of HP per rpm. The rpm required to move enough air to make more than about 500crank HP as David said, just isn't happening. Kevin has run a 4:1 drive ratio, but you won't see what he's doing being duplicated on a street driven SC. Ultimately the exact amount of HP he makes will always be a bit of a fuzzy number due to the fact that he runs high compression, race fuel and an OD ratio that simply can't be duplicated on the street (he gets a pass or two per belt) but I think he's in the 425-450rwhp range.

Kevin Leitem
08-26-2010, 09:43 PM
You just have to think about physics. When you displace x amount of air per revolution then you can only support x amount of HP per rpm. The rpm required to move enough air to make more than about 500crank HP as David said, just isn't happening. Kevin has run a 4:1 drive ratio, but you won't see what he's doing being duplicated on a street driven SC. Ultimately the exact amount of HP he makes will always be a bit of a fuzzy number due to the fact that he runs high compression, race fuel and an OD ratio that simply can't be duplicated on the street (he gets a pass or two per belt) but I think he's in the 425-450rwhp range.

with my new belt setup i am up to about a dozen:D

Mercutio
08-26-2010, 10:09 PM
I've made 374 and Chris Wise made 390 rwhp with an M90 based blower and non locking AOD. If using 25% loss for an AOD without direct drive, the calculated crank HP would be as follows.

374/.75=498.66

390/.75=520.00


David

At one point my car made 395 to the rear wheels with the MPx, but as we learned, keeping it alive at that power point, at least with the rest of my combination, was not realistic. David can explain it much better than I, but the amount of timing it took to get to that point was a bit too much. I don't expect my current combination to get near 400 rwhp with the MPx, and it's a much better motor than the old one.

scxr7
08-27-2010, 10:45 PM
didn't know the mpx maxed out so soon in the HP range. Okay, so what about MPX and nitrous? those two power adders should be able to get you to 500whp. hell, with nitrous you can bump it up to 700whp. as long as the motor can hold it and you've got enough fuel. but either way. this thread has gotten a little side tracked. I'll let you guys know if the '500hp sc' shows up to the car meet this tuesday.

Micahdogg
08-30-2010, 11:29 AM
There was a guy from Florida named Mike Weimar who was heavily into the SC scene in the mid/late 90's. He was one of the first dudes I knew of to try and separate the M90 rotors from the pack because he was obsessed with coating the rotors. This was before anyone outside of STL really knew about Wade...not that he was even doing this back then.

Edit - Found a pic of him in the events section:
http://sccoa.com/events/images/southmarch200409.jpg

Micah

David Neibert
08-30-2010, 11:49 AM
didn't know the mpx maxed out so soon in the HP range. Okay, so what about MPX and nitrous? those two power adders should be able to get you to 500whp. hell, with nitrous you can bump it up to 700whp. as long as the motor can hold it and you've got enough fuel. but either way. this thread has gotten a little side tracked. I'll let you guys know if the '500hp sc' shows up to the car meet this tuesday.

Yes 500 rwhp is possible with MPX and nitrous, but I don't think 700 rwhp is happening without a turbo.

David

nickleman60
08-30-2010, 01:55 PM
QUOTE=David Neibert;901922]Yes 500 rwhp is possible with MPX.
David[/QUOTE]

With how big of a shot, 150-175?:eek::eek::eek::eek:

HMMMMMMMM...........maybe I ought to try it........:rolleyes:

Not................:D

David Neibert
08-30-2010, 02:25 PM
QUOTE=David Neibert;901922]Yes 500 rwhp is possible with MPX.
David

With how big of a shot, 150-175?:eek::eek::eek::eek:

HMMMMMMMM...........maybe I ought to try it........:rolleyes:

Not................:D

If starting with 350-375 rwhp, I think a 125-150 shot would do it. So long as I don't have to race in the same lane right afterward, I'd love to see you try a 175 shot :D

David

nickleman60
08-30-2010, 04:08 PM
If starting with 350-375 rwhp, I think a 125-150 shot would do it. So long as I don't have to race in the same lane right afterward, I'd love to see you try a 175 shot :DDavid

I think I'll stick with what I'm running David, I'd hate to spill my engine guts in front of you and ruin your run..........:rolleyes:

I'm thinking right now I'm probably making 415-25 rwhp with the 75 shot on the motor tune and race gas.

scxr7
08-30-2010, 05:49 PM
There was a guy from Florida named Mike Weimar who was heavily into the SC scene in the mid/late 90's. He was one of the first dudes I knew of to try and separate the M90 rotors from the pack because he was obsessed with coating the rotors. This was before anyone outside of STL really knew about Wade...not that he was even doing this back then.

Micah

yep thats the guy!

neverfastenough
08-30-2010, 06:42 PM
I could use a 175shot, you know, just to spool the turbo;)

David Neibert
08-31-2010, 12:53 PM
I could use a 175shot, you know, just to spool the turbo;)

Do it for the Shootout dyno competition, and you'll be sure to win most HP & TQ from a v6. I'm pretty sure it's going to take more than 500 rwhp for a win this year.

David

Micahdogg
08-31-2010, 01:07 PM
yep thats the guy!

He's a pretty cool dude....pretty smart too. You should tell him to hop back on SCCoA if you see him again.

neverfastenough
08-31-2010, 01:25 PM
Do it for the Shootout dyno competition, and you'll be sure to win most HP & TQ from a v6. I'm pretty sure it's going to take more than 500 rwhp for a win this year.

David

Yea, I'd need it, dont think i can get over the 500rwhp mark w/o some help. lot of turbo split port stangs over that number tho.

kenewagner
08-31-2010, 01:41 PM
Do it for the Shootout dyno competition, and you'll be sure to win most HP & TQ from a v6. I'm pretty sure it's going to take more than 500 rwhp for a win this year.

David

Makes it a losing proposition to even dyno a car unless your in the top 1%. 400 HP wont even come close to be in the top numbers anymore

Ken

nickleman60
08-31-2010, 01:52 PM
Makes it a losing proposition to even dyno a car unless your in the top 1%. 400 HP wont even come close to be in the top numbers anymore

Ken

Ken, I think I have a chance for the highest hp M90. Your catagory will be a tough one because of the AR's, Whipples and Turbos being grouped together.

rzimmerl
08-31-2010, 02:58 PM
Ken, I think I have a chance for the highest hp M90. Your catagory will be a tough one because of the AR's, Whipples and Turbos being grouped together.

If there still is the "most HP internally stock engine", I should be a good shot for that since I'm still running a stock rotating assy., no fancy forged parts like all the other 400+hp cars.......yet:rolleyes:

kenewagner
08-31-2010, 04:00 PM
Ken, I think I have a chance for the highest hp M90. Your catagory will be a tough one because of the AR's, Whipples and Turbos being grouped together.

One of the biggest hurdle for me is the AOD with a nonlocking TQ. To make good numbers on a dyno one needs a manual. I should do better at the track with the nonlocking TQ but in a dyno competition I am toast. Not planning on the dyno at this time.

Ken

CMac89
08-31-2010, 05:02 PM
If there still is the "most HP internally stock engine", I should be a good shot for that since I'm still running a stock rotating assy., no fancy forged parts like all the other 400+hp cars.......yet:rolleyes:
You cant have ported heads or a cam.

90blkbrd
09-01-2010, 10:14 AM
Ken, I think I have a chance for the highest hp M90.

Now that I've converted to the dark side you do. :)


If there still is the "most HP internally stock engine", I should be a good shot for that since I'm still running a stock rotating assy.

Umm IMO "most HP internally stock engine" means stock heads and cam along with stock rotating assembly.

rzimmerl
09-01-2010, 10:34 AM
Now that I've converted to the dark side you do. :)



Umm IMO "most HP internally stock engine" means stock heads and cam along with stock rotating assembly.

OK I get it, I already won that dyno comp in 2008 when it was all stock.

neverfastenough
09-01-2010, 10:35 AM
Want a cookie?

kenewagner
09-01-2010, 11:28 AM
Give a SC guy a cookie and he''ll want a glass of milk.

Ken

Ira R.
09-01-2010, 01:27 PM
Give a SC guy a cookie and he''ll want a glass of milk.

Ken

.......and then he'll blow into the glass through a straw until he figures out how to use that air to make the milk taste better :eek: :D

Ira

DrFishbone
09-01-2010, 03:21 PM
.......and then he'll blow into the glass through a straw until he figures out how to use that air to make the milk taste better :eek: :D

Ira

Until the milk is spilled,
But then it's time to rebuild! :D

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Now that I've converted to the dark side you do. :).

So you had more than 400 rwhp with your MPx?

90blkbrd
09-01-2010, 04:26 PM
So you had more than 400 rwhp with your MPx?

No, 350 rwhp. I believe the M90 category doesn't allow N2O. I could be wrong though.

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 04:35 PM
No, 350 rwhp. I believe the M90 category doesn't allow N2O. I could be wrong though.

All catagories allow nitrous, meth or whatever else there is out there.

rzimmerl
09-01-2010, 04:43 PM
All catagories allow nitrous, meth or whatever else there is out there.

Nitrous is a power adder, meth is not just to keep that straight, and I believe anything is possible as long as it meets the basic requirements of the class.

David Neibert
09-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Nitrous is allowed in the dyno competition, but nobody has every used it to win a particular category. Not that I'm aware of anyhow.

David

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 04:50 PM
Nitrous is a power adder, meth is not just to keep that straight, and I believe anything is possible as long as it meets the basic requirements of the class.

Do you make more power with the meth? If so then it's considered a power adder.

95_XR7
09-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Do you make more power with the meth? If so then it's considered a power adder.

Technically though, you don't make more power just by adding the Meth right?
It's just there to allow you to run more boost/timing. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

-Corey

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 05:47 PM
Technically though, you don't make more power just by adding the Meth right?
It's just there to allow you to run more boost/timing. -Corey

Didn't you answer your own question?

rzimmerl
09-01-2010, 05:49 PM
Technically though, you don't make more power just by adding the Meth right?
It's just there to allow you to run more boost/timing. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

-Corey

Yes you are right, I can't just simply up a jet size and add 100HP to the engine.

95_XR7
09-01-2010, 06:06 PM
Didn't you answer your own question?

I was being a smartass with that question. (If it's offensive, my apologies. That's one thing I've gotten good at being over here.) :cool:
But yeah...good point. I guess I did. :p


-corey

BLOWN38
09-01-2010, 06:10 PM
Then race gas is a power adder?:rolleyes:

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 06:15 PM
I was being a smartass with that question. (If it's offensive, my apologies. That's one thing I've gotten good at being over here.) :cool:
But yeah...good point. I guess I did. :p


-corey

Corey, we all have to be smart azzes on here every once in a while. It keeps the masses in check.......:rolleyes:

nickleman60
09-01-2010, 06:16 PM
Then race gas is a power adder?:rolleyes:

Then I have 3 power adders...............:eek:

90blkbrd
09-02-2010, 08:12 AM
Then I have 3 power adders...............:eek:

Strike 3! Your out.

Ira R.
09-02-2010, 08:58 AM
Nitrous is allowed in the dyno competition, but nobody has every used it to win a particular category. Not that I'm aware of anyhow.

David

Ricardo. Juiced the engine to win highest torque 2 years ago I think it was.

Ira

Ira R.
09-02-2010, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95_XR7
Technically though, you don't make more power just by adding the Meth right?
It's just there to allow you to run more boost/timing. -Corey [/quote]



Didn't you answer your own question?

Nonsense. You can turn up the timing and the boost without the meth. All the meth does is provide a mechanical way to minimize the risk of doing so. But it doesn't guarantee you more power.

Nitrous is nothing more than a chemical enhancment used specifically to make more power.

Ira

1MTNCAT
09-02-2010, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95_XR7
Technically though, you don't make more power just by adding the Meth right?
It's just there to allow you to run more boost/timing. -Corey




Nonsense. You can turn up the timing and the boost without the meth. All the meth does is provide a mechanical way to minimize the risk of doing so. But it doesn't guarantee you more power.

Nitrous is nothing more than a chemical enhancment used specifically to make more power.

Ira[/QUOTE]

BS on that one!

Yeah, nitrous I suppose is a chemical. It is the oxygen that makes it work and cool the intake charge temps that allows the fuel present to burn more efficiently by allowing the original engine to make more power. With the oxygen rich mixture you have to pull timing mechanically or otherwise due to the abundance of oxygen which allows it to burn more efficiently.

On the otherhand, Yes, Methanol is a chemical too. It allows you to run more compression and timing due to the (Alcohol) chemical suppressing the burn rate/timing correct? That also equals more efficiency and horsepower.

Please clarify for me.

Maybe you don't consider it a power adder but I can testify to the fact that two exact same cars, one with and one without methanol, and tuned accordingly, the methanol car makes more power. So go figure?? At a minimum its a power enhancer. I personally and some of you have too just a week or so ago saw two similar SVO 4.6L V8 cars and dyno numbers. The numbers were quite different. If it weren't a power enhancer/ or power adder why would anyone pay the money to buy the system and run it???

Just my thoughts! :)

scxr7
09-02-2010, 09:44 PM
~~~ are ya'll talkin about. lol. anyways, that guy didn't show up this week. which was a good thing because my cougar wasn't ready anyways! I picked a great day to get my cougar dyno tuned, sunday, my 4th anniversary lol. as long as I'm able to source a stock 94/95 FPR by then.. my aftermarket kirban regulator failed and is spraying fuel everywhere. thats my only mechanical issue. everything else is tune related.

other than my personal BS, whens the next time a SC shootout is going to be in the southern part of the country? like, anything from the bible belt south, and east of arkansas? even though my cougar is a 96 will is still classify since its got a s/c motor?

XR7 Dave
09-02-2010, 11:00 PM
Nonsense. You can turn up the timing and the boost without the meth. All the meth does is provide a mechanical way to minimize the risk of doing so. But it doesn't guarantee you more power.

Nitrous is nothing more than a chemical enhancment used specifically to make more power.

Ira

BS on that one!

Yeah, nitrous I suppose is a chemical. It is the oxygen that makes it work and cool the intake charge temps that allows the fuel present to burn more efficiently by allowing the original engine to make more power. With the oxygen rich mixture you have to pull timing mechanically or otherwise due to the abundance of oxygen which allows it to burn more efficiently.

On the otherhand, Yes, Methanol is a chemical too. It allows you to run more compression and timing due to the (Alcohol) chemical suppressing the burn rate/timing correct? That also equals more efficiency and horsepower.

Please clarify for me.

Maybe you don't consider it a power adder but I can testify to the fact that two exact same cars, one with and one without methanol, and tuned accordingly, the methanol car makes more power. So go figure?? At a minimum its a power enhancer. I personally and some of you have too just a week or so ago saw two similar SVO 4.6L V8 cars and dyno numbers. The numbers were quite different. If it weren't a power enhancer/ or power adder why would anyone pay the money to buy the system and run it???

Just my thoughts! :)

Everything you install to make your car faster is a power adder in a technical sense, but we don't refer to intercoolers or headers as power adders. The term "power adder" has been used pretty much universally to describe nitrous injection and boost. I believe most people would agree with this.

Meth injection is 3 things: 1) chemical intercooler because it lowers ACT's, 2) a fuel, and 3) an octane enhancer. All of those things are standard power adding features of normal bolt on products.

Nitrous adds power through 2 methods, neither of which are available via normal bolt on components, 1) by increasing the amount of oxygen in the cylinder to levels higher than would be possible through natural aspiration, in a sense - "chemical supercharging", and 2) by increasing the burn rate of the fuel charge thereby creating a more complete burn in a shorter time. Because of this, nitrous has more potential as a power adder than simple forced induction - in a sense. Each form or power adder has it's limits, and both are legit in their own ways.

Race fuel and alcohol are not "power adders."

CMac89
09-02-2010, 11:24 PM
Yeah, quit being silly, guys.

If you can buy it in a three stage 1000HP kit, then it's a power adder. Methanol's a FUEL. Those "fuels" are technical terms for things that you can put in your fuel tank.

If it makes a "piss in the ocean to watch the level rise" difference, then it isn't what's widely viewed under the phrase "power adder.

nickleman60
09-03-2010, 05:59 AM
Botton line is that it's "run what you brung" and let your timeslip or dyno # do the talking.......;)

1MTNCAT
09-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Botton line is that it's "run what you brung" and let your timeslip or dyno # do the talking.......;)

Yeah thats true. Thats what mine has always done.

XR7Dave. Very good summation.

I would however like to see similar supercoupe runs with and without the meth on similiar setups and see the difference. Understand I;m not disputing the fuel theory, but the power theory.

So If I set up a 15.1 compression NA V8 car on alchohol, and run nitrous as well, I have the same set up as a non alcohol NA V8 and just the juice will show the same results?

Again, its not a power adder and I know that but it does make it possible to enhance the power by injecting alcohol period.

;)

rzimmerl
09-03-2010, 01:01 PM
I would however like to see similar supercoupe runs with and without the meth on similiar setups and see the difference. Understand I;m not disputing the fuel theory, but the power theory.



I could make that possible as I have tunes for with and without.

Quik95SC
09-03-2010, 01:38 PM
I could make that possible as I have tunes for with and without.

I have a 2 position chip and without running the Snow System I made 302RWHP and with the other tune for the alcohol injection netted 329 RWHP on the same Dynop on the same day about 30 Minutes apart.

So yes I believe you can make a tad more power with the alcohol injection, but I think it has to do more with putting in more timing not so much just the alcohol injection by itself.

Smitty

1MTNCAT
09-03-2010, 10:36 PM
I have a 2 position chip and without running the Snow System I made 302RWHP and with the other tune for the alcohol injection netted 329 RWHP on the same Dynop on the same day about 30 Minutes apart.

So yes I believe you can make a tad more power with the alcohol injection, but I think it has to do more with putting in more timing not so much just the alcohol injection by itself.

Smitty

Thanks for that information and your honesty. That is really all I was getting at here. I guess my only other question would be what did the torque look like on those two dyno pulls and were the peaks the same pull to pull?

Those RWHP gains with the meth and tune are indicative of what my car showed with a 45HP nitrous shot and tune on my 4.6L. About 30 RWHP so you can see how that translates. The 125 Nitrous shot with tune showed about 105RWHP gain on my car for a max of 351RWHP/503TQ.

Dave is correct though, it all comes back to fuel and tuning advantages for power output.

fturner
09-03-2010, 11:14 PM
From my logs etc, running the car completely the same with no change other than having the snow kit running slows the car down because the fuel mixture becomes extremely rich, like into the 9's.

Leaning out the fuel mixture to bring it back to target AFR did not make a difference worth noting Load wise, but the injector duty cycle dropped because of the less demand for fuel.

It also affected the wallet because I'm now just running 91 octane instead of 94 octane fuel and the car is perfectly happy with it.

For my setup at 20% OD My ACT's where not a factor in this since my IC setup keeps the temps well within acceptable ranges, and in fact could be detrimental to running the snow kit because my temps may not be going high enough for atomization of the alcohol until it gets into the cylinders.... theory of course.

I did note a big difference when I jumped up to 25% OD with the ACT's because it was too much for the blower and the temp's went way up, and if it wasn't for the alcohol at that point I would be seeing temps in the high 100's. The car is nice-n-happy with 20% OD.

So as far as being a power adder on its own... I would say no. Calling it a power supporter, I would say yes.

Fraser