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XR7 Dave
10-04-2010, 04:14 PM
Hey guys, I realize this is a very open ended question and I intended it that way. ;)

I'd like everyone who attended to post 4 things.

1) What was the BEST thing about the Shootout that we as human beings had control of. For example, "weather" and "the local cops" doesn't apply since we don't control those things. Looking for things that we did which really "made" your weekend. Be specific.

2) What was the WORST thing about the Shootout. Again, be specific. We want to know what we need to change to make it worth coming back for.

The first 2 questions apply to what the Shootout already is. The next question is what it isn't.

3) What do we need to add to the Shootout to make it better.

And finally,

4) Out of what we did do, and what already is part of the Shootout, should we improve or streamline to make things work smoother or be more enjoyable.

Thanks in advance!

David

mywhite89
10-04-2010, 04:55 PM
My favorite part of this year was the racing for sure. I liked how even if we got knocked out of the competition we were still able to run. I figure, we as a group rent this beast out for the day I want to be able to run my car at any time! Great job of making that possible and thanks to the things we cannot predict that the track didn't break my car!

I thought it was crazy that the track officials said if you run faster than 13.9's you gotta wear a helmet. I snuck past that one the whole time luckily.

Some ideas for improvement. It would be nice to have a list for dynoing. I understood from these forums that this stuff was by appointment but seemed to be first come first serve there which is ok but not great. I would like there to be a written list somewhere by the dyno that as people come they can just write their names down and we can go in order. With a open list we wouldn't need to worry about waiting in a line. I just chose not to dyno this year because I didn't really know the procedure and didn't want to step on anyone elses feet.

Chris

rzimmerl
10-04-2010, 06:04 PM
I thought it was crazy that the track officials said if you run faster than 13.9's you gotta wear a helmet. I snuck past that one the whole time luckily.

Chris,

That's an NHRA rule, you should have one with you when ever you go to track with your car since its well capable of it and the track enforces the rules.

DrFishbone
10-04-2010, 07:09 PM
Hope the ratio of suggestions to praises below don't make it seem like I'm complaining too much....just trying to help. ;)

1) I loved the way the racing was handled - no qualifying and classes were assigned by time trials. I also really liked the final bracket racing rules...really cool :cool: Awesome burgers, chili....sweet place to hang for the car show - very well planned I thought. :cool::) I have something good to say about just about every part of the shootout really - with one exception (see #2:rolleyes:)

2) Ramada Inn

3) :confused: The shootout is the best sc event there is...how can you "better" the best? ;) I think the events within the shootout are all great ideas...I can't think of anything to add to make it better.

4) Communicating the racing rules a little better would help make the racing part more enjoyable. I've still got things to learn about racing, but I think that there was some confusion that could have been minimized or eliminated with a printed copy of the racing rules for the day. It wasn't clear to everyone that there was no breaking-out of classes this year. I thought I understood you (Dave) that we should just really pound the cars in eliminations and not worry about breaking out, but several other guys didn't understand it the same way I did, so I assumed I was wrong. Since my best (but imperfect) passes during time trials were 13.3 - which was the lowest time for Mod1, I was afraid of breaking out during eliminations when I had really good-feeling starts. :( My best ending up being a 13.1.....but honestly, could have been faster if I wasn't afraid of breaking out...even though I was too fast anyway. <hope that doesn't make me look dishonest or like a cheater to anyone. :(>

A more detailed itinerary would help me out, I think. I have a tendency to wander off and miss some of the cool stuff when I'm not sure what's going on. :o


Some ideas for improvement. It would be nice to have a list for dynoing.

+1 - it was pretty confusing...I too felt like I might step on someone's feet by just jumping in. My wife finally bullied me into just jumping in line. :o

neverfastenough
10-04-2010, 07:32 PM
Everything was badass as usual. One complaint about the whole thing. Dalke wasnt racing, I want to beat up on my engine builder/tuner next year. Be there Friday next year and be in something grabber blue.

Kurt K
10-04-2010, 07:33 PM
You know what I'm going to say.....last minute rule changes.

chadder1313
10-04-2010, 07:57 PM
I enjoyed the event. The racing was handled very well on Sunday. My only complaint was the Hotel.

ricardoa1
10-04-2010, 08:10 PM
Hotel and better dyno preparations. There is obviously many that want to dyno to compare their cars to others. But maybe people can understand that dyno time is for competition purposes and if they know that their set up is not competitive or has issues then maybe they should sort those out first. I made a perfect example. I gave up my morning slot because I did not see a point on getting on. I didn't see myself being competitive one and two my junk was not tuned and needed work. Maybe others can also consider this when they sign up or are up next.

nickleman60
10-04-2010, 08:20 PM
Although some will surely disagree, the thing I liked about the Shootout was the curve ball you threw everyone at the track. My first run of the morning was an 11.43 and a track person caught me on the return road and told me I was too fast and needed a rollbar. So back to the truck to jet down the nitrous shot I went. Ran a 11.54 with that and so I made the decision that's what I'm running the rest of the day. Then the curve ball came and back to the truck I went and jetted back up................:D

I also liked the indoor dyno as compared to that portable thing at Muncie last year. Cookout/food was fantastic, thanks a ton to the Oatways for their efforts.

Without the ring leader there, DD, it was a little disorganized. Connie did her best with Neibert helping out and I appreciate that but I think you should have been there to run the show.

Roadhawg
10-04-2010, 08:38 PM
1) I real liked the classes assigned by time trials and the 1 second index in final race setup.

2) I think the 1 sec index with no break out, should of been used for different race classes as well. That way for example, in Pro Street Kurt K with an 11.8 is not expected to run down Chris V with a 11.3, both can run full out and the person who is the most consistent racer wins.

3) Instead of having social gatherings in the parking lot, in which the local police seem to invite them selves. Have them in a location like a hotel conference room or maybe a local American Legion hall

4) Start the registration process earlier.

Dirtyd0g
10-04-2010, 08:43 PM
The racing is always my favorite part. I liked the changes with no complaints.

I thought Connie did a fine job of handling everything. Dave was there when needed and Connie was there when needed. Again no complaints at all.

We do seem to be getting into a trend of bad weather, from the way it looks that is just luck. Next weekend will be considerably better. unfortunately nobody can guess that and it is what it is. We could do it 2 weeks earlier and end up with the same weather and we could put it off another 2 weeks and sweat the entire time.
I do like the track, but think we are going to have to find a different motel if they don't try a little harder to please us.

I think a few prearranged "grudge" matches in the empty time after racing is over would make a good show and friendly competition. It would also give the club something to beat each other up on for the entire year.
Alan

kenewagner
10-04-2010, 09:10 PM
I would like to see items auctioned off be shown off on the sccoa prior to the shootout and tickets bought prior to the shootout as well as at the shootout and than more money could be raised for the shootout. Didnt understand why some people ended in classes they were to fast for:confused: Otherwise the shootout is great for me:D Grudge matches would be sweet. I like that the show was next to the dyno.

Ken

CMac89
10-04-2010, 09:17 PM
1) The geographical location. The dyno and track were located within three miles of the hotel. Much better location/setup than Muncie. All of the sponsors that contribute to banquet prizes and support our group is a great thing, as well.

2) I'm not going to go out on a limb and just judge this, because I don't know what all of the factors were, but dynoing on Saturday seemed cluttered. There was a lot of "me next, me next!!" happening.

3)
http://images01.olx.com.ph/ui/6/45/76/1276949314_76383976_2-INFLATABLE-BOUNCER-FOR-RENT-Paranaque-1276949314.jpg

4) It's always going to be enjoyable as anticipated as it already is throughout each year, but there should be constant effort into improvements.

Mercutio
10-04-2010, 10:19 PM
The best part is a tough call. Lunch on Saturday was a big step up over last year. I liked Kilkare better than Muncie last year.

Worst? Although the hotel restaurant did have the best chicken parmesan this side of Italy, the service was just atrocious. Also, for those that don't know the area well, finding decent food on Friday night is tough. The cluster of hotels we stayed at for the 06 and 07 Shootouts was much better, in my opinion, and with better dining options nearby.

How to make the Shootout better? I'm drawing a blank. Things went very well this year.

1MTNCAT
10-04-2010, 11:00 PM
The things I liked are:

1. Dyno/track is conveniently located. A good thing. I too think that the dyno competition should be that only, not a dyno tune.

2. The food was great. No issues there at all. My only suggestion would be to have a hall, like someone else mentioned nearby to hold that in to stay out of the weather/out of sight, etc. Maybe also to use for the awards ceremony, nightly socializing etc.

3. The racing portion was fine and I saw no issue with how it was set up. This is run what you brung, and hope you brung enough. No lifting & full on passes. If the bar was raised then you just have to go quicker in the class to be competitive! There may need to be an additional class added.

The things I disliked:

1) Dyno tuning mixed in with A dyno competition. Tuning should be completed prior to or after the dyno competition. Whatever it takes to make that happen.

2) I'm in agreement with others on this. I dislike the fact you or Connie do not have the time or do not participate in the drag racing competition. This is for you all too and I believe we'd all take pleasure in seeing your participation in this on the track.

3) Hotel could be a little more considerate for sure. That being said however, so could some of our group. There are other customers in their building besides us. I'll leave it at that.

All in all though, not much that I feel needs changed. Once again an excellent shootout.

Dirtyd0g
10-04-2010, 11:08 PM
FWIW I know people who run the Legion hall next to Precision autosports.
Alan

Kurt K
10-05-2010, 01:18 AM
Just figured I'd air this out completely.

I've already talked to Dalke, but I thought I'd share my thoughts on why I said what I said about last minute rules changes. I'm using the following post as a starting point since it is generally the feelings of all racers, myself included:

3. The racing portion was fine and I saw no issue with how it was set up. This is run what you brung, and hope you brung enough. No lifting & full on passes. If the bar was raised then you just have to go quicker in the class to be competitive!
This is what the Outlaw class was supposed to be for. Quoted from the SC Shootout page

7 - Outlaw - 11.499 and quicker
I'm not the only one that questioned the decision, I'm just the most vocal. And if David would have let me run in Mod 3 like I asked to, then several of those racers would felt the same way I felt.

Had I known in advance that my car had to compete with cars more than .6 seconds (the spread of the entire index) faster than mine , I would have tried my luck in brackets (which I really can't stand anyway) where I had a chance to be competitive.

In the end, it was great seeing everybody's SC getting as fast as they are getting, I just wish a few of us didn't have to fall victim to a last-minute rule change.

If all goes well, my car will be faster next year and maybe even NHRA legal;)

rzimmerl
10-05-2010, 07:22 AM
Kurt, I'll go right along with what you are saying. I didn't really understand what was going on until the brackets were filled out, and realized who was in the same class. It kinda contradicted what was said earlier that we would be placed in classes based upon the mornings runs and not be able to choose.

Also the grudge matches would be cool, pretty sure theres at least one person that would love to settle one since we lined up for the last 2 years of the shootout in the first round.;)

kenewagner
10-05-2010, 07:34 AM
Kurt, I'll go right along with what you are saying. I didn't really understand what was going on until the brackets were filled out, and realized who was in the same class. It kinda contradicted what was said earlier that we would be placed in classes based upon the mornings runs and not be able to choose.

Also the grudge matches would be cool, pretty sure theres at least one person that would love to settle one since we lined up for the last 2 years of the shootout in the first round.;)


I was just about ready to sip a hot drink and almost spilled it on me:rolleyes: Gave me a good belly laugh:D I would love to sign up for a grudge match with you;) and the best could run Neibert again;)

Ken

1MTNCAT
10-05-2010, 09:52 AM
Just figured I'd air this out completely.

I've already talked to Dalke, but I thought I'd share my thoughts on why I said what I said about last minute rules changes. I'm using the following post as a starting point since it is generally the feelings of all racers, myself included:

This is what the Outlaw class was supposed to be for. Quoted from the SC Shootout page

I'm not the only one that questioned the decision, I'm just the most vocal. And if David would have let me run in Mod 3 like I asked to, then several of those racers would felt the same way I felt.

Had I known in advance that my car had to compete with cars more than .6 seconds (the spread of the entire index) faster than mine , I would have tried my luck in brackets (which I really can't stand anyway) where I had a chance to be competitive.

In the end, it was great seeing everybody's SC getting as fast as they are getting, I just wish a few of us didn't have to fall victim to a last-minute rule change.

If all goes well, my car will be faster next year and maybe even NHRA legal;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kurt & rzimmerl

1) There was maybe 1 car that had run faster than 11.50 throughout the year in that class.

2) This was also a different track and different day, different conditions. The same for everyone this time around.

3) I know Neibert and Nickelman60 neither had run quicker than that before so they were in the correct class.

4) Everyone was smack talking. In the end the smack got laid down.

5) Chris had already decided to run outlaw if need be.

6) Nickelman60 had already dialed the shot BACK to be competitive at 11.5 which it ran consistantly. What fun is that?

7) This again is another reason not to lift on these cars and wish you had run them all out. The conditions were nearly optimum for numbers at this event - minus the headwinds of course. The DA was around just 500 feet above sea level. When you get the chance you put the numbers down.


It somewhat disadvantaged the slower cars in the class. But, I also saw faster cars put out in the event also due to breakage or lights. It happens in these classes or any race for that matter.

I think its fine like it is. I do think maybe an additional class could be added now. But I agree with how it is set up to group the cars with pretty much equal mods and power in the groups. What the car runs is up to the driver, conditions, etc.

I'd like to actually see the numbers of the winners and runner ups in each class as opposed to the class designations. I expect most are on the ragged edge if not beyond the actual class designation. PRO Street really stepped it up this year.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth!

Kurt K
10-05-2010, 10:04 AM
The only reason Neibert didn't run faster than the index during qualifying is that it took Dalke about 3 tweaks to fix his tune.

I would even accept a 1 or 2 tenth allowable breakout in each class had it been stated up front. But for guys who are solidly in the middle or upper range of the index, you just can't realistically expect them to be able to make up more than 2 or 3 tenths.

The rules were stated and should have been followed, that's my point.

rzimmerl
10-05-2010, 10:12 AM
Steve,

I am not pointing out anyone, its just the rules changed at the last minute for some reason. I talked with nickleman and knew he had rejetted to stay at the 11.5 index and thats completely acceptable, he also did it since the track caught him to fast without a cage. His car really likes the bottle thats for sure.

At this point it looks like there is a need to add another class between Pro Street and Outlaw since it looks like there will be a few more cars in the 10's or manintaining sub 11.5's.

Dirtyd0g
10-05-2010, 10:17 AM
The downside I see of the rule change really didn't effect this year. Next year everyone will be sand bagging for it.
Alan

kenewagner
10-05-2010, 10:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kurt & rzimmerl

1) There was maybe 1 car that had run faster than 11.50 throughout the year in that class.

2) This was also a different track and different day, different conditions. The same for everyone this time around.

3) I know Neibert and Nickelman60 neither had run quicker than that before so they were in the correct class.




I dont get your statements. What class you ran in was determined by what you ran in the morning that day. What they did on other tracks, and on other days is a mute issue. Running against cars a half second quicker is not competivity racing and hoping they will break or red light to win isnt competivity racing either. And there was more than one car

Ken

nickleman60
10-05-2010, 10:32 AM
Steve,


At this point it looks like there is a need to add another class between Pro Street and Outlaw since it looks like there will be a few more cars in the 10's or manintaining sub 11.5's.

Ryan,
I think you're on to something here. I could see adding a Mod 4 class for the current Pro Street class and then make the Pro Street class 10.80 - 11.49. Outlaw class would then be 10.79 and faster.

1MTNCAT
10-05-2010, 10:38 AM
I brought that up only as indicator. The sign up was prior to any time runs at the track just those cars planning to run in Pro Street. There were a couple cars that ended up not even running in pro street. There were a couple that were quicker than the index in pro street. Yes, I do beleive that an additional class needs to be considered.

On another note, if you look at it another way, similar cars, mods etc it was the correct class. If you look at all the HP/dyno numbers most of those cars are also very close and similar except for Dave's and Nickelman60's car making considerably more.

I don't know the answer but one thing is for sure, everyone needs to bring their A game.

kenewagner
10-05-2010, 10:50 AM
I brought that up only as indicator. The sign up was prior to any time runs at the track just those cars planning to run in Pro Street. There were a couple cars that ended up not even running in pro street. There were a couple that were quicker than the index in pro street. Yes, I do beleive that an additional class needs to be considered.

On another note, if you look at it another way, similar cars, mods etc it was the correct class. If you look at all the HP/dyno numbers most of those cars are also very close and similar except for Dave's and Nickelman60's car making considerably more.

I don't know the answer but one thing is for sure, everyone needs to bring their A game.

I for one am not upset in the least. I was told by Neibert prior to my run against Ryan that the winner would be running him. I would have loved to say I raced him even after a beating he would have layed down on me. Another class would have been a logical solution and might be done in the future. As it was I think everyone gave it their all and the number of improvements in ET for almost everyone is nothing short of amazing. Just a little sad I didnt get to race Ira. As it is I was extremly happy with everything about the shootout and look forward to improving even more next year.

Ken

Roadhawg
10-05-2010, 11:13 AM
The class eliminations should follow the same format as the finals for track champion, fastest time from time trials, with a no break out 1sec index.

I originally thought the Tbird my daughter was driving was going to be in SS. When she made the first pass at 14.06, it was what I expected. Then she made a 13.80 and a 13.74, so I knew she moved to the top of the Mod1. I decided to try to move the car farther down the class by adding 2 degrees of timing, she made a 13.47 pass. The hand held tuner would not allow me to add more timing, so in the immortal words of Scottie, "I had given her all she's got". The other cars in the class where running in the low 13.3 area. There was no way that she could make up the difference, unless the competition had a red light or broke. It would have been easier to pull 4 degrees of timing and dialing the car back to 13.9, but that was not in the spirit of the event. So I sent here out on the track, knowing in the back of my mind the ultimate outcome.

XR7Kurt
10-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Hey guys, I realize this is a very open ended question and I intended it that way. ;)

I'd like everyone who attended to post 4 things.

1) What was the BEST thing about the Shootout that we as human beings had control of. For example, "weather" and "the local cops" doesn't apply since we don't control those things. Looking for things that we did which really "made" your weekend. Be specific.

2) What was the WORST thing about the Shootout. Again, be specific. We want to know what we need to change to make it worth coming back for.

The first 2 questions apply to what the Shootout already is. The next question is what it isn't.

3) What do we need to add to the Shootout to make it better.

And finally,

4) Out of what we did do, and what already is part of the Shootout, should we improve or streamline to make things work smoother or be more enjoyable.

Thanks in advance!

David

1)The positive, laid back attitude was great. I have to believe it was very hectic for those running the thing but it didn't show even when things had to be changed or adjusted. This made for a very relaxing weekend for me.

2)I guess I'll go with the hotel on this one really for lack of anything else being the worst thing.

3) a) An official burnout contest(not in the hotel parking lot or other public type place).
b) Introductions at some point when most of the group is together, maybe kind of an opening ceremony.
c) Give a long distance award for the longest drive.
d) Maybe a board that can be updated with results as the dyno competition goes on. I don't know if the dyno competition is supposed to be a spectator event or not but I loved watching and it would have been even better to have an idea of who was going against who.

4) I'll have to agree that the way the classes changed at the end left me uncompetitive at the end of the day even though I was happy to get my best time on the last run. After only running in the bracket class last year I was looking forward to running in a heads up class for the first time if possible. My times were leaving me .3 short of the 14.50 index but I was going to give it a try anyhow. If I had known I was going to have to give up .8 I would have gone to the bracket class, not trying to get a trophy but it would have been more fun from a competion viewpoint. Hind sight is easy but maybe when classes need to be combined they could be run like when the different class winners line up for the overall track champion. That method seemed to make for some close races and forced everybody to run all out, which the winner of my class didn't really have to do.
Another option could be to pull some cars out of the bracket class that could fit into the heads up classes if need be.

Awesome weekend though and can't wait until next year.

David Neibert
10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
The only reason Neibert didn't run faster than the index during qualifying is that it took Dalke about 3 tweaks to fix his tune.


Kurt,

My slowest pass of the day was an 11.3 and my best was 11.10, so after Dave's announcment I was expecting to be put in Outlaw. Had he not instructed us to run all out during the time trials because there wasn't going to be a formal qualifying pass and he would pick the class, I had planned to add weight after the qualifying pass to get it back down into the 11.5s, to avoid breaking out in the Pro Street class.

David

Nettlesd
10-05-2010, 05:48 PM
The cooking was excellent as it was last year (If the Oatway family are willing to do the cooking for every Shootout then we use this method until they no longer want to do it).
I liked the name tags.
I liked having the Dyno Competition with the Car Show together.
Having the Dyno/Car Show/Track located very close to the hotel.





Not being able to eat our chili indoors.
Registration was way late


For an annual event, the track/hotel/Dyno should be reserved no later than February. Most successful events already have the event rescheduled for the following year a month or two after the event.






Not for the Shootout but for the SCCoA site. Within the “Events” section of the forum, there needs to be a forum for each Shootout (i.e. 2009 Shootout, 2010 Shootout). This would help in keeping everything related to that years Shootout in one place (just like we have a forum for 2003 MN12 Nationals ). This should be easy for one of our web guys.





Keep the name tags
Have pre-printed Car Show registration tags already in our packet (this would include the persons name, car, screen name and car number).
A discount for early registration (maybe $10-$30 off).


The track should be reserved no later than February.
Once the track is reserved, early registration should open with a non refundable deposit of $10-$30.
This allows people to lock in vacation dates way in advance.


Include the black aluminum tags in every registration packet. If you pay the $50 or $100 registration fee, then you should receive an aluminum black tag even if you are a wife or girlfriend.
Location of the track should be revisited every 2-3 years. This gives the people an opportunity to voice their opinion (by Poll). I’m not saying the location has to change but it gives the people some input every 2-3 years with the final decision being made by the Shootout Committee.
Registration fees should be revisited every 1-2 years (by Poll).

VicRattlehead
10-05-2010, 09:02 PM
The cooking was excellent as it was last year (If the Oatway family are willing to do the cooking for every Shootout then we use this method until they no longer want to do it).
I liked the name tags.
I liked having the Dyno Competition with the Car Show together.
Having the Dyno/Car Show/Track located very close to the hotel.





Not being able to eat our chili indoors.
Registration was way late


For an annual event, the track/hotel/Dyno should be reserved no later than February. Most successful events already have the event rescheduled for the following year a month or two after the event.






Not for the Shootout but for the SCCoA site. Within the “Events” section of the forum, there needs to be a forum for each Shootout (i.e. 2009 Shootout, 2010 Shootout). This would help in keeping everything related to that years Shootout in one place (just like we have a forum for 2003 MN12 Nationals ). This should be easy for one of our web guys.





Keep the name tags
Have pre-printed Car Show registration tags already in our packet (this would include the persons name, car, screen name and car number).
A discount for early registration (maybe $10-$30 off).


The track should be reserved no later than February.
Once the track is reserved, early registration should open with a non refundable deposit of $10-$30.
This allows people to lock in vacation dates way in advance.


Include the black aluminum tags in every registration packet. If you pay the $50 or $100 registration fee, then you should receive an aluminum black tag even if you are a wife or girlfriend.
Location of the track should be revisited every 2-3 years. This gives the people an opportunity to voice their opinion (by Poll). I’m not saying the location has to change but it gives the people some input every 2-3 years with the final decision being made by the Shootout Committee.
Registration fees should be revisited every 1-2 years (by Poll).




i have to agree with everything duane said here. there should be a dedicated forum here or on sc-shootout.com

shoalcracker
10-05-2010, 11:04 PM
1) The best is the volunteer network. When you need help ask.

2) The Dyno has a conflict. Registation started on the website and evolved into a free for all on the open thread and may have still stepped over people the day of.

Shoot Out rules should be pre-posted.There are those that build to a time.

3) Why not have a get togethor on Friday Night that includes an intro,family members, car and point of origin. I have a "not likely" concern that somebody could run into a problem we can't solve, if we use parking lots.

4) I like Kurt's idea on the burnouts. Big Dog survivors and posers have the water box filled. Fog it out for cash.

Spectators supply the cash. 50-50 with Club.

Cheer em on and vote them in. Crowd favorite.

I like the idea of making the dyno open to everybody. Post it and when full pull the plug. Don't put it on Ryan, in this case ,to filter the requests.

It doesn't have to be a competition, but can be rewarded after the fact.

As a Tuning tool, you knew in advance and could have accessed prior to.

Sometimes, it's just to know the results of what you'v'e done. All budgets get rewarded.

Shoot Out rules should be pre-posted. I know of one example where the car was deemed to challenge in an advertised class. A lot of practice went into making that decision.

When I saw my dyno number I was convinced that was the class I would run in and said the same to someone close by.

Other comments touched on the the gaps within the classes.

Just throwing it out but;

Can the classes exist or tighten down to 4
2 best run average in trials blended for dial in
.1 something breakout allowed to ensure no dogging in trials and launch
Eliminate bracket class and fit in to existing classes
Bracket within bracket elimination
Driver/car consistentcy rewarded

A lot more math and a touch of Pinks. Just a thought.

I'm thinking some big lead, fast closing runs. Dog vs dogs and a mystery guest potentially for the final.

With the right ladder, theres some grudge matches in the mix.

Paul

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 11:57 AM
Thank-you everyone for your responses so far. Any further comments, please feel free to post. I'm not trying to make this any kind of an argument though, so lets just not go there. I'll explain a few reasons behind some of the things we did or didn't do, and maybe give an idea of what we might look at changing after what has been said.

1) Favorite things: I heard a common theme that we like Dayton. Next year the fees will likely have to go up some to cover expenses as our cost of admission in Dayton has increased significantly. If the group agrees that paying a little more for a guaranteed formula for success is better than taking a chance on a new venue (aka Muncie) then we'll keep Dayton. We could save about $15-20/person on fees and probably about $40-50 on hotel costs by moving the track to Quaker City Raceway in Salem, OH, but again, is it worth it you?

On the favorite things list I also heard a lot about the food. A hot lunch on Saturday seemed to really strike a resonate note! I do know, however; that some people missed the banquet atmosphere for dinner. That was primarily a result of not having enough $$ due to the KilKare issue. I think with a little better planning we can have something more formal again next year.

I heard a lot of both positive and negative comments about the racing - but I'll address that a little later.

2) What didn't you like? Dyno competition seemed to be the biggest gripe. You have to understand that there are some things that just can't be predicted. I had no idea until the week upcoming, that Jeff had to leave due to other commitments. The last year we were in Dayton Jeff also had help on the dyno strapping cars down, and we actually got to the point where no one else wanted to dyno and we had extra time for tuning, etc. This year we had a lot less people sign up for the dyno than in previous years, so in theory, by stretching it out to 2 days, we should have had LOTS of time. Didn't happen. I don't know if there is even a lesson to be learned here - it's just that everything that could have gone wrong - did. The one take away is that we will need have posted signup sheets at the dyno next year. My not being there probably added unnecessarily to the confusion as well.

Hotel. What can I say? When Holiday Inn owned the business it was marginal, but I guess I didn't anticipate how badly it would have fallen down in 2 years. We will go elsewhere in the future even though it will mean a longer drive and higher cost.

Racing - more on that later.

3) Things to add to make it better: The suggestion has been made to add a blog that keeps everyone up to date on the events leading up to and during the event. This is easier said than done because SCCOA is THE central gathering place for anything SC related. I could add a blog to the Shootout website, but people would still come here to ask questions and look for info meaning that the blog won't entirely eliminate the complaints. I don't want to dominate the SCCOA with a million SC Shootout related posts either, and SCCOA has long ago stated that they will not be adding a forum just for us. Then there is the whole "setting it up and maintaining it" thing if we set something up on www.SC-Shootout.com. I'm not a facebook type of person, in fact other than these posts you read here on SCCOA I generally spend just about -0- time online. I don't know anything about blogging or facebook or Twitter type things (and I don't text or phone surf the web either) and therefore would have to add a whole new thing to my already full plate. May or may not happen folks.

Media - Again, I don't see the SC Shootout getting into media aspects - Shootout video, photo's, etc. Sally is doing a great job out of the goodness of her heart. I'm not even going to think about getting involved in the media aspect.

Grudge matches - I suggested and encouraged this in years past. However, there is no way to operate this from an organizational standpoint and no one ever took me up on it anyway. Grudge matches are between people and those people have to set up the parameters for the race. Grudge matches also seem to harbor a lot of ill feelings if someone feels they "have to" race so and so. I think it puts a lot of pressure on certain people that may not be really appreciated. But regardless, there is always plenty of time to run any grudge match you want so just do it.

4) Improvements: Registration - we'll need to concentrate on having an actual room for registration. As for a meet and greet - maybe. That's really what Saturday is all about - a relaxed atmosphere where people can get to know each other. By trying to have a meet and greet on Friday we would eliminate a lot of people from part of the venue due to not being able to arrive until Saturday. Believe it or not, this really a 2 day event.

Racing rules - Ok let's air this out.

First of all, let me state that the rules have never been fair. Ever. It's just some years certain people benefit from them and other years people get slighted by them. It has happened every single year of the SC Shootout and afterward people always come up with great ideas on how to prevent all the problems that happened the day before. Thanks, but that's not really very helpful. We've had the rules written and re-written by people who are drag racing veterans, people who are part of the club, people who are not part of the club, and the list just goes on and on. So if you think you really have the answer that will solve all the problems - think again. We've tried everything and we will continue to try to improve or at least change, hopefully for the better.

This year the rule changes were not last minute. I made the unilateral decision to change the rules back in March. I also made the unilateral decision not to tell anyone until race day. There were a couple reasons for this. 1) Shootout committee members have a vested interest in the rules and therefore could not be impartial. 2) I don't have an iron in the fire - none of my cars even run worth a darn and I didn't even bring one that didn't. 3) It always bothers me how people tend to try to weasel around rules and work the numbers to their advantage. The point of the SC Shootout (check the SC-Shootout homepage for details) is "run what ya brung, and hope you brung enough." I firmly believe that the way it shook down this year represents the best adherence to that mantra that we have ever pulled off in all 8 Shootouts to date. That doesn't mean we'll do it the same way next year, but I believe that it served our mission statement to the fullest extent possible in this case.

For example: David Neibert has stated all year long that 11.50 was his goal. He spent the money for the parts to get the job done, took the time to get his car tuned best he could, and even took racing lessons to improve his R/T's. He also stated over and over again that *if* the car ran faster than 11.50 he would slow the car down and work the index. I could have helped him do this with the tune and made it impossible (short of breakage or a red light) for any of the other P/S guys (who were miffed by the "no breakout rule") to run anywhere close to him. That being the case, you guys running 11.80's would have still had no better chance of winning P/S than you had as it was, and would therefore very possibly slowed your cars down to run M3 or went bracket (although as Kurt said he "hates brackets").

I would ask Kurt to think about what he said. He would rather run brackets (which he hates) than get beaten in P/S. Is the trophy that important? Did we forget Michelle Huffman running 12.40's in a full weight street SC (with air conditioning and street tires) against Kevin's 11.60's 3100lb pseudo race car? I think it's an honor to be capable of running in P/S.

I didn't have any idea how the cars would shake out prior to Sunday morning. Until I arrived Saturday night, Chris had denied running the 11.25's and as far as I knew we had a group of 11.60 cars and I didn't want to see someone lift throttle to keep under the index. Anthony Arnold did that last year and missed perhaps his only opportunity to run an 11.xx because of that. The SC Shootout is not so much about winning as it is about pushing the envelope and seeing what can or cannot be done. The last thing I want to see is for someone to run 11.50's at the Shootout and then come out a week later and run 10.90's. That is a slap in the face and a discredit to the effort that is put into the SC Shootout. We have to find and maintain a way of making it worthwhile for people to do their best at the Shootout.

I completely appreciate all the comments so far. I did not address all the comments in my response, but I have taken down many suggestions that didn't need rebuttal and will be working to incorporate some of them with the help of the SC Shootout Committee. We are committed to providing you with the best for your best. Thanks again!

VicRattlehead
10-06-2010, 01:17 PM
This year the rule changes were not last minute. I made the unilateral decision to change the rules back in March.

you advertised one thing then made the decision to change things and not tell anyone, thats a shaddy move.

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 01:52 PM
you advertised one thing then made the decision to change things and not tell anyone, thats a shaddy move.

Thank you for your support. Having not been there to witness how it all went you are not really in a great position to comment.

This isn't the NMRA. This is a club event and we have the right to change things when and however we want (check the SC Shootout Official Rules page for clarification on this). All I did was lift the breakout rule which allowed the vast majority of the group to run unfettered and in close contest with each other. Had we enforced the breakout rule 90% of the class winners would have either lost or been forced to dumb down their cars to compete in a lower class. Both of which alternatives suck, IMO.

Kurt Bargiel may be the worst affected by the change due to the fact that his car was competitive for Stock class, but as all may have noticed, we did not have enough cars to even have a stock class (1). All competitors who were not happy with their placement within the ladders had the option of running brackets. That has always been their choice.

Kurt K
10-06-2010, 01:53 PM
This year the rule changes were not last minute.It's semantics. It was last-minute for everyone but your.


I would ask Kurt to think about what he said. He would rather run brackets (which he hates) than get beaten in P/S. Is the trophy that important?No what I said is
I would have tried my luck in brackets (which I really can't stand anyway) where I had a chance to be competitive.
I never expect to win anything. Hell, last year I almost added weight to my car so I could move back to Mod 3 because I didn't think I would be competitive running in the upper half of the index. I didn't, and look how it turned out. This year I had less expectations since the class was already bigger than last year and none of my go-fast mods since last year netted any improvement.

I raced against Kevin in one of the earlier Shootouts knowing I didn't have a chance. I didn't think it was much of an honor to get my *** handed to me, I guess I'm not wired that way.

I know the rules cannot be fair to everyone, I'm not even expecting that to happen. I just want to know what the rules are up front and not have them change at the last minutes.

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 02:14 PM
I know the rules cannot be fair to everyone, I'm not even expecting that to happen. I just want to know what the rules are up front and not have them change at the last minutes.

I'm thinking you aren't much into surprise birthday parties either? j/k

The fact is that the rules change didn't materially affect you in this case because your car (and Ryan(s) and Ken's as well) were not competitive even if the other guys ran truncated 11.50's. David's reaction times weren't bad enough to give an 11.80 car a chance. Granted it would have been a closer contest but it still wouldn't have been possible to win other than through a fluke of some sort.

So I guess what I hear is that people are pissed off about the fact that the rules changed, not that the rules change altered the results in any significant manner. I see this as semantics as well.

I guess in the back of my mind I knew I would take heat for this is which is also another reason why I didn't share my intentions. This group is notorious for bending when someone complains about something and while I think a lot of people agree that what I did was a great idea, they would not have wanted to support it knowing how some people would react. On a side note, I don't see any of the winners wanting to hand back their trophies or boycott any races because they didn't think it was fair. They were more than happy to hand their friends their butts.

I think it's important to keep this in perspective. There was no money involved, no prizes, only trophies. Unfortunately though, this is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth from what should be a celebration of victories rather than a focus on defeats.


It's semantics. It was last-minute for everyone but your.
In a way, yes. My point about having made the decision a long time ago wasn't to absolve the last minute implementation of the change, but rather to point out that the decision was not reactionary to any late developments but rather a reaction specifically to what happened last year with all the sand bagging that went on. As the event approached this year and it seemed that no one had crossed the 11.50 barrier anyway, I was thinking that someone might have the ability to run an 11.48 and didn't want them to feel they needed to lift and therefore ruin the chance for a record setting ET. Nowhere in my wildest dreams did I think that 11.0's would be part of the equation. If you were in my shoes on Sunday morning, realizing that your resolve to sweeten the competition slightly was going to result in disparity, would have backed down from your original plan? Maybe so, but I resolved to go ahead, hell or high water. I guess we got both.

1MTNCAT
10-06-2010, 02:22 PM
I don't understand this statement then if the trophy is not important. Which is more important, trophy or running your best ET's in front of the crowd?

I never expect to win anything. Hell, last year I almost added weight to my car so I could move back to Mod 3 because I didn't think I would be competitive running in the upper half of the index. I didn't, and look how it turned out.

You won the Pro Street class correct? But you are saying you would have slowed it down to have a better chance of winning in mod 3?

So its obviously not running all out best ET's then?

Just curious.

Kurt K
10-06-2010, 03:01 PM
So I guess what I hear is that people are pissed off about the fact that the rules changed
Yes



(need 10 characters)

Kurt K
10-06-2010, 03:08 PM
I don't understand this statement then if the trophy is not important. Which is more important, trophy or running your best ET's in front of the crowd?

I never expect to win anything. Hell, last year I almost added weight to my car so I could move back to Mod 3 because I didn't think I would be competitive running in the upper half of the index. I didn't, and look how it turned out.

You won the Pro Street class correct? But you are saying you would have slowed it down to have a better chance of winning in mod 3?

So its obviously not running all out best ET's then?

Just curious.

My point (although maybe not a good one) was to contradict that winning a trophy is that important to me as Dalke suggested. Instead of slowing myself down last year in hopes to have a better chance to win the slower class, I proceeded to compete in the faster class because I could. I figured I didn't have much of a chance to win, but was okay with that since I was running 11's. As luck would have it, I cut some good lights, others didn't, and I surprisingly won.

kenewagner
10-06-2010, 03:18 PM
Unfortunately though, this is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth from what should be a celebration of victories rather than a focus on defeats.




Well I for one am in the celibrating mood what is by far my best at the track.:D I came to run as hard as I could, did just that and loved the final results. Its nice to just be climbing the ladder and improving every year. Shootout is still my favorite place to be each year.

Ken

nickleman60
10-06-2010, 03:49 PM
I thought the format was just fine. I even think it helped me out in the first round with Kurt knowing he was up against a faster car which caused him to try and cut the light of his career which resulted in a red light. Luck had it that I blew the tires off the line and still won due to his redlight, that was my golden horseshoe up the rear moment.

Like Dave said, I was ready to "dumb" my car down which I made one run with the 75 shot in the practice rounds and still smoked Kurt with an 11.54 so to me it's a mute point. I say step up your game for next year and go huntin' for big dogs, I did and surprized not only myself but quite a few others in the process.

machausta
10-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Registration was way late

For an annual event, the track/hotel/Dyno should be reserved no later than February. Most successful events already have the event rescheduled for the following year a month or two after the event.


This is the single biggest thing for me...I have to get my vacation time submitted by June at the latest for anything in October to be available. I hope to be able to register & pay by April if at all possible.

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 04:07 PM
My point (although maybe not a good one) was to contradict that winning a trophy is that important to me as Dalke suggested. Instead of slowing myself down last year in hopes to have a better chance to win the slower class, I proceeded to compete in the faster class because I could. I figured I didn't have much of a chance to win, but was okay with that since I was running 11's. As luck would have it, I cut some good lights, others didn't, and I surprisingly won.

And I was the first to congratulate you last year. I was genuinely proud of your accomplishment kicking everyone else's butt (especially David's). This year, while you in no way affected my decision to lift the breakouts, I had just hoped that you would consider this a call to action for next year rather than a kick in the face for this year as it certainly wasn't intended that way.

First Micah, now you. Who will I beguile next? :confused:

ScrapSC
10-06-2010, 04:12 PM
I will admit I was caught way off guard like everyone else. But in my position my car wasnt running like it did last year. It was stuck in the 12.20's and low 12.30's... Belt slip was killing me even with a new belt on. That is why I was practicing the tree each time up and pushed to hard with a .015 red in my run with Tuck. I for one wish that the setup for the class winners had of been the same last year and I would have more than likely had the 11 sec time slip. It is just a habit when you race bracket all the time to ease up at the end if you have a lead to hopefully keep from breaking out, that I didnt accomplish last year either with a 12.07....

The curveball hasnt left a bad taste in my mouth and I had a blast at the track win or lose. I was stoked to see the 11.0 passes that I wouldnt have got to see if people started throwing blocks, tires, and anything else laying loose to run 11.50's. The no break out was good idea this year and with the numbers the cars are now running just shows we need to tweak the classes. It allowed for us to run it all out and see what the cars can do. Hind sight being 20 20 I would give the trophy up for an 11 sec time slip...

old_coot
10-06-2010, 04:12 PM
If it matters, since I didn't get to compete (my junk broke).I came to run my car as hard as it could.
I have a whole garage full of trophys at home...won at tracks that I knew maybe two or three people there.
I am competitive but I compete against myself....I try to make myself better and make my car faster. When I do that "I win". When I pull on the track, my plan is to give you my best shot and if you are better then at least I had a great seat to watch you run. I win more than I lose and always have fun...thats what it means to me......In other words, do it again Dave, I got your back....Dan

DrFishbone
10-06-2010, 04:35 PM
I still like the way it was handled - I feel alot better being placed in a class and being allowed to break out if it happens. I haven't even been to a strip since last Shootout and had no idea that my first run of the day would be a new best by .6 !!! :eek: - let alone 10 runs later, topping that with a 13.1!! :D

I only regret not pushing the car harder on my last two runs...that was my own fault for not understanding the rules...just like it was my fault for red-lighting on the final race for Mod1....still kicking myself for that!!! :o First-place trophy went to a good guy and a good racer though! :)

Micahdogg
10-06-2010, 04:40 PM
It is just my opinion, but I believe that people deserve to know what they are signing up for. I like this event because it is focused primarily on the MN12 platform (largely 3.8L motors). I would not be pleased to pay my 2011 registration, then when I show up next year find out that the "SC XR7" part was dropped and it is now just a "Shootout" for any and every car/truck.

Likewise, people were told that classes would be indexed and if they broke out, they would be sitting out. They were also told that NHRA rules would be enforced. Niether happened. While it made for a wildly entertaining event...it slapped other people in the face who had been building cars with specific "rule related" goals in mind.

Kurt is one example. His car ran 11.70's, with 11.60 potential and he's been working all year cutting good lights and modding his car with an 11.50 goal. He knows he can wring that car out and probably not break out. If he did, I know he would have gladly sat out with a new personal best.

Nickleman can say he ran 11.54 so it's a moot point, but I don't think he would have gone 11.54 knowing there was a 11.500 index. Especially considering the times he was pulling earlier. I also don't think he would have appreciated running an 11.54 against Chris Lazzo running a 9.XX - and simply being told to "step it up." Rather I think he would have pointed to the index.

I don't know if the future will have indexes or not, but we should not be winging it at the last minute.

P.S.
The last thing I want to see is for someone to run 11.50's at the Shootout and then come out a week later and run 10.90's. That is a slap in the face and a discredit to the effort that is put into the SC Shootout.

I don't think that is a slap in the face, does my opinion matter? I understand that many people enjoy playing the game of drag racing. Don't we get excited when a slower car can beat the faster one via reaction time? Last I checked we don't deny the winner and say, "Well, the other guy was clearly faster...he even e.t.'d better, so we'll just give him the win instead."

David Neibert
10-06-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm not giving my trophy back :)

David

VicRattlehead
10-06-2010, 05:26 PM
It is just my opinion, but I believe that people deserve to know what they are signing up for. I like this event because it is focused primarily on the MN12 platform (largely 3.8L motors). I would not be pleased to pay my 2011 registration, then when I show up next year find out that the "SC XR7" part was dropped and it is now just a "Shootout" for any and every car/truck.

Likewise, people were told that classes would be indexed and if they broke out, they would be sitting out. They were also told that NHRA rules would be enforced. Niether happened. While it made for a wildly entertaining event...it slapped other people in the face who had been building cars with specific "rule related" goals in mind.

Kurt is one example. His car ran 11.70's, with 11.60 potential and he's been working all year cutting good lights and modding his car with an 11.50 goal. He knows he can wring that car out and probably not break out. If he did, I know he would have gladly sat out with a new personal best.

Nickleman can say he ran 11.54 so it's a moot point, but I don't think he would have gone 11.54 knowing there was a 11.500 index. Especially considering the times he was pulling earlier. I also don't think he would have appreciated running an 11.54 against Chris Lazzo running a 9.XX - and simply being told to "step it up." Rather I think he would have pointed to the index.

I don't know if the future will have indexes or not, but we should not be winging it at the last minute.

P.S.

I don't think that is a slap in the face, does my opinion matter? I understand that many people enjoy playing the game of drag racing. Don't we get excited when a slower car can beat the faster one via reaction time? Last I checked we don't deny the winner and say, "Well, the other guy was clearly faster...he even e.t.'d better, so we'll just give him the win instead."

perhaps micah said it better then i did earlier but i agree with what he said here. paying and signing up for one thing then getting something else that isnt what you expect kinda throws you off.

Mercutio
10-06-2010, 05:57 PM
We could save about $15-20/person on fees and probably about $40-50 on hotel costs by moving the track to Quaker City Raceway in Salem, OH, but again, is it worth it you?


I realize that changing locations will always hurt some people and help others; that's just the way it goes. However, moving the event to Salem would add another 4.5 hours to my drive, cost me another night at the hotel Sunday, and require me to take another day off work to drive home on Monday. So for me it would dramatically increase the cost of attending the Shootout, not reduce it.

So no, I would absolutely prefer NOT to move the event that far in that direction.

Nettlesd
10-06-2010, 06:00 PM
I don't want to dominate the SCCOA with a million SC Shootout related posts either, and SCCOA has long ago stated that they will not be adding a forum just for us.

I don't understand that all at. There's no difference in having 10 SC Shootout posts within the Non Technical Forum versus the same 10 posts within a 2010 SC Shootout forum.

Just because they said that 10 years ago doesn't mean they won't today. Has anyone asked George or Duffy if they would create the different forums for us?

Just seems odd that we can keep the old nationals forums around but can't create new forums for an ongoing event. Give me the power and I'll maintain and manage them.

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 06:35 PM
perhaps micah said it better then i did earlier but i agree with what he said here. paying and signing up for one thing then getting something else that isnt what you expect kinda throws you off.

The announcement was intended to throw people off, otherwise it would have been announced earlier. I didn't want people to have time to react, only to do the best they could. I think this is exactly what happened.

As for signing up and paying for one thing and then getting another, I think that argument is entirely false. 1) Out of all the attendees, who would NOT have attended if all we had was a bracket race? I wager that of all the people who were in the running prior to the announcement based on last years' rules, would be there anyway. People did not choose to attend or not attend based on the class structure or lack of it. I simply do not believe that. 2) As for what people signed up for, that in itself is a circular argument. People signed up for classes and then expected to be able to change classes after time trials. So in effect, no one expected to have to run in the class they signed up for in the first place.

In retrospect I can see where the final determination was somewhat arbitrary. I did not specifically say "anyone unhappy with their assignment is welcome to run Bracket Class", however, that has always been policy. I can see where this might make someone feel they were "forced" into a class other than they wanted or were able to run in. However, if you were looking at the time score card I was after time trials, I doubt you would totally disagree with my decisions as to who went into what class. I did my best to group the cars where they would be most competitive. Even so, no one was forced to run in any particular class. Likewise, if we do not have enough participants in any one class, we retain the right to cancel that class and give the members the option to move up a class or run brackets. That is also a standard part of the rules structure and process, at the discretion of the SC Shootout.

If we get past the argument aspect, I think we can all see that it is going to be necessary to alter the class structure for next year. We have clearly outgrown our current format, which is a good thing!

XR7 Dave
10-06-2010, 06:44 PM
I don't understand that all at. There's no difference in having 10 SC Shootout posts within the Non Technical Forum versus the same 10 posts within a 2010 SC Shootout forum.

Just because they said that 10 years ago doesn't mean they won't today. Has anyone asked George or Duffy if they would create the different forums for us?

Just seems odd that we can keep the old nationals forums around but can't create new forums for an ongoing event. Give me the power and I'll maintain and manage them.

I think there is a difference between having 10 Shootout posts in the non-tech forum vs. same 10 posts in an SC Shootout forum. There are people who don't race and don't want to read about racing. I've fielded complaints about Shootout threads in the non-tech forum before.

For now we (the SC Shootout Committee) try to keep all Shootout posts in the Events forum. But even there, local chapters don't like being flooded out with Shootout threads which leads us to the SC Shootout forum idea.

It wasn't 10 years ago that George told me that we should use the Events forum for Shootout posts and that he did not see the need for an additional forum. I don't think he felt that the previous additional forums served much purpose other than to muddy up the forums list. I am not sure why they haven't been deleted or merged, but maybe no one knows how to do it. Anyway, George doesn't generally say things unless he means it and I don't care to harp on him about something he doesn't necessarily support. I've already said that we could start a blog or forum on the SC Shootout website, but I'm not down for maintaining something like that right now. Maybe if we put the right pieces together it can be made to work out. As I said, I'm not against a lot of the suggestions made. I have taken them down and will work towards addressing them as time goes forward.

Dirtyd0g
10-06-2010, 06:47 PM
Maybe the Shootout website needs an attached forum.....

Micahdogg
10-06-2010, 07:46 PM
As for signing up and paying for one thing and then getting another, I think that argument is entirely false. 1) Out of all the attendees, who would NOT have attended if all we had was a bracket race?

Isn't it possible for people to attend, not having clearly defined rules, yet still be unhappy about it? Kurt happens to be the most vocal, but there were other people who didn't like the index being dropped, but they are still reporting that they had a good time. I still contend that people deserve to have rules to rely upon. Especially those who are somewhat purposely modding their car with the Shootout in mind.


I did my best to group the cars where they would be most competitive.

Maybe that is the way it should be handled from here out. Everyone just show up, make your runs, then group people into matches that make the most sense. Sounds like a "Pinks" style format is what we are heading toward. I vote Kurt Sunday for calling out the sandbaggers.

Nettlesd
10-06-2010, 08:01 PM
I think there is a difference between having 10 Shootout posts in the non-tech forum vs. same 10 posts in an SC Shootout forum. There are people who don't race and don't want to read about racing. I've fielded complaints about Shootout threads in the non-tech forum before.

I'm not completely sure I understand the "read about racing" part but that's ok. I just thought it would be nice to keep things organized and categorized so things were easy to see and find. Makes sense to me but I'm sure others don't see it that way. Just a different way at looking at something, that's all.

Events
Read Before Posting: SCCoA Rules and Forum Purpose

2003 Super Coupe Shootout
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2009 Super Coupe Shootout
2010 Super Coupe Shootout



For now we (the SC Shootout Committee) try to keep all Shootout posts in the Events forum. But even there, local chapters don't like being flooded out with Shootout threads which leads us to the SC Shootout forum idea.

I can see that the Committee does do a good job of keeping the posts in that forum. In actuality, the posts within the Non Tech forum should be moved to the Events forum.

SCCoA Events
Planning on attending an event, attended an event and want to share pictures or stories? Place it in here.

It's been good discussion which I like.

Mike8675309
10-06-2010, 08:01 PM
I couldn't make it this year due to financial issues but I will fore-go some local events next year so i can make it. In which case I volunteer to work with the event committee to help with event communications. I have some ideas. I think people put too much on Dave Dalke and a handfull of regular volunteers, i.e organization at the dyno. (there are some things that could be learned from how autocross groups operate)

One of the challenges seems to be getting enough drivers to attend the event. Anything that can be done to keep and/or improve attendance is a win outside of cutting the event price.

I suggest whatever rules that need to be established, that they be established early, and that they don't change unless the event committee sees a good reason to change it. Take the knowledge from all the prior events, and roll it into something that is workable.

I do think it is important to remember one of the goals of this event had been to be where the best SC's come and find out who really is the best. I don't think you find that out by detuning your car to hit a number. You'll always have folks that do that, but I don't know that there is much you can do other than ridicule those sand-baggers after the event.

As far as where the event is held, that's been looked into in the past. the highest concentration of SC owners is in a fairly well defined geographic area. I guess you could look at where those that attended are from and see if that still matches up with the sc owners map. If so anywhere within 400 miles of that area should be good enough. I know none of the locations will be closer to me. it's far enough already that what's another 2 hours of driving?

1MTNCAT
10-06-2010, 11:00 PM
Likewise, people were told that classes would be indexed and if they broke out, they would be sitting out. They were also told that NHRA rules would be enforced. Niether happened. While it made for a wildly entertaining event...it slapped other people in the face who had been building cars with specific "rule related" goals in mind.

Kurt is one example. His car ran 11.70's, with 11.60 potential and he's been working all year cutting good lights and modding his car with an 11.50 goal. He knows he can wring that car out and probably not break out. If he did, I know he would have gladly sat out with a new personal best.

Nickleman can say he ran 11.54 so it's a moot point, but I don't think he would have gone 11.54 knowing there was a 11.500 index. Especially considering the times he was pulling earlier. I also don't think he would have appreciated running an 11.54 against Chris Lazzo running a 9.XX - and simply being told to "step it up." Rather I think he would have pointed to the index.

I don't know if the future will have indexes or not, but we should not be winging it at the last minute.

P.S.

I don't think that is a slap in the face, does my opinion matter? I understand that many people enjoy playing the game of drag racing. Don't we get excited when a slower car can beat the faster one via reaction time? Last I checked we don't deny the winner and say, "Well, the other guy was clearly faster...he even e.t.'d better, so we'll just give him the win instead."


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1) So what you are saying is Kurt had been building a purpose built car for just the 11.50 class all year to take it out and win the class. Again not for best ET's but for Class winner/trophy designation?

2) He would have been happy sitting on the sidelines if he broke out with a new personal best? In the format provided he could have done that and still been in the competition.

3) Nickelman60 dialed the car back to run 11.50's after the earlier 13.4 runs. That is a fact and it would have run it all day long as long as he got it down the track like normal. So had it stood he NEVER would have gotten that 11.33 if there was no breakout or extention of the times. As far as what would have happened if he got moved to outlaw, you'd have to ask him. But I do know one thing, he was happy as all get out to run the final numbers he ran with his car.

4) Running Outlaw with Chris Lazzo or Kevin wouldn't have made much difference as he still would have aired it out and got his best ET if that is what needed to be done. I know Chris Vining was planning on doing that regardless. He was running for numbers not class.

5) Its great when a slower car beats a quicker one in brackets due to someone getting a better light, a driver going red, car breaking etc. Its greater when you can run a better ET than the next guy on the day PERIOD! The list starts at Number 1 (Quickest) down to Slowest. I'm guessing that is why the list is maintained to show that and the improvements over time.

Maybe it should just be an all out race day/grudge match and in the end just give out trophies to the quickest 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 second class cars. 6 trophies would cover it all and you know where you need to be then, no questions asked. "Run what you brung and hope your brung enough".

Kurt K
10-07-2010, 12:01 AM
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1) So what you are saying is Kurt had been building a purpose built car for just the 11.50 class all year to take it out and win the class. Again not for best ET's but for Class winner/trophy designation?


It was an example.

As I said before, my beef is not about the rules, but the last-minute rule change.

rzimmerl
10-07-2010, 07:17 AM
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1) So what you are saying is Kurt had been building a purpose built car for just the 11.50 class all year to take it out and win the class. Again not for best ET's but for Class winner/trophy designation?


I for one am building a car for 11.50. Why, not for some trophy, because I don't want to be legally enforced to put a roll bar in it. I believe this maybe the same for others here. I still like to be able to put the car seats in and take the family out in it.

super red91
10-07-2010, 07:58 AM
I for one am building a car for 11.50. Why, not for some trophy, because I don't want to be legally enforced to put a roll bar in it. I believe this maybe the same for others here. I still like to be able to put the car seats in and take the family out in it.

I have that same goal for the same reason

1MTNCAT
10-07-2010, 08:08 AM
Thats what I thought. No problem with that I suppose.

So you're just worried about bracket racing and not ET. Thats cool!

rzimmerl
10-07-2010, 08:21 AM
My car is not being built to be drag star. I just want to have a car with some power to play around with, and put down some impressive times for what the car is the few times per year I go to the track. I came to that realization this year since my little ones enjoy going for a cruise as much as I do, so I sold the skinnies I had and bought another matching Simpson car seat to go in it.

I still like class racing at the shootout not bracket racing, but it comes to the point where a roll bar just isn't what I want. How many cars this year after running were required to have a roll bar, and continued to run without one?

Roadhawg
10-07-2010, 08:22 AM
I don't want to be legally enforced to put a roll bar in it. I believe this maybe the same for others here.

I hear this winter; the Virginia gang will be putting rollbars in their Tbirds.
Seems they will be able to legally swim in the deepend of the pool next year.
Take about raising the bar..........:cool:

XR7 Dave
10-07-2010, 08:30 AM
You guys are forgetting that I didn't re-write the rules, I only temporarily lifted the breakout rule and I only did that because of the rampant sandbagging of last year. If any of you had been even remotely close to the index I would have been forced to change my mind. However, since everyone opposed to the decision was .3 over the index, the net net result didn't change.

All you guys really wanted to do is force David, Chris, and Keith out of Pro Street so you could split the trophies among yourselves. Fact is only Chris was willing to move up so you'd still have been faced with the same results - no chance of winning.

I can see now that I was in complete error to do this. I have contemplated ways to keep the racing interesting in the future by changing things to give more people a chance to win in different ways. I can see that this is unwelcome.

If you guys like the indexes that much I'll back away and let you have them as they were last year. For the faster guys I'll just add more classes and then the trophies will be purchased based on who registers for what class. This means we'll have 10 or more classes listed, but if we don't have enough registrations for any particular class, there will be no trophies.

I sincerely apologize for screwing up your race day, you guys have sure as heck screwed up my week.

Kurt K
10-07-2010, 08:41 AM
Dave,

I've said it several times, but I'll say it one last time. For me it was about the last-minute change to the rules, not the rules as they were written.

Decide on the rules and stick with them.

I'm in the same boat as others. I currently don't want to install a roll-bar in my car.

rzimmerl
10-07-2010, 08:42 AM
..........

XR7 Dave
10-07-2010, 09:05 AM
Dave,

I've said it several times, but I'll say it one last time. For me it was about the last-minute change to the rules, not the rules as they were written.

Decide on the rules and stick with them.

I'm in the same boat as others. I currently don't want to install a roll-bar in my car.

If it's only about the fact that it was a last minute change, and it didn't affect you anyway, then why all the uproar about it? In fact the rules modification did not materially affect the outcome of ANY class. We either had double breakouts or none at all.

I see this as a lot of grandstanding about nothing. However, if your point(s) were to force a return to '09 rules, then you've made your case and please drop it! If your intent is just to rub my nose in it then please just carry on. I'm done here.

nickleman60
10-07-2010, 09:07 AM
I will continue to work on improving my car, et's and driver skills. I don't care what class I fall under next year because I'll do the same as this year, run WOT. Yes, I do plan on installing a rollbar this winter because my next goal is to run a 10.99. I know that will put me at the slow end of Outlaw but who cares, I don't. I want the satifaction of saying I have a 10 second V-6 Supercoupe street car, which to this date is a very short list. I'm sure that Chris and David N. will be there before me but if I get there I'll be part of an elite group. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I be close to this goal.

Next year, whatever format is used doesn't matter to me. I'm there to run my azz off and have a good time which I did this year. Dalke did what he thought was right and I have no problem with that. One thing is for sure though, you'll never satisfy everyone so you try to satisfy the majority which he did.

neverfastenough
10-07-2010, 09:23 AM
I think its a pretty simple fact that unless we go bracket only, theres always going to be people that are at the top end of an index. If I would have gotten my junk to hook, I would have gotten raped in Pro Street. I dont care, I had several people poke jokes that with 500rwhp that I should have to race that class, I just wanted to get in there and run the crap outta my car and post a new time. If the shootout continues, I bet my turbo that someones always going to be pissed about a class or an index, there will always be someone. I vote for a no whining rule, someone needs to call the wambulance.

http://www.thewambulance.com/images/wambulance_logo.jpg

And I think stopping at 11.50 is lame, if I go 11.50. I dont plan to stop there. If you guys dont want a bar since you street drive, that must mean you're on the street most of the time. And Id love to have sub 11.50 power on the street if I could. Why stop cuz you need a bar, when you could build something to scare the crap outta you on the street. It would be like David N putting my turbo on his 347 so he doesnt need a bar. I dont think it would scare him as much:rolleyes:

CMac89
10-07-2010, 10:19 AM
If that Wambulance comes with an order of french cries then I agree.

Fact is, that as an experienced drag racer in the most popular drag racing circuit (NHRA), there is NO such thing as complete parity. It goes along the lines of nothing being 100% or even 0%. Every single category in NHRA has some sort of emaciated rule that favors most, but not all. People will always take it seriously as there are numerous law suits and subpoenas being thrown at NHRA's face for it. It's serious stuff, but saying that there will never be any issues with rules is like saying racism will vanish one day. Isn't gonna happen. This is where politics start coming into play.

I know this isn't NHRA, but I just wanted to explain the fairness attempts to class racing. The Shootout committee will do something to make it as fair as possible for as many people as possible, but complete atonement is out of the question.

KYSal
10-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Things I liked:
1.THE SHOOTOUT HAPPENED AGAIN AND I WAS ABLE TO ATTEND!! I would choose this or regular racing anytime.
2.I liked being able to contribute something of value that my peers like (photos and books)!! I will bring some more stuff more “stuff” for next year to donate to help raise money to keep the SHOOTOUT alive.
3.I liked the no breakout rule (might need to tweak that a bit if someone tries to USE it)
4.FOOD was awesome!

Things I didn’t like:
1.Some a$$-munch criticizing the organization of the event ticks me off (and apparently some others as well). No, it might not be perfect but nothing ever is and for those involved to do it from so far away is amazing. Maybe a few more locals could help out finding venues to host lunches etc. to make it easier. (I’d be willing to try to help in some way or other) Maybe we unload an enclosed car hauler and set up shop in it that way Habib can kiss our tails and we aren’t relying on finding a place and/or spending money.
2.I don’t like NOT RACING…but I don’t think anyone can help me with that.
3.I don’t like it that Dalke’s are too busy to race! Would like for them to have the opportunity to race if they want.
4.Y’all are gonna BOO me on this one, but I’ll say it. The parking lot burn outs, although BADASS, don’t really help Connie and them find a hotel that is willing to accommodate us year after year. If we find a nice place that we’d like to return to we have to respect that this is their business and we’re not their only customers. (ok, I said it…..)Not to mention they might be assuming the risk if anyone gets hurt or something gets destroyed, not sure about that….but you never know. An alternative could be meeting at a local track local track on Friday night…I am thinking they would accommodate a burnout competition or something along those lines (and people could get in additional time runs if they wanted to) We could set up registration etc…. again eliminating the need for an outside venue hosting it. If it rains, not sure…. McAwesome does have a motor home AND a trailer. 
5.As for the racing – problem is guys have too much testosterone and anytime they are in competition with someone it is about winning (ok for women too). For anyone who races, it is about going to the next round. I have never heard anyone satisfied sitting on the trailer with the fastest MPH for the weekend (unless there was a trophy for that). So since we can’t change the beasts within most of us, we just need to look at making things as competitive as possible so when someone walks away with a trophy it does mean something. (Ex. Before you read this, trust me I love Lois to death so it’s nothing against her, but I think she won a trophy and red lit…so basically that was a participation trophy). I mean you are a smart group of guys we can think of something….
6.Just some ideas:
a.Eliminate 2nd & 3rd place trophies in each round and increase number of indexes to make them more competitive.
i.Example – Mod 2 (12.60 – 12.90), Mod 3 (12.30 – 12.60), Mod 4 (12.0 – 12.30)
ii.Example Bracket all 12 second cars, 13 second cars and so on
iii.Example Bracket race, draw names out of hat who you’ll be competing against for the round that way you get to race against ANYONE there…
b.Eliminate all round trophies period. Have ONE – track champ 3 ft trophy, crystal vase, or track jacket. You race against the person nearest your time. When the index becomes greater than 3/10…bracket race between those cars.

Of course all that is easy to say, might be harder to accommodate in the short amount of time we have at the track. Just maybe some stuff to toss around.
Everyone involved….I applaud you in your efforts because regardless it’s a SUPER FUN EVENT!!

Every "game or sport" is about strategy, you're up against the best and you're trying to figure out how to win. Just like the two years ago when Smitty and I raced. That was the best/funnest race yet for me...because we were competitive. Yes he was slightly quicker and could have dropped to Mod 3, but because it was within a range of "doable", I had to develop my strategy and went for it. I think if we give each other a fighting chance within the classes and make the possiblity within reach...all would be satisfied. :)


Sal

Micahdogg
10-07-2010, 11:01 AM
My biggest regret is telling Roadhawg that he couldn't race in the Mod classes. I like his car and wanted him to race. But I thought that the rules meant something. If I thought I could just tell him to race in that class because it is what I wanted to see, things would have been different.

KYSal
10-07-2010, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=I sincerely apologize for screwing up your race day, you guys have sure as heck screwed up my week.[/QUOTE]

Dave, I don't think you screwed it up...you attempted to make it interesting and different. And because we are some sanctioned event we can do that...You tried to give people a chance while avoiding the pitfalls from last year. I for one can appreciate that because when all is said and done, me racing against Neibert or Binks heads up would be like me playing a game of basketball against Anthony.
Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't but I think the attempt is what was important and needs to be noted. If it become routine and methodical...what's the fun in that? You made people think on their toes...some won and some lost (like Anthony..lol) but if he'd taken Mod 3 again this year...who would really want to enter that class next year?
So my vote is SHAKE it UP...MAKE things DIFFERENT! Don't have the same classes, don't have the same trophies. I don't care, I just like the "fun" part.

kenewagner
10-07-2010, 12:05 PM
Like Ryan Im not interested, at this time, to put a cage in going below 11.5 I just want a fast car in street trim. I came to the shootout expecting a real high 11 second pass which would not have made me competive in the pro street. I didnt expect the car to run a 11.69. Unfortuniately by the time I raced Ryan in was only spinning one wheel during the burnout and red lighting with a dismal 12.0 run. So Dave is correct in regards to me at least in that I wasnt going to walk away with the trophy in Pro Street. I think all in all the shootout is a great success and people like Dave and Connie get big kudos from me even with a pink name tag i ended up with:D I hope Dave stays as active as he is in all the shootout related things as it takes a driving force to pull off an advent like this. Next year will be bigger and better

Ken

super red91
10-07-2010, 12:17 PM
And I think stopping at 11.50 is lame, if I go 11.50. I dont plan to stop there. If you guys dont want a bar since you street drive, that must mean you're on the street most of the time. And Id love to have sub 11.50 power on the street if I could. Why stop cuz you need a bar, when you could build something to scare the crap outta you on the street. It would be like David N putting my turbo on his 347 so he doesnt need a bar. I dont think it would scare him as much:rolleyes:

It's not about being lame and stopping, it's a goal. While my car is mostly driven on the street, I enjoy occasionaly taking it to the track. The reason for that is to see if what I did to the car improved its times. Getting booted from the track because of no cage doesn't allow me to do this. My other goal is to have the fastest 5spd, this can also be accomplished without a cage currently.

If I need to put a cage in it to accomplish a future goal, I probably will...but thats something that I will really have to think about. For me a car that can drive in off the street, rip off a mid 11, and drive home is WAY more interesting in my book than something that runs in the 10's or 9's and is purpose built for the track.

1MTNCAT
10-07-2010, 12:31 PM
"For me a car that can drive in off the street, rip off a mid 11, and drive home is WAY more interesting in my book than something that runs in the 10's or 9's and is purpose built for the track."

I can't speak for Nieberts car but I know that Blown38, Nickelman60 and Keegans car all run low 11.0's high 10.s and all are street legal and street driven.

So what is your point?

Pretty sure they will be doing it with a bar in it next year too. That doesn't make them non streetable.

Micahdogg
10-07-2010, 12:47 PM
So because someone can run low 11's, mid 11's as a goal is pointless? That's a good one. Why stop at low 11's. Why not make your street car run something fast like 6's. I've seen people drive their car around on rainy roads and pull into the track and be like, "I want to run a 6." Then be like, "I'm bored, I'm going to the grocery store."

super red91
10-07-2010, 12:55 PM
"For me a car that can drive in off the street, rip off a mid 11, and drive home is WAY more interesting in my book than something that runs in the 10's or 9's and is purpose built for the track."

I can't speak for Nieberts car but I know that Blown38, Nickelman60 and Keegans car all run low 11.0's high 10.s and all are street legal and street driven.

So what is your point?

Pretty sure they will be doing it with a bar in it next year too. That doesn't make them non streetable.

And all of those cars do exactly what I think is awesome. I'm talking about cars specifically built for the track, while they may run faster, they lack the coolness factor of being driven on the street.

Also, some peoples view of "street" car are pretty different. I'm sure John Force could drive his car down a public road if he wanted, does that means its a street car?

I never said a roll bar makes a car non-streetable, it does however make it less street enjoyable.

Dirtyd0g
10-07-2010, 01:00 PM
Sigh!
I thought it was an interesting rule. You just can't please everyone.I do look at the event a little different. To me it is a great time to get together with great people and do some racing. Win or lose the goal is to have some fun and enjoy our cars at the same time. I was eliminated in round 1 because the car I was driving couldn't run the same number back to back on a bet. I wasn't even upset about it I pretty much knew it going in but I did my best with what I had. My only regret is spending the week making that car ready to run instead of mine. This is the kind of thing that ruins interest in the event. To me a rule is a rule and as long as everyone has to follow the rule it is fair. What if it had been the other way around, add a second to everyones time. I'm sure someone would have complained about that too but it is completely fair, takes the car out of the equation and relies on the drivers instincts.
Alan

CMac89
10-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Everyone just finished shaking hands, don't forget that.

There's nothing wrong with having a goal, but if one stops at that goal, then that's what is referred to as settling. There are people that believe one must constantly strive for something greater and anything less to them is considered settling. This just depends on personality and is a completely different topic.

fturner
10-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Would the complainers be complaining like this if the last minute change had happened and they actually won something because of it?

I have a feeling I know the answer to that one.....

Fraser

neverfastenough
10-07-2010, 01:52 PM
Weee WOOOO weee WOOO...... Wambulances on the way

Micahdogg
10-07-2010, 02:33 PM
Would the complainers be complaining like this if the last minute change had happened and they actually won something because of it?

I have a feeling I know the answer to that one.....

Fraser

As it was, just removing the indexes didn't do the "complainers" any favors. The complainers are generally the people who were not the fastest in each class. So the "last minute change" would have needed to be moving the indexes up 2-3 tenths in each class.

This change would have pushed several "close to the index" individuals into a class they are no longer competitive in.......or they would have had to slow it WAY down to try and stay in their class. Do you think they would have complained?

I almost didn't attend the very first shootout. Why? Because I knew who I would be racing, and I knew they were faster. Why should I beat my car up just to lose? But I was told that I should support the shootout, show up and contribute to the overall event. I did, and I got my butt kicked. When indexes were later instituted, it gave the less competitive guys a chance. If you are within 2-3 tenths of the index, it puts pressure on those who are right at (or under) the index to not break out. It is easier for guys like me to give it a shot and not just say, "Screw it, I'll get beat." This was removed from the equation at the last minute.

Plenty of other people didn't like the change, but just aren't speaking up because they don't want to look like complainers. And now I understand. I don't care if I look like a complainer because I wasn't even racing and I'm very happy with my car.

David Neibert
10-07-2010, 02:35 PM
"For me a car that can drive in off the street, rip off a mid 11, and drive home is WAY more interesting in my book than something that runs in the 10's or 9's and is purpose built for the track."

I can't speak for Nieberts car but I know that Blown38, Nickelman60 and Keegans car all run low 11.0's high 10.s and all are street legal and street driven.

So what is your point?

Pretty sure they will be doing it with a bar in it next year too. That doesn't make them non streetable.



Yes both my SCs are street legal and street driven (drove the 91 about 60 miles yesterday & I'm driving the 93 today). I have no plans to add a roll bar to my 91, but I'm seriously considering it for my 93.

David

1MTNCAT
10-07-2010, 02:39 PM
So because someone can run low 11's, mid 11's as a goal is pointless? That's a good one. Why stop at low 11's. Why not make your street car run something fast like 6's. I've seen people drive their car around on rainy roads and pull into the track and be like, "I want to run a 6." Then be like, "I'm bored, I'm going to the grocery store."

I never said that and as for the rest of the nonsense I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

But I do know this. My car is run on the street, it has run high 11's, I can take it anywhere and I have only made 350RWHP on the stock motor set up. And its not a race car, its full interior full weight mind you.

Goal is 10.00's or better and street legal and drivable which it will be at some point. So whats your problem. Thats my goal. ;)

old_coot
10-07-2010, 02:49 PM
Yes both my SCs are street legal and street driven (drove the 91 about 60 miles yesterday & I'm driving the 93 today). I have no plans to add a roll bar to my 91, but I'm seriously considering it for my 93.

David

From what I saw a couple years ago, (and knowing you found a big problem with the turbo since then) I'd say you ought to give that idea some real serious thought...We kind of like having you around.........Dan

Micahdogg
10-07-2010, 03:56 PM
I never said that and as for the rest of the nonsense I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

But I do know this. My car is run on the street, it has run high 11's, I can take it anywhere and I have only made 350RWHP on the stock motor set up. And its not a race car, its full interior full weight mind you.

Goal is 10.00's or better and street legal and drivable which it will be at some point. So whats your problem. Thats my goal. ;)

Just keeping you honest. Ryan said mid 11's was the goal for his street car, but you replied with, "What is your point" - because there are low 11/high 10 second cars that were street cars, like he was somehow misguided. I'm just saying, when dudes are driving 1200 miles, in the rain, and peeling off 6's in their street cars - it is hard to fathom spliting hairs over a mid 11 or low 11 goal. Especially when it's not even your car!

Roadhawg
10-07-2010, 04:11 PM
My biggest regret is telling Roadhawg that he couldn't race in the Mod classes. I like his car and wanted him to race. But I thought that the rules meant something. If I thought I could just tell him to race in that class because it is what I wanted to see, things would have been different.

I was content to race in the Bracket class, even though my car was not performing well. When they called everyone to the staging lanes, my car would not start. With all the excitement and wanting to watch my daughter race, I spaced off a simple fix. Sometimes on hard launches the wire to the start solenoid comes off. :rolleyes: