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bowez
11-16-2010, 07:18 PM
While working on Drummers car my boss brought to my attention that we have the tools to make a new oil pan.

Curious if there is a demand and what material yall would want. Mild steel will be the easiest but Stainless or Aluminum could be possible.

Right now looking at a replica or close, to it anything to change?

DLF
11-17-2010, 12:01 AM
Isn't the stock pan a structural member for the bottom of the motor?

If you went to a sheet metal pan then you'd have to have, at the very least, a solid perimeter girdle wouldn't you?

neverfastenough
11-17-2010, 12:27 AM
A replica would be retarded, we need 7qts and baffling.

rzimmerl
11-17-2010, 08:11 AM
Isn't the stock pan a structural member for the bottom of the motor?

If you went to a sheet metal pan then you'd have to have, at the very least, a solid perimeter girdle wouldn't you?

No it is not structural.

rzimmerl
11-17-2010, 08:16 AM
A replica would be retarded, we need 7qts and baffling.

Yep on that. I know someone that is very interested in an oil pan project, and Canton Racing has shown interest to produce them. By all means try and see what you can come up with, its just that it will take time to develop correctly, and fit in the space provided.

KMT
11-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Yep on that. I know someone that is very interested in an oil pan project, and Canton Racing has shown interest to produce them. By all means try and see what you can come up with, its just that it will take time to develop correctly, and fit in the space provided.


...and not add weight nor prohibit stock engine/oil cooling to the atmosphere attributes, etc, etc, etc.

Work on a windage tray instead :)

bowez
11-17-2010, 07:34 PM
If increased capacity is what is wanted I'll see what can be done. As for structure I was thinking either 7 or 10 gauge, so I doubt would be any loss of structure.

I don't really see the room for more cap without getting in the way of ground clearance or bellhousing bolts.

fturner
11-17-2010, 10:00 PM
A bit more capacity, but definitely baffles are needed to prevent starvation.... especially for the guys that like to road course or slalom their cars.

Fraser

bowez
11-17-2010, 11:19 PM
Baffles are no problem.

As for capacity when say 7qts are you including the filter, or do you want the pan itself to hold 7qts?

Mike8675309
11-18-2010, 11:09 AM
I wouldn't mind a steel pan, simply from the aspect that they tend to dent first, rather than crack first if hit with road debris. Though I would want to make sure that we don't need a cast pan for some specific reason, i.e. block stability.

A baffle for the pickup and support to clear the ARP studs would all make it a good option for someone.

bowez
11-18-2010, 08:54 PM
I'm looking only at sheet stock, cast is not even an option. Current goal is for it to a single piece which will be bent and welded. Our CNC programmers are busy for the rest of the year, so don't expect any real progress on this for a couple months.

What is the issue with ARP studs?

Mike8675309
11-19-2010, 10:45 AM
What is the issue with ARP studs?

The forward part of the stock pan doesn't clear the stock length ARP studs on the #1 main journal. Typically you have to cut the stud close to flush with the nut to clear.

Hock
11-21-2010, 01:09 AM
The forward part of the stock pan doesn't clear the stock length ARP studs on the #1 main journal. Typically you have to cut the stud close to flush with the nut to clear.

Correct. I did not know this when I first installed them and had to cut them on an assembled engine. Thank God for heavy duty trash bags.

bowez
11-21-2010, 10:33 AM
Can some one take measurements for the studs and pickup so I can get a rough print done. Figure be best to take measurements off the rear of the block.
I have a crank and pan but no block so if anyone has access to a open block that would be helpful.

XR7 Dave
11-21-2010, 11:03 AM
I will get you measurements. There is just enough clearance to the K-member to fit the ARP studs without trimming and a sheetmetal pan.

I have also built a sheetmetal pan that fit just fine and holds over 7 quarts in the pan at a lower level than stock.

A good pan design incorporates a kickout pouch to catch oil as it slings off the crank, baffling to reduce sloshing, and a windage tray to separate the crank from the oil itself.

Here is a good example:

http://static.atechmotorsports.com/global/images/prod/large/mil-31167_af.jpg

Here is another:

http://static.atechmotorsports.com/global/images/prod/large/mil-31514.jpg

These pans retail around $350-400 and I would be happy to pay that kind of price for a pan that incorporates these features.

I do think that a new pickup would be required to be effective though because the path the stock pickup takes interferes with proper baffling and windage tray action.

CMac89
11-21-2010, 11:10 AM
They also need screens across the whole length of the pan. The capillary action that the screen provides reduces the amount of oil that splashes back on the crank.

http://www.stefs.com/products/productimages/1495.jpg

XxSlowpokexX
11-21-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm all about the oil pan. Oil pans on all block are structual to some extent. Perhaps more with the 3.8? Regardles you can definitetly stiffin up a steel pan to be even better than the stock cast aluminum. And dont let the pickup stop a good design. stock one can be modded

bowez
11-21-2010, 05:07 PM
Dave, I nor the company I work for are in no way near experts in this area, but since my boss offered the use of our CNC plasma cutter and 100-ton brake press I will gladly take him up on it.

Price is unknown I asked my boss and won't have that for awhile either, after the drawings are done. I hope to keep them between $200-300 plus S/H--but there are a lot of variables there, most of which I have little influence on. Company time and tools Company gets to set price.

Since my car is lowered 1.5" I'll see how much clearance there actually is.

Location of the stock pick up and size will greatly help with getting the baffles right.

So what does everyone want 10gague or 7gauge, or the more standard 16?

XR7 Dave
11-21-2010, 09:22 PM
I didn't suggest making the pan any deeper than the stock one. I'm not big on having the pan hang below the stock K-member because lowered cars would be smacking it which is not good. My 7+ quart pan did not hang below the K member. There's a picture of it on here somewhere.

My comments about the stock pickup is not anything meant to complicate things, I just said that the way the stock pickup drops down at an angle, it gets in the way of a windage tray and baffling. Most HP oil pans have a matching oil pickup so that's not out of the ordinary there.

16ga is fine. The pan is not structural to the block. The cast aluminum design was meant to reduce noise is all.

kpoindex08
01-02-2011, 02:08 PM
any up dates on this?

bowez
01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
Waiting on time at work, might know more in the coming weeks. Since the end of the year push is over.

bowez
01-24-2011, 08:38 PM
Have some of the drawings and design done.

I can get a bit more capacity IF yall are willing to make changing the starter more fun (even more if want to work on your tranny cooler lines).

The biggest restriction on pan capacity is the exhaust.

Current design has pan being made out of 14g with 1/4" for the machined areas and they will be surfaced flat, and baffles in it too, and am trying to get and extra 1/4" of depth for mains 1 and 2 (2 mainly).

XR7 Dave
01-24-2011, 08:58 PM
Have some of the drawings and design done.

I can get a bit more capacity IF yall are willing to make changing the starter more fun (even more if want to work on your tranny cooler lines).

The biggest restriction on pan capacity is the exhaust.

Current design has pan being made out of 14g with 1/4" for the machined areas and they will be surfaced flat, and baffles in it too, and am trying to get and extra 1/4" of depth for mains 1 and 2 (2 mainly).

Actually, #2 is fine, it's the #1 main cap that needs more clearance.

bowez
01-24-2011, 09:36 PM
Ok that makes it easier, finally something easy on this thing.

bowez
02-10-2011, 08:34 PM
Spent most of the day bashing my head up against this thing today, long slow day.

I've come up with a couple of options.
1) Basic redesign of pan, no kick outs but with baffles and holds 6qts.
2) Sump outrigger on drivers side for a total of 7qts (will interfere with removal of steering rack)

3) Requires some modification to cars with Autos and might make starter removal harder but get a total of 8+qts.

All should have room for cap studs.

Hope to get started on some actual prototyping soon.

seawalkersee
02-10-2011, 10:48 PM
Coset/?

SWS

bowez
02-10-2011, 10:55 PM
Still TBD, though can say each pan is going to need a 4x4 sheet of 14g plus the 1/4" for the machined holes.

Can possibly get them galvanized too, if that is wanted.

bowez
02-11-2011, 10:24 AM
I know depending upon cost, but curious which concept has more interest.

Note: Per Dave sump bulge/kickout will be split on both sides for the 7qt and should not interfere with the starter or auto trannies.

Considering what is involved the last two should not have much price difference if any. Many curious if people are willing to deal with the problems that will come with such a big pan.

XR7 Dave
02-11-2011, 10:29 AM
I think 7 qt is all that is needed. For drag racing and dyno only, that would make it possible to run 6 qts and lower the level some. I think this is awesome.

Mike8675309
02-11-2011, 10:29 AM
Can possibly get them galvanized too, if that is wanted.

I would think getting a steel tank plated with Zinc Dichromate after all the fitment and any welding is done would be a better idea than using galvanized steel. A standard mild steel should be just fine, make it easy for someone to weld on any additional bungs (temp, level, return). Then the can have it plated when they are all done.

bowez
02-11-2011, 11:35 AM
Mike, that was the plan, but I won't contact the plater until after the 1st prototype.

kpoindex08
03-12-2011, 05:15 PM
up dates on this fine product?

XxSlowpokexX
03-12-2011, 09:45 PM
I didn't suggest making the pan any deeper than the stock one. I'm not big on having the pan hang below the stock K-member because lowered cars would be smacking it which is not good. My 7+ quart pan did not hang below the K member. There's a picture of it on here somewhere.

My comments about the stock pickup is not anything meant to complicate things, I just said that the way the stock pickup drops down at an angle, it gets in the way of a windage tray and baffling. Most HP oil pans have a matching oil pickup so that's not out of the ordinary there.

16ga is fine. The pan is not structural to the block. The cast aluminum design was meant to reduce noise is all.

Wasnt there a discussion not to long ago about the pan being structural to the block?

The pan will add some level of structural integrity to the engine regardless of being designed specifically to or not

bowez
03-12-2011, 10:42 PM
Update: I've pigeonholed it until have my transmission installed.

bowez
07-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Tranny is done but started have new job now (my former boss has no problem making them though).

I am willing to continue working on it but no promise on time frame. If someone wants to take over the work contact me if you want what I already have completed.

If had some firm interest I could push it forward some but will say initial run will have to be a minimum of 5units. Believe price will be in around $250 plus plating; well that's my target but don't know exactly how much I will be charged until finish all the drawings.

XR7 Dave
07-24-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm not sure I totally understand your statements. Are you looking for someone to take over the drawings and work with the manufacturer directly to get this project completed? Or are you considering making this a 3-way project with you providing the drawings but someone else working with the manufacturer? I'd prefer to keep things simple but we also need to add some urgency to the program. 5 units is no problem and the price is not an issue. The emphasis needs to be on getting the project completed, even if it costs more initially.

I need to emphasize that this is a product for which there is an immediate demand/need. We can't wait until February to find out that it isn't going to work out and then be stuck looking for another supplier. If we can have reasonable assurance that we can have oil pans in the hands of the end users in February I'm fine with that, but if we wait that long and then find out it isn't going to happen, then that would be very disappointing.

Is there anything I can do to expedite the process?

bowez
07-24-2011, 01:46 PM
I am open to someone acquiring my drawings if they want to hurry it up, but I will start working on it this week.

I will admit this has not been a high priority since I don't have a need for one. This was started only to serve the community.

If anyone besides Dave has input please give it.

Dave you have a PM.

bowez
07-24-2011, 09:36 PM
Is there any interest in retaining the level sensor?

Mike8675309
07-24-2011, 10:12 PM
Is there any interest in retaining the level sensor?

yeah, would like to retain it personally.

BLOWN38
07-24-2011, 10:26 PM
I don't need an oil level sensor. It always works for me when I go around an on ramp and the pressure drops, time to add oil.;) But thats in the 5.0 beater that leaks oil everywhere.

Roadhawg
07-24-2011, 10:39 PM
Is there any interest in retaining the level sensor?

Just offer a simple performance oil pan.
SC people have a hard time keeping their eye on the ball and most ideas for new products get derailed with to many demands to retain the stock aspect on a performance part. If they have any skills sets they can add the oil level sensor themselves.

Kurt K
07-25-2011, 01:05 AM
If plating is part of the process to build the pan, then I think provisions for the oil level sensor should be included, as it will be harder to add it after the fact if plating has to be dealt with.

I would like to retain the sensor.

Nando559
07-25-2011, 01:58 AM
If the sensor is just for the VMM then itz either way for me. I might remove mine to add a double din tv anyways! :cool:

-Fernando

XR7 Dave
07-25-2011, 08:24 AM
Then lets not plate the pan. I do not want a sensor. I am not just buying one pan either, I plan to purchase many of them and do not want a sensor in the pans for the motors I build.

SCrazy
07-25-2011, 10:04 AM
I would definately be in for this as well but I really wouldn't need the level sensor.

XR7 Dave
07-25-2011, 10:24 AM
rant on/

I think the oil level sensor is an absurd addition to a high performance oil pan. No aftermarket oil pan of any repute has such a device. Anyone interested in a baffled 7 qt pan should have the personal responsibility to check their oil and not rely on a sensor that has a 50% (estimated) chance of being faulty after 20 years of service.

Of the few SC's (89-93 only) that have functional VMM's, how many would really want or need a high performance oil pan? If you really need one, then install the fitting. It's not difficult to remove plating from a flat surface.

I do not think that everyone should be forced to pay for an accessory device just because a few people want it. You probably won't see them posting here, but the people who NEED a better oil pan will be more likely asking me to weld the fitting closed than asking for the sensor to be installed.

/rant off :o

DLF
07-25-2011, 10:59 AM
No aftermarket oil pan of any repute has such a device.

Not entirely accurate.... :cool:

Most Canton (a reputible brand, I'd say) Ford pans have provisions for the stock sensors and come with plugs for those who don't wish to install them.

rzimmerl
07-25-2011, 11:14 AM
I'd be interested in a pan. Sensor not needed, I rely more on the dipstick then anything else. An easy jumper wire will keep the VMM from coming on.

.......seem to remember similar situation on the coolant tanks:rolleyes::o

Toms-SC
07-25-2011, 11:59 AM
.......seem to remember similar situation on the coolant tanks:rolleyes::o

:o Those fickle SC'ers

Roadhawg
07-25-2011, 12:05 PM
Not entirely accurate.... :cool:

Most Canton (a reputible brand, I'd say) Ford pans have provisions for the stock sensors and come with plugs for those who don't wish to install them.

Not entirely accurate...

Canton list those as a 1/2" NPT Temperature Bung, you will be hard pressed to find an oil temp sensor on a Ford, with the exception of a diesel.

Kurt K
07-25-2011, 12:15 PM
rant on/

I think the oil level sensor is an absurd addition to a high performance oil pan. No aftermarket oil pan of any repute has such a device. Anyone interested in a baffled 7 qt pan should have the personal responsibility to check their oil and not rely on a sensor that has a 50% (estimated) chance of being faulty after 20 years of service.

Of the few SC's (89-93 only) that have functional VMM's, how many would really want or need a high performance oil pan? If you really need one, then install the fitting. It's not difficult to remove plating from a flat surface.

I do not think that everyone should be forced to pay for an accessory device just because a few people want it. You probably won't see them posting here, but the people who NEED a better oil pan will be more likely asking me to weld the fitting closed than asking for the sensor to be installed.

/rant off :o
Did you forget your caffeine this morning? I don't NEED the sensor, but the question was asked and I chimed in. Wasn't the question asked, so it could be discussed?

XxSlowpokexX
07-25-2011, 01:48 PM
A bung for oil drainage igfyou had a turbo would be nice though and can always be plugged

Mike8675309
07-25-2011, 02:57 PM
Considering a market where you have at one extreme James Carowner that street drives his car and recently cracked his oil pan due to worn motor mounts. he is going to look for a low budget replacement that is simply a swap in piece. Something he would wish he could pick up from Autozone or Napa.
At the other extreme you have Josiah RaceDriver who likes to run his car on a track, and at times on the street and is looking for a oil pan that reduces windage, and keeps the pickup in oil through various g-force turns or stop and goes.

Serving both is a challenge since #1 both ends of the spectrum are SC owners who are notoriously cheep. #2 - both ends have different needs.

One consideration you can make is that replacing the oil pan is not a simple task, and in most cases will require someone that is either a professional hired to do the work, or an motivated do-it-yourselfer.

Given that market, I would suggest looking to see if is possible to have a single design with two targets. A design that meets Jame's needs, and gets you 80 or 90% of Josiah's needs might be the win. Allowing you to leverage the work for one, perhaps even getting that one to market sooner, with room to eventually meet the needs of the whole market and not just one end of the extremes. If not possible, then you'll have to pick one. Likely higher margins with the Josiah racers, but higher volume with the James car owners.

you probably get a better deal if you just plate all of them. As was stated, if work needs to be done on the pan, the plating can be ground off and it later re-plated.

XxSlowpokexX
07-25-2011, 03:20 PM
Being we have no other option than stock.

ANYTHING with more volume that can reduce oil starvation is good in my book..Keeping oil off the crank is icing on the cake...Then what about the pickup?

Roadhawg
07-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Considering a market where you have at one extreme James Carowner that street drives his car and recently cracked his oil pan due to worn motor mounts. he is going to look for a low budget replacement that is simply a swap in piece.

That would be a oil pan from your local auto recycler.

bowez
07-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Adding the bung isn't the problem it the price of the tap.

Since the prototype will not have one per the future recipient, I can easily have two options (either with or without). Let me make clear the first run with the sensor would have to cover the cost of the tap.

On a different note, remain Metric or SAE oil plug?

My hope is that this pan will be able to deal with worn mounts better than the cast pan. Though probably a moot point for those that buy it.

BLOWN38
07-25-2011, 04:30 PM
I would like to retain the stock drain plug, but its whatever for me either way.

XR7 Dave
07-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Did you forget your caffeine this morning? I don't NEED the sensor, but the question was asked and I chimed in. Wasn't the question asked, so it could be discussed?

Actually, I probably had a little too much coffee. :rolleyes: I am just saying that I think it's a big inconvenience to those who don't need or want the sensor. What are we supposed to fill the hole with? If you have a 95 SC they don't come with it at all either. I guess if the pan was made with a plug in it then it wouldn't matter other than the cost difference. I still don't really see the point of having the sensor in a high performance application.

The plug itself doesn't matter as long as the pan comes with one so we don't have to source plugs. I'd prefer not to have one that incorporates a copper gasket ring though since those are notorious for leaking. The stock plug is kind of nice because some of them have a rubber seal built into the washer that seals nicely without marring anything. And some people may not have SAE wrenches. :p J/K

DLF
07-25-2011, 06:23 PM
Not entirely accurate...

Canton list those as a 1/2" NPT Temperature Bung, you will be hard pressed to find an oil temp sensor on a Ford, with the exception of a diesel.

Well, I've been wrong before, and probably will be again...... :o

seawalkersee
07-26-2011, 07:17 PM
I don't care much one way or the other about the sensor, I just want one that will be big enough to clear the windage tray/girtle.

SWS

fturner
08-15-2011, 04:13 PM
I'm in for a fully baffled pan that can support road course racing.... sensor is of no value to me so it don't matter.

Fraser

bowez
08-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Had to redo my drawings, making progress. Slow going with 68hr weeks at work.

On the Level Sensor, I've decided to put a solid slug/bung in position so that if the sensor is wanted can be drilled and tapped; if not its there for any other thing to be drilled and tapped. I'll either provide the pan with the factory setup or the solid bung untouched for you to leave alone or add your own fitting.

fturner
08-15-2011, 07:06 PM
Had to redo my drawings, making progress. Slow going with 68hr weeks at work.

On the Level Sensor, I've decided to put a solid slug/bung in position so that if the sensor is wanted can be drilled and tapped; if not its there for any other thing to be drilled and tapped. I'll either provide the pan with the factory setup or the solid bung untouched for you to leave alone or add your own fitting.

That sounds like a good compromise.

Fraser

XxSlowpokexX
08-15-2011, 09:51 PM
Id seriously consider adding a bung for those with turbos.

David Neibert
08-19-2011, 02:10 PM
I would definately be in for this as well but I really wouldn't need the level sensor.

Same here. I mainly concerned with having a good machined surface on mating flange to the block and timing cover. If the flange is stamped sheet metal, like the canton pans posted earlier in this thread..I'm not interested.

David

bowez
08-19-2011, 08:13 PM
Plan is for it to be a welded design form 14gauge sheet stock. Depending how prototype comes out--when we get to that stage--arrangements can be made to mill flange but as of now its not in the plan. I believe there is space for the flange to possibly be 10 or 7 gauge, maybe even 1/4, if it has to be.

fturner
08-24-2011, 11:50 AM
Same here. I mainly concerned with having a good machined surface on mating flange to the block and timing cover. If the flange is stamped sheet metal, like the canton pans posted earlier in this thread..I'm not interested.

David

Out of curiosity, whats the concern if the flange is shamped? Its not like its a structural thing. We also use RTV sealant, not a gasket unlike the crappy tstat housing. There's not a lot of torque used on the bolts etc either.... at least there shouldn't be ;).

Fraser

fturner
09-01-2011, 08:55 AM
Just wondering whats the status on this.... don't mean to be pushy, but this is something I am going to need on my setup.

Fraser

David Neibert
09-01-2011, 12:52 PM
Out of curiosity, whats the concern if the flange is shamped? Its not like its a structural thing. We also use RTV sealant, not a gasket unlike the crappy tstat housing. There's not a lot of torque used on the bolts etc either.... at least there shouldn't be ;).

Fraser

Fraser,

It's from my experince using a Canton 7 qt pan with a stamped sheetmetal flange on my Dart block 347. Stamped steel doesn't seal as well as a 1/4" thick machined flange will, even with a gasket. On curved surfaces it really sucks.

I also doubt you will get a good seal on the block using only RTV with a sheet metal flange. For those of us operating with a closed PCV system, the crank case pressure under boost, is going to try to push the rear main seal out and cause oil leaks if you don't have a good sealing surface.

David

rzimmerl
09-01-2011, 01:09 PM
For those of us operating with a closed PVC system, the crank case pressure under boost, is going to try to push the rear main seal out and cause oil leaks if you don't have a good sealing surface.

David

That could be subject to change if we decide to delete the PCV system and go to a breather type system with the new Canton valve covers I've been working on.

David Neibert
09-01-2011, 04:20 PM
I had something in mind that was constructed more like this Gt500 pan.

David

rzimmerl
09-02-2011, 09:26 AM
I had something in mind that was constructed more like this Gt500 pan.

David

Ditto, thats a nice looking pan.

XxSlowpokexX
09-02-2011, 11:59 PM
factory 5.0 pans have rails on either side to prevent ruining the pan due to overtorquing it. That in combination with the rubber gasket swith metal rings..They have never leakes on me..Ever.

Id perfer a sheetmetal pan with stiffing type rails such as the factory 5.0 pan. Its an ideal situationl

bowez
09-03-2011, 07:53 AM
I've run into a problem, just a delay nothing major. Backward engineering isn't easy.

Space in any/every direction is limited, but if twisting is an issue after the prototype is produced and tested I will address it.

David Neibert
09-03-2011, 09:48 AM
factory 5.0 pans have rails on either side to prevent ruining the pan due to overtorquing it. That in combination with the rubber gasket swith metal rings..They have never leakes on me..Ever.

Id perfer a sheetmetal pan with stiffing type rails such as the factory 5.0 pan. Its an ideal situationl

Damon,

That style pan is designed for use with a gasket, and we don't have one.

David

seawalkersee
09-03-2011, 04:05 PM
Two things: I started using a different style of RTV called "The Right Stuff" which actually feels like rubber when it is cured. I have used it on some different things and one of the race guys I hang out with uses it on all of his high winding race cars.

I think Kevin Leitem has found the limit of whatever year block he had ('cause he split it). Is it possible to have the thicker ridges like shown with a thicker plate on the front and rear that will help seal and help stiffen the block? Is that even pheasable?

SWS

pro street rich
09-03-2011, 06:26 PM
I think Kevin Leitem has found the limit of whatever year block he had ('cause he split it). Is it possible to have the thicker ridges like shown with a thicker plate on the front and rear that will help seal and help stiffen the block? Is that even pheasable?

SWS[/QUOTE]

You have to remember that there is not a lot of room between the stock oil pan and the "K" member already...
Now on another note, I have used both types of pans with some mixed results. I have also made gaskets before from sheet stock. This is one way around the flat style..
There is also a lot of different style's of scavage systems that you can put on your engine. If you are worried about blow by then this is a simple way to clean out the pressure in the crankcase. This is something that will also help you run better, rather than blowing seals and whatever else you have.
Now there is one more idea you can try. You could put a peice of alumium along side the pan with holes drilled to match. This would do two things. First it would allow you to tighting the bolts tighter without really doing that. By putting the pressure over a much larger area you will seal better and get an added bonus. This would also add some meet to the block rails. Not sure how much that this would help, but it is worth the try.......Rich

seawalkersee
09-04-2011, 11:12 AM
I know there is little room, but you can always shorten the sides of the pan depending on how thick the rails may be. I will probably not be anywhere near the rpm level that is a MUST for a stiff pan, but I think it would be nice insurance for a hard 1-2 drive if something would let go.

SWS

XxSlowpokexX
09-04-2011, 10:48 PM
David..I know...But using a sheet metal pan the stiffining rails would help with the pan distortion

XR7 Dave
12-10-2011, 09:45 AM
I've run into a problem, just a delay nothing major. Backward engineering isn't easy.

Space in any/every direction is limited, but if twisting is an issue after the prototype is produced and tested I will address it.

Is this oil pan ever going to happen? I seriously need to know because if it isn't I'm going to have one made. I have 3 months of winter ahead of me and am not willing/able to wait longer than that. If I'm going to have Stef's make a pan within that timeframe, I need to get an order in now. Thanks.

bowez
12-10-2011, 10:34 AM
Work has been horrible 68hrs+ a week I've had no time to work on it as of late.

In the past week we are down to 40hrs and been needing to catch up with things around the house.

Dave I would suggest you not plan on mine (figuring this down time not to be too long, since seem to be a supplier induced issue), in your time frame.

I do plan on trying to start on it again come Monday. If all goes perfectly I could be done in the 3 months but I'd rather you serve your customer first.

bowez
06-08-2012, 07:48 PM
Ok looks like we aren't ever going to get a break at work. If anyone is interested in giving me a hand finishing the drawings let me know. More than trying to make any money of this I would like to get this made to actually serve the community.

Besides work the other big issue is my CAD skills are no where near what they were 10yrs ago.

Hock
06-09-2012, 06:29 PM
Ok looks like we aren't ever going to get a break at work. If anyone is interested in giving me a hand finishing the drawings let me know. More than trying to make any money of this I would like to get this made to actually serve the community.

Besides work the other big issue is my CAD skills are no where near what they were 10yrs ago.

I can get a model and the appropriate drawings done for this if I can get the sketches of what we would like done. I don't think it would take me much time at all to do it.

rlittlep
06-11-2012, 06:38 PM
I'm on the tail end of this thread,{due to my Mom's illness/death} I would be "in" for a pan for myself.
Bob

Hock
06-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Just to give an update, I received mostly everything I need from bowez to design this oil pan. There is still some info I need to hear back on from him but other than that I think this should be back on track. I'm not sure how long this will take me as I will be doing it all in my free time but I will work as quickly as possible to get this done.

Hock
06-21-2012, 07:12 AM
Here's some pictures of where I am at with the model of the oil pan. One thing worth noting with this is that I decided to make mounting flange 3/16 thick (this can be increased) to better resemble the factory cast piece and ensure that we will continue not to need an oil pan gasket. I still have a few things left to do before I can send it back to bowez but as you all can see its getting there in a short time.

BLOWN38
06-21-2012, 10:00 AM
Keep up the good work. A thicker flange would be better.

Hock
06-21-2012, 10:01 AM
Keep up the good work. A thicker flange would be better.

Whats the factory pan flange thickness?

neverfastenough
06-21-2012, 10:29 AM
I know it looks nicer, but I suggest removing some of the fillets in your drawing. IF someone like canton is going to build that, and you converted it to sheet in the program your using, it would be all goofed up from the fillet radius used. They will be butting up flat peices of aluminum. SW and Inventor both have stuff for welds if you just want to throw that in there instead of fillets. Of course the fillets could be left on pieces the fabricator may bend to shape.

BLOWN38
06-21-2012, 10:52 AM
Stock flange is .250". But thats cast.

Toms-SC
06-21-2012, 12:03 PM
Looks pretty.

Mike8675309
06-21-2012, 12:20 PM
when looking at the flange thickness, work with someone who understands what it takes to make that surface flat. There may be a minimum thickness you should use to ensure the proper machining can be done to keep it flat.

Hock
06-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Here it is without all the fillets in place. I'm not planing on doing anything with the welding features on SW because I don't know how their engineers determine where to place the welds so I will leave it up to them. Other than that the only difference so far is the flange thickness is now 1/4 instead of 3/16.

XxSlowpokexX
06-22-2012, 11:19 AM
I know it looks nicer, but I suggest removing some of the fillets in your drawing. IF someone like canton is going to build that, and you converted it to sheet in the program your using, it would be all goofed up from the fillet radius used. They will be butting up flat peices of aluminum. SW and Inventor both have stuff for welds if you just want to throw that in there instead of fillets. Of course the fillets could be left on pieces the fabricator may bend to shape.

In reality the dimentions are all a fabricator is going to need. They will build it in a way thats most efficient for them. All of teh important stuff is whats inside anyways. Id be interested in 1 or 2 when done of course:O)

bowez
06-22-2012, 06:51 PM
How important is the .250 thick flange, I may be wrong but fill .070 is thick enough plus will take away from the capacity? I speced the depth to be real close to the K-member and not sure if will clear with a .250 flange.

Hock
06-22-2012, 07:04 PM
How important is the .250 thick flange, I may be wrong but fill .070 is thick enough plus will take away from the capacity? I speced the depth to be real close to the K-member and not sure if will clear with a .250 flange.

The way I designed the flange clearance is accounted for. Basically, the sheet metal will "slip" inside the flange then be welded to it. That will provide for a better seal. If you go with a sheet flange then we will need a gasket which is also going to cause clearance issues.

SCDan35thANV
11-21-2012, 08:56 PM
Any update on this?

Hock
11-21-2012, 08:59 PM
Any update on this?

The 3D model is all but done. I'm waiting on one dimesion then I can put the finishing touches on it and send it back to bowez.

SCDan35thANV
11-22-2012, 02:39 PM
Sweet thanks.

90sc35thann
11-24-2012, 08:16 PM
No it is not structural.

Yes it is. They used webbed aluminum to add strength as well as set up the pan to be bolted to the bell housing for additional support.

Hock
11-24-2012, 09:04 PM
Yes it is. They used webbed aluminum to add strength as well as set up the pan to be bolted to the bell housing for additional support.

The webbing was to strengthen the casting because thin aluminum castings are inherently weak. The pan itself is not needed as a structural member of the engine or as support for the trans. I would also be willing to bet that most of us that have had the engine or trans out have not replaced the lower bell housing bolts where they go through the oil pan.

CMac89
11-24-2012, 09:25 PM
Try asking Kevin how well that stock pan braces the block.

rzimmerl
11-24-2012, 09:32 PM
Yes it is. They used webbed aluminum to add strength as well as set up the pan to be bolted to the bell housing for additional support.

Explain how the oil pan is structural to the block? Especially when it uses tiny M6 fasteners for attachment. As mentioned those webs on the pan are for its structural integrity.

XR7 Dave
11-24-2012, 10:03 PM
As mentioned in a previous post, the webbed design of the pan and bolting it to the bellhousing is a function of reduction in NVH. I didn't make that up, it's in Ford literature.

90sc35thann
11-25-2012, 09:16 AM
As mentioned in a previous post, the webbed design of the pan and bolting it to the bellhousing is a function of reduction in NVH. I didn't make that up, it's in Ford literature.

Aluminum is extremely noise conductive. That doesn't make sense if the purpose was to reduce NVH then why use an aluminum pan????

rzimmerl
11-25-2012, 10:53 AM
Ford still uses cast aluminum oil pans to this day...

Mike8675309
11-25-2012, 12:11 PM
Aluminum is extremely noise conductive. That doesn't make sense if the purpose was to reduce NVH then why use an aluminum pan????

NVH:
Noise
Vibration
Harshness

Noise can usually be resolved through dampening. Vibration and Harshness are more complicated and often can be resolved through careful selection of materials so that harmonics are dampened rather than enhanced. One thing you can be sure. If Ford chose a material, they did it for a very specific reason. That reason may not align with what we are trying to do with the cars, but Ford engineers were not building these cars for the the enthusiast that might mess with them 20 years down the road.

bowez
11-25-2012, 06:26 PM
Let me get off my butt and get Hock those measurements. We've slowed down at work so should have some time to get back to this now.

SCDan35thANV
05-10-2013, 05:20 PM
Was wondering if you and Hock are still working on this as well?

bowez
05-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Short answer yes.

Hock sent me the completed model, needs a few updates to it before take over to the fabricators.

I've been dealing with things at home an haven't had time to address issues with Hock. Nothing major just I need to take some measurements and get them to him.

Hock
05-10-2013, 08:56 PM
Short answer yes.

Hock sent me the completed model, needs a few updates to it before take over to the fabricators.

I've been dealing with things at home an haven't had time to address issues with Hock. Nothing major just I need to take some measurements and get them to him.

Just let me know when you get it all. I'm going to be swamped with college classes and working full time this summer but I will have time somewhere in there.

SCDan35thANV
05-11-2013, 01:12 PM
Sounds good guys!

XxSlowpokexX
05-11-2013, 01:28 PM
Intersting this popped back up. My buddy runs in an 8.50 class with his BBC. He recently picked up one of my other buddies pro mod engine also a BBC. To have it fit in his Nova he needed to swap oil pans. The on ein the pro mod was all out. The one to fit the Nova Chasis was a typical deep sump Moroso. No crank scrapers with minimal baffleling. We are talking a 574 CID 15:1 compression angine. Make a lost story short. One day to teh track ended in a cracked crank and needing two rods. This is a 7000rpm + big block. For those of us runnin higher HP an dRPMS the crank slapping into an oil bath isnt a great idea. A good pan would be a wonderful idea if it comes through and teh features it has

SCTBIRD1173
05-16-2013, 09:55 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to Bowez and Hock for working on this. Even though I may not wind up needing one I do have plans to build a 425ish whp engine for my car sometime in the future and if money is available I'll pick one of these up.

Thanks again guys for helping out the SC community!

XR7 Dave
05-16-2013, 10:17 AM
Intersting this popped back up. My buddy runs in an 8.50 class with his BBC. He recently picked up one of my other buddies pro mod engine also a BBC. To have it fit in his Nova he needed to swap oil pans. The on ein the pro mod was all out. The one to fit the Nova Chasis was a typical deep sump Moroso. No crank scrapers with minimal baffleling. We are talking a 574 CID 15:1 compression angine. Make a lost story short. One day to teh track ended in a cracked crank and needing two rods. This is a 7000rpm + big block. For those of us runnin higher HP an dRPMS the crank slapping into an oil bath isnt a great idea. A good pan would be a wonderful idea if it comes through and teh features it has

Agreed. Currently our only option for a proper racing oil pan is $795 so I would love to see a less expensive option.

David Neibert
05-16-2013, 10:21 AM
Agreed. Currently our only option for a proper racing oil pan is $795 so I would love to see a less expensive option.

David

I didn't know we had any options other than cutting up a stock pan. What's the story on the $795 pan ?

David

XR7 Dave
05-16-2013, 04:48 PM
David

I didn't know we had any options other than cutting up a stock pan. What's the story on the $795 pan ?

David

This one. It's all custom fab in aluminum.

http://www.tbu.cx/phpBB/download/file.php?id=414

http://www.tbu.cx/phpBB/download/file.php?id=413

Toms-SC
05-16-2013, 05:15 PM
Are those the new cast cylinder heads for the 3.8 sitting beside it?!!! :confused:

David Neibert
05-16-2013, 05:20 PM
I thought that pan was made for the 4.5 SVO :o

David

XR7 Dave
05-16-2013, 10:30 PM
I thought that pan was made for the 4.5 SVO :o

David

It fits both.

SCDan35thANV
05-17-2013, 03:05 AM
Sweet Pan Dave but also curious about those heads sitting there..:rolleyes:

XR7 Dave
05-17-2013, 08:25 AM
Sweet Pan Dave but also curious about those heads sitting there..:rolleyes:

I don't see any heads. :confused:

XxSlowpokexX
05-17-2013, 09:58 PM
I dont see no pan!

Toms-SC
05-22-2013, 11:19 AM
Re-hosted...

http://i.imgur.com/9ttH9.jpg

Coles notes: This was a one off pan done for my project which just so happens to work with a 3.8.

XxSlowpokexX
05-23-2013, 01:25 PM
Oh who made that. Does it clear the crossmember...And it will work with my van motor? And can I have one pretty please?

BLOWN38
05-23-2013, 02:16 PM
Oh who made that. Does it clear the crossmember...And it will work with my van motor? And can I have one pretty please?

You can has one if you call Stef's.

XxSlowpokexX
05-23-2013, 02:41 PM
That and a pickup? Tom was this specifically made for you? Ill pick one up if I know its going to fit our car. Let me know and thanks

THEN Ill call Stefs!

Toms-SC
05-23-2013, 04:05 PM
..........

Flex
05-23-2013, 04:41 PM
How much was it? Did it come with the pick up?

XR7 Dave
05-23-2013, 04:56 PM
That and a pickup? Tom was this specifically made for you? Ill pick one up if I know its going to fit our car. Let me know and thanks

THEN Ill call Stefs!

It has been fit to a stock crossmember, but it has not yet been installed in a stock SC. So I won't guarantee fitment until that has been done.

As for calling Stef's, not sure if that would do you much good because it was custom designed for SuperCoupes Unlimited. I know what that one cost, but after final fitting is done and verified, I will inquire about a volume purchase to hopefully reduce end cost.

Yes, it requires and includes a custom pickup. It requires a custom dipstick too, but that's not included.

Sorry for derailing this post, that was not my intent. A more affordable oil pan option would be HUGELY attractive, so let's keep the pressure on guys!

Keep working on it.

Flex
05-23-2013, 05:24 PM
David,

You don't want to say what this one cost? Is an aluminum alternative imminent? Thanks.

XxSlowpokexX
05-23-2013, 09:20 PM
Im not interested in cutting into anyones deal. Id just like to purchase one. So whenever one may be available. Just keep me in the loop

bowez
05-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Another pan option doesn't bother me in the least.

If Dave remembers I told him I hoped my design's target price I would guess the one he had made to be around $4-500. Would be my guesstimate.

Hopefully can get those last measurements done and to Hock this weekend.

Hock
05-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Hopefully can get those last measurements done and to Hock this weekend.

This weekend would be perfect, its 3 days long and I have a "light" school work load. Just message me on here when you send it just in case it ends up in the spam box.

Flex
05-24-2013, 05:07 PM
Will it be a swanky aluminum pan like the one pictured?

SCDan35thANV
05-24-2013, 05:22 PM
Agreed. Currently our only option for a proper racing oil pan is $795 so I would love to see a less expensive option.

Ya that is a sweet pan but ya a cheaper option would sure be nice. Can't wait to see the final product Hock/Bowez

Flex
05-24-2013, 05:48 PM
Another pan option doesn't bother me in the least.

If Dave remembers I told him I hoped my design's target price I would guess the one he had made to be around $4-500. Would be my guesstimate.

Hopefully can get those last measurements done and to Hock this weekend.

Care to share that target price?

XxSlowpokexX
05-24-2013, 06:43 PM
Ill buy one of each btw:O)

Flex
05-24-2013, 07:05 PM
One of each?

BLOWN38
05-24-2013, 07:48 PM
Damon collects things.;)

bowez
05-24-2013, 09:16 PM
The goal is to have it in the $2-300 range whether I can get it there will remain to be seen--will be up to what the fabricators charge. Let me emphasize this is a target price an nothing more.

No it will not be aluminum, the object has always been to make a sheet steel pan that can be more easily repaired and hopefully more forgiving to worn motor mounts. To me, girdle clearance and extra capacity were secondary objectives.

XR7 Dave
05-24-2013, 10:31 PM
David,

You don't want to say what this one cost? Is an aluminum alternative imminent? Thanks.

List price on the aluminum pan is $799 as listed in a previous post. After fitting is complete and verified, I'm going to try to secure better pricing, but that is the going rate for a completely custom pan. This one cost more than some because:


it is comprised of many pieces and multiple complex angles.
it includes a windage screen.
it includes a trap door baffle in the sump.
it includes a custom fit pickup tube (not pictured) which is required to clear the baffling.

XxSlowpokexX
05-24-2013, 11:57 PM
One of each?

Well I want a real good one for the turbo motor..and a nice one for the twin screw motor

XxSlowpokexX
05-24-2013, 11:57 PM
Damon collects things.;)

These I will actually use lol

Flex
05-25-2013, 12:16 AM
List price on the aluminum pan is $799 as listed in a previous post. After fitting is complete and verified, I'm going to try to secure better pricing, but that is the going rate for a completely custom pan. This one cost more than some because:


it is comprised of many pieces and multiple complex angles.
it includes a windage screen.
it includes a trap door baffle in the sump.
it includes a custom fit pickup tube (not pictured) which is required to clear the baffling.


Not shocked by any means. It is very nicely done. Does it represent a horsepower advantage through reduced windage and better scraping.

Toms-SC
05-25-2013, 02:04 PM
I'll let Dave speak to that stuff. I could have used a stock pan for my project which could be had for $40. I got the custom one done for risk mitigation. Why risk popping your build motor over a pan?

XxSlowpokexX
05-25-2013, 04:13 PM
I dont know if I mentioned it in this thread but a freind of mine recently took his pro mod BBC motor and put it into his Nova. Nova has a stock front end so he had to take the groovy pan he had on it and put an off the shelf deep sump moroso. The motor which is a highcompression 15:1 high revving BBC lasted not even a day. AT high rpm's with alot of power its important to keep the oil in the pan and not on the crank. Besides losing power you can whip the oil up like butter. For your typical 5000 300 or so HP motor your fine...But to risk a high $$ motor if you dont have to?...I'm all in on this one and smart move Tom

Flex
05-27-2013, 12:25 AM
So it lasted half as long as your typical Chivy.

aroot1
05-25-2014, 12:08 PM
This thread was linked to a newer discussion of oil pans. Figured I'd resurrect it to see if anything was still going forward with this plan?

Adam

bowez
05-25-2014, 05:54 PM
Dead for all intents an purposes though I will give the plans I have to anyone willing to continue (few stipulations though--nothing major IMO). Hock should be able to help with files if not good with CAD.