"ULTIMATE" SC Block Build???

RGR

Registered User
OK, Long Time since I did a complete Engine, but I got a few Q's and decided to come back here for all the good info!
Here is the basics of the build:

POURED BLOCK with Hard-Blok
Stock stroke forged crank (prolly .010" grind)
Forged 6" Windsor rods
Diamond Pistons (custom chamber matching)
.125" overbore (that's right!) ((sonic checked))
MAX-Ported heads plus Extrude Hone with big valves (what sizes have been used?)
Coatings (thermal and friction)
Custom Cam (RGR Spec)
7mm valve stem heads (Single Port and Split Port)
Custom Manifold

Still looking at Blower Housings, but it will be BIG. Which excludes Eaton :cool:

My biggest concerns are HP limits of the SC forged steel crank. We have a
late '89 (non-duracast). The rest of the motor is all forged aftermarket.
 
filling the block completely will work fine if using methanol as fuel. I know a guy personally that has a 302 twin turbo with a filled block and running straight methanol. the heads/lower/upper intakes actually get frost on them from the fuel if it runs for about half an hour. if theres enough fuel, it will run for hours without getting warm.
 
but then again, he's using 500lb/hr injectors. with a huge fuel rail. can't really fit that much of a fuel rail around the m90
 
Dry blocks are common amongst the hardcore drag cars, but for something that will be driven around, you'll want to leave about 1.5"-2" of water jacket to allow for quench cooling. I've never checked the thickness of the bores, but, unless the block is sleeved, you won't want to run the bores any thinner than .100".

The limits of the 3.8L crank is unknown. There are people making a bit over 700BHP with the factory SC crank and the 4.2L cast crank. Also, I wouldn't grind the crank any further than .010" under. The heat and surface treatment becomes less pure the further you grind it.

If you plan on running a big cam and some RPM to utilize it, you'll need a solid roller valvetrain. This entails that you will need to bore the lifter bores out and press in bronze lifter bushings to restrict the oil flow required for running the roller lifters. I believe Crower has a lifter that will help restrict the oil flow, as well, but we're talking about the "ultimate build."

Other things that you can do is step up to a 60mm cam and machine the cam journals out to accept roller cam bearings. I also don't know how far you can machine the deck, but I would take that down as far as possible, down to .250", if I remember correctly. This will reduce the weight of the rod/piston combo.
 
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Alright, help a brotha out. What is pour block, hard block, dry block? Bob Glidden never did this stuff. Did we evolve while I was in cryo and I missed the memo?:confused:
 
Fills in the coolant passages so the block is stronger. In turn basically limiting the block only to the 1/4 mile strip--No cooling if i understand correctly.
 
Alright, help a brotha out. What is pour block, hard block, dry block? Bob Glidden never did this stuff. Did we evolve while I was in cryo and I missed the memo?:confused:

yes you did miss the memo, we are no longer using stone wheels and our cars. you can make fire with a fire stick from the shell station. using a club over a woman's head can get you in trouble now. those giant metal birds in the sky will not eat you. and shaving all of your fur off is the current fad.


pretty much anything over 60 over you want to pure the block or it could/will blow on you. thats what they are talking about. there are differant methods of doing this and sadly it typically does not allow the engine to be a daily driver afterwards. so basically he is wanting to bring his v-6 to the extreme end.
 
Dry blocks are common amongst the hardcore drag cars, but for something that will be driven around, you'll want to leave about 1.5"-2" of water jacket to allow for quench cooling. I've never checked the thickness of the bores, but, unless the block is sleeved, you won't want to run the bores any thinner than .100".

The limits of the 3.8L crank is unknown. There are people making a bit over 700BHP with the factory SC crank and the 4.2L cast crank. Also, I wouldn't grind the crank any further than .010" under. The heat and surface treatment becomes less pure the further you grind it.

If you plan on running a big cam and some RPM to utilize it, you'll need a solid roller valvetrain. This entails that you will need to bore the lifter bores out and press in bronze lifter bushings to restrict the oil flow required for running the roller lifters. I believe Crower has a lifter that will help restrict the oil flow, as well, but we're talking about the "ultimate build."

Other things that you can do is step up to a 60mm cam and machine the cam journals out to accept roller cam bearings. I also don't know how far you can machine the deck, but I would take that down as far as possible, down to .250", if I remember correctly. This will reduce the weight of the rod/piston combo.


That is some good info CMac89! What kind of RPM are people getting with the
2.312" big end rods? My machinist said that would be the limiting factor for RPM
and suggested basically a 7K limit at the track.

If the 4.2 crank is doing the same 700 BHP as a steel 3.8 crank, IMO the 3.8
crank can handle much more. I have both cranks on hand but prefer the forged.
So does the machinist. We have a $500 engine sim program that
suggests 1200 HP is in our budget but you know how engine sims are LOL!

A few factors in our favor are that I have done tons of these heads, I have
a flow bench and the budget is probably one of the bigger ones we have seen
@ SCCoA due to the fact that the machinist is a bona-fide FORD FANATIC
and discounts this type of work heavily because he loves to see Fast Fords!

We also plan to Extrude Hone the heads after the hand porting. I suspect this
set will be at least a top 3 for heads used on an SC motor EVER. Also, we are
using Split Port heads with a hand built custom SC manifold. Our engine sim
specs out with a Weiand 177 c.i. blower as being just a bit large which is KEWL!
KB and other screw type blowers just make too much low end, or am I not
quite understanding the concept? The 177 makes 4-6 pounds of boost off idle
when you crack the throttle, which seems like plenty.

Our sim predicts over 400 BHP without boost but anything over 300 RWHP
will be great. Boosted would make us a true 9 second car ( oh, please do not
HATE as it is going into a Mustang ;):p )
The car is already under 3000 pounds and boosted it will need less gearing...
 
TO ALL:
Thanks for the interest!!!
A few notes, our machinist states that he has ran poured blocks
SUCCESSFULLY on the street, he has a method that allows sufficient
coolant flow for street driving. No big deal! Hopefully, the SCCoA
community has built several high RPM SC's that can safely exceed
7000 RPM with the large rod journal of the SC crank, as this is his
main concern for the build. Other than this, it is nearly bulletproof!
I would like some anecdotal evidence that we have a good chance
of living past 7000 RPM with the large Windsor rod journals... :D
THANK YOU EVERYONE and this is already a fun project for my son and
me, I have built many awesome street V6's and this will be my first SC!
BTW, he had almost 3 years experience in the USMC doing this kind of
work on aircraft, and it is a great project for the two of us. We did the
head gasket repair on his 95 Mustang about 5 years ago, and we did the
BV head conversion, using beehive valve springs and it is still running GREAT!
 
PS: We will use a main girdle, but which is best?
Also, if I left something out, LET ME KNOW!
This is nearly a "money is no object" build.
Tony is even considering a billet crank if one is available,
I had good info that MOLDEX built one or two forged stroker 4.2
cranks at one time in the early 2000's. Any info is Appreciated!
 
The rod journal size entails a misconception as it isn't the only property in RPM limiting. This is a complicated subject to cover and would take a long time to thoroughly explain. There is a calculated index that includes main journals, rod journals, and stroke which is hypothesized as to how much a crank will flex maximally. This is referred to as crank-pin overlap. Overlapping will cause the the journal to flex, in a very large number of planes, and the resultant of overlapping is called "lensing." The magnitude and overall product for the shape of the lensing is calculated by Circle-on-circle intersection. This provides mathematical proof that the rod and main journal's lensing shapes will combine on an imaginary line to determine how the crank bends in every plane. A split journal crank will have half of the planes as an even fire crank.

Calculating conventional overlap for a factory stroke crank is .75 and .55 for the 4.2L crank. A cast crank will have less lensing than a forged crank will because a cast crank is more brittle. Brittle, meaning that a material will crack without deforming. A forged crank will bend more. The smaller the number, then the more prone the crank is to breaking due to over-lensing, but it depends on the metallurgy of the crank. There hasn't been any testing done as to what values the cranks start to break at. The stroke exponentially effects the integrity of the crank as opposed to journal sizes. When the rod journal revolves around the main journal, there is a constant change in direction, indicating acceleration. This is why radial motion experiences the most centrifugal forces, or in respect to the stroke, an increase in g-force (32.2 ft/s^2 = 1 G). All of that aside, the stroke will be what tests the integrity of the crank given any RPM.

I built my motor to run between 7000-7500RPM. We'll see how it goes! Would this Tony be the Tony from BES?
 
I think the machinist's concerns are for Oil Shear, like if the main journal was too
big like a 3.00" main in a 351W engine. I would love to have anecdotal evidence
that the 2.312" rod journals were good over 8000 RPM because the sims suggest that
our combo is making good power well above 7K!!!
Your description of crank torsion and pin overlap was very informative and agrees
with my current knowledge of the subject. We are keeping the rod journal overlap
maxxed out and doing a minimal grind on the crank.

Tony is my son and not associated with BES. We are simply well-motivated
self-funded V6 folks and likely our NEXT BIG THING is a Duratec V6 4 valver...
We both wish to purchase 50th Anniversary Mustangs "S" models (stripped)
with minimal options and see what we can do with a lightweight Hot Rodded V6!
:cool::D:eek::):p
 
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We also plan to Extrude Hone the heads after the hand porting. I suspect this set will be at least a top 3 for heads used on an SC motor EVER. Also, we are using Split Port heads with a hand built custom SC manifold. Our engine sim specs out with a Weiand 177 c.i. blower as being just a bit large which is KEWL!

KB and other screw type blowers just make too much low end, or am I not
quite understanding the concept? The 177 makes 4-6 pounds of boost off idle when you crack the throttle, which seems like plenty.

Looking forward to seeing this intake manifold. Since the Weiland is a bottom discharge blower, are you also planning to put a liquid IC core in the intake manifold ? Is this going to be EFI or will there be a carb on top of the blower ?

David

PS: I think this guy has already built the Ultimate SC block.

http://www.v6power.net/vb/showthread.php?t=43957
 
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oh now RGR is poking for info. he has enough info. lol.

anyways you know you can buy a billet crank its just money. if ya got 3k and want one they will make it in anysize shape or form you want.

and yes i have talked with phil alot about his block work. with a 4 bolt main set-up with dowels and a girdle would be stiff. and then if you add hard block it can only get stronger.
 
Hi MATT! Tony is building this, and wants a bulletproof bottom
End as our sims show way more available HP than anyone
has made so I assume folks like you are experiencing limits
other than airflow holding you back! Phil spoke of you and
Others hitting a wall due to heads lifting and main walk.
We are starting with an SC block whereas Phil used a 2001
Mustang block. When we get the block from Terre Haute,
I will compare bottom end to Phil's pix, I have 2 standard
3.8 blocks here and the 4 bolt main conversion is IMPOSSIBLE
on any of the main webs, let alone the ends.
 
Looking forward to seeing this intake manifold. Since the Weiland is a bottom discharge blower, are you also planning to put a liquid IC core in the intake manifold ? Is this going to be EFI or will there be a carb on top of the blower ?

David

PS: I think this guy has already built the Ultimate SC block.

http://www.v6power.net/vb/showthread.php?t=43957

Thanx Mr. Neibert!
Yes, an intercooler is in the plans, and EFI as well.
Planning on SPI heads with a custom lower intake
but I am trying to convince Tony to use a back inlet
blower possibly. Better chance of getting an un-modified
hood on the beast. This build is rather pricy but Tony
lives at home and has good disposable income. We also
have a good machinist who is reasonably priced. Personally,
I would set a lower HP limit and have fewer changes in the
drive line but he is calling the shots. Too bad there is no
chance of an engine dyno run but there are dynojets close.
I salute the SC owners and the folks at V6P who have done
TONS of R&D that will save us time, but we were planning
an engine like this for a long time. It will just be easier now!
 
yea i know tony is buildin it. he was on v6p talking about it almost a yr ago.


and yes main cap walk is a issue. and i am lifting the heads at this time. the junk 95 NA block.
 
yea i know tony is buildin it. he was on v6p talking about it almost a yr ago.


and yes main cap walk is a issue. and i am lifting the heads at this time. the junk 95 NA block.



He was still in the Marines then, but he is out now!
Do you think the 1/2" head studs would be enough or what?
 
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