PDA

View Full Version : Its not a SC but its a Big Block EFI 460 PICS ADDED!!



chadder1313
02-15-2011, 12:22 PM
I know, i know but i couldnt resist picking it up. Its a 88 F-250 4x4 5spd. regular cab. Besides the T-Birds i got a love for the 87-97 F-250,350 Ford Pickups. My question is anybody have experience modding the big block in these trucks? I mean, Im not complaining about the power, it runs great, but i could use more! I know the speed density is a pain but i know it can be worked around. One thing Im totally against is a MAF conversion. I will not do it. Way to complicated. My first thing i wanna do is port the heads and do a cam but my reason for this post is to see if anyone has experience in modding these gentle giants from the 80's and 90's?

XR7 Dave
02-15-2011, 12:36 PM
I know, i know but i couldnt resist picking it up. Its a 88 F-250 4x4 5spd. regular cab. Besides the T-Birds i got a love for the 87-97 F-250,350 Ford Pickups. My question is anybody have experience modding the big block in these trucks? I mean, Im not complaining about the power, it runs great, but i could use more! I know the speed density is a pain but i know it can be worked around. One thing Im totally against is a MAF conversion. I will not do it. Way to complicated. My first thing i wanna do is port the heads and do a cam but my reason for this post is to see if anyone has experience in modding these gentle giants from the 80's and 90's?

You must understand that the speed density system is totally incapable of recognizing the need or capability of flowing more air or fuel than stock without tuning. Because it does not measure airflow, it simply cannot recognize the need for more air/fuel. This is why MAF systems are so much easier to work with. You might be able to get slight increases in performance without increasing fuel supply (basically by just leaning out the motor) but you can't compensate for lower vacuum readings (cam upgrade) or increased airflow (headwork) without tuning.

The first thing you must do is determine what EEC tuning support there is for the processor in that truck. Most likely it is 0 or close to it. Regardless of how you may feel, it is definitely to your advantage to switch to an MAF system like a Mustang A9L so that tuning is easy and accessible.

If you don't want to tune it with the EEC, then just put a carburetor on it and forget the EEC entirely. Or leave it more or less alone.

chadder1313
02-15-2011, 01:16 PM
Well the biggest reason i wanna stay away from a MAF is ive heard its a wiring nightmare and i know nothing on even where to start with that. I have heard of the guys doing the mustang EEC-IV but i dont know much about it. Im sure one would have to be pretty knowledgeable about the electronics to which im not. I do know you can tune the factory EEC-IV but to what extent i have no clue. My dad had a 96 F-350 with the 460 and he did do a cam, but no head porting, and he may have gained like 10 horses. My thing is i have heard of a guy on the truck forums do a set of big valve ported heads, mild porting of the lower intake, bbk throttle body, upping the fuel pressure, and a dyno tune make like 365 horse and over 500 ft lbs to the wheel. Im sure i can find 8 30# injectors laying around also.:D Dave i was going to ask maybe some head work and a dyno tune is in its future?

PDQ SC
02-15-2011, 02:18 PM
John Kaase is making Boss (429) heads for these things now. Streetable power at 1000 plus HP! Wring out th' piggy bank and go for it.

XR7 Dave
02-15-2011, 03:16 PM
Dave i was going to ask maybe some head work and a dyno tune is in its future?

Post the EEC code and I'll see what support there is for it.

Regul8r
02-15-2011, 05:22 PM
here's the ford truck forum to get all the info you need on the truck specific stuff.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php

Also check out

fordmuscle

I canot find my link to the 460 ford forum but there is one out there for that too.

seawalkersee
02-15-2011, 05:29 PM
You must understand that the speed density system is totally incapable of recognizing the need or capability of flowing more air or fuel than stock without tuning. Because it does not measure airflow, it simply cannot recognize the need for more air/fuel. This is why MAF systems are so much easier to work with. You might be able to get slight increases in performance without increasing fuel supply (basically by just leaning out the motor) but you can't compensate for lower vacuum readings (cam upgrade) or increased airflow (headwork) without tuning.

The first thing you must do is determine what EEC tuning support there is for the processor in that truck. Most likely it is 0 or close to it. Regardless of how you may feel, it is definitely to your advantage to switch to an MAF system like a Mustang A9L so that tuning is easy and accessible.

If you don't want to tune it with the EEC, then just put a carburetor on it and forget the EEC entirely. Or leave it more or less alone.

Pay attention to this post because it is almost 100% accurate. The only thing that is not is the ability to run it leaner than it already is. You will find that when you pull it out, I am 99.99% sure you are going to break the exhaust bolts off. Not from corrosion, but because the EGTs are so hot that they make them brittle. I have seen it time and time again. There was a thread on Oilburners about these a while ago. The difference in the cams it the cam timing. The factory one in your ride is like 4* retarted (don't quote me on that) but the aftermarket ones are long on the duration for the exhaust to compensate.

Your best bet is to get it switched up to the EEC IV and go. Don't jack with the SD unless you want to put the engine in twice.

SWS

fturner
02-15-2011, 06:53 PM
Electrically its not that hard to add in a MAF and swap over to the A9L, or even a 92-93 GSALI based EEC from a v8 TBird (or an SC one from those years and just change the tune accordingly)... this way you know you can run the QH as the mustang and tbird eec's are fully supported by software for the QH.

As Dave mentioned, stay away from the SD stuff.... its A LOT harder to tune and in your case it would have very limited if any support for it software wise. I can tell you right now, the QH won't be available because of lack of software so that pretty much eliminates the ability to datalog.

Fraser

Dahoopd
02-15-2011, 07:01 PM
The wiring from speed density to MAF isnt anymore difficult than working on an SC. I swapped my 86gt over to MAF and it was a matter of re-pinning the eec.

As the rest said, find an A9L, make sure its out of a 5-speed. I dont quite remember why I went with the 5-speed eec but it was suppose to be better for the AOD car I was putting it in.

talonhead
02-15-2011, 08:44 PM
Electrically its not that hard to add in a MAF and swap over to the A9L, or even a 92-93 GSALI based EEC from a v8 TBird (or an SC one from those years and just change the tune accordingly)... this way you know you can run the QH as the mustang and tbird eec's are fully supported by software for the QH.

As Dave mentioned, stay away from the SD stuff.... its A LOT harder to tune and in your case it would have very limited if any support for it software wise. I can tell you right now, the QH won't be available because of lack of software so that pretty much eliminates the ability to datalog.

Fraser

I have a 460 that I am trying to find a 89-93 body for. I have a '93 Bird V8ECU and wiring harness along with crank and cam sensors to go EDIS 8 with the dual quad coil paks.
There are some really good tuners on this board that can help. I just wish I had the $$ to step forward faster with my BBF bird project.
Maybe that will happen when I get my '93 SC-T56 wound up this spring and can devote more time.
MikeH

XR7 Dave
02-15-2011, 08:54 PM
The only thing that is not is the ability to run it leaner than it already is. Notice I said "might". ;) I'm not familiar with the commanded AFR on those motors but I am familiar with the burnt out exhaust ports. It could be that Ford commanded these motors to run 14.7 AFR at WOT. I know some were done this way but I haven't looked at the programming for any 460's. If I had an EEC code I could look it up. But ya, if it is already running 14.7 afr then there isn't anything you can do to it that won't cost HP. Adding fuel pressure will richen it up some, but it will eventually learn it's way back to 14.7 due to adaptive control.

seawalkersee
02-15-2011, 09:49 PM
Yeah Dave, you said MIGHT...that is why you were not 100%. Thats right...I went all "College Professor" on ya.

None the less, if I saw 5 I saw 25 of them in the shop back when I used to be a tech. All of them that had to have some sort of engine work had to have the heads sent out for the rear bolts to be cut out. ALL OF THEM.

Here is another thing you may want to search for chadder
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30676

SWS

frdlvr30
02-15-2011, 09:51 PM
I bought a new 1996 F-350 with a 460 and E4OD in 1996. I lifted it immediately and put 38's on it. I also added 4.56's front and rear. Had plenty of engine. I did not modify the engine due to the speed density system either. Though I have since converted pre-89 Foxbodies to Maf since then. It is not difficult at all. Like others said, just some repinning...I didnt want to modify my new truck like that since I was trading them in every other year back then. The only reason I didnt do it...

frdlvr30
02-15-2011, 10:02 PM
Yeah Dave, you said MIGHT...that is why you were not 100%. Thats right...I went all "College Professor" on ya.

None the less, if I saw 5 I saw 25 of them in the shop back when I used to be a tech. All of them that had to have some sort of engine work had to have the heads sent out for the rear bolts to be cut out. ALL OF THEM.

Here is another thing you may want to search for chadder
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30676

SWS

A friend of mine decided he wanted a truck like mine and ended up buying one out of Ohio. 1997 model. Last year of the body style. True blueish color, lift, Weld wheels. It was identical to mine, except color. Got it home and drove it for a little bit. I hadnt seen the truck but once and not really up close. A few weeks pass and he calls me all frantic at work one day. Said he decided to tune-up his truck and couldnt get the plugs out of the heads. I had him tow it to me at the dealership. Then I really saw what he had bought. This truck had a stupid amount of runst on everything. Truck only had like 40k on it a was 2 years old. They were apparently Salt miles. The plugs were all broke off on the passenger side. Couldnt get them out, They were rusted in. Told him the heads had to come off and that he would need manifolds and stud kits as well. I did mangage to get all the broken plugs and studs out without machine shop help, but it took awhile. Everything broke off.....like you mentioned above. I could not believe what a complete ~~~ that truck was, especially as beautiful as it was. I told him to drive it for alittle bit and get rid of it. That is was sittting there rusting as we speak. He sold it about 6 months later for the New 1999 7.3L Superduty.....

frdlvr30
02-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Yeah Dave, you said MIGHT...that is why you were not 100%. Thats right...I went all "College Professor" on ya.

None the less, if I saw 5 I saw 25 of them in the shop back when I used to be a tech. All of them that had to have some sort of engine work had to have the heads sent out for the rear bolts to be cut out. ALL OF THEM.

Here is another thing you may want to search for chadder
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30676

SWS

A friend of mine decided he wanted a truck like mine and ended up buying one out of Ohio. 1997 model. Last year of the body style. True blueish color, lift, Weld wheels. It was identical to mine, except color. Got it home and drove it for a little bit. I hadnt seen the truck but once and not really up close. A few weeks pass and he calls me all frantic at work one day. Said he decided to tune-up his truck and couldnt get the plugs out of the heads. I had him tow it to me at the dealership. Then I really saw what he had bought. This truck had a stupid amount of runst on everything. Truck only had like 40k on it a was 2 years old. They were apparently Salt miles. The plugs were all broke off on the passenger side. Couldnt get them out, They were rusted in. Told him the heads had to come off and that he would need manifolds and stud kits as well. I did mangage to get all the broken plugs and studs out without machine shop help, but it took awhile. Everything broke off.....like you mentioned above. I could not believe what a complete ~~~ that truck was, especially as beautiful as it was. I told him to drive it for alittle bit and get rid of it. That is was sittting there rusting as we speak. He sold it about 6 months later for the New 1999 7.3L Superduty.....

chadder1313
02-15-2011, 10:47 PM
Well i actually am gonna start tearing into her this weekend and see what we have. I think it may have a HG issue because i think its eating some coolant. So if i want to convert to MAF is buy a 5 sp A9L mustang computer and then what? What will i have to repin? Can i get away with gasket matching the heads and intake? Or will that still effect the SD? Hey Dave ill try to get that ECM code this weekend.

fturner
02-15-2011, 11:09 PM
You can also look at getting the EEC out of a 92-93 v8 tbird as well.

Fraser

frdlvr30
02-15-2011, 11:21 PM
Well i actually am gonna start tearing into her this weekend and see what we have. I think it may have a HG issue because i think its eating some coolant. So if i want to convert to MAF is buy a 5 sp A9L mustang computer and then what? What will i have to repin? Can i get away with gasket matching the heads and intake? Or will that still effect the SD? Hey Dave ill try to get that ECM code this weekend.

It was a motorsport kit that I installed. That was a while ago though....Came with PCM, Harness, wiring and instructions. And MAF of course....

talonhead
02-16-2011, 02:47 AM
Have to say that my 460 project engine is a pre '78 non-EFI internally balanced. So I have to start more or less from scratch as far as the EFI goes.
MikeH

chadder1313
02-16-2011, 04:08 PM
I know this may sound very stupid but could I reuse the headbolts? Auto Zone and Advanced do not sell them and studs are like $200?

XR7 Dave
02-16-2011, 05:03 PM
I know this may sound very stupid but could I reuse the headbolts? Auto Zone and Advanced do not sell them and studs are like $200?

I don't have a book to look it up right now, but I don't believe that the 460 uses torque to yield bolts, so you should be able to re-use them if they are in good condition.

seawalkersee
02-16-2011, 05:14 PM
Uhhhhh...eating coolant? Look at the plugs and see if you have one that is discolored...then, get a set of intake gaskets as I doubt it has a HG failure unless it got REALLY hot.

Frdlvr. We had an account with a lawn care place called "the Grass Pad" and they all had 351s. For some reason, the rear plugs in both heads on most of them broke off too. We were a fairly high volume shop and outsourced all of the machine work. After the first 3 or so 351's they started a schedule to bring the whole fleet in so we could try to get the plugs changed prior to them needing to pay to have the heads pulled. I think it was between 40 and 60% that had to have them pulled (not my gig on that one).

SWS

chadder1313
02-16-2011, 10:35 PM
Yeah the head gasket on the passenger side bank i think is toast. Alot of smoke, antifreeze coming out the exhaust, and missing pretty bad. It pretty much did the exact same thing my SC did the first time i blew the HG's on it. I was actually waiting for a reason to dig into her. Im gonna start tearing into it this weekend. I think im gonna do some mild porting to the heads and intake, then im gonna get a speed density friendly cam from Comp Cams part #34-255-5. Its Comp Cams Computer Controlled Series Cams. Any opinoins on that cam? Either way im just gonna keep it simple for now. Later on down the road when i get everything else done that i want maybe Ill just carb it. Maybe do a cobra jet build. It feels like being a little kid again. Man i love these old trucks.

chadder1313
02-27-2011, 07:12 PM
Well i tore her down and found some interesting things to say the least. The coolant looks like pure rust. Dont know if the coolant has ever been changed. Headgasket looks like it rusted to pieces on the rear passanger bank. Performance wise no wonder these things are so gentle. These heads are just plain terrible. One intake port is the size of one of the two throttle body blades. The exhuast port is half the size of the intake port??? But needless to say here are a few pics. How long you guys think the head gasket has been blown? Hey Dave does this calibration tag help?

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/chadder1313/172.jpg

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/chadder1313/174.jpg

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/chadder1313/175.jpg

XR7 Dave
02-27-2011, 07:26 PM
Chad, no I need the # off the EEC itself.

Wow, that headgasket looks a lot like a few SC headgaskets I've seen! lol

chadder1313
02-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Yeah i think its been blown for like 5 years! What causes that head gasket to look that way? Damn Dave your gonna put to work. Is the ECM in the passenger side kick panel?

Stocker
02-27-2011, 08:46 PM
It's been a while since I had my 460 but IIRC, the stock injectors are 36lb/hr so 30s would not be beneficial. Also rumor has it that industrial BBF heads of the same era would be a complete bolt on with larger ports (429/460 F550+ engines). I wanted to find a set for the '92 that I had to find out for sure but never found any. Vortec or Paxton at one point in time sold a supercharger kit for them.

chadder1313
02-27-2011, 08:52 PM
The stock injectors are actually 24#. Hmm thats pretty interesting, ill have to check on the industrail apps.

seawalkersee
03-03-2011, 12:00 AM
I stand corrected...HG it is. I can't remember where the processor is on them. I think it is on the driver's side near the fender, below the mc. If the bulkhead is on the driver's side, you have to pull the inner fender and then take out the 8mm (or is it 10mm) loom bolt, and then take out the retaining bolt(s) and rock the pcm to the front.

SWS

90turbo1
03-03-2011, 12:33 AM
Yeah i think its been blown for like 5 years! What causes that head gasket to look that way? Damn Dave your gonna put to work. Is the ECM in the passenger side kick panel?

that is direct result of cooling system never being serviced, as the additives in the coolant break down and leave, the coolant will turn acidic and start to eat the soft metals and seals. usually the headgaskets (because they are soft metal wraped in paper gasket is one of the first things to go,

i bed if you find something aluminum in the system it will be pitted.

and we cannot get people to service the cooling system on there cars because they think its a scam.. they should see some of this stuff.

chadder1313
03-03-2011, 07:45 AM
Yeah man it's pretty bad. But it'll be fixed soon so all will be good!

Jacob_Royer
03-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Throw a set of DOVEII heads on it and throw away those boat anchors! then top it off with an edelbrock performer intake and performer cam, a 750 edelbrock carb and some cheapo headers! Much more power and alot cheaper/easier than trying to do anything with the EFI

chadder1313
03-04-2011, 07:37 PM
Im not gonna take the EFI off just yet! Theres still some power left on the table with it. I mean it ran good the way it was, but i could always use more. Whoi ever had this truck before me neglected it big time. The motor was all carboned up and just plain nasty on the inside. I suspect a way better running motor when im finished putting it back together. Hey Jacob I think i seen you post on another board about these 460's not having any power before. After owning many early 80s and mid 90s Ford trucks these 460s have way more power than the small blocks. I wouldnt go back to a 351. But all in all they are great trucks!