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View Full Version : 1993 5spd Harmonic Balancer



Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 09:25 AM
PO replaced harmonic balancer and car wouldn't start afterwards. I decided to get under the car and pull the HB off. I pulled the crank bolt and in the process found 2 washers and that the bolt wasn't tight down on the HB. Car has been turned over a bit, so I guess my question is do I need to replace the HB again? Is it shot at this point? Already have new crank sensor.

Also this is the car and some more history.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117457

Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 03:09 PM
Bolt is also the wrong length. All I need to know is if the balancer is junk now.

ThunderRoad
03-02-2011, 03:24 PM
DID YOU LINE UP THE KEY WAY RIGHT ???? IS THE BALANCER WORN ON THE INSIDE ???? WHAT,S THE PROBLEM ???? IF IT IS IN DEEP ENOUGH TO MAKE THE PICK UP WORK THAT,S ALL IT CAN DO OTHER THAT YOU MAY HAVE DAMAGED THE PICK UP SENSOR WHEN RE MOVING BALANCER:p

David Neibert
03-02-2011, 03:34 PM
Bolt is also the wrong length. All I need to know is if the balancer is junk now.

I thought the owner of the car said he was pulling it to return to BHJ for a non-SFI replacement. In either case the balancer shouldn't have been damaged just from using some washers or not being properly torqued.

Suggest using shorter bolts for those that bottomed out (for securing the reluctor ring and crank pulley to balancer). The correct crank bolt and washer can be provided by Victor at spinning wheels.

David

Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 03:41 PM
I didn't install it the first time around. The car won't start after PO changed the balancer so I figured it was a good place to start. Have a new crank sensor so I'm changing that. The balancer is still snug on the shaft and doesn't wobble. Vanes look ok on the back of the balancer.

I'd guess the balancer was walking forward and not engaging the sensor properly. Is that logical?

Chris

Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 03:47 PM
I thought the owner of the car said he was pulling it to return to BHJ for a non-SFI replacement.

I have the correct length bolt.

Yeah, so did I. Doesn't appear that he did.

Do you know what voltages I should see from the crank sensor?

David Neibert
03-02-2011, 04:26 PM
I have the correct length bolt.

Yeah, so did I. Doesn't appear that he did.

Do you know what voltages I should see from the crank sensor?

No I don't know what voltages or how to test the crank sensor. Yes, if balancer wasn't fully seated on the crank it's possible that the sensor would lose contact. Then again, if it was that far away I wouldn't expect the belts to be alligned well enough to stay on the crank pulley.

I would check the crank sensor to main harness connection.

David

Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 04:29 PM
I'm replacing the sensor just to rule it out after reinstalling the HB.

S_Mazza
03-02-2011, 05:15 PM
It should output an alternating on-off pulse of 12V DC.

If it is failing electronically, it can output a pulse at a lower voltage which can show up on a voltmeter, but is not enough to trigger the DIS.

A 12V LED test lamp is a good way to check it. I don't know if an analog voltmeter would work because of the current draw, and I don't think a digital voltmeter would work because of the display lag. An oscilloscope would work great, but if you had an oscilloscope, you probably would have let us know, right? ;)

Chrismiss
03-02-2011, 10:15 PM
Got the balancer torqued up. New crank sensor and still a no start condition. There is a small voltage at injector connectors during crank. Haven't verified fuel pressure yet, will look there tomorrow.

Car sat for a few years but old fuel was drained and p-ump was replaced. Could old fuel have hosed the injectors?

PO dumped some 2 cycle in the tank to try and get it to start. Could that have ruined my injectors?

And supposedly the MAF is bad.

I have spark.

90turbo1
03-03-2011, 12:24 AM
Got the balancer torqued up. New crank sensor and still a no start condition. There is a small voltage at injector connectors during crank. Haven't verified fuel pressure yet, will look there tomorrow.

Car sat for a few years but old fuel was drained and p-ump was replaced. Could old fuel have hosed the injectors?

PO dumped some 2 cycle in the tank to try and get it to start. Could that have ruined my injectors?

And supposedly the MAF is bad.

I have spark.


why would you dump 2 cycle (i am assuming 2 cycle oil) in the tank????

any oil would have the possiblilty of fouling the injectors, or making them so full of goo that they wont do anything.

you really need to crack out a multimeter and get to work on it, check the crank sensor for operation, post the results here, not just yes it works put the voltage up here, then check the car in a systamic order and post results, that way the more informed and experienced techies on here can give you some real feedback.

or with the amount of money you dumped into it so far, you could have had it diagnosed by some one like a dealership or mechanic at independent shop.

hawgy
03-03-2011, 02:37 AM
here is a step by step http://www.frontiernet.net/~miketoni/images/tbird/DISnostart/DIS%20No%20Start.htm

90turbo1
03-03-2011, 04:10 AM
here is a step by step http://www.frontiernet.net/~miketoni/images/tbird/DISnostart/DIS%20No%20Start.htm

nice find, i will have to archive that one on my computer

Chrismiss
03-03-2011, 09:30 AM
why would you dump 2 cycle (i am assuming 2 cycle oil) in the tank????

any oil would have the possiblilty of fouling the injectors, or making them so full of goo that they wont do anything.

you really need to crack out a multimeter and get to work on it, check the crank sensor for operation, post the results here, not just yes it works put the voltage up here, then check the car in a systamic order and post results, that way the more informed and experienced techies on here can give you some real feedback.

or with the amount of money you dumped into it so far, you could have had it diagnosed by some one like a dealership or mechanic at independent shop.


It was a 2 cycle mix and I didn't do it.

Only money I have put in it to this point other than buying it was the $60 for the crank sensor and a new bolt for the HB.

I whipped out the MM yesterday. I do have an O-scope, but it isn't very portable.

I found that troubleshooting guide the other day and am planning on working through that tonight.

Thanks for the input and suggestions it is much appreciated. Will post actual MM readings tonight.

Chris

ThunderRoad
03-03-2011, 10:57 AM
if the spark is good the spray should start it then the next step is the fuel :eek: it,s a about basis

ThunderRoad
03-03-2011, 11:00 AM
if the spark is good the spray should start it thenthe next step is the fuel :eek: ti,s all about basics:cool:

Chrismiss
03-03-2011, 11:44 AM
Its fires with ether.

ThunderRoad
03-04-2011, 05:21 PM
Must be a fuel problem open the line safely to check for flow to the injectors...it,s all a matter of troble shooting better if you have an other person with you to help out ....all the best :)

Chrismiss
03-04-2011, 09:26 PM
Just got around to checking fuel pressure and I have 40psi at the rail. Should it drop when i crank?

Anyone know what voltages i should see at the injectors?

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 11:09 AM
Car passed pinpoint tests. Still no fire. Gas smelled old even though I was told old gas was pumped out of tank. I dropped the tank and the fuel was nasty. Lots of oil and other crud in the tank. Gave it a good cleaning and replaced entire fuel pump assembly. Changed fuel filters again and still won't start.

Injectors are getting signal to pulse, verified this with a test light.

I'm going to order up some injectors. Any other thoughts?

S_Mazza
03-07-2011, 12:29 PM
Car passed pinpoint tests. Still no fire. Gas smelled old even though I was told old gas was pumped out of tank. I dropped the tank and the fuel was nasty. Lots of oil and other crud in the tank. Gave it a good cleaning and replaced entire fuel pump assembly. Changed fuel filters again and still won't start.

Injectors are getting signal to pulse, verified this with a test light.

I'm going to order up some injectors. Any other thoughts?

If you have a fire extinguisher handy...

You could pull the blower off, pull the injectors out of the heads, stick the rail in a clear container of some kind, and crank the engine. That should tell you what kind of spray you are getting.

At your own risk.

StrifeCrusader
03-07-2011, 12:55 PM
There is prob still gunk in the fuel lines and rail. I had the same problem with mine. I had to take out all the injectors and soak them in clean gas. While the injectors were out, I disconnected the fuel lines and fuel rail then blew them out with compressed air. I replaced the o-rings on the injectors and made sure there wasn't any trash build-up on the sprayer. I hope this helps you, mine sat up for about 5 years.

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 12:58 PM
I sprayed all the lines out with injector cleaner and compressed air. I soaked the injectors in clean fuel as well with no luck.

Should pressure at the rail drop while cranking?

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 12:59 PM
If you have a fire extinguisher handy...

You could pull the blower off, pull the injectors out of the heads, stick the rail in a clear container of some kind, and crank the engine. That should tell you what kind of spray you are getting.

At your own risk.


Actually considered this yesterday.:cool:

StrifeCrusader
03-07-2011, 02:37 PM
After reading PO's thread, I think it might be the fuel pressure regulator. I don't think the fuel pressure should drop down to 15-20 psi, it should be 30-35 normally.

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 02:43 PM
Have a SCP regulator coming, but pressure stays around 35 at crank now.

S_Mazza
03-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Have a SCP regulator coming, but pressure stays around 35 at crank now.

I think that is okay. It should drop a little as the engine cranking creates vacuum against the closed throttle plate. I think 35 above atmospheric pressure is probably 39 above manifold pressure, so it sounds good.

Of course, if the injectors don't squirt, it's easy to maintain pressure in the rail. ;)

StrifeCrusader
03-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Have you pulled the spark plugs to see if they are gapped correctly and wet with fuel?

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 03:08 PM
Did pull plugs. Gaps were all over the place. Replaced them with new. Pulled one after trying to crank yesterday and it was dry.

Chrismiss
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
Of course, if the injectors don't squirt, it's easy to maintain pressure in the rail. ;)


Exactly what i was thinking, which is why i asked about pressure drop while cranking.

StrifeCrusader
03-07-2011, 03:40 PM
It has to be the injectors. Fuel pressure should drop some because the inj opening up, if the spark plugs are dry that means the inj are clogged.

S_Mazza
03-07-2011, 04:43 PM
Exactly what i was thinking, which is why i asked about pressure drop while cranking.

Try this then ... Prime the fuel rail by turning the key to "ON" once or twice. Then unplug the inertia switch in the trunk. That will prevent the fuel pump from running any more. Then crank and watch the fuel pressure. If the injectors are squirting, it should quickly drop to zero. If they aren't squirting, it will drop slowly, or not at all.

Chrismiss
03-11-2011, 10:31 PM
Well,got the injectors in and it fired right up. Wouldn't idle worth a damn and has a serious miss.The misfire is the original problem according to po.

There is a special clanking noise going on as well.

Got dark and I had had enough. Going to get after it again in the morning.

Chrismiss
03-12-2011, 09:42 AM
Cant tell where the noise is coming from so I'm going to take belt off of SC and see if it stops.

Another odd behavior i noticed is if it stalls it will start like every 4th bump, and on the other three it sounds like it binds and gives up. Any insights into what that may be?

Thanks all!

S_Mazza
03-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Cant tell where the noise is coming from so I'm going to take belt off of SC and see if it stops.

Another odd behavior i noticed is if it stalls it will start like every 4th bump, and on the other three it sounds like it binds and gives up. Any insights into what that may be?

Thanks all!

Could be a failed cam sensor. If that goes out, it doesn't know which cylinder is "up", so it guesses. It makes starting harder.

Chrismiss
03-12-2011, 11:20 PM
Coil pack and cam sensor and she is running on 6 cylinders. Sounds like it has a hell of a knock though.

Kind of sounds like it may be the SC. Hard to determine with the wide open exhaust!:rolleyes:

Thanks for all the help folks.