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kenewagner
05-01-2011, 12:18 PM
Well went back to the Dyno yesterday. Had high hopes for much better numbers after rewiring some electrical issues. Install a slightly smaller pulley on the Whipple. I did not get the new roller rockers install so I still have 1.6 ratio rockers in. It still continues to have some grimlins. The AFR was terribly rich from the changes in the fuel system. At one point during the first pull it was so rich it dropped off the graph:eek:A little tuning corrected that. It than just shut off at 6,000 rpm and wouldnt start. For hours we thought the EEC was fried but got it back running. We found some problems I need to address. The alternator is just not putting out the juice needed to run extra fans and add ons. Need to upgrade there. It still does not like being data logged and ran hard. Found a pin hole leak in a IC tube that will need to be fixed. The biggest problem seems to be the TQ Converter just seems to be slipping way to much, like the engine is just plain overpowering the converter.
Best run of the day was 412RWHP 459 RWTQ. That was after backing out some of the timing to 24 degrees. It started making 400+ HP at 5100 rpm but never really climb much after that or drop below 400 all the way to 6500 rpm. Also the speedometer just quit and the AFR quit so I still have my share of problems. I gain a little each time I go to the Dyno. Just wish I didnt feel like I was going to have root canal everytime I go to the dyno.

Ken

nickleman60
05-01-2011, 12:40 PM
Ken,
Your car just loves to hate you it seems. Keep on plugging away and you'll get it right.

By the way I just bought the QH so I'm getting ready install it and to dip into that can of worms.......:eek:

rzimmerl
05-01-2011, 12:41 PM
Thats a big torque number, like a 5 speed number not a high stall AOD number. Wonder why your hp didn't continue to climb after 5100, can you post the dyno sheet. What is the QH reporting as your alternator voltage thru the runs?

BLOWN38
05-01-2011, 01:26 PM
Thats a big torque number, like a 5 speed number not a high stall AOD number. Wonder why your hp didn't continue to climb after 5100, can you post the dyno sheet. What is the QH reporting as your alternator voltage thru the runs?

Cause it needs more timing up high. Also may have to scale the max rpm in the tune so you don't throw alot of timing at it down low to get it where it should be up high.

Keep on pluggin away at it Ken.

shoalcracker
05-01-2011, 01:51 PM
Ken

Considering all the sidebar issues sounds like your well on your way.

Only gets better as you sort it out.

Paul

neverfastenough
05-01-2011, 03:08 PM
This thread is useless with out datalogs:p

kenewagner
05-01-2011, 06:25 PM
This thread is useless with out datalogs:p

I dont have any software for tuning anymore. The lap top crash and I was not able to pull any QH software off the lap top. The tuner used his own lap top to tune.

Ken

Mike8675309
05-01-2011, 07:10 PM
wow ken... constantly beleaguered by stuff. At least it's pretty.

The stock alternator is in no way capable of providing enough power for our ignition system at full song with any additional electrical load. I saw that myself.

I have Dual 6" cooling fans on my heat exchanger, an electric intercooler pump, Spal cooling fan, and Snow Methanol pump all added. I can watch the battery voltage (eec data logged) sit nice and stable as I drive around, but as soon as I hit the throttle hard, battery voltage would start dropping as RPM and boost went up. At the effective compression ratio seen in our cylinders with boost, it takes much more voltage to generate enough current to jump the spark plug gap. Thus far I haven't seen in indication that our coil packs are not up to the task. It's just the stock alternator doesn't make enough energy. I'm going to upgrade to a high output 3g/6g alternator.

I'm curious about the "shut off" you experienced. When that happened, what did you check and what did you find? One thing to keep in mind is that the ignition system and the EEC-IV use a number of voltage regulation circuits. These circuits work to maintain a specific voltage for the circuits that run at lower voltages (I think most of the chips run at at 5vdc, most new embedded chips run at 3vdc). As voltage drifts, the regulator needs to adjust to do this. The less voltage available, the more regulation that occurs, and that work becomes heat. Because this can happen, these voltage regulation circuits often have overheat protection which will shut things down if they get too hot. Not sure if the EEC or DIS have these things. But it's an idea if your voltage was dropping too far.

Note to get by the voltage thing, I've seen cars on a dyno throw a battery charger on the battery to keep voltage from dropping as rpms come up.

I'm sure you'll get it worked out.

ricardoa1
05-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Nice congrats, minus the issues. Keep plugging.

BLOWN38
05-01-2011, 07:33 PM
My logged voltage drops to 12.6 at the end of a 11 second run. I have a 12" and 10" fan on my IC, electric water pump, snow kit, LM1, a slew of gauges, and a BAP. Its a fairly new alt on the car with stock size pulley. I believe the belt slips on the pulley at WOT due to poor belt wrap. I know it chirps the belt every time it shifts.

rzimmerl
05-01-2011, 08:50 PM
Ken, I think you are allowed to transfer the QH license over to another laptop. I'd email Clint and see if he can help out.

kenewagner
05-01-2011, 09:18 PM
wow ken... constantly beleaguered by stuff. At least it's pretty.

The stock alternator is in no way capable of providing enough power for our ignition system at full song with any additional electrical load. I saw that myself.

I have Dual 6" cooling fans on my heat exchanger, an electric intercooler pump, Spal cooling fan, and Snow Methanol pump all added. I can watch the battery voltage (eec data logged) sit nice and stable as I drive around, but as soon as I hit the throttle hard, battery voltage would start dropping as RPM and boost went up. At the effective compression ratio seen in our cylinders with boost, it takes much more voltage to generate enough current to jump the spark plug gap. Thus far I haven't seen in indication that our coil packs are not up to the task. It's just the stock alternator doesn't make enough energy. I'm going to upgrade to a high output 3g/6g alternator.

I'm curious about the "shut off" you experienced. When that happened, what did you check and what did you find? One thing to keep in mind is that the ignition system and the EEC-IV use a number of voltage regulation circuits. These circuits work to maintain a specific voltage for the circuits that run at lower voltages (I think most of the chips run at at 5vdc, most new embedded chips run at 3vdc). As voltage drifts, the regulator needs to adjust to do this. The less voltage available, the more regulation that occurs, and that work becomes heat. Because this can happen, these voltage regulation circuits often have overheat protection which will shut things down if they get too hot. Not sure if the EEC or DIS have these things. But it's an idea if your voltage was dropping too far.

Note to get by the voltage thing, I've seen cars on a dyno throw a battery charger on the battery to keep voltage from dropping as rpms come up.

I'm sure you'll get it worked out.

I wish I had a good answer for all your questions Mike. At one time during the tune we called Dave Dalke and he offer help to Dan the tuner. I beleive I solved a few issues. I will be looking at the 6G upgrade. Also the new pump runs continuous. I am not sure that is correct either. He also recommended the voltage regulator for the pump. I will be checking to see if I get back the AFR gauge and speedometer back. I need to get with Alan on the TQ converter to see what can be done if anything.

Ryan: Thanks for any help you can help on the QH software

Ken

David Neibert
05-02-2011, 12:38 PM
Ken,

What converter are you currently using ?

David

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 09:12 AM
I currently have a 9.5" Dirty dog converter. It was suppose to be a 2800 stall or there abouts. While idling on the dyno to set the idle in QH it climbed to 210 degrees. I talked to Alan and recommended I scrap the current cooler and go with a true cool transmisson cooler with no fan. Also recommended John Deere HY Guard to replace the fluid and 3/8" hard lines from tranny to cooler and back.

Calling to find out if the alternator I have can be rebuilt to a higher output or do I need to go to a 6G.

Here is the dyno sheet. I am waiting for the data logs

Ken

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 09:23 AM
What trans cooler do you have now, location, and line setup?

What pump was running continuous?

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 09:25 AM
Wow, that torque curve takes a massive dive:eek::confused:

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 09:29 AM
What trans cooler do you have now, location, and line setup?

What pump was running continuous?

Stock tranny lines going to the radiator than out to a tube style cooler I bought from Summit and than back to the tranny using stock lines. I assume they are 5/16" lines. A 8" fan runs continious on the cooler when the key is on. Cooler is mounted right where the stock IC would be if I had one

The A1000 fuel pump runs continious with the key on

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 09:30 AM
Wow, that torque curve takes a massive dive:eek::confused:



YEH:rolleyes:

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 09:35 AM
I don't think those tube style coolers are very efficient, stacked plate coolers on the other hand work well. The 3/8" lines will be a good thing for flow and the steel line will act as a cooler also. I would think about bypassing the radiator and just run a stand alone cooler.

I wouldn't see why the fuel pump should ever shut off, and a voltage regulator may help, if the pump is sucking away a chunk of you juice.

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 09:50 AM
I don't think those tube style coolers are very efficient, stacked plate coolers on the other hand work well. The 3/8" lines will be a good thing for flow and the steel line will act as a cooler also. I would think about bypassing the radiator and just run a stand alone cooler.

I wouldn't see why the fuel pump should ever shut off, and a voltage regulator may help, if the pump is sucking away a chunk of you juice.


I agree on the cooler. Am looking at a Tru-Cool Max(47391). The lines arent bad to run. I even have some SS line left in 3/8" Alan felt the fan blocks a lot of air while driving and didnt recommend one. That would be one less thing to pull power from the electrical. The tuner recommended the regulator to keep the fuel pump from burning up during in town driving which some day I would like to do:rolleyes: Cost of that pump regulator is 338 green backs:eek:

Ken

Ken

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 10:05 AM
Not to say this is the cooler to use, but its what I run with the fan as a puller not a pusher.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13950/?rtype=10

Would a KB BAP work as a voltage regulator for your pump?

BLOWN38
05-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Not to say this is the cooler to use, but its what I run with the fan as a puller not a pusher.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13950/?rtype=10

Would a KB BAP work as a voltage regulator for your pump?

The regulator is a step down type not up like the BAP. Runs the pump less at low RPM as to not heat up the fuel or pump. Its like the newer cars that have a returnless fuel system. It pulses the pump.

90blkbrd
05-03-2011, 10:13 AM
I'm curious about the "shut off" you experienced. When that happened, what did you check and what did you find?

If it was anything the same as when it happened at the 2010 shootout when we took it for a spin to data log it. I believe it happened above 4000 rpms and it was a sudden jolt to the car along with a backfire in the exhaust (which I believe caused the exhaust issue ken had the rest of the weekend) and then it died. As we rolled to a stop in the parking lot the car would not restart. We came back to it within the hour and it started right up. From that point on we never data logged the car and it performed flawlessly at the track.

S_Mazza
05-03-2011, 10:27 AM
If it was anything the same as when it happened at the 2010 shootout when we took it for a spin to data log it. I believe it happened above 4000 rpms and it was a sudden jolt to the car along with a backfire in the exhaust (which I believe caused the exhaust issue ken had the rest of the weekend) and then it died. As we rolled to a stop in the parking lot the car would not restart. We came back to it within the hour and it started right up. From that point on we never data logged the car and it performed flawlessly at the track.

There may just be some sort of timing issue between the QH and EEC at higher RPMs. That's a lot of data to synchronize at that speed. I am no EE, but I can imagine that the slightest flaw in the system could easily cascade into a failure. Even something like a drop in the system voltage might have some effect.

I wonder if reducing the number of datalog items could help?

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 10:44 AM
I'm curious about the "shut off" you experienced. When that happened, what did you check and what did you find? One thing to keep in mind is that the ignition system and the EEC-IV use a number of voltage regulation circuits. These circuits work to maintain a specific voltage for the circuits that run at lower voltages (I think most of the chips run at at 5vdc, most new embedded chips run at 3vdc). As voltage drifts, the regulator needs to adjust to do this. The less voltage available, the more regulation that occurs, and that work becomes heat. Because this can happen, these voltage regulation circuits often have overheat protection which will shut things down if they get too hot. Not sure if the EEC or DIS have these things. But it's an idea if your voltage was dropping too far.

Note to get by the voltage thing, I've seen cars on a dyno throw a battery charger on the battery to keep voltage from dropping as rpms come up.

I'm sure you'll get it worked out.


The car was up to about 6000 RPM and popped. It than just shut off, just like turning the key off. Wouldnt start for quite some time. We even took the EEC out and plugged it into another SC and it ran that car. I did not see anything on the data log as I dont have any tuning ability due to a bad lap top. Was using the dyno guys lap top and still waiting for the data logs to look at. His statement on the voltage is as follows


will send the logs later it looks like the electrical system is only giving the computer 12.5 to 12.0 at WOT. So that will have to fixed so the computer doesn't shut down you should be able to hold about 13.0 at WOT and 13.8 at idle and cruise.

Anyway power does seem to be a problem. I have put the charger on the battery on the dyno this time and also when Dave tuned it so keeping voltage up seems to be a recurring problem. Might throw a tester on the battery as well and load test it.

Ken

90blkbrd
05-03-2011, 10:48 AM
There may just be some sort of timing issue between the QH and EEC at higher RPMs. That's a lot of data to synchronize at that speed. I am no EE, but I can imagine that the slightest flaw in the system could easily cascade into a failure. Even something like a drop in the system voltage might have some effect.

I wonder if reducing the number of datalog items could help?

I do not believe this is a QH/BE issue as Ken's car has never liked to be data logged. It also cause David Dalke issues with his equipment he used when he tuned this car in 2007 prior to QH/BE.

I do believe that the equipment that David used in 2007 and QH/BE data logging must put just enough draw on power from the EEC to cause it to hiccup.

Mike8675309
05-03-2011, 11:01 AM
There may just be some sort of timing issue between the QH and EEC at higher RPMs. That's a lot of data to synchronize at that speed.

The QH doesn't work that way. The QH presents memory locations configured with specific parameters for your tune for the EEC-IV to fetch information from. Any code is running in the EEC-IV. Thus the issue that Ken had with the machine is unlikely due to the QH interaction. I datalog a ton of parameters and never have seen such an issue up to 5800rpm. This type of issue is where the SNEEC box would come in very handy since it sits between the eec and the harness measuring things the same way the EEC measures them.

Not sure why you want the pump not to run all the time. That pump is rated for continuous duty. The stock pump runs all the time (when the car is running. EEC has a timer for when to run the pump with key on, but engine not start).

Fuelab is working on a new fuel pressure regulator that is flow referenced and can provide a signal to adjust how hard the fuel pump works based on actual engine demand. http://www.dragzine.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2010-fuelab%E2%80%99s-on-demand-regulator/ Might be able to get one as part of a Beta program as it's not generally available yet.

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 11:10 AM
Not sure why you want the pump not to run all the time. That pump is rated for continuous duty. The stock pump runs all the time (when the car is running. EEC has a timer for when to run the pump with key on, but engine not start).

Fuelab is working on a new fuel pressure regulator that is flow referenced and can provide a signal to adjust how hard the fuel pump works based on actual engine demand. http://www.dragzine.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2010-fuelab%E2%80%99s-on-demand-regulator/ Might be able to get one as part of a Beta program as it's not generally available yet.


Not a matter of what I want;) It just runs all the time if the key is on. I will likely bite the bullitt and buy the aeromotive pump regulator as it is compatable im sure with the A1000. Just have to sell more Intercoolers to buy this stuff.

I am going to check with the alternator shop that rebuilt the alternator to see if it can be built to put out more power. Otherwise I will be selling a nice chrome case alternator and installing a 6G one

Ken

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 11:14 AM
How did you wire the pump? Does is shut off after a few seconds when the key is in the on position, engine not running?

S_Mazza
05-03-2011, 11:30 AM
The QH doesn't work that way. The QH presents memory locations configured with specific parameters for your tune for the EEC-IV to fetch information from. Any code is running in the EEC-IV. Thus the issue that Ken had with the machine is unlikely due to the QH interaction. I datalog a ton of parameters and never have seen such an issue up to 5800rpm. This type of issue is where the SNEEC box would come in very handy since it sits between the eec and the harness measuring things the same way the EEC measures them.

I see what you mean. I also didn't know that it had happened with different devices plugged into the same car.

I still suspect that there may be some effect from plugging a chip in, because it's extending the circuits that all the data travels on. But if you have it working with all parameters, then it must just be Ken's car.

I have the QH and like it, but I don't rev as high as you guys do.

David Neibert
05-03-2011, 11:48 AM
The car was up to about 6000 RPM and popped. It than just shut off, just like turning the key off. Wouldnt start for quite some time. We even took the EEC out and plugged it into another SC and it ran that car. I did not see anything on the data log as I dont have any tuning ability due to a bad lap top. Was using the dyno guys lap top and still waiting for the data logs to look at. His statement on the voltage is as follows


will send the logs later it looks like the electrical system is only giving the computer 12.5 to 12.0 at WOT. So that will have to fixed so the computer doesn't shut down you should be able to hold about 13.0 at WOT and 13.8 at idle and cruise.

Anyway power does seem to be a problem. I have put the charger on the battery on the dyno this time and also when Dave tuned it so keeping voltage up seems to be a recurring problem. Might throw a tester on the battery as well and load test it.

Ken

Ken,

The drop in voltage at wide open throttle is pretty common and my 91 SC does the same thing. It's not a good thing, but I don't think it is what is causing the problems you are describing. If you look at this data log from Chris Vinning's car you can see that battery voltage was at 12.3 at the top end of 1st gear.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48243&d=1304393414

I would like mine to stay above 13 volts at all times, and have been exploring several options to make that happen. I already replaced the 3" diameter underdrive pulley with a custom 2.625" diameter pulley. That helped, but didn't totally cure the problem of low voltage at idle (was as low as 11.9 volts) after the motor warms up. I'm currently working with Victor on a custom built version of the stock alternator that will put out more AMPs and more voltage.

I also think at least part of the problem with mine is the Optima battery.

David

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 11:52 AM
Ken,

The drop in voltage at wide open throttle is pretty common and my 91 SC does the same thing. It's not a good thing, but I don't think it is what is causing the problems you are describing. If you look at this data log from Chris Vinning's car you can see that battery voltage was at 12.3 at the top end of 1st gear.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48243&d=1304393414

I'm currently working with Victor on a custom built version of the stock alternator that will put out more AMPs and more voltage.

I also think at least part of the problem with mine is the Optima battery.

David

I would like to keep my stock alternator as I had the case chromed on it.

Ken

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 11:54 AM
How did you wire the pump? Does is shut off after a few seconds when the key is in the on position, engine not running?


No it will run continious with the key on. It is hooked to the fuel pump relay

Ken

Micahdogg
05-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Wow, 21.5 psi with a leaky IC tube? Nice!

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 11:58 AM
My power wire is run direct off of the alternator to a relay thats spliced into the pump harness at the tank. The stock factory fuel pump power wire is used to turn on the realy thus allowing the pump to function just like it was with the stock wiring. You might go back and look at doing this so it doesn't come on when not needed.

David Neibert
05-03-2011, 12:02 PM
My power wire is run direct off of the alternator to a relay thats spliced into the pump harness at the tank. The stock factory fuel pump power wire is used to turn on the realy thus allowing the pump to function just like it was with the stock wiring. You might go back and look at doing this so it doesn't come on when not needed.

That's the same way mine is wired.

David

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 12:02 PM
My power wire is run direct off of the alternator to a relay thats spliced into the pump harness at the tank. The stock factory fuel pump power wire is used to turn on the realy thus allowing the pump to function just like it was with the stock wiring. You might go back and look at doing this so it doesn't come on when not needed.


I have the same setup except my direct power wire comes off the battery. The pump is under the battery area next to the fuel cell

Ken

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 12:05 PM
Wow, 21.5 psi with a leaky IC tube? Nice!

Little tiny pinhole on the top of the return tube. The chrome guys had to polish the tubes to chrome them and likey opened up a pin hole flaw in the weld. Sucks that it is right on the top of the tube as I will have to have the tube rechromed after I tig it shut

Ken

rzimmerl
05-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Its the same off of the battery, but I think your relay might be installed wrong if your pump stays running and doesn't shut off after a few seconds with the key on like it did when wired stock.

mywhite89
05-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Its the same off of the battery, but I think your relay might be installed wrong if your pump stays running and doesn't shut off after a few seconds with the key on like it did when wired stock.

I agree, maybe your relay is bad otherwise.

S_Mazza
05-03-2011, 02:05 PM
Little tiny pinhole on the top of the return tube. The chrome guys had to polish the tubes to chrome them and likey opened up a pin hole flaw in the weld. Sucks that it is right on the top of the tube as I will have to have the tube rechromed after I tig it shut

Ken

Could JB-Weld the pinhole and put a dot of chrome paint over it.

XR7 Dave
05-03-2011, 02:32 PM
I agree, maybe your relay is bad otherwise.

The relay can't be bad because otherwise it would run ALL the time. There is still a problem with Ken's wiring if the pump is not under the control of the EEC.

Ken's car has some sort of an electrical issue that has yet to be solved. It runs fine with a chip installed but if any other equipment is connected to the car then it has issues (including using a SNEEC type device). He's replaced the EEC and most of the wiring several times but somehow is still missing the primary issue. Almost certainly it has to do with a ground loop which could be caused by a poor connection in the main EEC wiring harness or even some other place.

XxSlowpokexX
05-03-2011, 03:16 PM
At LEAST YOUR CAR MAKES POWER!!!!!! Im attacking my car this weekend.

And Ken..Definitely somethings up if its running fulltime. You ran new wires to your pump right? Are you using factory pump wire to switch your relay?

David Neibert
05-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Ken,

Is this your first dyno pull since installing the looser 9.5" converter ?

David

CMac89
05-03-2011, 05:43 PM
My car's voltage drops to the 11s, during WOT. I'm pretty sure it's because of the A1000. It pulls about 20 amps at 65PSI.

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 06:02 PM
My car's voltage drops to the 11s, during WOT. I'm pretty sure it's because of the A1000. It pulls about 20 amps at 65PSI.

What are you running for an alternator?

Ken

kenewagner
05-03-2011, 06:50 PM
Ken,

Is this your first dyno pull since installing the looser 9.5" converter ?

David

No I ran a couple of pulls at the end of the day at the shootout. It glitched there as well when the lap top was data logging.

Ken

CMac89
05-03-2011, 07:11 PM
What are you running for an alternator?

Ken

I have the stock one. Definitely want a 200 amp alternator.

Micahdogg
05-04-2011, 10:48 AM
I'm betting Casey has a stock alternator that was sitting outside behind a tool shed for 3 years, and still has grass clippings inside the housing and some rusty ribs.

90blkbrd
05-04-2011, 01:11 PM
No I ran a couple of pulls at the end of the day at the shootout. It glitched there as well when the lap top was data logging.

Ken

So the TC was installed between the June Lincoln Dyno tune and the October shootout?

kenewagner
05-04-2011, 02:02 PM
So the TC was installed between the June Lincoln Dyno tune and the October shootout?

Now your testing my sometimes memory:rolleyes: No It was in at the dyno in lincoln as well. Almost ready to start saving my money to bring Dave back to Nebraska. Im sure he could get it right

Ken

David Neibert
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Now your testing my sometimes memory:rolleyes: No It was in at the dyno in lincoln as well. Almost ready to start saving my money to bring Dave back to Nebraska. Im sure he could get it right

Ken

Ken,

Can you post the Lincoln and Shootout dyno sheets for comparison ?

David

kenewagner
05-04-2011, 03:39 PM
Ken,

Can you post the Lincoln and Shootout dyno sheets for comparison ?

David

I have the sheet from the dyno in lincoln where I hit 399.9 but it has a huge drop in the middle of that run as well so I dont have a good comparrasion there. I have no idea where the shootout dyno sheet went to. So I dont have have much of anything to show for all the work

Ken