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TheAWK
06-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Hey guys,

so i took two care and made one and lost all of my original r12.

Now R12 is no longer legal for sale in Canada so i see three options and look for any input that can be offered.

1) find somer12 in the states and have it shipped north.

2) get the system converted with new oils for 134a

3) stick in a couple cans of12a refrigerant and let it run/

Please add any input you have about which is the best option?

Breadsax
06-02-2011, 03:20 PM
Good luck trying to find some r12 in the states :) I heard it goes for a good price on the black market. Might have better luck shipping it up from Mexico, not sure if their government has banned it yet?

S_Mazza
06-02-2011, 04:06 PM
You can buy all the R12 you want in the US ... as long as you have the right certification.

If you can study and take a test and have $20, it can be yours in one day.

http://www.macsw.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Section_609

There is a fair amount of R12 on eBay.

No new R12 is being manufactured in the US. But whatever is recovered can be recycled and resold.

...

From what I hear, the hydrocarbon refrigerants work about as well as R12. However, they are not necessarily legal. They are flammable (although compressed R134a, mixed with air, is flammable too). Check your country's laws.

MSwen22780
06-03-2011, 01:57 PM
R12 is still available and the last statement was correct about certification. No retailer will sell you this without it and the test is super easy. If you are wanting to do the conversion, dont be cheap and just replace oil. These are the people that complain that its not as cold. If you are wanting to do the conversion, I would replace the the condensor, accumulator, liquid line (has orfice tube crimped inline and flush the evaporator. I would even go as far as replacing the compressor. If you want something to work right, don't take short cuts.

ecyrbh
06-03-2011, 04:58 PM
If it is done properly,you can get excellent results with R134a conversion..I did my 91 myself,but as posted earlier,it is worth it to replace everything possible,flush and clean what you can,and don't skimp on the parts...My 91 with black leather interior will freeze you out of it on a 100 degree day here in south Texas

S_Mazza
06-03-2011, 10:54 PM
As far as issues specifically related to the refrigerant swap, I think the condenser and orifice tube (in the liquid line) are the most important things. They are constructed differently for R134a vs R12, so those will definitely affect the system's performance.

Now as far as the rest of the system goes ... age really beats up the seals in these systems. I am in the middle of replacing most of the system on my car. The o-rings are really flattened out. I think the system was leaking from at least two places. It was completely empty of refrigerant when I started working on it. (The A/C has never worked in the 5 years I have owned the car.) And since the system has been opened, the accumulator's desiccant is saturated. It may be possible to save the desiccant with deep vacuum and heat, but there could be contamination in there, and it's just old, so you should probably replace it. Replacement accumulators are really cheap ... like, $25. The compressor might be okay, but at its age, it might also be on the way out. I haven't opened the compressor yet, but I think it lost some of the internal seals ... because the condenser was full of fine dust. I flushed it out with lots of compressed air and some solvent. I did the same with the evaporator and got a decent amount of old oil and dye out of it.

I got my certification and found a few NOS cans of R12, so I am almost ready to get the system back together. I am looking forward to testing it out.

fturner
06-04-2011, 07:31 AM
R12a is a good way to go. It will work in either a R12 system or a R134 system. I'd recommend getting the system "vacuum'd" so to speak before switching over.

I've tried it in my car and it was way colder than the R134, and the compressor wasn't working as hard from what my datalogging shows which means better fuel economy.

Don't believe the crap out there saying its dangerous blah blah blah.... there isn't enough in the system to cause anything other than a flash if it did some how light off, and you are in more danger having gasoline in your car :rolleyes:.

Fraser

Thrust89SC
06-26-2011, 04:59 PM
My system was changed to Freeze-12. Not sure what it is, but it cost nothing in parts, totally cheap for the fill like less than $50, and I was cruising in the SC yesterday, outside temp was mid 80's, and cool as a (insert your favorite icy beverage here).

bowez
06-26-2011, 05:26 PM
Here in the US the Hydro-carbon replacements for R12 legality vary from state to state. Basiclly meaning find a state where you can get it, and get it installed anywhere.

Ddubb
06-26-2011, 05:28 PM
I got my certification and found a few NOS cans of R12, so I am almost ready to get the system back together. I am looking forward to testing it out.

How long is your certification good for ?? I am taking a class this summer for mobile AC systems.


- Dan

S_Mazza
06-26-2011, 07:46 PM
How long is your certification good for ?? I am taking a class this summer for mobile AC systems.

- Dan

Good for life! It only applies to the purchase and use of the refrigerants.

sdw
06-26-2011, 10:53 PM
Having worked in the Refrigeration industry for 27 years go with R12a.

The changeover is a pain and you will b=have great performance with the subsitute.

But if you have opened the system a vacuum pump and a new drier / accumulator is important


Regards

Sean

TheAWK
06-27-2011, 10:10 AM
Thanks for all the input guys.

Going to pump in from 12A today

TbirdSCFan
06-27-2011, 12:16 PM
R12a is a good way to go.

Don't believe the crap out there saying its dangerous blah blah blah.... there isn't enough in the system to cause anything other than a flash if it did some how light off, and you are in more danger having gasoline in your car

If you guys can use HC gas as a refrigerant it in Canada, that's great for you. We can't use it legally here in the US. So why keep selling the point? R134a works OK and its legal. :rolleyes:

BTW, you don't even need Rxx anything. You can pull your BBQ tank over and use that; propane works just a well.

bowez
06-27-2011, 06:14 PM
If you guys can use HC gas as a refrigerant it in Canada, that's great for you. We can't use it legally here in the US. So why keep selling the point? R134a works OK and its legal. :rolleyes:

BTW, you don't even need Rxx anything. You can pull your BBQ tank over and use that; propane works just a well.

Hydrocarbon replacement legality varies by state. They are totally legal in GA for one.

Last time I checked no one has ever been pulled over for a state DOT official to check your air conditioner refrigerant.

TbirdSCFan
06-27-2011, 06:44 PM
Hmmmm... http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html :confused:

rickbtbird
06-27-2011, 07:03 PM
IMO it's a no brainer. Get the system converted and be done with it.

fturner
06-27-2011, 07:35 PM
If you guys can use HC gas as a refrigerant it in Canada, that's great for you. We can't use it legally here in the US. So why keep selling the point? R134a works OK and its legal. :rolleyes:

BTW, you don't even need Rxx anything. You can pull your BBQ tank over and use that; propane works just a well.

If you take a look, Awk is from the great white north, so he's totally legal to use it :rolleyes:.

Fraser

bowez
06-27-2011, 08:47 PM
Ok, so by Hydrocarbons the EPA means Propane/Butane. Though I through Freeze-12 in there too--which its legality does vary by state.

Though what's the issue guys will run HID/ NO2 and various other DOT illegal items on their cars.

Ddubb
06-30-2011, 03:09 PM
Ok, so by Hydrocarbons the EPA means Propane/Butane. Though I through Freeze-12 in there too--which its legality does vary by state.

Though what's the issue guys will run HID/ NO2 and various other DOT illegal items on their cars.

The Propane and Butane are Flammable .. last thing you want is an explosion or gasses leaking inside of the vehicle cabin.

The Freeze-12 is a replacement for R12 .. it is 80% R134a.

TbirdSCFan
06-30-2011, 04:18 PM
The Freeze-12 is a replacement for R12 .. it is 80% R134a. The "12" is also just gimic labelling.. has nothing whatsoever to do with freon. Why are we discussing this with Canadians anyway.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come visit me in Texas where I'll say "howdy pardner. Have an ice tea.. :D

fturner
06-30-2011, 08:46 PM
The "12" is also just gimic labelling.. has nothing whatsoever to do with freon. Why are we discussing this with Canadians anyway.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come visit me in Texas where I'll say "howdy pardner. Have an ice tea.. :D

You got a point, we're just a bunch of beer drinking blubbering idiots that still live in igloo's and drive supercharged dog sleds eh :cool:

Fraser

S_Mazza
07-01-2011, 09:57 AM
You got a point, we're just a bunch of beer drinking blubbering idiots that still live in igloo's and drive supercharged dog sleds eh :cool:

Fraser

Maple syrup and snow's what you export. You treat curling just like it's a real sport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjLQ6uCw2g8

Actually, thanks for the syrup, snow, beer, hockey, and shale oil. I enjoy all of those things. :)

TbirdSCFan
07-01-2011, 11:55 AM
Actually, thanks for the syrup, snow, beer, hockey, and shale oil. I enjoy all of those things. :) I want to know whatever happened to moosehead beer? :confused:

shoalcracker
07-01-2011, 09:58 PM
I want to know whatever happened to moosehead beer? :confused:

When summer rolls around we have trade restrictions in place with the Brewery's to ensure we have enough for local consumption.

With the warmer than normal winter, weve had to cut off a lot of exports to ensure there is enough for the weekly bon fire.

Paul

S_Mazza
07-01-2011, 10:24 PM
When summer rolls around we have trade restrictions in place with the Brewery's to ensure we have enough for local consumption.

With the warmer than normal winter, weve had to cut off a lot of exports to ensure there is enough for the weekly bon fire.

Paul

I guess I will settle for some Fin Du Monde then.

Just kidding, never tried Moosehead. Sounds interesting.

fturner
07-02-2011, 07:30 AM
The Propane and Butane are Flammable .. last thing you want is an explosion or gasses leaking inside of the vehicle cabin.

The Freeze-12 is a replacement for R12 .. it is 80% R134a.

Its a proven point that there is insufficient propane and butane in the system to cause any kind of explosion... the most you'll get is a flash from it. It has also been proven that you are in more danger of the gasoline in your car than this stuff... so what, do we all now stop using gasoline?

2 little cans of this stuff, and it has the destructive power to obliterate your car? If that was the case, I can assure you the Canadian government would NOT have allowed the use of it, let alone allow selling this stuff in Walmart... The government here are vary anal about whats allowed, heck half the stuff you guys are allowed to purchase off the shelf is not allowed in Canada because its deemed too dangerous for consumer use.

Do your research.... there's a reason why your government has banned it for the most point... and how R134a is actually not an ideal refrigerant for a car. There's plenty of truth out there, including the fact that R134a is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Fraser

sdw
07-02-2011, 12:23 PM
I will agree with Mr Turner. Having been heavily involved in the refrigeration industry during the post Montreal Protocol years I can tell you R134a was not the only alternative but was championed by DuPont and that's the reason we have it today.

Propane and butane make fantastic refrigerants and are only flammable at very specific ratios. But propane and butane are really cheap and you can't patent either.

Regards

Sean

TbirdSCFan
07-02-2011, 12:36 PM
Well you guys are fortunate. I suppose if you have the fittings/adapters, theres no reason why you can't try out propane. IF I could, i would.

But till then, I'll guess I'll have to keep backing Dupont. Besides part of that money goes into sponsoring #24 which is driven by my favorite driver, Jeff Gordon. :D

S_Mazza
07-02-2011, 01:59 PM
New stuff is coming, too ...

Going to cost a lot, from what I hear ...

Although R134a is expensive now too!

http://www.aa1car.com/library/newac2k.htm

fturner
07-02-2011, 02:08 PM
Well you guys are fortunate. I suppose if you have the fittings/adapters, theres no reason why you can't try out propane. IF I could, i would.

But till then, I'll guess I'll have to keep backing Dupont. Besides part of that money goes into sponsoring #24 which is driven by my favorite driver, Jeff Gordon. :D

Fittings/Adapters???? My car was converted to to r134a and that the system I'm using with no retrofit to run r12a.

Fraser

Ddubb
07-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Its a proven point that there is insufficient propane and butane in the system to cause any kind of explosion... the most you'll get is a flash from it. It has also been proven that you are in more danger of the gasoline in your car than this stuff... so what, do we all now stop using gasoline?

2 little cans of this stuff, and it has the destructive power to obliterate your car? If that was the case, I can assure you the Canadian government would NOT have allowed the use of it, let alone allow selling this stuff in Walmart... The government here are vary anal about whats allowed, heck half the stuff you guys are allowed to purchase off the shelf is not allowed in Canada because its deemed too dangerous for consumer use.

Do your research.... there's a reason why your government has banned it for the most point... and how R134a is actually not an ideal refrigerant for a car. There's plenty of truth out there, including the fact that R134a is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Fraser

Yes .. we should stop using fossil fuels of all types, period.

Dont shop at Wall mart ... LOL

Dont live in Canada .. no clue what youre talking about.

I am doing research - taking an automotive A/C class right now in college. ( Trying to determine the proper amount of refrigerant for SC's which have been converted to the Shorter condensors - I havent been able to find it through Searching these forums )


- Dan

TbirdSCFan
07-03-2011, 12:11 PM
Fittings/Adapters???? In the states, each refrigerant has its own unique fitting. So I, for example, couldn't hook up my BBQ cylinder to my r134 charge line (yellow hose). I would need something with the loose end to fit onto the BBQ tank. Your cans of r12a probably have the right fitting.

S_Mazza
07-03-2011, 10:10 PM
In the states, each refrigerant has its own unique fitting. So I, for example, couldn't hook up my BBQ cylinder to my r134 charge line (yellow hose). I would need something with the loose end to fit onto the BBQ tank. Your cans of r12a probably have the right fitting.

From what I hear from those who have converted to propane, the easiest thing was to take a propane torch attachment, cut off the tip, and braze it to an adapter.