'92 5-speed won't start - no help here

Pooch

Registered User
Posted problem on electrical forum three days ago - got nothing! Car started right up after being on jackstands for two years. Idled smoothly in driveway for 15 min. Died while backing into garage. Won't restart. Can crank it for 20 min and it doesn't even attempt to fire. Tach bounces once per rev while cranking. Upshift light goes out while cranking. Jumpred diag plug and got 33, 12, 13 codes from MIL light. Numbers are seemingly meaningless.

Read all of the "won't start" threads on every forum. Seems that noone ever solved this problem on any car. There are no good schematics available anywhere. There are no wiring diagram pictures with connector identifications. There are no knowledgeable people around anymore as far as I can tell.

Before I set this immaculate 1992 5-speed with a pristine black leather interior on fire, please tell me why SCCOA is no longer a resource to MN12 SC owners?
 
Hey make sure all the ground wires are not corroded, could be that, over time that could happen.
 
I had a similar problem with an intermittent IRCM relay to the fuel pump. It would run then die for no reason. I changed everything on it, then ohm'ed the relay box and it was bad.

Does the fuel pump prime the motor?

Justin
 
Won't start

Is the fuel 2 years old? Is there fuel in it? Do you have fuel pressure?

Have you unplugged cam position sensor and tried to crank 3 times
 
Your bad attitude wont help you at all. Also the first things I would do if my car died ..

Pooch check for fuel..no Id rather complain about not getting help
Pooch check for spark...no I'd rather complain about not getting help
Pooch..why did you check code wihout checking the above....I'd rather complain abou not getting help

Now if we kne the ansers to those questions it be MUCH MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MAY BE WRONG.

Cars been sitting..ran and died...first thing ID DO..check fuel..Pressure or not? change fuel filter Hav epressure no start....Id get some good gas in thier

ALSO...bodwork?..See if MAF elements got dirty

This isnt rocket science...Your car was running then it died..SO get to it
 
Really?

Read all of the "won't start" threads on every forum. Seems that noone ever solved this problem on any car. There are no good schematics available anywhere. There are no wiring diagram pictures with connector identifications. There are no knowledgeable people around anymore as far as I can tell.

This is just a joke, right? Or are you a child? Tantrums are no way to get help. I know these cars can be frustrating, but come on.

My car wouldn't be on the road if it weren't for the guidance given by the folks on this board.

Remember what your Mom taught you and say "Please and Thank you".
 
schematics and diagrams are available from any number of resources. I use www.alldatadiy.com for my 90 and 93 and find the information is fairly comprehensive with electrical and connector diagrams.
 
Love all your responses. Yes I was acting out of frustration. I know that an engine needs fuel, air, and spark. The most likely problem is a fuel clog or the crank sensor. Both are a pain in the ~~~ to deal with. It seems that the only real way to deal with the gas is to drop the tank which I have done before on my 95 - tough to do though with 15 gals of gas in it. The crank sensor is also a major pain in the ~~~ as it requires draining the oil and dicking around with a tight area to work in.

To say it calmly, what I hoped for was an archive of technical info and experience that made the whole job somewhat more than just shotgunning filters, relays, fusible links, sensors and fluids. It seemed to me, given the thousands of man-years of experience available that things would have moved beyond the diagnostic approach that I used on my 59 Impala back in 69.

Fuel pump cranks up runs and shuts off properly when ignition is turned on. Tach bounces once per revolution when cranking. Upshift light flickers once per rev when cranking. Don't know what and where all of the connectors relays and sensors are that are involved in the ignition system. Just thought that there might have been resources available that described components, sequences and computer operation (simplified algorithm description) that would present the operation of the system.

I have no problem with the stone-age approach if that's all there is.

Thanks for your replies.
 
Reasonable sure that you don't have to drain the oil to get at the crank sensor. It's just by the harmonic balancer.

Check all fuses, see if any are blown. Check fuel pressure at the rail. Check for spark. Make sure the MAF isn't dirty. If I had to venture a guess, I would go with either the crankshaft position sensor, or perhaps the cam syncro jumped.
 
Thanks again for input and offers of help.

My car has a five-eights hard line that feeds the fuel filter mounted on same stud as balancer cover bolt on passenger side and the oil filter blocking the nut on the other side. I have neither small fingers or hands so no way I'm gettin at crank position sensor without draining oil etc.

Found KOEO codes and, from what I read, in the sequence 33, 12, 13: the 33 is meaningless or just means that it is the start of the code sequence. 12 means that RPM not within upper limit. 13 means RPM not within lower limit.

Should I interpret this to mean that the computer lost it's ability to sense engine RPM? If so, is the source of RPM input the crank position sensor or is it some other sensor? If it is, I feel far more comfortable about changing it.

Is the raw crank positioner pulse used directly for RPM or is it combined with other sensor input to generate RPM? Is the once-around pulse set up to indicate TDC?

Crismiss were you just yanking my chain RE the three revolutions and the cam position sensor?
Thanks again for your help.
 
No, really. Mine wouldn't run, but it would pop a little through the open headers at the time. -- Unplugged the cam sensor... Ba-da-bing. so the next step was a search on cam timing, found some pics, problem solved.
 
Upshift light should not flicker when cranking. If it is indeed flickering during crank, then most likely it does have a bad sensor and the cause of the bad sensor stands a high probability of being tied to a bad harmonic balancer. Do some reading on diagnosis and repair procedures.

It is not necessary to either drain oil, coolant, or anything else dramatic to change the crank sensor. Some patience and a good light go a long way. I once changed one on the side of the road for a member here with only a couple common wrenches and sockets (well and a jack because the car was pretty low, lol).

If you need to change fuel, you can pump the tank dry just by engaging the relay. I'm pretty sure instructions are posted here somewhere also. Before assuming you have bad gas, check pressure.

I don't normally expect a no-start condition to generate any codes, particularly if the car did run and then suddenly quit. But in any rate, there are no meaningless codes. School yourself on how to properly read codes and report that actual codes rather than guessing. Codes will be sent 2x in sequence so if you don't get two complete identical sets of codes then you missed something and need to do it again. Also, your car has 3 digit codes, not 2 digit.
 
Last edited:
Not finished yet. Cable was routed behind idler/AC bracket. Had to remove rad fan, belts, lower tensioner, water pump pully, crank pulley, and idler/AC bracket to remove it. Has really small bolts (5.5mm or 7/32") so I had toget the right deep well socket to get at it. Based on Haynes manual, it looks like the sensor was installed wrong. It seems that it was upside down with the two exposed metal "contacts" positioned near the vane on the balancer. According to Haynes the blocking vane is supposed to be positioned in the "air gap" on the sensor which would be a whole different setup than the way it was.

Can anyone confirm Haynes install? Thanks.
 
The crank and cam sensor are hall effect sensors and both use an air gap where there is a sensing portion on two sides of a slot which creates an air gap that the vane should pass through.

Use a matchbook cover or similar thickness cardboard strip to set the distance of the sensor from the metal vane on the back of the crank pulley. Once you have things tightened down, you may want to manually turn the crank to ensure the vane does not contact the sensor due to a bent vane.
 
Finally had time to put everything back together and she started on first crank. The problem was the crank sensor. The codes that I read were evidently stored when the sensor failed as they were running codes. Have a new issue now: when I rev the engine, just as the RPMs settle back to idle, there is a vibration in the engine that feels like a balance issue. I did mark the pulleys and the balancer when I removed them and did replace them properly, however, while I had it off I cleaned up some rust on the pulleys and repainted them. Will this change the balance enough to be noticeable?

Old balancer is in good shape other than surface rust. Should I replace it? If so, with what? A stock replacement or some type of dynamic balancer? Recommendations?

Thanks.
 
make sure the pully is running true and not wobbling as the car idles. The vibration could be any number of things. Are the motor mounts properly supporting the motor?
 
Back
Top