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View Full Version : E85 Dyno Results So Far



Super Duper Cou
09-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Mods: Full intake, full exhaust, custom fmic, custom raised top, ported late model blower and ported late model inlet plenum, 10% sc pulley, 10% jackshaft pulley, shorter gates sc belt, tensioner springs, 80lbs injectors, 255lph fuel pump, and sct chip.

Having my 1993 automatic super coupe dyno tuned on e85. Getting belt slip at 4 grand right now. A/F ration is good they said. It's making max power with 24 degrees of timing. I got a stock sc pulley off of a 90 sc, still waiting on a 10% crank pulley for like a month now. I also put magna flow mufflers on and got rid of my flow master style mufflers. So far it's making 269rwhp and 391rwtq @ 16.5psi of boost. Once i get my crank pulley I'll have them put it back on the dyno and try it again.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2jc7lmb.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/30c1zj4.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/28wj95s.jpg

94v6kid09
09-09-2011, 04:27 PM
very nice numbers

Mike8675309
09-09-2011, 04:37 PM
where did you start at when looking for max power? Did you ever try going to smaller numbers, or just going up to larger numbers?

David Neibert
09-09-2011, 05:07 PM
An MP inlet plenum would really help your combo. Stock plenum can't be ported larger than about 68mm. What size TB are you using ?

David.

r1dd1ck913
09-09-2011, 05:08 PM
I was going to say it looks like you left out a few things. Looks like you have a 75mm tb and an A/C delete.

Super Duper Cou
09-09-2011, 05:26 PM
I talked to my friend who tuned it and I believe he backed the timing way off to start and then kept adding timing after each pull until it didn't make any more power. I got a 75mm throttle body and the ac is deleted. The MP inlet plenum would probably help my car a lot but I don't feel like spending anymore money. :p I bet if my car had an mpx it could make around 300rwhp which is pretty good I think considering it has the stock heads and cam through an automatic. Right now though I'm hoping it will see 280rwph with my magna flows and no belt slip. It should make peak power at around 4400rpm, right now it looses boost at 4 grand cause of the sc belt slipping.

decipha
09-09-2011, 10:55 PM
work the heads and you'll make 350rwhp very easily

Super Duper Cou
09-10-2011, 07:00 PM
work the heads and you'll make 350rwhp very easily

Haha I don't know about that much but i could see it putting like 310rwhp with some head work done. I think it would be an epic win though if i made 300rwhp with an m90 through an auto with stock heads and cam! :D

seawalkersee
09-12-2011, 12:37 AM
Well...I will say that there is a good possibility that you could hit 300, but it would be a long stretch. BUT...it depends on how much more boost you think you can get. I bet you can get close, but I think you may need at LEAST 1.7 RRs on top of the other mods listed.

SWS

fturner
09-12-2011, 08:54 AM
Considering how much OD you have on that blower with a stock plenum, your losing power..... period.

A properly ported blower with the MP plenum maxes out flow at 15%OD and even then its starting to be just a big heat pump thats robbing a lot of power off the crank for nothing.

A stock plenum can only flow about 550cfm max, and that falls right in with the power you are making at this point, so guess what, your not going any further.

Stock heads and cam on an auto car even with an MPX will more than likely not make 300rwhp... again its all about physics and how much air actually makes it into the cylinder.

An MPX with a good cam and good heads might squeak to 350rwhp. There's not many cars that have done that without some help.

Fraser

DrFishbone
09-12-2011, 11:26 AM
Considering how much OD you have on that blower with a stock plenum, your losing power..... period.

Congrats on the numbers! I'd have to agree with Fraser on the OD though.

You should try changing out your SC pulley & belt for a stock size and try the process again (10% total OD). :cool: Not only would this help with your belt slip, your ACT's would stay lower (I'm assuming they got pretty warm - maybe not though if you have a really good FMIC). Not to mention, less wear on the supercharger. :)

I'm interested in what you find...I'm considering bumping my OD from 10% to 15%. I'm thinking it will work well on cooler days, but on warmer days (90F-100F+), my ACT's get up to 120F (which is where timing starts to be pulled) by about 5500RPM.

Super Duper Cou
09-12-2011, 12:17 PM
Considering how much OD you have on that blower with a stock plenum, your losing power..... period.

A properly ported blower with the MP plenum maxes out flow at 15%OD and even then its starting to be just a big heat pump thats robbing a lot of power off the crank for nothing.

A stock plenum can only flow about 550cfm max, and that falls right in with the power you are making at this point, so guess what, your not going any further.

Stock heads and cam on an auto car even with an MPX will more than likely not make 300rwhp... again its all about physics and how much air actually makes it into the cylinder.

An MPX with a good cam and good heads might squeak to 350rwhp. There's not many cars that have done that without some help.

Fraser

Yeah people have been saying the stock inlet plenum is only good to about 10% od. If i did drop down to 10% od I bet i wouldn't lose more than like 10rwhp but I think i would probably be giving up mostly torque and torque is what you want to get these big cars to accelerate. My buddy's stock heads/cam automatic made 280rwhp with an mpx at 20% od on pump gas. His car was running about 18 degrees of timing, on E85 I'm running 24 degrees of timing. So i don't think 300rwhp with stock heads and cam through an automatic is totally impossible with these cars if you run E85.

Super Duper Cou
09-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Congrats on the numbers! I'd have to agree with Fraser on the OD though.

You should try changing out your SC pulley & belt for a stock size and try the process again (10% total OD). :cool: Not only would this help with your belt slip, your ACT's would stay lower (I'm assuming they got pretty warm - maybe not though if you have a really good FMIC). Not to mention, less wear on the supercharger. :)

I'm interested in what you find...I'm considering bumping my OD from 10% to 15%. I'm thinking it will work well on cooler days, but on warmer days (90F-100F+), my ACT's get up to 120F (which is where timing starts to be pulled) by about 5500RPM.

It would be interesting to test my car at 10% od and then try 20% od to see if there is any power and torque to gain but they charge like $120 an hour on the dyno and I've already spent $750. lol :p So I think I'll just have them finish my current tune at 20% od once I get my crank pulley. I honestly don't think it's loosing any power because of hot intake temps because with E85 you have cooler combustion temps so it shouldn't be pulling any timing. I really hope my crank pulley arrives here soon because I ordered that thing a little over a month ago. :o

fturner
09-12-2011, 01:16 PM
Actually, never mind......

Fraser

David Neibert
09-12-2011, 01:54 PM
I predict it gains some bottom end torque and loses at least 15 rwhp after installing the 10% crank pulley. E85 may be cooler in the combustion chamber, but your air charge temp sensor isn't going to know it, and will be pulling a lot of timing. More boost isn't the answer, more air into the cylinders at the same or less boost is what you really want.

David

Super Duper Cou
09-12-2011, 02:05 PM
I predict it gains some bottom end torque and loses at least 15 rwhp after installing the 10% crank pulley. E85 may be cooler in the combustion chamber, but your air charge temp sensor isn't going to know it, and will be pulling a lot of timing. More boost isn't the answer, more air into the cylinders at the same or less boost is what you really want.

David

It won't loose any more power when I put the 10% crank pulley on because It's still going to be at 20% od. It won't make any more boost. It only gets belt slip at 4 grand. I just want to be able to make a full pull with no slip. You are right about the air charge temps though. The timing is set at 24 degrees but there is no way to to tell if the motor is actually getting that much timing. The act sensor could be pulling timing for all I know. I do have a big front mount intercooler with the fan blowing right in front of it to keep the act temps down on the dyno. Judging by my dyno numbers, do you think it's pulling timing?

BLOWN38
09-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Get a Quarter Horse and you can watch the timing fall off when temps get high or the computer detects knock.

I can post one of my logs when I get home showing the timing falling off when my ACT's hit 150.

David Neibert
09-12-2011, 03:42 PM
It won't loose any more power when I put the 10% crank pulley on because It's still going to be at 20% od. It won't make any more boost. It only gets belt slip at 4 grand. I just want to be able to make a full pull with no slip. You are right about the air charge temps though. The timing is set at 24 degrees but there is no way to to tell if the motor is actually getting that much timing. The act sensor could be pulling timing for all I know. I do have a big front mount intercooler with the fan blowing right in front of it to keep the act temps down on the dyno. Judging by my dyno numbers, do you think it's pulling timing?

Sorry for the missunderstanding, I thought you were talking about adding another 10% on top of what you already have. Based on the blower now slipping at 4000 rpms, if it does not slip you are still likely to see a reduction in power because the increased load on the crank to turn the blower and the heat being generated are going to consume more horse power than the additional boost produces. The slipping belt may actually be helping you now.

No way to tell what is actually happening without some type of device to monitor and datalog the dyno pulls like Chris suggested. Based on the amount of HP you are currently making, I'd say that Fraser is correct in saying it isn't going to get any better until you do some work on the heads or go to an aftermarket cam. Before overdriving the blower any harder, I'd suggest a MP inlet plenum or for even better results a more agressive cam. You can probably reach 300 rwhp with one that is mild enough to work with your stock valve springs.

David

XR7 Dave
09-12-2011, 03:51 PM
What kind of shop would tune one of these cars without a QH in 2011? Yikes. Tell them to take some of the $750 you paid them and get some modern tuning hardware/software. :)

Super Duper Cou
09-12-2011, 05:09 PM
Sorry for the missunderstanding, I thought you were talking about adding another 10% on top of what you already have. Based on the blower now slipping at 4000 rpms, if it does not slip you are still likely to see a reduction in power because the increased load on the crank to turn the blower and the heat being generated are going to consume more horse power than the additional boost produces. The slipping belt may actually be helping you now.

No way to tell what is actually happening without some type of device to monitor and datalog the dyno pulls like Chris suggested. Based on the amount of HP you are currently making, I'd say that Fraser is correct in saying it isn't going to get any better until you do some work on the heads or go to an aftermarket cam. Before overdriving the blower any harder, I'd suggest a MP inlet plenum or for even better results a more agressive cam. You can probably reach 300 rwhp with one that is mild enough to work with your stock valve springs.

David

For right now I'm just gonna have the tune finished and have fun with the car. If the blower takes a crap on me I'll buy an MPX and shoot for 300rwhp. I know it's WAY easier to reach 300rwhp with head work and a more aggressive cam but I think it would be neat to reach that number with stock heads and cam. :)

Super Duper Cou
09-12-2011, 05:13 PM
What kind of shop would tune one of these cars without a QH in 2011? Yikes. Tell them to take some of the $750 you paid them and get some modern tuning hardware/software. :)

I know your question is rhetorical but here is a link to the shops website lol: www.fastspecialties.com

I bought a QH chip from you back in December for them to use to tune my car but they didn't want to learn how to use it or if they did learn how to use it they would charge me like $2000 for a tune! :eek: So i sold the QH chip to some other guy on here and just went with the SCT chip because that's what fast specialties tuner was trained to use.

fasterthanyou
09-13-2011, 10:13 PM
sigh......

Super Duper Cou
09-13-2011, 10:23 PM
In other news...

http://i55.tinypic.com/v4axb4.jpg

paintme205
09-15-2011, 05:19 PM
Good to see some other thunderbird guys using e85. Did you ever try running 93 to see a comparison? I know they would have charged you another arm and leg but just curious.

I like the sticker...I keep debating which one I want on my car if any...

Super Duper Cou
09-15-2011, 06:37 PM
Good to see some other thunderbird guys using e85. Did you ever try running 93 to see a comparison? I know they would have charged you another arm and leg but just curious.

I like the sticker...I keep debating which one I want on my car if any...

Thanks man. Nah i didn't try running pump cause of the arm and a leg reason. lol :p It would be cool for someone to tune their car on pump and then tune it on E85 to see how much of a gain it is. I think my car on pump gas would probably make two fifty something, maybe 260 if i were lucky. lol I think you should get a sticker or emblem though, gotta represent the E85 bird crowd!

seawalkersee
09-16-2011, 09:51 AM
I think there were some people who have done that, but they were chastised because the tests were on different days or something stupid like that.

None the less, your setup is pretty sweet...Now what kind of milage do you get with them big ol injectors and the need for 33% more fuel.

SWS

Super Duper Cou
09-16-2011, 11:11 AM
I think there were some people who have done that, but they were chastised because the tests were on different days or something stupid like that.

None the less, your setup is pretty sweet...Now what kind of milage do you get with them big ol injectors and the need for 33% more fuel.

SWS

I thought dynos can correct the hp numbers for different temperature conditions outside? I thought i heard that somewhere but maybe I'm wrong. Do you remember what kind of results they found?

Thanks man. Haha I haven't gotten to test the gas mileage yet. I haven't driven the car in over a month. It's been sitting at Fast Specialties waiting for me to get the 10% od crankshaft pulley. I could get 20mpg around town on pump gas with a few less mods if I didn't use any boost and kept it in low rpm's. I bet I'll get like 15mpg hopefully. lol

seawalkersee
09-17-2011, 04:39 AM
Never really checked to see what the mods and such were, and some are not even site related here. But anytime you get somone who shows an improvement, someone always jumps on and says how the conditions were different.

Example of the Header test on Corral. One guy claimed 22 hp gain at the tire with long tubes and nothing else. Stuck to his guns, but it was brought up probably three times in the thread how the numbers were not correct because they did not do them the same day.

SWS

Super Duper Cou
09-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Never really checked to see what the mods and such were, and some are not even site related here. But anytime you get somone who shows an improvement, someone always jumps on and says how the conditions were different.

Example of the Header test on Corral. One guy claimed 22 hp gain at the tire with long tubes and nothing else. Stuck to his guns, but it was brought up probably three times in the thread how the numbers were not correct because they did not do them the same day.

SWS

Yeah I'll probably get some flack then when i re-dyno my car with my magnaflows and no belt slip. lol I could have sworn though that I heard somewhere that dyno's can correct for weather conditions so you'll get a consistent reading all the time.

David Neibert
09-17-2011, 12:58 PM
Yeah I'll probably get some flack then when i re-dyno my car with my magnaflows and no belt slip. lol I could have sworn though that I heard somewhere that dyno's can correct for weather conditions so you'll get a consistent reading all the time.

Please post the dyno results here...BTW, I'm still predicting a gain in peak torque and loss in peak HP.

David

Super Duper Cou
09-17-2011, 01:56 PM
Please post the dyno results here...BTW, I'm still predicting a gain in peak torque and loss in peak HP.

David

I'll post the results here as soon as I can. Still waiting on Charles to send me my crank pulley. He says he wants to send out every ones 95mm throttle bodies on Monday and then get to work on the crank pulleys. He says it takes two days to make them and should only take a day for me to receive it. So the earliest i can get my car dyno'd is probably by Friday. Even if my car doesn't make any more power from sustaining full boost up to 4400rpm. I predict that with just the magnaflows it'll loose a little low end torque and gain maybe 5rwhp in peak power.

seawalkersee
09-17-2011, 10:59 PM
Tough call on that one since the Magnaflows may give it enough of a drop in boost that it may pick up both with the SAME boost level and no slip.

SWS

Super Duper Cou
09-18-2011, 02:51 PM
Tough call on that one since the Magnaflows may give it enough of a drop in boost that it may pick up both with the SAME boost level and no slip.

SWS

Haha that would be pretty sweet.

seawalkersee
09-18-2011, 09:57 PM
Yeah...thats just childs thoughts playing in my head. It will still take the same number of HP to show that level of boost which means that the resistance will be close to the same.

SWS

Super Duper Cou
09-29-2011, 04:54 PM
Look what came in the mail today! :D

http://i52.tinypic.com/j9as0l.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/24dpi5l.jpg

Super Duper Cou
09-29-2011, 06:28 PM
Oh yeah and quick walk around of the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz1X0p-tre8

BLOWN38
09-29-2011, 08:20 PM
Looks good, but sounds like a lawn mower from the back.:)

Super Duper Cou
09-30-2011, 01:31 AM
Looks good, but sounds like a lawn mower from the back.:)

Thanks I just did a briggs and stratton swap to my bird this week! lol ;)

Super Duper Cou
10-01-2011, 02:51 PM
My 10% od crankshaft pulley has arrived! Hopefully my car will be done during the week! :)

http://i53.tinypic.com/etxrw5.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2cfv055.jpg

seawalkersee
10-03-2011, 12:10 AM
Make sure you cool that IC down...

SWS

Super Duper Cou
10-03-2011, 01:43 AM
Make sure you cool that IC down...

SWS

It'll be fine man, they have a fan blowing air onto the intercooler when it's on the dyno. It is still going to be at 20% od but hopefully with no belt slip this time. :)

Super Duper Cou
10-03-2011, 06:26 PM
They got everything on today and tuned it some more. It made 290rwhp and 408rwtq @ 17.5psi of boost. It's got a miss fire at 4400rpm though so I'm having them put in new plugs and wires and then see if that fixes it.

r1dd1ck913
10-03-2011, 06:52 PM
Thats not bad.

Super Duper Cou
10-03-2011, 10:45 PM
Thats not bad.

Thanks man. :) It's just shy of that 300 mark!

Super Duper Cou
10-05-2011, 12:13 AM
Here are the final results. I miss heard the dyno results I reported earlier. Instead of 290rwhp and 408rwtq, it actually made 286rwhp and 414rwtq. It only made 270rwhp @ 20% overdrive so they bumped it up to 30% overdrive and that's when it made the 286rwhp and 414rwtq.

http://i54.tinypic.com/1zdyu05.jpg

decipha
10-05-2011, 12:26 AM
yep shes maxed, time to go back to the drawing board, h/c/i time then make some real powah

Super Duper Cou
10-05-2011, 02:12 AM
yep shes maxed, time to go back to the drawing board, h/c/i time then make some real powah

The blower is maxed out. I still think it would make 300rwhp with an mpx @ 30% od. I will do head work and a cam in the future sometime probably. But for now I'm going to be happy with what I got and have some fun! :)

DriftingThunder
10-05-2011, 12:27 PM
30% OD on stock heads and cam sounds like it would be a real gasket tester to me! I'm afraid to go higher than 15% on stock heads and cam. :o

By the way, you are MAMH121890NWATNA on youtube, right? EDIT: Okay I missed your video link my first pass through the thread, nevermind haha!)

Super Duper Cou
10-05-2011, 01:05 PM
30% OD on stock heads and cam sounds like it would be a real gasket tester to me! I'm afraid to go higher than 15% on stock heads and cam. :o

By the way, you are MAMH121890NWATNA on youtube, right? EDIT: Okay I missed your video link my first pass through the thread, nevermind haha!)

Yeah it's a headgasket tester but my headgaskets were replaced like 26,000 miles ago and I've got the exhaust opened up. So i think they should be good for a while. I don't know if you've had your headgaskets replaced or not but I'd recommend you to run 30% overdrive on your mpx if you go to E85 because you are leaving around 15rwhp and 25rwtq on the table (maybe even a little more). If I can make 286rwhp @ 30% overdrive through an automatic with a ported late model blower/inlet plenum and stock heads/cam. Then you would make even more with your mpx and manual transmission! :cool:

Yeah I'm MAMH121890NWATNA on youtube. lol : )

David Neibert
10-06-2011, 12:00 AM
The blower is maxed out. I still think it would make 300rwhp with an mpx @ 30% od. I will do head work and a cam in the future sometime probably. But for now I'm going to be happy with what I got and have some fun! :)

I'm surprised you are making as much power as you are now with stock heads and cam. The only way I've ever seen anyone break 300 rwhp without doing heads or cam is when using nitrous, turbo or a twin screw blower.

David

DriftingThunder
10-06-2011, 02:48 AM
Yeah I'm MAMH121890NWATNA on youtube. lol : )

Ah ok, I am NewtypeAndy (I think you figured that out though?).

I don't think 300 rwhp without getting into the motor is that far-fetched nowadays, Dave. In fact, I was told by some WS6 idiot that we can't go 12s without spraying or getting into the motor with these cars, so I am going to go 12s without doing either. I'm actually quite close, and I think I just need some injectors, a QH1, tuning, and maybe some E85 to push me over the edge. Why do this? The pay-off when I get heads and a cam should be pretty extreme at that point I think--a desirable effect, and to prove that a stock short-block 3.8 can hang with LS1s, terminators and the like. But the point is, these days we have all sorts of nifty ways to cheat our way into 300 whp like E85, Snow kits, HD tensioner springs, etc. We just have to look at this car's weaknesses and attack them accordingly. Back in the early '00s, many seemed to be running 10% 8-rib pulleys and factory tensioner springs. Belts fiercely slipped all over the country. Now we have several answers to mostly tame them. Most mildly modded cars back then made laughable ACTs. We have more answers for that now too.

When I originally bought the MPx, I was planning on 25% OD but I'm scared. For one thing I peg my boost gauge at 3,600 rpm or so and it never seems to let up... My whole motor was rebuilt maybe 15,000 miles ago, so the HGs are somewhat fresh, but I'm a coward. Even with proper exhaust, I feel that stock cam and heads (maybe continued use of a DIC as well) are the only real reason my boost is so high, so early at a mild 15%. That's a bad thing. Stock cam and heads helps with low-end torque and boost arrives a hair faster, which helps, I think that's why my torque was at 375 even before the MPx. I just really don't wanna blow $**t up just yet. Especially when I actually have no idea how much boost it does or does not make (stock gauge, /sigh).

I don't want to hi-jack this thread though. I think the power Super Duper Cou is making with a ported M90 is pretty incredible to be honest. I felt that at 10% OD an M90 was just making absurd ACTs. That's partly what I attributed to frying my piston rings. I had to get away from it! I think E85 may help keep temps down more than we might suspect, among other perks. I honestly don't know how your power is that high on an Eaton M90 with stock heads/cam, but it tells a seemingly clear story about how easily many seem to under-estimate that combination.

I guess what Super Duper Cou and I are both trying to subliminally say with these cars is: there are actually different, viable routes to making decent, fun amounts of power. :)

Super Duper Cou
10-06-2011, 12:35 PM
Yeah I figured you were NewTypeAndy. :)

I don't think you should be worried about blowing your car up dude. I have 173,000 miles on my motor. As long as you have your car tuned properly it should be fine.

To be honest I'm not surprised that my car is making the power it is making. Most guys that have the same setup as me on here with less overdrive on pump gas make about 260rwhp. I'm running more overdrive and more timing with running E85 so 286rwhp sounds about right. I guess I am a little surprised that it gained 16rwhp going form 20% od to 30% od. Everyone has been telling me that I was losing power at 20% od on a ported late model blower/inlet plenum but in reality that wasn't the case. It actually benefited from running an additional 10% overdrive making the overall overdrive 30%.

David: I know 300rwhp hasn't been achieved with an mpx with stock heads/cam through an automatic but I'm willing to bet you could with E85. I've seen pictures of an mpx blower case an inlet plenum and compared them to my ported late model blower case an ported inlet plenum. There is no doubt in my mind that the mpx flows better than a ported late model. My buddy's automatic stock heads and cam super coupe made 280rwhp @ 20% overdrive on pump gas. I think it could gain 20rwhp from more timing and an additional 10% more overdrive on E85.

David Neibert
10-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Yeah...It must be the E85 and the ability to run with a more aggressive tune, that is making the difference. Wish that stuff was more widely available, because around here there are only a few places selling it.

David

DriftingThunder
10-06-2011, 04:59 PM
Well, my car is far from tuned properly. I puff black death clouds when I get on it (super rich) and the dyno sheet from prior to me owning the car showed a lot of spikes in the lines after like 3500 rpm (timing being pulled I presume). It is a safety tune because when James F. (Jazzy) owned this car it was on the stock fuel pump and leaned out hard up top with the 10% OD and very mild bolt-ons. The lean condition and the ACTs that haunted this car's past are what the tune still revolves around to this day, and I really need to re-tune it. Yay for QH1 group buy! :D Maybe then I'll think about getting a 10% crank pulley, but I'd still be worried sick all the time, haha!

The MPx is a really strong blower that was perhaps over-hyped when it was first introduced. That being said, I actually feel a vibe on here that it is under-credited nowadays. It's still a really strong blower!