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90coug
10-06-2011, 05:39 PM
Went to Bandimere Speedway with 92bird last night! It was my first time ever at a drag strip. What a blast, I see why you guys enjoy it so much.

I participated but only got to do one run before I broke a half shaft. I went to burn out a bit and ended up making a fool of myself in front of a crowd of people. Still, I left with a smile on my face. I got a 14.9 on my first and only run. Warm motor (130F+ ACTS), street tires, first time ever, shifted poorly and had my friend in the passenger seat along with all my crap in the back seat. I think I have potential for 13's

We believe the half shaft busted due to severely worn rear bearings and with the combo of wheel hop it decided to get up and quit.

Thanks for letting me share :p

fasterthanyou
10-06-2011, 05:54 PM
14.9 at what mph? get rid of your friend and the junk in the back. thats probably worth 300lbs. and 300lbs is about 0.3 seconds in the 1/4. don't run so much overdrive if your act's are getting in the 140F range. don't dump the clutch, launch easier, and you might get low 14's. your mph will really tell you what your car is capable of e.t. wise. if its a 96mph pass its good for 13's. 95 and slower is pretty much 14.0-14.2.

DriftingThunder
10-06-2011, 05:55 PM
I'm glad you had fun! Breaking a half-shaft is at least one of the better things to break if you ask me. I broke one at the track once a few years ago as well, and I attribute it mostly to wheel hop. Imagine it as though you are taking a 350-ish ft.lbs. impact tool to it and it's easy to see how it can break! Seems to me that is mostly what wheel hop does.

BLOWN38
10-06-2011, 07:01 PM
Thats pretty good up in that elevation too. What was the air temp?

90coug
10-07-2011, 11:12 AM
My time slip said 96.08MPH, I left the hole horrible and hit my rev limiter in 1st gear. I think the driver needs some help :p

Yea, of all things to go wrong an axle isn't so bad, as far as repairs go. Fortunately, I have several spares that were recently acquired.

I think the temps that night were in the low sixties, it was a brisk night. Perfect for racing!

Can't wait 'till next season!

David Neibert
10-07-2011, 11:41 AM
My time slip said 96.08MPH, I left the hole horrible and hit my rev limiter in 1st gear. I think the driver needs some help :p

Yea, of all things to go wrong an axle isn't so bad, as far as repairs go. Fortunately, I have several spares that were recently acquired.

I think the temps that night were in the low sixties, it was a brisk night. Perfect for racing!

Can't wait 'till next season!

With some race tires, I think you will be in the high 13s. Manual or automatic transmission ?

David

90coug
10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
With some race tires, I think you will be in the high 13s. Manual or automatic transmission ?

David

It's a manual; some slicks would be nice for next time. I read somewhere that you guys prefer the Hoosiers over the MT; maybe I'll see if I can find a set.

fasterthanyou
10-07-2011, 06:37 PM
slicks aren't needed. get a pair of nitto555R drag radials. they're not that expensive, they still get traction in rain just cruising, and they hook really well for a street/drag tire. lower the tire pressure to 20psi, get them heated up and they will stick the launch. just my biased opinion tho. :)

David Neibert
10-08-2011, 11:16 AM
Drag radials and manual transmissions are not a good mix. Sidewalls are too stiff and you would be much better off with a DOT slick like the M/T ET streets.

David

1MTNCAT
10-09-2011, 10:06 AM
Drag radials and manual transmissions are not a good mix. Sidewalls are too stiff and you would be much better off with a DOT slick like the M/T ET streets.

David

Exactly!!!!!! :)

jdsgallops
10-09-2011, 10:59 AM
Here we go again. I guess it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive or what forum you are on. Everyone says put a tire on it instead of learning how to drive it, ie the driver mod. My Cobra was dyno'd and made 320rwhp and 363 lb ft of torque. That wasn't the real story though. It AVERAGED 333lbft of torque. On a kuhmo 255/40/17 true street tire I went 12.91@111.67mph. 2.0 something 60ft. The problem wasn't getting the car off the line it was maintaining traction when shifting into 2nd. Switching the suggested nitto 555r above I went consistent 8.2x 1/8th's(never got back to 1/4 mile track) but most importantly the 330 time plummetwd because I maintained traction in 2nd. 60ft's didn't really drop that much, couple of high 1.8x but mostly 1.9x. Bottom line is learn the car and what it likes and do the driver mod before you throw anything else at it. Running 14's and 13's on true street tires is not hard it just takes patience. I was also very impressed with the tires ability in the rain the few times I got caught out in the Florida down pours. They may be labeled a drag radial but they are really a soft compound street tire with good tread life.

1MTNCAT
10-09-2011, 10:01 PM
Here we go again. I guess it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive or what forum you are on. Everyone says put a tire on it instead of learning how to drive it, ie the driver mod. My Cobra was dyno'd and made 320rwhp and 363 lb ft of torque. That wasn't the real story though. It AVERAGED 333lbft of torque. On a kuhmo 255/40/17 true street tire I went 12.91@111.67mph. 2.0 something 60ft. The problem wasn't getting the car off the line it was maintaining traction when shifting into 2nd. Switching the suggested nitto 555r above I went consistent 8.2x 1/8th's(never got back to 1/4 mile track) but most importantly the 330 time plummetwd because I maintained traction in 2nd. 60ft's didn't really drop that much, couple of high 1.8x but mostly 1.9x. Bottom line is learn the car and what it likes and do the driver mod before you throw anything else at it. Running 14's and 13's on true street tires is not hard it just takes patience. I was also very impressed with the tires ability in the rain the few times I got caught out in the Florida down pours. They may be labeled a drag radial but they are really a soft compound street tire with good tread life.

In some respects you are correct! And true most on here need more experience and seat time to get better performance out of their cars. In fact we probably all do. But with these cars with the weight, manual trans and halfshafts in them, generally speaking drag radials cause a lot of breakage due to suspension bounce etc. Even on basically stock cars. Is your Mustang car a solid axle or IRS? I know most of the later ones were IRS. What year? That makes a difference too. With that being stated per your quote "High 1.8's but mostly 1.9's 60's" makes me believe you also need to learn your car and may need other tires on that stick car that is making 320 WHP and 363 Ft lbs of torque. I'm not overly impressed with that on a 4 Valve stick car motor in a stang especially when my 2V auto car on street tires pulls low to mid 1.8's on street tires, not drag tires @ 257 HP and 300 LB ft of torque. You are leaving a lot on the table.

There is a lot more that could be stated here about this but thats the just of it.

I've been racing this platform for over 15 years so I do have some idea.

jdsgallops
10-10-2011, 12:04 AM
Here is the problem when you Assume things.

1) not a 2v or 4v car. 331 stroker motor on a 5 speed. Peak power @5300rpm so the powerband is very close to what you higher power sc guys are in. All Lowend torque not high rpm power. You t bird guys do realize there were Cobra's before the Modular engine right?

2) the suspension isn't set up for drags what so ever. Full underneath of the car is Steeda parts and is setup for autocross not drags. I like dual purpose cars that are safe and fun to drive on the street. I personaly don't care what my car will run on slicks because I will never drive it that way except on the track. I want "realistic" numbers of what you might expect if you were in the passenger seat.

3) reread the end of my post again. The nitto 555r is more of a soft compound street tire than a drag radial. The 555r's have a tread wear rating of 100. Go to a Micket Thompson Et drag radial and it is 0. Nitto basicly admitted the same thing by coming out with a more track orientated tire.

4) don't assume all Mustangs are light. My car is far from gutted. It is a street car I take to the track not a race car I drive on the street. I put it on the scale at Bradenton and weighed in at 3575lbs. Lighter than an Sc yep but far from what is considered light in drag standards.

5) yes there is potential left on the table. Potential that will never be realized because it won't have a drag specific suspension setup or drag specific tire put on it to realize that potential. My profession doesn't allow me to spend weekends at the track, I'm working. So I mostly attend unprepped TNT nights. The irony in this statement is the tune on the 12.91 pass was done by a well known national tuner at the time. I was very disapointed in that tune so took over tuning duties via tweecer. Dyno showed more power(the 320 number with the car running very hot at 220+) and as I continued to work on the tune and learn what the car liked the et's continued to drop with the consistent 8.2x 1/8's I mentioned. Considering I had an 1/8th mile track 30 min from th house not 2 hours to bradenton the nearest 1/4 I never got new 1/4 times with the drag radials. I do however log every pass I make with notes and charted changes in an excell program. Extrapolating those 1/8th mile numbers out with the gains I was typically seeing in the last 1/8th on the 1/4 mile track I should have seen a 12.4 to 12.5 pass on a 1.9x 60ft. I don't know many cars who can pull those numbers off.

6) bottom line is most of these guys here posting times aren't hard core racers out to make money with their cars. They are hobbiest who want to see what their hard work has paid off in. They only occasionally get to the track. In which case telling them to throw a better set of tires on the car is a waste of time. Telling them to learn the car will yield much better results. Not only immediately but also when they are truly ready to step it up and need those better tires for consistency and safety.

1MTNCAT
10-10-2011, 09:24 PM
Here is the problem when you Assume things.

1) not a 2v or 4v car. 331 stroker motor on a 5 speed. Peak power @5300rpm so the powerband is very close to what you higher power sc guys are in. All Lowend torque not high rpm power. You t bird guys do realize there were Cobra's before the Modular engine right?

2) the suspension isn't set up for drags what so ever. Full underneath of the car is Steeda parts and is setup for autocross not drags. I like dual purpose cars that are safe and fun to drive on the street. I personaly don't care what my car will run on slicks because I will never drive it that way except on the track. I want "realistic" numbers of what you might expect if you were in the passenger seat.

3) reread the end of my post again. The nitto 555r is more of a soft compound street tire than a drag radial. The 555r's have a tread wear rating of 100. Go to a Micket Thompson Et drag radial and it is 0. Nitto basicly admitted the same thing by coming out with a more track orientated tire.

4) don't assume all Mustangs are light. My car is far from gutted. It is a street car I take to the track not a race car I drive on the street. I put it on the scale at Bradenton and weighed in at 3575lbs. Lighter than an Sc yep but far from what is considered light in drag standards.

5) yes there is potential left on the table. Potential that will never be realized because it won't have a drag specific suspension setup or drag specific tire put on it to realize that potential. My profession doesn't allow me to spend weekends at the track, I'm working. So I mostly attend unprepped TNT nights. The irony in this statement is the tune on the 12.91 pass was done by a well known national tuner at the time. I was very disapointed in that tune so took over tuning duties via tweecer. Dyno showed more power(the 320 number with the car running very hot at 220+) and as I continued to work on the tune and learn what the car liked the et's continued to drop with the consistent 8.2x 1/8's I mentioned. Considering I had an 1/8th mile track 30 min from th house not 2 hours to bradenton the nearest 1/4 I never got new 1/4 times with the drag radials. I do however log every pass I make with notes and charted changes in an excell program. Extrapolating those 1/8th mile numbers out with the gains I was typically seeing in the last 1/8th on the 1/4 mile track I should have seen a 12.4 to 12.5 pass on a 1.9x 60ft. I don't know many cars who can pull those numbers off.

6) bottom line is most of these guys here posting times aren't hard core racers out to make money with their cars. They are hobbiest who want to see what their hard work has paid off in. They only occasionally get to the track. In which case telling them to throw a better set of tires on the car is a waste of time. Telling them to learn the car will yield much better results. Not only immediately but also when they are truly ready to step it up and need those better tires for consistency and safety.

Thanks for the input. Now I don't need to assume. I was assuming it was either an early foxbody or a later SN197 Cobra. Now I know. So you have a stroker 331 2V pushrod motor, T-5, and solid axle.

Since I know and in my 30 plus years of racing, I can't say I've ever actually seen a 3500 lb foxbody car even in street trim. You must have a lot of add ons. Since I've owned 3 that I don't assume I owned, they aren't nearly that heavy. They sure are not a 3800-4100 lbs SC. That I also know. Now the newer ones, thats another story.

Also, you can't compare apples to oranges. SC cars at around 4000 lbs and a lightweight tranny with an IRS car suspension wise is a whole lot different than a T-5, solid axle 33-3400 lb foxbody, solid axle car regardless of power levels or suspension. That my friend is where the tires come in.

As far as numbers, I agree whole heartedly. I have a 3800 lb boat anchor that can run numbers with full interior and the like. Its inspected street driven and I've got a lot less inches. Its really all in what you want. And as I said, in that configuration it pulls low to mid 1.8 60 fts on street tires. No special suspension tricks, no nothing. As far as the tire deal, once again I stand by what I said. I know these cars, I know what works on them and what doesn't. I've lunched a couple half shafts in my 4.6 car, automatic with Drag radials. Slicks and the softer sidewalls are more forgiving and help considerable. They may not work better in a foxbody but they do on an IRS.

Your data collecting is good. But you'll find its never quite the same as having a true time slip in hand. And, if you are running in Florida you also are running at or near sea level. Just some food for thought.

:)

jdsgallops
10-11-2011, 10:19 AM
Yes Bradenton is 50ft above sea level. IIRC you need a 3500 ft change to see any appreciable difference in performance. The weather will play a bigger role in Et's and Florida is hot and humid, killing power. I am willing to bet more than 75% of the tracks in this country are below 3500ft. Now that I am living in the hills of Tn I have tried to find elevation of the nearby tracks and it seems we are only about 500ft above sea level here. You are in Jersey. If you are running at Englishtown you have the same sea level "advantage".

Bradenton has two sets of scales. The digital ones don't come out on TNT days. This means on TNT days you get to use the old school drive on analog scale. So the 3575 is with driver. Don't really care what the car weighs without driver as I am not driving it via remote. With my dyno numbers, et's, and mph I can easily find out if that number is correct, and all the math worksout.

What I really find funny is how you are telling me the SC is at such a disadvantage but you have turned 1.8x 60's. So you cry about the independent rear, broken halfshafts, less cubes, weak transmissions and extra weight but can still pull 1.8's without any tricks? Gonna call a huge BS on that one based off your own words. Though it only reinforces my arguement, learn to drive the car don't "band aid" it. So please spill the beans. Was that 1.8 in an sc? What size and brand tire did you use? The brand of tire makes a huge differences they all use different compounds, some being more oily than others.

DrFishbone
10-11-2011, 01:33 PM
Glad you had fun Bryce - it's a blast for sure. :cool::D

With my 5-speed, my 26x11 M/T ET Streets will let me get a good, no-wheel hop burnout, then flex plenty on launch to soften the impact, and pull 1.8 60's. Now that I've set up my car, I've been practicing to find the right launching recipe - it's not easy.

Granted, I haven't tried everything else out there, nor is my 1/4mi process perfected, but I do know that if I get much less traction than I do with the warmed M/T's, the wheels will hop, which obviously slows you down...not to mention, will break something eventually (right Bryce?! ;)).

In my opinion, the reasons the M/T Streets and similar slicks work well with the 5speed SC is:

1) The ample side wall flex absorbs some of the impulse of the launch, softening the transition of power to the ground - lengthening the life of mechanical parts and helping reduce the probability of initial tire-spin.

2) Good grip when spinning the tires for the burnout keeps the suspension "bound" and prevents wheel hop. (Ever notice that the wheels hop easier and more severely when the roads are wet?)

If you want to go fast and avoid breaking parts with the 5-speed SC: DO NOT LET THE WHEELS HOP and GET TRACTION!!! :D:eek: The MT streets - even a $100 used set - will do that for you. It's up to the individual to decide how much they want to drag the car and whether the investment is worth it.

Sure, your 1/8mi, from-stoplight ET against the minivan next to you will not be as fast as when you ran it down the strip with the warmed slicks that one time...but no-one was watching anyway, right?

David Neibert
10-11-2011, 01:49 PM
6) bottom line is most of these guys here posting times aren't hard core racers out to make money with their cars. They are hobbiest who want to see what their hard work has paid off in. They only occasionally get to the track. In which case telling them to throw a better set of tires on the car is a waste of time. Telling them to learn the car will yield much better results. Not only immediately but also when they are truly ready to step it up and need those better tires for consistency and safety.


The reasons you stated in this paragraph are exactly why, a set of drag tires will show much better results than learning your car and trying to get the best traction possible on street tires. The real waste of time, is trying to get power to the ground using street tires. Even with a set of drag tires, they will still have to learn how to best launch the car, especially if it's got a manual transmission. Why waste that time learning how to launch the car on street tires when they are not the right tool for the job ?

David

BLOWN38
10-11-2011, 02:44 PM
Whoa! I left this thread alone for a few days and it blew up.:eek:


The reasons you stated in this paragraph are exactly why, a set of drag tires will show much better results than learning your car and trying to get the best traction possible on street tires. The real waste of time, is trying to get power to the ground using street tires. Even with a set of drag tires, they will still have to learn how to best launch the car, especially if it's got a manual transmission. Why waste that time learning how to launch the car on street tires when they are not the right tool for the job ?

David

I agree 100% with this.

ricardoa1
10-11-2011, 03:29 PM
I wont say never but I am not interested in running street tires on my SC at a 1/4mile track. Sure when the worlds are in algnment you can make good use of a nice of sticky nittos work. It worked well on my old terminator, but to me its not worth it in the SC. I have successfuly driven 3 times 850~miles to the shootout and have been able to return home without any drivetrain failures. I credit that to the tires. Both cars with over 350lbs and one full weight and another with maybe 100-150lbs weight redux.

The better then getting 14second slips and maybe on good low 13s high 12s like I did before.

neverfastenough
10-11-2011, 04:18 PM
My Cobra was dyno'd and made 320rwhp and 363 lb ft of torque. That wasn't the real story though. It AVERAGED 333lbft of torque.

Sweet numbers man:rolleyes:, Come launch my car on nitto DR's off the 2 step not raping my clutch, tell me how them drivetrain parts hold up:eek: Drivng is defintely a key part, but sometimes you need some tire once the power gets up there to relieve drivetrain stresses no ones foot is capable of. And if you tried youd go slower and slower

Edit: not knocking your numbers by the roll eyes, but you're on a forum of hardcore roots and twin screw cars that put down a lot more than 363tq and weigh more than a mustang. And for some reason all these hard core blower dudes like putting down that tq at RPM's only seen when pulling stumps out. Sorry its been awhile since Ive made fun of them. Full boost at 2500FTW

XR7 Dave
10-11-2011, 04:26 PM
What I really find funny is how you are telling me the SC is at such a disadvantage but you have turned 1.8x 60's. So you cry about the independent rear, broken halfshafts, less cubes, weak transmissions and extra weight but can still pull 1.8's without any tricks? Gonna call a huge BS on that one based off your own words. Though it only reinforces my arguement, learn to drive the car don't "band aid" it. So please spill the beans. Was that 1.8 in an sc? What size and brand tire did you use? The brand of tire makes a huge differences they all use different compounds, some being more oily than others.

Arguing with Steve isn't going to help this guy at the track. ;) Steve's been around awhile and has one of the fastest 4.6 birds (Cougar actually) that there are. He races a lot and knows what he's doing. But he doesn't have a 5spd SC and apparently neither do you.

I have been telling guys for years not to bother taking a 5spd SC to the track with radial tires. It's just not worth the bother. These cars are ok on the street, but at the track where the surface is clean, smooth, and at least somewhat prepped, these cars will not spin the tires without violent wheel hop. If you drive a solid axle car you don't have a point of reference to discuss the issue. Yes, solid axle cars can wheel hop, but it's nothing like the SC's IRS. Apples and oranges. With your solid axle you can learn where the point of traction resides by falling off one way then the other until you learn the balance. With an SC by the time you learn that balance point you'll have a pile of axles worth more as scrap than the resale value of your SC. And then even when you think you have it down to a science, track conditions will change and you'll break parts anyway.

Yes, I have been doing this for a long time. I've had a 5spd SC since 1990 and have been racing it off and on since that time. I've broken way more parts than I would like to admit and I'm generally pretty careful. Other people say I drive pretty well, in my opinion I'm at least marginally competent.

$400 on a set of ET Street bias ply tires is a bargain when you consider how many transmissions, driveshafts, rear ends, and axles have been sacrificed on radials; they'll make your track endeavors many times more enjoyable.

rzimmerl
10-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Why are we even bothering to argue with the jdsgallops guy........ another V8 Mustang guy that thinks he's the man and knows it all.................:rolleyes:

........................................... and tires do make a difference:p

90coug
10-11-2011, 05:44 PM
Alright, what I'm taking away from the thread follows

1) If you plan on taking your 5-Speed SC to the drag strip, get some good tires! Preferably ones with soft side walls that are somewhat forgiving. The M/T ET Streets are a good choice.

2) Itís not just about the car but how it's driven. The driver needs practice, one should not expect 9's from their first launch :p


Matt, I looked for a set of 26x11 but I could only find 26x10.5, are these the tires you are using?

I found some 26X10.50-16LT M/T ETStreets over at speedtweekerz.com for 179.09 x2 + 40$ shipping. Are these a good deal, or have others found better?

Thanks guys, this place is great. :)

BTW, besides tires, whatís the next best thing to upgrade when trying to eliminate wheel hop? I've read stories where people upgraded almost everything from bushings to shocks and still didn't get rid of it completely. MannySC had the steel washer idea for the rear sub frame bushings, Doug has his special bushings for the sub frame and SCP has aluminum ones. I don't know which route would be the best. I'm leaning towards Dougís product but I'm just not sure.

XR7 Dave
10-11-2011, 06:33 PM
At the track all you really need are the tires. Unless something is worn or broken in the rear suspension, that's all thats required.

On the street the biggest benefit is the Delrin lower control arm bushings. Then Delrin spindle bushings. With those you will be 90% there. The other stuff helps, but those are the big rocks.

fasterthanyou
10-11-2011, 07:02 PM
I pulled 1.80's 1.79's in my cougar with nittos and a hell of a lot less power than your 331 mustang.. and my car isn't setup for drag. its not setup for anything really.. just stock, worn out 17 year old suspension with missing bushings on nitto 555r's. you're doing something wrong. lol.

VicRattlehead
10-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Here we go again.....blah blah blah....dyno'd and made 320rwhp and 363 lb ft of torque. blahhh...It AVERAGED 333lbft of torque....blah blah blah... 12.91@111.67mph. 2.0 something 60ft. .....blahhh blahhh.... 60ft's didn't really drop that much, couple of high 1.8x but mostly 1.9x.



wow impressive, 12.91 at 111 mph, 320hp 363tq, 3500lbs hmm seems light compared to my pile. So i have a question, how come my pile is 3-400 lbs heavier, has probably 30ish less horsepower at the wheels, has about 50rwtq less, but i run the 1/4 mile quicker???? 12.41 @ 103

why? cause it can leave the line, not trying to pussyfoot it off the line and worried about spinnin into 2nd gear, again you might ask why. BECAUSE ITS GOT A DAMN TIRE ON IT THAT CAN HANDLE IT. put a street tire on my car is WORTHLESS! i cant hook it to save my life on the street why in the hell should i try using it on a track? and i run at the one of the fastest best hooking track in the country.

for the rest, not sure why you guys use street tires ie "m/t et street" spending, as dave said, 400 bucks on them, get a pair of ET Drag for a hundred fifty bucks and be done with it. the other 250 that you saved go buy a set of 15" rims to put em on.

1MTNCAT
10-11-2011, 09:52 PM
What I really find funny is how you are telling me the SC is at such a disadvantage but you have turned 1.8x 60's. So you cry about the independent rear, broken halfshafts, less cubes, weak transmissions and extra weight but can still pull 1.8's without any tricks? Gonna call a huge BS on that one based off your own words. Though it only reinforces my arguement, learn to drive the car don't "band aid" it. So please spill the beans. Was that 1.8 in an sc? What size and brand tire did you use? The brand of tire makes a huge differences they all use different compounds, some being more oily than others.

You assume I have a SC. Not! You assume I run at Englishtown at Sea level. I have but again not! But I do have an MN12 IRS 4.6L Cougar automatic and you can claim BS all you want. There are those on here that have seen it pull 1.85 60's on 255/60R15 BFGoodrich TA street radials, not drag tires. It also pulls 1.81's give or take on the 26" drag tires on the stocker motor thats dynoed 250 HP and 300 Ft lbs of torque. No tricks, and yeah I know how to drive! Love to have that strokers power.....

When I get real serious I give the little stocker a small shot (It likes Straight shots);) and it pulls 1.5's on the 60 ft's. That by the way is on 28" slicks.

Do me and all these guys that you are giving the misinformation to here a break and take your car to Bristol, since last you ran in Florida at Sea level and come back with the calculator and tell my why your car slowed down so much. Yes conditions matter and so does elevation, especially when you have a change in both.

You have a lot to learn about IRS, cars, and driving them in general. You can't do it by a calculator. Like I always say, time clocks and slips don't lie. Neither do same track, same day racing. Everyones got the same conditions except for set ups. You just can't compare apples to oranges.

Bottom line is = He needs drag tires!!

VicRattlehead
10-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Bottom line is = He needs drag tires!!


you dont go 4wheelin with street tires, why go racing with street tires?????

jdsgallops
10-11-2011, 11:04 PM
I could write a book on all the negative comments but why? David I will disagree with you on the tires. All sending an inexperienced driver to the track with a set of $400 tires plus an extra set of rims is disappointment. Who cares if his 60ft' drop when he still doesn't have correct shift points, tune, or clutch and shifter timing. The car still isn't going to meet it's full potential just becaujse he has the right tires.

I had a friend who went 12.9's in his bone stock 03 Mach 1. How? He takes care of the tracks computers. He is at the track every weekend and makes as many passes as possible. Everyone on the internet claimed BS. He has no reason to lie. And had plenty of witnesses.

Don't even get me started on the FAST series. These guys must be really stupid to to be running high 9 1/4's on stock bias ply 60's era technology. For thoise not familiar that is Factory Appearing Stock Tire. Yep Mustang 1st in the 9's. Never mind though. My budget doesn't allow me to play with the big dogs so I will just remain a "know it all mustang guy". And go back to reading only.

jdsgallops
10-11-2011, 11:40 PM
Double post.

XR7 Dave
10-12-2011, 08:43 AM
I could write a book on all the negative comments but why? David I will disagree with you on the tires. All sending an inexperienced driver to the track with a set of $400 tires plus an extra set of rims is disappointment. Who cares if his 60ft' drop when he still doesn't have correct shift points, tune, or clutch and shifter timing. The car still isn't going to meet it's full potential just becaujse he has the right tires.

I had a friend who went 12.9's in his bone stock 03 Mach 1. How? He takes care of the tracks computers. He is at the track every weekend and makes as many passes as possible. Everyone on the internet claimed BS. He has no reason to lie. And had plenty of witnesses.

Don't even get me started on the FAST series. These guys must be really stupid to to be running high 9 1/4's on stock bias ply 60's era technology. For thoise not familiar that is Factory Appearing Stock Tire. Yep Mustang 1st in the 9's. Never mind though. My budget doesn't allow me to play with the big dogs so I will just remain a "know it all mustang guy". And go back to reading only.

You missed my point entirely. I never said anything about maximizing his 60ft times. The guy posted about breaking an axle. I posted about how best to avoid breaking another one. $400 on a set of tires is relatively inexpensive insurance for never breaking another one. And then there are the driveshafts, transmission input and output shafts, etc., not to mention towing or other inconveniences involved in breaking your car at the track.

Your inexperience with SC specific wheel hop and the carnage that results is obvious. I wasn't trying to argue, just inform and educate. I've been around the block with this, I've run fast on street tires (yes I even tried to start a FAST series for SC's a few years ago - it's documented on this site even if you care to look). I am speaking from experience driving a 5spd SC. I'm not speaking from the experience of driving a Mustang, a Charger, a Camaro, or even an automatic transmission equipped SC. I don't have an iron in this fire, I don't really care what you or he wants to run for tires. I have given an honest suggestion based on factual experience over many years with many 5spd SC's. The interested parties can do with that what they like. I'm not the least bit interested in arguing. This will be my last post on this subject.

Have a great day! :)

1MTNCAT
10-12-2011, 12:42 PM
I could write a book on all the negative comments but why? David I will disagree with you on the tires. All sending an inexperienced driver to the track with a set of $400 tires plus an extra set of rims is disappointment. Who cares if his 60ft' drop when he still doesn't have correct shift points, tune, or clutch and shifter timing. The car still isn't going to meet it's full potential just becaujse he has the right tires.

I had a friend who went 12.9's in his bone stock 03 Mach 1. How? He takes care of the tracks computers. He is at the track every weekend and makes as many passes as possible. Everyone on the internet claimed BS. He has no reason to lie. And had plenty of witnesses.

Don't even get me started on the FAST series. These guys must be really stupid to to be running high 9 1/4's on stock bias ply 60's era technology. For thoise not familiar that is Factory Appearing Stock Tire. Yep Mustang 1st in the 9's. Never mind though. My budget doesn't allow me to play with the big dogs so I will just remain a "know it all mustang guy". And go back to reading only.


Sending a car to the track that is going to break parts or not allow repeatable consistant 60 fts is not going to reach its potential either. Not even close. All good drag racers know that the first 60 ft sets up the whole run, all things considered. You are not going to do that without consistancy. If you are constantly breaking stuff or not able to hook, it is a useless effort. The shift points and all the other things down track can then be tuned/tweaked to work efficiently to increase the performance much the same way the computer can be tweaked for automatic cars, shift points, etc.

The tires on these manual shift SC IRS cars, the ability to launch it and not beat the crap out of it is whats necessary. Therefore he needs tires. But, like Dave I'm not going to argue about it anymore either. He certainly can do what he wants. His choice.


The most disappointing thing is being at the track in a car that won't hook or constantly breaks and trying to run numbers. Thats what he's trying to avoid.

jdsgallops
10-12-2011, 02:01 PM
I thought of a good story after I posted last night. I had a buddy that ran a bolt on foxbody Gt. He insisted on running slicks on it. This was many years ago so I don't remember the exact details. Regardless the end of the racing season was near and he had yet to see a 13. Sec time slip. So he asked me to make a pass in the car. First time ever in the car and first time ever on slicks for me. I went a .1 faster than his previous best but still couldn't get a 13 for him. Then I said the car is missing on the topend. And he asked me what I was talking about. Denied such a thing was happening and stated the car was timed correctly. :rolleyes: The "right" tires sure didn't help him achieve the Et's the car was capable of. They did however compensate for his lack of driving ability. I had an 87 Iroc 305/5 speed car at the time. Ran it on stock tires. The only "stockish" 305 powered camaro I ever witnessed go 14's(best et was 14.5 shifting at 4500rpm). My aforementioned buddy could put his street tires on and I would then spank him on a side by side race. By a 1/2 sec or so when his car was a 1/2 sec faster than mine when he was on his slicks. Then he would blame the tires for loosing the 1 sec in Et.

But please continue to promote the "you need a tire" theory of band aiding the car and driver. It makes for cheap used low mileage parts for people like me to buy when we are ready and have all the other bugs out of the car and have learned how to drive it.:cool:

95badbird
10-12-2011, 02:18 PM
interesting......my "street" tires were my limit when I was doing 1.99 60's.
Slicks dropped me to consistent 1.88 60's.

good thing it was the tires that helped me get from 14.15 to 13.85. both e.t.'s ran the same mph which was 96.xx.

ganuolfthegrey
10-12-2011, 03:01 PM
i love mustang guys there so funny.

90coug
10-12-2011, 03:14 PM
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ralWxRg_QdM?hl=en&fs=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ok, here I am rolling up. I almost got to race a cop! I'm sure I would have blew his doors off. :p

I think you can hear the pop of the axle....

David Neibert
10-12-2011, 03:21 PM
I thought of a good story after I posted last night. I had a buddy that ran a bolt on foxbody Gt. He insisted on running slicks on it. This was many years ago so I don't remember the exact details. Regardless the end of the racing season was near and he had yet to see a 13. Sec time slip. So he asked me to make a pass in the car. First time ever in the car and first time ever on slicks for me. I went a .1 faster than his previous best but still couldn't get a 13 for him. Then I said the car is missing on the topend. And he asked me what I was talking about. Denied such a thing was happening and stated the car was timed correctly. :rolleyes: The "right" tires sure didn't help him achieve the Et's the car was capable of. They did however compensate for his lack of driving ability. I had an 87 Iroc 305/5 speed car at the time. Ran it on stock tires. The only "stockish" 305 powered camaro I ever witnessed go 14's(best et was 14.5 shifting at 4500rpm). My aforementioned buddy could put his street tires on and I would then spank him on a side by side race. By a 1/2 sec or so when his car was a 1/2 sec faster than mine when he was on his slicks. Then he would blame the tires for loosing the 1 sec in Et.

But please continue to promote the "you need a tire" theory of band aiding the car and driver. It makes for cheap used low mileage parts for people like me to buy when we are ready and have all the other bugs out of the car and have learned how to drive it.:cool:

Why is it so hard for you to understand that Drag racing an IRS MN12 with a manual transmission, is nothing like the solid axle cars you keep talking about ? It's been explained several times in this thread, and clearly you have no personal experince with driving one, yet you continue to argue your point and present examples that don't really apply.

It's fine if you agree to dissagree, but it's not fine to insult people and act like a tool about it. Just to be clear, I'm not calling you a tool...I just think your acting like one, and there is no reason for it.

David

jdsgallops
10-12-2011, 05:11 PM
David suspension is real simple. Keep it in the right geometry. I have already learned that with my Mustang. But as Dave D has pointed out there is no interest by people who own sc's to try and drive them quickly with a street tire. Thus the parts to remedy this issue with the IRS will never be developed because the chosen path has become to band aid the car by putting a bias ply tire on it to absorb the intial shock instead. Combine that with a limited market and band aid it is. There is no need to develop parts. No one is interested in buying them.(obvious by what some members here have tried to develop and how long it takes to sell them.

Your right I have no experience taking the Sc down track. Hell the car has barely been together for a week after all the repairs I had to make to it. Will it go down a track. At some point in time it will. And I could care less if it wheel hops itself toa 16 sec 1/4. It's a 200,000mi daily driver If I want to go fast I will get the Mustang back together, learn the new combo, and then throw a bottle on it and go 10's.

Regardless of what you believe is right the thing that bothers me most about this whole subject is how everyone says YOU CAN'T do something. If a person chooses to set a parameter of something that won't work he should be informed of the pitfalls that will follow. Not told it won't work or you can't do that. And nowhere in this subject have I said a that the proper tire shouldn't be used, only that it shouldn't be used until it is truly needed. If sticking up for those choices makes me a tool, I will happily be a tool any day of the week.

1MTNCAT
10-12-2011, 05:44 PM
David suspension is real simple. Keep it in the right geometry. I have already learned that with my Mustang. But as Dave D has pointed out there is no interest by people who own sc's to try and drive them quickly with a street tire. Thus the parts to remedy this issue with the IRS will never be developed because the chosen path has become to band aid the car by putting a bias ply tire on it to absorb the intial shock instead. Combine that with a limited market and band aid it is. There is no need to develop parts. No one is interested in buying them.(obvious by what some members here have tried to develop and how long it takes to sell them.

Your right I have no experience taking the Sc down track. Hell the car has barely been together for a week after all the repairs I had to make to it. Will it go down a track. At some point in time it will. And I could care less if it wheel hops itself toa 16 sec 1/4. It's a 200,000mi daily driver If I want to go fast I will get the Mustang back together, learn the new combo, and then throw a bottle on it and go 10's.

Regardless of what you believe is right the thing that bothers me most about this whole subject is how everyone says YOU CAN'T do something. If a person chooses to set a parameter of something that won't work he should be informed of the pitfalls that will follow. Not told it won't work or you can't do that. And nowhere in this subject have I said a that the proper tire shouldn't be used, only that it shouldn't be used until it is truly needed. If sticking up for those choices makes me a tool, I will happily be a tool any day of the week.

I've got your bandaid and I can still kick your stroker fox's ~~~ with my little 281 incher automatic on a stock suspension. Hey thats all that counts right!! Yeah, and I'll drive it anywhere. Come find me so I can school you. Hey, bring your Cobra buddy along too!!;)

rzimmerl
10-12-2011, 07:05 PM
Nice shot Steve, love the lift and wrinkle.

kenewagner
10-12-2011, 07:09 PM
Bottom line is learn the car and what it likes and do the driver mod before you throw anything else at it. Running 14's and 13's on true street tires is not hard it just takes patience.

A lot of us have learned the car we drive. I ran 13.6s on Nittos. Bottom line is as I wanted to go faster and needed a tire I could get a good burn out on and get it hot and sticky makes for fast 60 foot times. No way I was going to run mid 11s with my nittos

Ken

1MTNCAT
10-12-2011, 10:23 PM
Nice shot Steve, love the lift and wrinkle.

That was only a bad 1.63 otherwise it would of had the front tires in the air. ;)

Here's an almost 5 year old vid of a high 1.5 60ft on the first 11 second pass. Thats why slicks work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae4c5BaY9WQ

DrFishbone
10-13-2011, 07:50 AM
I've got your bandaid and I can still kick your stroker fox's ~~~ with my little 281 incher automatic on a stock suspension. Hey thats all that counts right!! Yeah, and I'll drive it anywhere. Come find me so I can school you. Hey, bring your Cobra buddy along too!!;)

You should run street tires....it will get rid of that nose-lifting problem.


:rolleyes:

DrFishbone
10-13-2011, 07:55 AM
Alright, what I'm taking away from the thread follows

1) If you plan on taking your 5-Speed SC to the drag strip, get some good tires! Preferably ones with soft side walls that are somewhat forgiving. The M/T ET Streets are a good choice.

2) Itís not just about the car but how it's driven. The driver needs practice, one should not expect 9's from their first launch :p


Right on man - you got it.


Matt, I looked for a set of 26x11 but I could only find 26x10.5, are these the tires you are using?

Yeah - you're right. I was just looking at a new set a couple of days ago and had already forgot the size. :rolleyes:


BTW, besides tires, whatís the next best thing to upgrade when trying to eliminate wheel hop? I've read stories where people upgraded almost everything from bushings to shocks and still didn't get rid of it completely. MannySC had the steel washer idea for the rear sub frame bushings, Doug has his special bushings for the sub frame and SCP has aluminum ones. I don't know which route would be the best. I'm leaning towards Dougís product but I'm just not sure.

I haven't cured it yet, but I plan to buy some of Doug's control arm/knuckle bushings first.

jdsgallops
10-13-2011, 11:01 AM
A lot of us have learned the car we drive. I ran 13.6s on Nittos. Bottom line is as I wanted to go faster and needed a tire I could get a good burn out on and get it hot and sticky makes for fast 60 foot times. No way I was going to run mid 11s with my nittos

Ken

I just love how all you guys put words in my mouth. NO WHERE have I said an 11 sec car should run street tires. I DID say a 13 and 14 sec car didn't need a tire and that learning to drive the car would yield just as good of results. The original poster in this thread clearly stated it was his first time EVER at the strip. No questions on his mods, condition of his clutch, is his traction lock working correctly, etc..... Just "Put tires on the car". Sc's in any form are high mileage cars, they are not new cars.

Yes the independent rear is more prone to wheel hop, but it isn't the only thing that leads to wheel hop. Stock high mileage shocks, incorrect pinion angle, worn busing all contribute to wheel hop. No questioning on if those parts are replaced and in good conditiomn, just "Put tires on the car". These items all contribute to the safety of the car also. Spending $500 on making sure these items are in proper working order is money well spent. You can still go to the track and have fun, even if the car isn't meeting it's full potential. At least you won't be the guy that shuts down the lanes for clean up because you have the "right" tires but ignored everything else and then break.

But ~~~ do I know? I have never had my SC down the track, am a know it all mustang guy acting like a tool. It seems anything you learn on a Mustang or any other platform for that matter doesn't apply to an SC.:rolleyes:

Steve would love to setup something with you. Unfortunately the Cobra is a rolling shell right now. Waiting to finish body work, prime, then paint. Then rub out, reinstall the entire interior, engine compartment, and drivetrain. And with a 4 month old in the house the Cobra isn't my priority. When it does come back out though it will have some small weight reduction done and more power. Better step up your game.

Wife wanted a ride in the Sc last night. Wanted to know what all this hype was I had been giving the car, especially since it is replacing her bolt on 01 Mustang Gt. I got on it probably the hardest I have yet. Still haven't found this wheel hop everyone talks about. Sshe did say the car feels faster than the Mustang did though. Baby loved it too. She quit fussing really quickly. I think she is gonna be my little racing buddy!

kenewagner
10-13-2011, 12:02 PM
A lot of us have learned the car we drive. I ran 13.6s on Nittos. Bottom line is as I wanted to go faster and needed a tire I could get a good burn out on and get it hot and sticky makes for fast 60 foot times. No way I was going to run mid 11s with my nittos

Ken

I just love how all you guys put words in my mouth. NO WHERE have I said an 11 sec car should run street tires. I DID say a 13 and 14 sec car didn't need a tire and that learning to drive the car would yield just as good of results. The original poster in this thread clearly stated it was his first time EVER at the strip. No questions on his mods, condition of his clutch, is his traction lock working correctly, etc..... Just "Put tires on the car". Sc's in any form are high mileage cars, they are not new cars.

.

But ~~~ do I know? I have never had my SC down the track, am a know it all mustang guy acting like a tool. It seems anything you learn on a Mustang or any other platform for that matter doesn't apply to an SC.:rolleyes:




You should reread my post before you get all defensive. I said I did run mid 13s on street tires. But as the car increased in power I went to a racing tire. At that point you should be saying yeh my point exactly. Nobody here is saying 13s or 14s on street tires cant be done. I did it. If you looked closely you would see he has been around this club since 2004 and has a few thousand posts, he isnt a new guy, we didnt ask him his mods or other questions because we do know him. You have some 30+ posts and been around this site a whole month. Most people here are going to give more credablity to a Dave Neibert with a decade of time here and two of the fastest cars in the club and worked his way up from the bottom like most of us. Doesnt mean you advice or experence has no value but it means you need to do some proving of yourself before you start telling people here they dont know what they are talking about. Everyone has an opinion but state it without seeming like your the only one correct. Nobody likes a know it all.

Ken

jdsgallops
10-13-2011, 02:04 PM
I am not a know it all Ken. I have been around this car thing and the drag strip for 20 years.

I DO KNOW that on a 13 or 14 sec. Car the money spent on tires may not be the best bang for the buck. That there are other supporting systems may need the money spent on them first. It doesn't matter what brand or name plate is on it. Nor does it matter how many or few posts I have here.

The whole argument came from everyone using the independent rear as an excuse that my knowledge didn't apply. Then when I used real world examples they were ignored and discounted because they didn't have anything to do with an SC. Once again because the suspension made all the difference in the world.

All I can say is if I was the guy who went from 1.99 60's on a street tire to 1.88's on an Et street and only gained .3 in the 1/4 on a high 13/ low 14 sec. Car I would be pissed.

David Neibert
10-13-2011, 02:34 PM
I am not a know it all Ken. I have been around this car thing and the drag strip for 20 years.

I DO KNOW that on a 13 or 14 sec. Car the money spent on tires may not be the best bang for the buck. That there are other supporting systems may need the money spent on them first. It doesn't matter what brand or name plate is on it. Nor does it matter how many or few posts I have here.

The whole argument came from everyone using the independent rear as an excuse that my knowledge didn't apply. Then when I used real world examples they were ignored and discounted because they didn't have anything to do with an SC. Once again because the suspension made all the difference in the world.

All I can say is if I was the guy who went from 1.99 60's on a street tire to 1.88's on an Et street and only gained .3 in the 1/4 on a high 13/ low 14 sec. Car I would be pissed.

Please take your SC to the track and show us what you can do on street tires.

I've run as quick as 13.2 @ 112, just playing around trying to see if I could get it into the 12s on my street tires. At that time it would run 11.7 @ 118 with dot slicks. I tried about 3 passes and each time I got the same result (not enough traction). No matter how soft I launched it wouldn't hold full throttle until it was in 3rd gear.

The BIG difference between my car and the OP in this thread is, I've got an automatic and he has a manual transmission. Automatic MN12s very seldom have a problem with wheel hop or breaking stuff at the track, even at power levels 3 times higer than stock.

Manual transmission MN12s are a horse of another color, and a 14 second or even a 15 second car can easily break a halfshaft or worse just trying to launch the car on a sticky track. Most people believe the torque converter slippage cushions the shock to the suspension at launch and that is why the automatics don't have much of a problem and can use street tires or drag radials with much better results than a manual transmission car. The bias ply soft sidewall drag tires, provide a similar cushion and have proven to be the easiest way to combat wheel hop and the associated breakage when launching a manual transmission car.

David

jdsgallops
10-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Don't worry when I feel the car is safe enough to exceed 70 mph I will take it to the track and will have no problem posting my results. With the entire suspension needing bushings it likely won't happen any time soon. The tension rod to lower control arms busings are almost non existent. Front brakes need to be done also. With the wife having been off for 4 months for the birth of our daughter the budget is tightright now and only so much can be done so fast.

820
10-13-2011, 08:15 PM
what a tool

fasterthanyou
10-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Don't worry when I feel the car is safe enough to exceed 70 mph I will take it to the track and will have no problem posting my results. With the entire suspension needing bushings it likely won't happen any time soon. The tension rod to lower control arms busings are almost non existent. Front brakes need to be done also. With the wife having been off for 4 months for the birth of our daughter the budget is tightright now and only so much can be done so fast.

so you don't feel the car is safe to drive at highway speeds. the front end suspension is shot, you need brakes and you floored it with your wife and daughter in the car with you? ..damn man.

95badbird
10-14-2011, 12:16 PM
All I can say is if I was the guy who went from 1.99 60's on a street tire to 1.88's on an Et street and only gained .3 in the 1/4 on a high 13/ low 14 sec. Car I would be pissed.
the car was already at its full potential...except street tires were holding me back.
The car barely put 170-180 HP to the rear tires.
I was using everything the motor had.
I just had a few traction issues, and with the slicks, I was able to fully use the power that I had available.
but my car is lighter than most. At the time, it was weiging in at 3150 with me in it.

oh, and I'm not pissed. A car will only go as fast, as how much power it is making.
So for the power it was putting down, it ran well for what it was.
But thats old news, its getting built lighter, stronger, and with much more power this time around(all done by me).

David Neibert
10-14-2011, 01:20 PM
Don't worry when I feel the car is safe enough to exceed 70 mph I will take it to the track and will have no problem posting my results. With the entire suspension needing bushings it likely won't happen any time soon. The tension rod to lower control arms busings are almost non existent. Front brakes need to be done also. With the wife having been off for 4 months for the birth of our daughter the budget is tightright now and only so much can be done so fast.

I'm not worried....not even caring. I just thought the only way for you to believe/accept what we are saying, is to experince it for yourself.

David

mywhite89
10-14-2011, 03:45 PM
jdsgallops, is your car auto or manual? Given the right circumstances on the street my 5-speed will wheel hop. On the track, pretty much anything over a very small amount of lost traction my car wheel hops like crazy and every time. In one day, I broke a halfshaft, then a couple runs later I disintigrated 1st gear on my transmission. This was with bias ply m/t's. I could never get the auto car to wheel hop at all though. Hope to see you running at the track, fun times. Much more difficult than a solid axle car, especially with the thought of wheel hop always in the back of your mind. I like the challenge, but I usually just run my street tires because I havent had good luck with any form of slicks on my car. You also have to be careful with what clutch you run also, just not as forgiving when mixed with wheel hop.

chris

jdsgallops
10-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Car is a five speed. Somewhere down the line a center force dual friction was installed. Didn't have good luck with the one in my mustang as a few pucks just decided to fall off. Gotta be better than a stocker though. I have not had a wheel hop issue as of yet on the street. I have been very surprised at the lack of tire spin on a hard 1 2 shift. With the gearing and torque these motors make I was expecting more than a bark.

In alll the years I have been modding cars and going to the track I have taken exactly one automatic car down the track. The aformentioned wifes 01 Mustang Gt. I could have closed my eys and gotten down the track just as well the thing was such a bore going down the track. My persoanl cars have always been a stick and always run on a street tire at some point. And when I wasn't happy wit the results I would call my buddy up that when 12.9 with his Mach 1 and ask him what I needed to do to improve. He would give me the tips And I would improve.Just because it is a street tire doesn't mean there aren't tricks to getting the most out of it. Which means having a stick and a street tire doesn't scare me. I am already versed in controling throttle and clutch off the line to minimize wheel spin and wheel hop. As I have already pointed out independent suspension cars aren't the only ones that hop.

92bird
10-18-2011, 07:42 PM
Had fun Bryce.. Sorry your thread got hijacked..

That mph is insane for that ET.

Shows the car is pulling well after you crawl out of the hole.

Jeramie