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View Full Version : MPX/E85 Dyno Results.



Super Duper Cou
01-16-2012, 11:34 PM
Got my car back from the dyno today. With the MPX @ 30% overdrive it made 314rwhp and 459rwtq @ 18.2psi of boost. This is with the bone stock heads and cam through an automatic transmission.

http://i42.tinypic.com/nq8fva.jpg

Kevin Leitem
01-16-2012, 11:40 PM
That's pretty darn impressive. Good job. Power to the MPX!!

Super Duper Cou
01-17-2012, 02:50 AM
That's pretty darn impressive. Good job. Power to the MPX!!

Thanks man! I was impressed with the results myself. The MPX is a beast for sure. lol I can't wait to take it the track and see what she runs in the 1/4.

BLOWN38
01-17-2012, 10:35 AM
Thats a diesel curve right there.

Super Duper Cou
01-17-2012, 11:12 AM
Thats a diesel curve right there.

Haha that's what my friends were joking about when i showed them the graph. It should do some pretty good burn outs that's for sure. lol

David Neibert
01-17-2012, 03:34 PM
Wow ! This is the first time I've seen an SC motor with an M90 based blower, stock heads and cam break 300 rwhp. Assuming the green line is manifold pressure, it looks like boost starts falling off hard after 3600 rpms. Is that because of belt slip or something else ? I'm also curious about how you were able to keep the transmission from downshifting... 3rd to 2nd when starting the pull from such low rpms.

David

Super Duper Cou
01-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Wow ! This is the first time I've seen an SC motor with an M90 based blower, stock heads and cam break 300 rwhp. Assuming the green line is manifold pressure, it looks like boost starts falling off hard after 3600 rpms. Is that because of belt slip or something else ? I'm also curious about how you were able to keep the transmission from downshifting... 3rd to 2nd when starting the pull from such low rpms.

David

I know it's pretty crazy and impressive! I don't know how he kept it from downshifting into second on the dyno. There wasn't any signs of belt slip but the motor was getting some significant valve float so that's probably why the boost and power dropped off early like that.

neverfastenough
01-17-2012, 04:58 PM
Great numbers, confused how there was valve float when the pull only made it to 4300rpm. Maybe im reading it wrong? Seems like a 30% od on stock heads would have been well into 20 psi. On my stock long block and ported 95 blower I was at 19psi on 15%.

Super Duper Cou
01-17-2012, 05:06 PM
Great numbers, confused how there was valve float when the pull only made it to 4300rpm. Maybe im reading it wrong? Seems like a 30% od on stock heads would have been well into 20 psi. On my stock long block and ported 95 blower I was at 19psi on 15%.

That is a good question, I was expecting 20+psi as well. My motor has 174,000 miles on it and i think the valve springs are worn out and 18psi of boost is too much for them to handle at this point I guess. But judging at the boost pressure dropping on the graph, it does look like it was getting belt slip. Once it drys up outside I'll make a pull on the street and see if i can here the belt slipping. My buddy who tuned it says there was no signs of belt dust under the hood that would suggest belt slip.

ricardoa1
01-17-2012, 05:14 PM
That is a good question, I was expecting 20+psi as well. My motor has 174,000 miles on it and i think the valve springs are worn out and 18psi of boost is too much for them to handle at this point I guess. But judging at the boost pressure dropping on the graph, it does look like it was getting belt slip. Once it drys up outside I'll make a pull on the street and see if i can here the belt slipping. My buddy who tuned it says there was no signs of belt dust under the hood that would suggest belt slip.


Well i dont think boost will push valves in any direction. Valve float is when the valve springs are two soft and a combination of hydraulic lifters, all as you get to the higher RPMS.

The car is actin just like my M112 did you have tons of cylinder pressure due to the boost coming hard at low RPMS. Then the inlet cant supply enough CFM in the upper RPMS, the blower might be caviating, throwing efficiency out the window. HP consunsumtion goes up and inlet temps go tru the roof. But belt slip might be there you just dont know it.

David Neibert
01-18-2012, 03:38 PM
Well i dont think boost will push valves in any direction.

If the intake valve springs don't have enough pressure in the closed position, the intake manifold pressure (aka boost) can hold them open and cause valve float. Doesn't usually happen at such low rpms, but it is possible.

David

ricardoa1
01-18-2012, 04:19 PM
If the intake valve springs don't have enough pressure in the closed position, the intake manifold pressure (aka boost) can hold them open and cause valve float. Doesn't usually happen at such low rpms, but it is possible.

David




18 psi? :confused:

BLOWN38
01-18-2012, 04:54 PM
18 psi? :confused:

Mine did it at 17psi at 5k rpm.

David Neibert
01-18-2012, 06:17 PM
18 psi? :confused:

Yes, if the springs are weak enough. Back in 2002 shortly after getting my first SC motor built, the car started falling on it's face at 5400 rpms with only 16 pounds of boost. We pulled the rocker covers and discovered that 9 of valves had a broken inner valve spring, and the outer spring couldn't hold the valve closed at that rpms with that amount of boost. If boost was only 14 psi, I'm sure it would have revved higher before floating.

David

PS: Guy who tunes my turbo car, says he's certian I would gain another 100 rwhp just by switching to stiffer valve springs for the same reason.

decipha
01-18-2012, 11:14 PM
avg afr was lambda of .9 :eek:

I highly doubt thats where the engine made max power, typically with e85 max power is attained in the .7 range or in the 10s when compared to gasoline AFR's, when dealing with alcohol, fuel=power unlike gasoline where lean is mean, of course every engine is different, and the wideband could've been reading faulty

92bird
01-20-2012, 04:05 PM
E85 = "magic fuel"

Huge results on under-intercooled and non-intercooled cars with inefficient superchargers.

E85 has proved its usefulness to me last year on my GTP. My experience from tuning E85 is the acceptable AFR range is much wider. It runs very well rich or lean, with very little hp loss on the rich end vs gasoline.

On 91 octane (the best we get in Denver) my GTP could run about 7 psi boost and 16-17 degrees max wot timing before getting knock retard due to knock sensor activity.

On E85, I ran 11 psi boost, and 21 degrees timing with no knock sensor activity consistently.

Both scenarios non-intercooled. Results on this platform are nearly identical to intercooler upgraded GTP's.

Since the SC is under-intercooled from the factory, I would expect similar results, as you have proven here.

I also found a station that sells E100 here in Colorado. Hmmm... :cool:

Jeramie

90coug
01-20-2012, 04:41 PM
I also found a station that sells E100 here in Colorado. Hmmm... :cool:

Jeramie



Do tell! :D

92bird
01-20-2012, 05:05 PM
Bandimere sells it, and there is a place in loveland that sells it, but only during late spring-early fall timeframe.

E-85 is approx 105 octane
E-100 is approx 113 octane

I question weather or not the stock SC fuel lines will support E-100. Even with a big pump and injectors, but it is out there. I'd be watching the injector duty cycle like a hawk.

Jeramie

90coug
01-20-2012, 05:14 PM
Bandimere sells it, and there is a place in loveland that sells it, but only during late spring-early fall timeframe.

E-85 is approx 105 octane
E-100 is approx 113 octane

I question weather or not the stock SC fuel lines will support E-100. Even with a big pump and injectors, but it is out there. I'd be watching the injector duty cycle like a hawk.

Jeramie

Right on, good to know.

Why wouldn't the stock lines hold up? Is the E-100 too thick?

lol, no more money put into the SC! I wonder if I can manage that this year.


Dooooode! You just hit the 1000 post mark... Congrats :p:D

92bird
01-20-2012, 05:27 PM
Ethanol requires a higher volume of flow. Even with a big pump, and big injectors the lines may become a restriction due to their size. Not for sure, just speculating.

It really just depends on the power level and how you are getting to that power level.

300rwhp on a stock SC block/cam requires more fuel than 300rwhp with a ported cam and heads. Regardless of the type of fuel.

Super Duper Cou
01-20-2012, 07:17 PM
I'm running 80lb injectors and a 255lph fuel pump with the stock fuel lines. My buddy who tuned my car didn't say anything about the fuel lines so I don't think they are a restriction at the level my car is at right now on E85. I don't know about E100 but somebody should try it out! : D

92bird
01-20-2012, 07:37 PM
I'm running 80lb injectors and a 255lph fuel pump with the stock fuel lines. My buddy who tuned my car didn't say anything about the fuel lines so I don't think they are a restriction at the level my car is at right now on E85. I don't know about E100 but somebody should try it out! : D

Correct, I agree.. My questionability was on E100, since it would require even more volume than E85.

I plan to try the same thing this year with my stockish '94 SC, if the group buy ever goes through on those 80lb injectors, lol I think I will go with the Aeromotive 310lph pump and maybe raise base fuel pressure a bit. I've read that it helps with ignightability of Ethanol.

Congrats on the dyno numbers. That is some crazy torque! I love seeing stuff like this where people try new things.

Jeramie

BLOWN38
01-20-2012, 11:09 PM
Correct, I agree.. My questionability was on E100, since it would require even more volume than E85.

I plan to try the same thing this year with my stockish '94 SC, if the group buy ever goes through on those 80lb injectors, lol I think I will go with the Aeromotive 310lph pump and maybe raise base fuel pressure a bit. I've read that it helps with ignightability of Ethanol.

Congrats on the dyno numbers. That is some crazy torque! I love seeing stuff like this where people try new things.

Jeramie

When I put my bigger injectors on the race car I will put the old 80s on my stock 94 5 speed with the stealth pump and tune it on e85 too.

Super Duper Cou
01-21-2012, 12:49 AM
Correct, I agree.. My questionability was on E100, since it would require even more volume than E85.

I plan to try the same thing this year with my stockish '94 SC, if the group buy ever goes through on those 80lb injectors, lol I think I will go with the Aeromotive 310lph pump and maybe raise base fuel pressure a bit. I've read that it helps with ignightability of Ethanol.

Congrats on the dyno numbers. That is some crazy torque! I love seeing stuff like this where people try new things.

Jeramie

Thanks man, I'm definitely happy I made the switch to E85! :) Looking forward to seeing how ethanol works for your car.

Super Duper Cou
01-21-2012, 12:52 AM
When I put my bigger injectors on the race car I will put the old 80s on my stock 94 5 speed with the stealth pump and tune it on e85 too.

Sweet dude, make sure to post your numbers for your 94 when you get around to making the switch. Hopefully you'll like making the switch to E85 as much as I did.

Tedor
02-09-2012, 10:44 AM
What more mods do you have except the MPx, injectors and fuel pump?

nickleman60
02-09-2012, 06:02 PM
What more mods do you have except the MPx, injectors and fuel pump?

He's running E85 fuel.....it makes a huge difference.

Super Duper Cou
02-11-2012, 12:49 PM
What more mods do you have except the MPx, injectors and fuel pump?

Mods:
9" K&N cone air filter
76mm MAF
3 1/2" intake pipe
85mm throttlebody
custom built raised sc top
custom front mount intercooler
kooks mid length headers
2 1/2" test pipes (no cats)
2 1/2" true dual exhaust with no resonator
magnaflow mufflers
tuned with an sct chip
ac delete
10% od supercharger pulley
10% od jackshaft pulley
10% od crankshaft pulley
gates supercharger belt
magnum powers tensioner springs

Tedor
02-22-2012, 08:32 AM
Sweet, what duty cycle did you get with the 80lb injectors and 255lph pump? Maybe planning on running mine on E85 too

qc89SC
02-22-2012, 12:42 PM
Mods:
9" K&N cone air filter
76mm MAF
3 1/2" intake pipe
85mm throttlebody
custom built raised sc top
custom front mount intercooler
kooks mid length headers
2 1/2" test pipes (no cats)
2 1/2" true dual exhaust with no resonator
magnaflow mufflers
tuned with an sct chip
ac delete
10% od supercharger pulley
10% od jackshaft pulley
10% od crankshaft pulley
gates supercharger belt
magnum powers tensioner springs

you are on the stock injector? wish ill get similar numbers with my mpx clone!!! will have almost the same mods that you have on a freshly rebuilt engine :):):):)

David Neibert
02-22-2012, 04:50 PM
you are on the stock injector? wish ill get similar numbers with my mpx clone!!! will have almost the same mods that you have on a freshly rebuilt engine :):):):)

He has 80# injectors.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=975476&postcount=21

David

Mike8675309
02-22-2012, 06:38 PM
Sweet, what duty cycle did you get with the 80lb injectors and 255lph pump? Maybe planning on running mine on E85 too

It is more a relation to the engine, and tune. I can tell you that on my motor, the 255lph high pressure pump and stock fuel lines are not enough for 80lb/hr injectors and E85. (I was at over 120% duty cycle due to lack of fuel pressure) Others may not see such an issue.

90blkbrd
02-22-2012, 06:51 PM
It is more a relation to the engine, and tune. I can tell you that on my motor, the 255lph high pressure pump and stock fuel lines are not enough for 80lb/hr injectors and E85. (I was at over 120% duty cycle due to lack of fuel pressure) Others may not see such an issue.

I forget what is that with or without methanol?

Tedor
02-23-2012, 08:25 AM
It is more a relation to the engine, and tune. I can tell you that on my motor, the 255lph high pressure pump and stock fuel lines are not enough for 80lb/hr injectors and E85. (I was at over 120% duty cycle due to lack of fuel pressure) Others may not see such an issue.

Yes I know, but you have more rwhp than him, just wonder what duty cycle he had on his setup and power.

92bird
02-23-2012, 01:54 PM
I can tell you that on my motor, the 255lph high pressure pump and stock fuel lines are not enough for 80lb/hr injectors and E85. (I was at over 120% duty cycle due to lack of fuel pressure) Others may not see such an issue.

Are you sure it was the lines and not the pump?

I wonder how you would have faired with an Aeromotive 340lph pump and stock lines? I know a proper tune on E85 is fuel hungry. My experience is not with SC's yet, but with GM 3.8L supercharged motors (GTP, Regal GS, etc). It requires about 30-35% more fuel at the same AFR as gas. But to make the best power, you need to be around .78 lambda (low 11's on a gasoline calibrated wideband), which eats up even more fuel. On a low boost or well intercooled setup you can go leaner, but on a high boost or non/under-intercooled setup, you gotta run it fat to see the biggest gains. Either way it won't knock, due to the octane, but leaner isn't necesssarily more power like gasoline. After all, the fuel is acting as your intercooler. I'm going to experiment with E100 on my GTP this year. Should be fun!

Jeramie

Mike8675309
02-23-2012, 03:09 PM
Are you sure it was the lines and not the pump?


When running on 92 octane pump gas, I only had done street tuning and didn't log fuel pressure or do a dyno run. But, I know that my wide band and data logging did not indicate an issue with high rpm, high boost runs with injectors duty or o2 levels. When I switched to E85, and tuned on the dyno, I found these issues.

Neither the pump nor the fuel lines were sufficient. I data log fuel pressure and with logged 12 v to the fuel pump (directly powered by the battery through a relay) , 19psi of manifold pressure at 5300 rpm (nearly 1000 rpm below my comfortable rpm point). In theory, that should give me 39+19 psi or 58psi at the rail for fuel pressure. What I actually saw was more like 36psi of fuel pressure at the rail. I verified the fuel pressure regulator was operating properly. (AFR got as high as 13.1"gas" though target was 11.2)

I will be cutting my old lines open when I replace them to look for any signs of problems that might explain the issues I had. Though in general I believe for my application, i need larger fuel lines. Work for the spring.

Super Duper Cou
02-24-2012, 07:19 PM
Sweet, what duty cycle did you get with the 80lb injectors and 255lph pump? Maybe planning on running mine on E85 too

I'm not sure what duty cycle the injectors are running at. I was wondering that too and forgot to ask him! :o My car is getting a little belt slip with the scp pulleys but I'm going to buy the 10rib magnum powers pulley set here real soon when I get my tax money back.

The track opens up here in the next couple of weeks. I can't wait to see what this thing can do.

92bird
02-24-2012, 09:52 PM
Keep us updated bro. Excited to see your results.

That thing must be a tire fryer on the street!

Jeramie

Super Duper Cou
02-25-2012, 12:53 AM
Keep us updated bro. Excited to see your results.

That thing must be a tire fryer on the street!

Jeramie

Thanks man, will do.

It burns the tires all the way through first gear and halfway through second on the street with 225 street tires! lol :D

fturner
03-06-2012, 08:26 AM
By my calculations, running at 30% OD on the MPX, it is going to fall on its face at around 4200 rpm and become a huge heat pump and not move anymore air, and thats on a motor that can actually breath.

The rpm you saw the fall off at is to be expected because of the blower inlet plenum and the amount of back pressure the blower itself will be seeing right at the top, which would be in the neighbour hood of around 25psi or more with temperatures of 400+F, simply because the motor itself can't take the air the blower is putting out.

I don't think your car would do very well at the track because of traction issues with that much power down low, and the car falling over on its face because of heat etc.

Nice numbers though :).

Fraser

Super Duper Cou
03-07-2012, 01:43 AM
By my calculations, running at 30% OD on the MPX, it is going to fall on its face at around 4200 rpm and become a huge heat pump and not move anymore air, and thats on a motor that can actually breath.

The rpm you saw the fall off at is to be expected because of the blower inlet plenum and the amount of back pressure the blower itself will be seeing right at the top, which would be in the neighbour hood of around 25psi or more with temperatures of 400+F, simply because the motor itself can't take the air the blower is putting out.

I don't think your car would do very well at the track because of traction issues with that much power down low, and the car falling over on its face because of heat etc.

Nice numbers though :).

Fraser

Haha thanks man. We'll just have to wait and see I guess...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6861/supercoupememe.jpg

JT's03
04-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Good numbers for an unopened engine. Have you had it back to the track yet?

Super Duper Cou
04-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Good numbers for an unopened engine. Have you had it back to the track yet?

I haven't had it at the track yet. I want to get some 10rib pulleys on my car before I take it back to the track because it's getting some belt slip with the pulleys i have on now. I'll be sure to post my track results on here when the time comes which is hopefully soon!

Miguel5671
11-27-2013, 03:46 PM
This is pretty impressive congrats ! been following this for a while e85 sounds like fun :) ur set up is very close to mine except I got 60lb injectors wonder if I could go into the e85 land in the future myself