upper control arms

Go with TRW if you can, you never know what quality your gonna get with Ebay parts, and this is something that you dont want to replace often.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moog-K8596-...Model:Thunderbird&vxp=mtr&hash=item2eb62c5f91
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moog-K8598-...Model:Thunderbird&vxp=mtr&hash=item415f33e0ee

or

http://www.supercoupeperformance.com/partBrowser.aspx?partId=517
http://www.supercoupeperformance.com/partBrowser.aspx?partId=518

I don't like to buy no-name suspension parts.* The amount of time and effort involved in installing them is usually worth more than the parts themselves. I would buy TRW, which made the OEM parts, if you can find any, but they are probably all used up since the TRW line was discontinued. Then I would buy Motorcraft or Moog.

*I will make an exception for the parts that Bill at SuperCoupePerformance.com sells. He arranges his own deals with his suppliers, so the parts are unbranded, but he will stand behind his product.
 
Thanks guys. I'll just run up a bigger order with Bill, as I already have a list I need from him anyway:D I guess I was letting the sweetness of low $$$ get me into the bitterness of low quality,...again.
Adam
 
aroot1 said:
Thanks guys. I'll just run up a bigger order with Bill, as I already have a list I need from him anyway:D I guess I was letting the sweetness of low $$$ get me into the bitterness of low quality,...again.
Adam
Click to expand...

They could be fine, for all I know. I just don't want to be the guinea pig. :)
 
Stay away from ebay, and low cost chain store suspension parts. This is a case where you should get the best available. Stores sell the junk at price points to people who don't know the difference. After a few hundred miles, you'll regret the decision.
 
Different Experience

I bought a full front suspension kit from ebay for my daughters LX-TBird. I was expecting some no-name parts as well, but to my surprise and pleasure all the parts were actually Moog Suspension parts.

I suppose the seller may not have been able to say what brand they are perhaps cause they sell more than one manufacturer or something, not sure.

Anyway, I look at it this way. Not to many Manufacturers make parts for these cars anyway, so what are the chances it is going to come from a small chinese crap plant making sub-par parts? Not that great I would imagine.

Anyway, I had good luck when I ordered from ebay, so there you go.

Smitty
 
Smitty,

I should probly do the whole front end on this rig too, while it's apart. Are the LX and SC suspension pcs the same? Who was it on e-bay you got the kit from?
Adam
 
Quik95SC said:
Anyway, I look at it this way. Not to many Manufacturers make parts for these cars anyway, so what are the chances it is going to come from a small chinese crap plant making sub-par parts? Not that great I would imagine.
Click to expand...

Better odds than you may imagine.

Over on TCCoA, there's an old thread (you'll have to search for it, default filters roll it off!) in the Suspension forum where one guy took pics of the TRW vis the OE Brand upper ball joints. There's a LOT of difference between them, not the least being he had one OE Brand come apart within a year (!!)

RwP
 
The Same

aroot1 said:
Smitty,

I should probly do the whole front end on this rig too, while it's apart. Are the LX and SC suspension pcs the same? Who was it on e-bay you got the kit from?
Adam
Click to expand...

Yes as Far as I can remember suspension parts are the same on either MN-12platform for the front suspension for the same years of course.

I will try and find my receipt from when I bought them, but it has been a few years ago, but I do have every receipt for my 3 TBirds.

I will let you know if I can.

Smitty

PS: You can also sent a message to the seller asking them before you purchase them what brand they are and they should tell you. If no response, then look elsewhere.
 
The SC and LX suspension parts are identical, except for the hardness of the lower LCA bushings on the front end. Both versions will work, but the SC one is better for handling.

...
...
...

I agree that there are probably only a few foundries forging upper LCAs. But what I would be concerned about is that the factory making the parts could actually vary their quality standards, depending on who the customer is.

IE - if Moog wants parts, they will insist on a certain level of quality for the ball joints and boots, and a certain QC tolerance for the forgings.

But then "Bob the internet parts guy" calls up that same factory and asks if he can get the same part cheaper.

"Chun in Shenzhen" says, "Mmm ... yeah, we can make it pretty cheap. We can downgrade the ball joint, use a cheaper boot, and relax the requirements for testing the metal used in the forgings. If you can live with that, we can get them to you ... maybe 25% cheaper. Sound good?"

The interesting thing is, the parts could originate in the same factory as the Moog part, come off the same forging dies, and even have the same little "TRW" stamped into them ... and have a vastly different level of quality. But you wouldn't really know the quality except by using them and seeing how they fit and last. That's a lot of risk for me, personally, to take on ... and that's why I like to buy from a well-known company.

The brand name itself is no guarantee, of course ... companies can and do get sloppy from time to time. That's one thing that makes the Internet so great, though. One customer can get the word out fast and help others make better choices. One example is the strut rod bushings that Moog sells. Every other part they make seems to be really good, but those bushings are bad. The design is not the same as OEM, and they don't work well, and they don't last. There have been dozens of threads on TCCoA and SCCoA about those bushings. So we now know that the only bushings you should put on the strut rod are Motorcraft. Yes, they are way more expensive ... but they will actually work! And that is the important thing, right? (Also, see DLF from this forum for replacement strut rod bushing ferrules if you can't get the Ford ones.)

One last thought ... you know how the boxes say, "Made in USA" or "Made in Canada" so you know where your parts are coming from? Well, it doesn't mean much. I have gotten parts several times where the sticker on the part said "Made in Canada" and the box said "Made in USA". "Which is it, fellas? It can't be both!" (This has even happened with Moog parts for me. I guess maybe they moved the production line but didn't want to throw out a bunch of perfectly good boxes?)
 
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Up here, if you have a decent relationship with the shop, they will ask if you want "this" or an "A" part.

There could be 20% or more difference in the part cost.

Garages typically use "this" as it gives them margin room and although they outlive warranty they know you'll be back.

I have found useing proven "best in class" parts negates a ton of long term maintenance.

Paul
 
One more thought (I know, I said the last one was the last... :p):

I don't recall the thread you are talking about on TCCoA. But I remember another thread comparing the Raybestos Professional Grade UCAs with original TRW UCAs. The pictures don't lie ... the parts are different. But I disagree with the conclusions of the author.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=135981&highlight=moog+ball+joint

You can clearly see that the parts are different. Raybestos's ball joint is greasable, the boot is thicker and a different color, and the arm is thicker. Analysis:

1. Greasable ball joint. Some like this because it means you can keep the joint greased. But the downside is that you HAVE to keep it greased. The OEM boots were sealed pretty well and didn't really wear out until the boots tore and let dirt in. By which time, the bushings at the other end of the arm were probably shot anyway. The Raybestos arm will have the same limitation on life because of the bushings at the other end of the arm. So longevity will probably be a draw.
Also, the original TRW joints were Teflon lined. That means lower friction and resistance to turning. That means better road feel.
Cost advantage = Raybestos.
Performance Advantage = TRW OEM part.

3. Replaceable ball joint. Nice idea. But here's the kicker. Cost of complete Raybestos UCA = $62. Cost of replacement Raybestos ball joint = $72. WHAT? No cost savings ... so why change it? Maybe it saves them money during manufacture ... but it doesn't save you anything!
Cost advantage (for customer) = TRW OEM part.
Performance Advantage = TRW OEM part.

3. Thicker boot. Raybestos uses a thicker boot with no retainer, and TRW uses a thinner, bellowed boot with spiral retaining wires. The boot is compressed pretty much all the time and flexes a lot. The Raybestos boot may be tougher material, but it looks like it will be compressed in such a way that it may crack from repeated motion. Also, since it has no retainer, the grease may leak more easily. The bellowed TRW boot was obviously designed to flex easily and repeatedly. And the retainers will keep the grease in.
Cost advantage = Raybestos.
Performance Advantage = TRW OEM part.

3. Thicker arm. Raybestos's forging is thicker than TRW's. Is this needed for strength? Uh, no. When did you EVER hear of a TRW arm failing due to insufficient cross-section? Right. Never. Ever. Ever. The thicker arm may be required to accommodate the design with a replaceable ball joint ... but, for reasons listed in parts 1 and 2, the replaceable ball joint is just not very useful.
Also, thicker arm means heavier arm. Heavier at the wheel end, in fact. That means more unsprung weight. That means worse ride and worse handling.
Cost advantage = ?
Performance Advantage = TRW OEM part.

Overall:
The Raybestos Professional Grade arm has a few limited advantages and numerous design shortcomings. We have established that it is probably cheaper to make. So how much cheaper is it to buy? (Prices from RockAuto.)

Oops, the TRW arms are discontinued. Nobody is selling arms with Teflon lined joints anymore. Too bad, huh? I guess we will have to focus on the other design features then. The closest match is the Motorcraft one, which has the same forgings and boots as TRW, even though it now has a greasable (cheaper) ball joint.

Set of Raybestos PG UCAs: $124.
Set of Motorcraft UCAs: $136.

Hmm. So they won't last much longer, perform a little worse ...

And I could save $12?

I think I will go Motorcraft.

...
...

Don't even get me started on Mevotech or Dorman, who are selling a set of UCAs for about $70. (Dorman is currently on sale at RockAuto for less than that, but I think that's only temporary.)

Let's see, the OEM arms lasted how long? 15 years?

And these arms are warrantied for ... 1 year?

It takes how many hours to replace these UCAs?

I have to empty the AC system to replace the passenger UCA? And it costs over $100 to have a shop do that and refill it with new refrigerant?

So ... best case, if they last as long as OEM (ha ha ha) ... I could save about $70.

And hypothetically ... worst case ... if I own the car for 10 more years ... And the knockoff parts fail every 2 years ... I would have to replace them 4 more times ... at a cost of $70 each time ... plus $100 each time to drain the AC system ... that could cost me $680!!! (And about 2 days of my life.)

Yet more reasons to stay OEM.
 
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S_Mazza said:
One last thought ... you know how the boxes say, "Made in USA" or "Made in Canada" so you know where your parts are coming from? Well, it doesn't mean much. I have gotten parts several times where the sticker on the part said "Made in Canada" and the box said "Made in USA". "Which is it, fellas? It can't be both!" (This has even happened with Moog parts for me. I guess maybe they moved the production line but didn't want to throw out a bunch of perfectly good boxes?)
Click to expand...

You don't understand. The PART is made in Canada, the BOX is made in the USA.

(My first smart-alec response was "What, Canada's not part of the US?" ... Sorry, didn't mean to think an insult to our Canadian members! :D:D )

RwP
 
Minor gig - you don't HAVE to discharge the A/C to do the UCAs.

I did mine just fine without.

Now, remove the Teves Mk II ABS - if you can work around that, I bet you won't have to touch the supercharger plumbing at all (that ABS sucker made me say some worty dirds, it did ... )

RwP
 
here we go again!

First off, thanks for the info, I had not realy ever taken the time to compare alot of these type parts. Mostly based decisions on price/length of warranty and length of time I expect the car to last (winter driving in the rust belt + some rust on a used DD = chassis death eventually, it just can't be stopped):cool:. I've never experienced a vehicle that snowballs like one of these SCs:eek:. I've got the heads off, so I might as well....... next thing you know it's a cam (can't do that without valvetrain, right?). Then hey I oughta do motor mounts while I can SEE them. The upper control arms are a LOT easier to do now, but this needs too...... whole front end!:eek:
I said something about a slippery slope in another post and I think it was Ralph who laughed and said it was teflon lined and greased!:D Man he wasn't kidding.
So I'm looking at supercoupe performance. The upper and lower arms don't go bad, just bushings and ball joints. I'm now thinking about replacing the ball joints and Bill's polyurathane performance front bushing kit ( I don't mind a firm ride and would like these anyway, why buy complete arms then press out brand new bushings and replace?). I saw that Moog offered just lower ball joints, but are the uppers replaceable or do you HAVE to do the whole arm? Has anyone out there gone this route? I figure if Bill still has 'em listed somebody's buying (complete bushing kit).
Thanks
Adam
 
The upper ball joint socket is machined into the upper control arm, so you need to do the whole upper control arm for those.

Sometimes the bushings will fail while the balljoint is good - but they're cheap enough IMO to replace the whole thing, considering the labor (and no, you don't work for free! YOUR time is worth something) and the price for an alignment when done. OTOH - Sears DOES offer a lifetime alignment, if they do good work in your neighborhood, might be worth paying the extra one time for these cars.

But yah, that sounds like something I would have said. Or maybe Ralph Long, the OTHER Ralph here :D

RwP
 
You won't actually have to dismantle the engine, nor remove it, nor unbolt or remove the ABS+Brake unit, nor purge the A/C accumulator to replace the upper control arms.

On the driver side, if you unplug the various wire harnesses and push them out of the way, you can squeeze your hand into the gap and slip a wrench on the nut and to hold it while you remove the bolt from the other side. If you do it right, you can position the wrench so that it won't move while you loosen the bolt. The bolt needs a 6 pt socket and needs to seat as far and straight as possible before you pull on it. Reach behind the spring with a 6" extension and breaker bar and its easy as pie.

On the pass side, unplug a couple of things, shove the wire harness up and over and same thing only from underneath rather than from the top.

Takes about 1/2 hour per side with practice. :cool:
 
RalphP said:
Minor gig - you don't HAVE to discharge the A/C to do the UCAs.

I did mine just fine without.

Now, remove the Teves Mk II ABS - if you can work around that, I bet you won't have to touch the supercharger plumbing at all (that ABS sucker made me say some worty dirds, it did ... )

RwP
Click to expand...

Hmm. I was able to do the driver's side UCA without messing with my ABS system. But I could not get the passenger UCA without taking off the AC accumulator. :confused:
 
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