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View Full Version : Trannipaloosa - How to install a T56 in one weekend...



XR7 Dave
02-24-2012, 08:23 PM
There's been a lot of talk about T56's over the years, but finally we are going to put one in, get the job done, and let you know what it feels like.

Ok, in all honesty you may never actually complete a total install in one weekend without a lot of groundwork being done in advance, but the actual installation is quite doable.

Here we go.

First off, the ground work:

You'll need - A working T56. In this case we took an early Camaro Borg Warner T56 and updated the front cover and input shaft to a late model so that it would accept a diaphram style slave cylinder which we purchased in advance from McLeod along with a SBF bellhousing/SFI blowshield and separator plate. We used a custom McLeod lightweight billet steel flywheel and in this case a twin disc McLeod clutch originally designed for a 4.6L Cobra. Then we had to make sure we had all the right attaching bolts (none of the stock stuff or anything that came in any of the kits worked) and clutch line adapters for the master cylinder and -3 AN lines. Then you'll need a special lengthened driveshaft which we had custom made by Dynatech. I also made, in advance, a custom bolt in crossmember from a modified stock SC unit as can be seen in the pictures. A Z-handle on the stock Camaro shifter took care of boot alignment as the pictures show, requiring only minor trimming of the transmission tunnel.

More to come! As the weekend progresses......

All of that was handled in advance, and

talonhead
02-24-2012, 10:43 PM
Good job Dave! I ran into problems with the engine I was going to use. So My install is stalled again.
What are you going to use for speedo input?
MikeH

BLOWN38
02-24-2012, 10:45 PM
I don't see pics.:(

XR7 Dave
02-24-2012, 11:27 PM
First pic shows custom pilot bushing and separator plate installed.

XR7 Dave
02-24-2012, 11:30 PM
Next pictures show billet flywheel, twin disc Mcleod clutch, and blow shield installed on motor.

XR7 Dave
02-24-2012, 11:32 PM
Picture of the adjustable McLeod slave cylinder and the converted AN line on the stock SC master cylinder.

XR7 Dave
02-24-2012, 11:38 PM
Modifications and fitment of shifter. Haven't installed the cover yet, but we test fit before and I think it's going to clear ok. We'll document tomorrow.

schwalbe
02-25-2012, 01:55 AM
Good luck can't wait to see it

hawgy
02-25-2012, 04:11 AM
i want this in my car... how much for complete job will you charge me?:D

David Neibert
02-25-2012, 09:11 AM
Nice job Dave. Is this John Loudorf's car ?

David

XR7 Dave
02-25-2012, 09:28 AM
Nice job Dave. Is this John Loudorf's car ?

David
Yes this is John's car. I've had the parts here for a long time but finally got a chance to put it on the lift and "Do work."

Miller
02-25-2012, 09:42 AM
do work dave!

XxSlowpokexX
02-25-2012, 10:25 AM
Finally!..Hey is that McLeod flywheel for a 4.6 as well? If I ever go t56 I definitely want a dual disk flywheel. Really excited to see how this turns out

Mercutio
02-25-2012, 11:24 AM
This is relevant to my interests. David, do you know the weight difference, all things considered, between the M5R2 and the T56 setup?

Ira R.
02-25-2012, 04:02 PM
This is relevant to my interests. David, do you know the weight difference, all things considered, between the M5R2 and the T56 setup?

The heck with the weight difference! (well to a point I guess lol) Will the T56 shift where the M5R2 won't??

Ira

XxSlowpokexX
02-25-2012, 04:31 PM
Ive heard a t56 to be about 125 with bellhosuing and slave (someone I know that weighed one) Ive seen higher numbers online but I believe there may be alot of guessing..Im sure someone here knows what the SC tranny weighs

r1dd1ck913
02-25-2012, 04:48 PM
So who is going to sell a kit for the conversion?

XR7 Dave
02-25-2012, 05:20 PM
This is relevant to my interests. David, do you know the weight difference, all things considered, between the M5R2 and the T56 setup?

It's a lot heavier. Since it was never offered in production bolted to a SBF bellhousing, you have to run an aftermarket blowshield which is 1/4" steel and the separator plate is also 3/16" steel vs. the 16ga stamped steel plate that the stock M5R2 uses. Then there is the transmission itself which, without the bellhousing weighs more than an M5R2. Exactly how much I don't know, but I'd guess this combination adds an easy 30lbs vs. stock.

XR7 Dave
02-25-2012, 05:22 PM
The heck with the weight difference! (well to a point I guess lol) Will the T56 shift where the M5R2 won't??

Ira
I had no trouble shifting John's M5R2 @ 6700rpm, and quickly I might add. If you are having trouble shifting it can only be either driver or bad parts in the transmission. In the case of your car, I'll be finding out soon enough if there is a transmission problem. ;)

DLF
02-25-2012, 06:58 PM
It's a lot heavier. Since it was never offered in production bolted to a SBF bellhousing, you have to run an aftermarket blowshield which is 1/4" steel and the separator plate is also 3/16" steel vs. the 16ga stamped steel plate that the stock M5R2 uses. Then there is the transmission itself which, without the bellhousing weighs more than an M5R2. Exactly how much I don't know, but I'd guess this combination adds an easy 30lbs vs. stock.

I have a SBF T-56 aluminum bellhousing in my garage. Bought it a couple of years ago.

Mercutio
02-25-2012, 07:59 PM
Ford offered a T56 for SBF applications, part number M-7003-H. I'm not sure if it or the bell housing is still available, though. It's not currently on the Ford Racing site. I know bell housings have numbers M-7392-??, but I can't find one for the SBF T56. Still, it obviously existed at one point.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-7003-H/?rtype=10

XR7 Dave
02-25-2012, 08:50 PM
Cool! Well if you could find one that would certainly be helpful for someone wanting more of a stock replacement type install.

Also, something worthy of note would be that we used the GM 26 spline input shaft, but I'm guessing that the Ford 10 spline would make things easier for someone wanting to do this on a street only type car. I assume the Ford input shaft would be a tad shorter also because the GM input shaft was too long necessitating a custom pilot bushing.

We chose the 26 spline input shaft for greater strength and whether or not we could have sourced an aluminum bellhousing we wanted the blowshield anyway for protection since this car is going to be drag raced and the motor is capable of over 7000rpm.

That doesn't answer the weight question, but it seems to me that even without the bellhousing, the T56 is heavier than a complete M5R2. I have another one here I can weigh later sometime when I get a chance.

XR7 Dave
02-25-2012, 08:54 PM
Ok, so today's update:

Console cover went on fine. Turns out the shifter is actually too far back now since the shifter handle has a 2.5" offset. So we'll look for a less aggressive handle, but in the mean time everything is ok.

We spent most of today building merge collectors for the Kooks longtubes, installing a 3 gauge pillar pod, and fabricating the 4" intake for the 95MM TB.

Tomorrow we will put the car back up in the air to install the headers and connect that last few bits on the transmission. We'll also need to bleed the clutch and check operation of that system.

When we get the car back up in the air I'll get some pics of the custom cross member and other minor details.

Mercutio
02-25-2012, 09:39 PM
No way I'd pay this price, especially without a picture to compare, but: here's a supposed aluminum T56 bell housing for a 5.0. For all I know, this could be for a new 5.0, but I doubt it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/McLeod-ALUM-BELLHSG-5-0L-FORD-T56-157-ONLY-8-012BELL-/370521770492?hash=item5644d189fc&item=370521770492&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

XR7 Dave
02-28-2012, 09:34 PM
So we made some progress. Got everything fit up. Will need to find another shifter handle because this one sets back too far and lightly contacts the console when in 2nd gear.

Was unable to drive the car because I think I have too much clearance on the TO bearing and therefore clutch will not disengage. I will have to pull the trans out and shim the TO bearing for proper clearance. We were within spec according to McLeod, but on the very edge so we'll shoot for the other end of the specification this time and see how that works out.

neverfastenough
02-28-2012, 09:41 PM
Did you make the current shifter handle, or was it purchased?

XR7 Dave
02-28-2012, 09:55 PM
Some pics of the shifter and modified cross member. We purposely made the cross member so that no major modifications to the car were required, and so that the M5R2 can be easily re-installed should the need or desire arise.

talonhead
02-29-2012, 01:02 AM
Looks great Dave.
MikeH

talonhead
02-29-2012, 01:05 AM
No way I'd pay this price, especially without a picture to compare, but: here's a supposed aluminum T56 bell housing for a 5.0. For all I know, this could be for a new 5.0, but I doubt it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/McLeod-ALUM-BELLHSG-5-0L-FORD-T56-157-ONLY-8-012BELL-/370521770492?hash=item5644d189fc&item=370521770492&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Went to their site, no more info. Re-reviewed McLeod's info on their site. No alum. belhousings in their lineup.
MikeH

qc89SC
02-29-2012, 11:14 AM
wow this upgrade is awsome!!! keep up the good work!

MarksM
03-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Finally using some of those parts I see.... looking good.

90turbo1
03-03-2012, 04:31 PM
if you have a free min, could you maybee put a parts list with part numbers up on this post. maybee it can be turned into an Install DIY.

thanks

I have been throwing around this idea myself to swap my m5r2 for a t-56. What did you do about a drive shaft?

talonhead
03-03-2012, 05:52 PM
......But search can work.
I listed a lot of part #'s in this thread for my swap.
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75969
MikeH
p.s. Keep up the great work Dave!

talonhead
03-03-2012, 05:56 PM
There's been a lot of talk about T56's over the years, but finally we are going to put one in, get the job done, and let you know what it feels like.

Ok, in all honesty you may never actually complete a total install in one weekend without a lot of groundwork being done in advance, but the actual installation is quite doable.

Here we go.

First off, the ground work:

You'll need - A working T56. In this case we took an early Camaro Borg Warner T56 and updated the front cover and input shaft to a late model so that it would accept a diaphram style slave cylinder which we purchased in advance from McLeod along with a SBF bellhousing/SFI blowshield and separator plate. We used a custom McLeod lightweight billet steel flywheel and in this case a twin disc McLeod clutch originally designed for a 4.6L Cobra. Then we had to make sure we had all the right attaching bolts (none of the stock stuff or anything that came in any of the kits worked) and clutch line adapters for the master cylinder and -3 AN lines. Then you'll need a special lengthened driveshaft which we had custom made by Dynatech. I also made, in advance, a custom bolt in crossmember from a modified stock SC unit as can be seen in the pictures. A Z-handle on the stock Camaro shifter took care of boot alignment as the pictures show, requiring only minor trimming of the transmission tunnel.

More to come! As the weekend progresses......

All of that was handled in advance, and

custom shaft and modified x-mem.
MikeH

Micahdogg
03-16-2012, 10:54 AM
This is pretty cool....looking forward to how this turns out.

XR7 Dave
03-16-2012, 11:41 AM
Still having problems with the McLeod twin disc clutch. Once I get that figured out it will be on the road!

mywhite89
03-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Still having problems with the McLeod twin disc clutch. Once I get that figured out it will be on the road!

Wont disengage still Dave?

talonhead
03-16-2012, 09:52 PM
Hey Dave,
Have you tried shimming the pressure plate on the flywheel. McLeod told me a while back that I needed a shim ring to get the correct clearence for disengagement, but I am using a stock flywheel and pressure plate with their disc. Reason was that their disc is several thou thicher than stock.
Don't know if this will help.
Good luck,
MikeH

95_XR7
03-27-2012, 02:53 PM
Any update to this Dave?

-Corey

XR7 Dave
03-27-2012, 05:44 PM
Haven't had time to pull the trans back out again, other pressing projects. Will be taking it apart again soon to closely examine what is going on in there. :(

Micahdogg
03-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Not sure if this is helpful or not, but figured I would post it anyway:

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/mcleod’s-new-charts-helps-rstrxt-adapter-ring-orientation-issues/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=mcleod%25e2%2580%2599s-new-charts-helps-rstrxt-adapter-ring-orientation-issues

neverfastenough
05-30-2012, 12:56 PM
I know the powertour is coming up, planning to wrap this up upon your return? Anxious to put something like this on my future to do list.

rzimmerl
05-30-2012, 08:31 PM
Anxious to put something like this on my future to do list.

Gee, why could that be??? How many M5's you been thru now?

neverfastenough
05-31-2012, 07:02 AM
Gee, why could that be??? How many M5's you been thru now?

Counting yesterdays, 3

XR7 Dave
06-13-2012, 10:30 AM
Ok, so finally got to drive the car yesterday. Went the roundy rounds on the twin disc clutch and still have some issues to resolve, but so far making good progress.

The stock SC master cylinder has too much mechanical advantage over the Mcleod slave cylinder. From my discussions with McLeod it seems that the desired master piston diameter is about .700" whereas the SC master is about .900. This means that we achieve full extension of the slave very early in the stroke and as a result the pedal is overly firm and doesn't travel all the way to the floor. I think the solution here is to get an adjustable quadrant from McLeod to increase pedal travel.

If you were just into drag racing then this would be ok. You'd need to fabricate a pedal stop so you don't pop the slave seals, but it would be great for shifting quick, having only about 2.5" of pedal travel.

The tranny shifts nice and the clutch is awesome. Spendy, but awesome. On an extreme build like this one I think this is the only way to go.

Micahdogg
06-13-2012, 10:40 AM
I was doing a lot of thinking about the twin disc set up as we were in plenty of stop and go traffic on the HRPT. When that single disc was hot, it didn't like to be ridden for more than a few seconds.

talonhead
06-13-2012, 08:35 PM
Which trans front plate ar you running, GM or ford/viper/retro? Is your slave an internal or external? How much 'shim' is under the slave (if internal)?
If the volume of the master is to large, maybe a Viper slave would work (if front plate is the ford/viper/retro one). I have a Viper slave, SC master, single disc clutch in an older BW LS1 T56 with viper/retro front plate and about a 0.4" spacer disck under the slave.
If you have shim, taking it out will move the stroke complete point lower to the floor, as long as the slave is not over-extended it should be fine. The slave will only retract as far as the point where the pressure from the pressure plate via throwout bearing= slave/throwout spring pressure.

Finding a slave and master that will work together and give the preferred pedal height for dis/engagement would be my pref. Using a stop on so short of pedal movement ...not so much. If you moved the pedal pivot or master pivot to reduce the moment felt by the master would probably work(more pedal travel with less master push rod travel).
MikeH

jludorf
06-14-2012, 12:05 AM
The transmission is an LT1 with an LS1 front cover.