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bholmes
05-01-2012, 10:40 PM
I have searched this topic and not been able to find much information. What are the common problems with the manual trannys and auto trannys? What are the opinions floating around out there about each? I typically favor manuals but I have a few SC's I'm looking at in the next week or so and I am trying to figure out which is the best route to go. I had a 94 Thunderbird SC with auto a few years back. I loved the car in general, but was not impressed with the tranny as far as shifting. I know that can tweaked a shift kit if need be though. Primarily I'm looking at durability, cost of maintenance, maintenance intervals and common problems.

It seems alot of the mauals I have talked to people about have had new clutches or are needing clutches, is this generally a sign of abuse or is it just a natural course of events on the SC (over powered/under clutched).

nmcbchief
05-02-2012, 03:09 AM
The synchronizers are what usually give the most problems with the M5R2 transmissions. They can also feel notchy when trying to speed shift. Wish they were a little smoother but would rather have my 5 speed than an auto any day.

r1dd1ck913
05-02-2012, 03:12 AM
I would say 5 speed all the way. I swapped my 91 from a AOD to a M5R2 and it made it so much more fun to drive.

nickleman60
05-02-2012, 06:25 AM
I would say 5 speed all the way. I swapped my 91 from a AOD to a M5R2 and it made it so much more fun to drive.

But autos are faster at the track if that's your thing...........:D

90sc35thann
05-02-2012, 06:55 AM
You really can't replace the consistency of an auto at the track. I think the aod is a hell of a transmission if built properly. Honestly I had no issues with my aod's, aode's or our 4r70w that many club members complain about. :-) I prefer the 4r70w over the aod as a personal preference due to it's natural ability to handle more power but both transmissions are very tough when time is spent addressing the weak points. I also know there are folks on here that have had great success with the manual transmission. Again it really depends on for what you are looking. I love the torque multiplying capability of a torque converter down low and the consistency of the auto but love the control a driver has with a manual. Either way you could end up spending money repairing either both the manual or auto. Which do you prefer?

r1dd1ck913
05-02-2012, 10:33 AM
Yes you all have good points. If the car is a track car then yes an auto is the way to go. But for me my car is a DD for now. So I like to keep the fun factor of the car.

Micahdogg
05-02-2012, 11:02 AM
It depends on what you are doing with the car. Is this a daily driver or a pleasure vehicle. If pleasure - do you have plans of routinely racing the car on a drag strip or road course? Some of us are never happy, keep adding power, keep going to the track, keep improving on 1/4 mile times and in these cases - the manual can be a real Pain in the AZZ because the notchy shifting really shows up when you are at high rpm and need to grab gears as efficiently as possible to squeeze every tenth out of the car.

For just driving around, it's not this serious. So my opinion is, if you don't have any intentions of getting caught up in semi-routine drag racing - go with the manual. If you have some 1/4 mile goals already set in mind, the auto would probably save you a lot of aggrivation.

P.S. There is no "common" problem with the M5R2 other than the shifters get sloppy. Clutches just wear out over time. Even if the car is driven by a grandma, it can get glazed up and start to slip. The gearboxes are strong and parts are plentiful to keep them going. Get a B&M ripper shifter though. The AOD's are time tested and do fine too. You'll spend more money getting an AOD to perform though.

bowez
05-02-2012, 06:07 PM
The only issue I had with my AOD was OD band, trashed the last one in ~6k miles. At stock levels a AOD is just fine though.

With you have a 94 and a 4R70W you are starting with a better tranny but being a 94 you have a few minor issue (being a first year).

If your modding you will need to build any auto.

stangerbanger
05-02-2012, 08:45 PM
i swapped my supercoupe powered mustang from a stick to an auto and it is more fun on the track, but less fun on the street. i gained 6mpg with the auto because of driving style

bholmes
05-07-2012, 01:05 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I will be using the car as a DD. I know that the manuals had a higher rearend ration and are inherently more efficient if driven modestly than most the auto trannys. I doubt I will ever go to the strip, but I do look to modestly bump the HP sometime in the future (exhaust, intercooler and maybe pulleys). From the sounds of things I will continue to try to find the right 5spd car. I have found some nice auto tranny cars out there, but nothin like a clutch pedal in my opinion :)

Plat0ribs
05-07-2012, 02:46 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. All my cars are 5-speed except the Benz and I love to change it over.

My black build project may be set up to change from AOD to M5R2 w/o excessive handwaving...:rolleyes:

David Neibert
05-07-2012, 02:58 PM
I like the automatic transmission. If i was planning to build a high powered SC to race against motorcycles on the highway at speeds above 125, the manual transmission would be my choice. For pretty much everything else, I think the automatic is superior, especially a late model automatic with electronic controls and lockable converter.

David

MadMikeyL
05-07-2012, 06:25 PM
Personally I think an automatic transmission is a complete waste in these cars, or any performance car for that matter. People always say "an auto is more consistent", or "an auto is faster in the 1/4mi", and I call BS on both of these statements every time. People compare a professionally built automatic transmission, that was built to go in a drag car, and has a higher stall converter, and upgraded frictions, and a modified valve body and where the shift points are tuned in, with a stock 5-speed car and say "see, its faster and more consistent". Take that same car and put a close ratio Jerico 4-speed in it, and someone who knows how to properly drive a manual trans car, and see which one makes it down the 1/4mi faster or is more consistent now? I've never had a problem being more consistent in a manual trans car than in an automatic, and my opinion is that if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car, then you don't know how to drive at all, and if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car consistently, then you don't know how to drive consistently. Don't blame the transmission if the car is not consistent, blame the driver.

As far as these cars go in particular, if you were unhappy with the 4R70W in the 94, then you will be sorely disappointed with an AOD (aka a DOA trans). With stock power levels and in stock form, a DOA trans can last a long time, but they don't take kindly to having more power put through them, and they don't take kindly to WOT shifts, and they don't take kindly to the TV cable being slightly out of adjustment, and they don't take kindly to steeper rear end gears, and they don't take kindly to higher stall converters that still have a lockup, and they don't take kindly to higher trans temps that come with a non-lockup converter, and... well you get the idea. So before you are going to put any more power through an AOD, you need to either convert it to a 4R70, or drop $3K on a built trans. The 5-speeds are not without problems, but I'll take an M5R2 over any automatic any day. The M5R2s were originally designed as a truck transmission, so the gears themselves are very strong, and I have only heard of a few people actually doing any damage to them, however the synchros really aren't up to the task of speed shifting at 6K rpms. On the street under normal driving, they will wear out quicker than in a T5, but even on a freshly rebuilt trans, you might find that the gears grind when taching out 1st gear and grabbing 2nd. Also, the stock shifter is garbage, and in my opinion is the sole cause of the "notchy" shifts that everyone complains about with these transmissions. With a B&M ripper shifter, my M5R2s are just as easy to shift as my buddy's T5 or my Tremec 3650, both of which also have aftermarket shifters. That does bring us to the other problem with the M5R2 which is parts availability, or rather unavailability. The B&M shifter was the only performance shifter ever made for this trans, and it has been discontinued, so if you get a 5-speed car you will need to track down a used one, and since they are a necessary mod for any 5 speed car, and are not going to be produced anymore, used ones typically go for more than they did when they were new. Also, if your trans does require a rebuild, synchros are also unavailable, and the only option is to use ones for an F150, which will work but don't have the fiber lining, so the synchros that were not really up to the task before will now be even worse. Also, the gear ratios in the early style M5R2 are not ideal. 1st and 2nd are very steep, which is a lot of fun on the street, but then there is a very disappointing huge jump going to 3rd, then 4th is 1:1, and 5th is .75:1. The 94/95 M5R2s had a shallower 1st and 2nd gear, with 3rd, 4th, and 5th being the same, so all the gears are more evenly spaced, but that also means that with the stock 2.73 rear end gears, you are not getting as much torque multiplication out of the hole as the earlier style trans. Compensating by changing the rear end ratio will work, but then you still have only a .75 5th gear compared to say a T5's .67 or .62, which is better because how often are you taching out 4th gear and looking to grab another gear and keep accelerating? Ultimately, the best option would be a T56 swap, but for a street car I think you'll be quite happy with a good condition M5R2 with a B&M ripper shifter.

90sc35thann
05-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Personally I think an automatic transmission is a complete waste in these cars, or any performance car for that matter. People always say "an auto is more consistent", or "an auto is faster in the 1/4mi", and I call BS on both of these statements every time. People compare a professionally built automatic transmission, that was built to go in a drag car, and has a higher stall converter, and upgraded frictions, and a modified valve body and where the shift points are tuned in, with a stock 5-speed car and say "see, its faster and more consistent". Take that same car and put a close ratio Jerico 4-speed in it, and someone who knows how to properly drive a manual trans car, and see which one makes it down the 1/4mi faster or is more consistent now? I've never had a problem being more consistent in a manual trans car than in an automatic, and my opinion is that if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car, then you don't know how to drive at all, and if you don't know how to drive a manual trans car consistently, then you don't know how to drive consistently. Don't blame the transmission if the car is not consistent, blame the driver.

As far as these cars go in particular, if you were unhappy with the 4R70W in the 94, then you will be sorely disappointed with an AOD (aka a DOA trans). With stock power levels and in stock form, a DOA trans can last a long time, but they don't take kindly to having more power put through them, and they don't take kindly to WOT shifts, and they don't take kindly to the TV cable being slightly out of adjustment, and they don't take kindly to steeper rear end gears, and they don't take kindly to higher stall converters that still have a lockup, and they don't take kindly to higher trans temps that come with a non-lockup converter, and... well you get the idea. So before you are going to put any more power through an AOD, you need to either convert it to a 4R70, or drop $3K on a built trans. The 5-speeds are not without problems, but I'll take an M5R2 over any automatic any day. The M5R2s were originally designed as a truck transmission, so the gears themselves are very strong, and I have only heard of a few people actually doing any damage to them, however the synchros really aren't up to the task of speed shifting at 6K rpms. On the street under normal driving, they will wear out quicker than in a T5, but even on a freshly rebuilt trans, you might find that the gears grind when taching out 1st gear and grabbing 2nd. Also, the stock shifter is garbage, and in my opinion is the sole cause of the "notchy" shifts that everyone complains about with these transmissions. With a B&M ripper shifter, my M5R2s are just as easy to shift as my buddy's T5 or my Tremec 3650, both of which also have aftermarket shifters. That does bring us to the other problem with the M5R2 which is parts availability, or rather unavailability. The B&M shifter was the only performance shifter ever made for this trans, and it has been discontinued, so if you get a 5-speed car you will need to track down a used one, and since they are a necessary mod for any 5 speed car, and are not going to be produced anymore, used ones typically go for more than they did when they were new. Also, if your trans does require a rebuild, synchros are also unavailable, and the only option is to use ones for an F150, which will work but don't have the fiber lining, so the synchros that were not really up to the task before will now be even worse. Also, the gear ratios in the early style M5R2 are not ideal. 1st and 2nd are very steep, which is a lot of fun on the street, but then there is a very disappointing huge jump going to 3rd, then 4th is 1:1, and 5th is .75:1. The 94/95 M5R2s had a shallower 1st and 2nd gear, with 3rd, 4th, and 5th being the same, so all the gears are more evenly spaced, but that also means that with the stock 2.73 rear end gears, you are not getting as much torque multiplication out of the hole as the earlier style trans. Compensating by changing the rear end ratio will work, but then you still have only a .75 5th gear compared to say a T5's .67 or .62, which is better because how often are you taching out 4th gear and looking to grab another gear and keep accelerating? Ultimately, the best option would be a T56 swap, but for a street car I think you'll be quite happy with a good condition M5R2 with a B&M ripper shifter.

Wow! Well now that madmikeyl has spoken anyone running an automatic should start the process of converting to a manual. How much power does your SC have? How quick is it in the quarter mile?

MadMikeyL
05-07-2012, 08:21 PM
No idea how quick it is in the quarter, I haven't run it yet. I bought the car as it is as far as mods, and I am spending more time fixing stuff the previous owner hacked together and trying to make it a comfortable, fun, and reliable daily driver, and I really have no plans to try to make it a quick quarter mile car. I'm no professional or even experienced drag racer, and when I do go to the track in any of my cars, I do it only for fun, but I have no problem being far more consistent with a manual trans than most of the people there with autos, so if you are saying a manual trans can't be consistent, I have to disagree with you just on personal experience. And I'm not saying everyone should convert their auto to a manual, although I do admit I would love to see what cars like Neibert's would do with a T56, I just hate that manual transmissions are dismissed as being slower and inconsistent, and not once have I seen a legitimate comparison of a built auto vs. a built manual or a stock auto vs. a stock manual that supports that theory.

90sc35thann
05-07-2012, 08:58 PM
No idea how quick it is in the quarter, I haven't run it yet. I bought the car as it is as far as mods, and I am spending more time fixing stuff the previous owner hacked together and trying to make it a comfortable, fun, and reliable daily driver, and I really have no plans to try to make it a quick quarter mile car. I'm no professional or even experienced drag racer, and when I do go to the track in any of my cars, I do it only for fun, but I have no problem being far more consistent with a manual trans than most of the people there with autos, so if you are saying a manual trans can't be consistent, I have to disagree with you just on personal experience. And I'm not saying everyone should convert their auto to a manual, although I do admit I would love to see what cars like Neibert's would do with a T56, I just hate that manual transmissions are dismissed as being slower and inconsistent, and not once have I seen a legitimate comparison of a built auto vs. a built manual or a stock auto vs. a stock manual that supports that theory.

Most of my experience comes racing fox body Mustangs. I had a 1991 that ran 10.40's in the quarter mile and I did this with an AOD I built up myself. That AOD was like a timex watch. I must have had 150+ passes on that transmission without incident. My other transmission was an AODE I had in a 1995 Mustang. That car was NA and would run mid 12's consistently. That was nothing more than AODE with a nice converter and again ran without incident for over 100 passes. I also had a 1990 Thunderbird SC that broke into the 12's about 9 years ago and that was an AOD with a solid input shaft, Lentech valve body and a non-locking converter and yet again ran without incident and I may add is still being driven by the same person that bought my car 9 years later and has yet to have anything more than a fluid change. I will admit that he only drives the car to shows and doesn't drive it often. Still with the two years I beat the hell out of it and the 9 years he has driven it without incident isn't too bad. I could go on with my auto's but I think you get the picture. I have also had my fair share of manuals and I can say that albeit all were fun to drive but not once did I think about running one at the drag strip for one reason and one alone. No matter how well a manual transmission is built up, people still make mistakes. We miss shifts, shift too soon, hell even shift at different RPM from time to time, launch RPM changes, etc. BTW - none of these potential changes would be the transmissions fault. It's all about the human error. Strictly from a personal standpoint if I want to build a drag car, I want to eliminate as much of the human factor as possible. Worrying about shift points, and missing shifts, etc. is less for me to think about. I have seen plenty of fast manuals, and undoubtedly their is less HP loss with a manual. I like manuals. My 2011 Mustang GT is a manual. BTW - the MT82 6 speed manual in the Mustang GT is a big ~~~. Just google MT82 and see for yourself. I wish I had went with the 6R80W. That's another story. As I digress. At any rate i will get off my pulpit now. LOL.

XR7 Dave
05-07-2012, 09:29 PM
Primarily I'm looking at durability, cost of maintenance, maintenance intervals and common problems.

It seems alot of the mauals I have talked to people about have had new clutches or are needing clutches, is this generally a sign of abuse or is it just a natural course of events on the SC (over powered/under clutched).

To answer just your question and try not to put too much opinion in there.....:cool:

Durability: - All of the SC automatic transmissions have a lifespan of no more than 100K miles. If anyone has more than that on on original auto, new or old style, you are on borrowed time. With a 5spd unless it's been abused, 200K miles is no problem. Durability hands down 5spd.

Cost of maintenance: - I think the 5spd gets the edge here too. Some people can burn up a clutch in 5K miles or less. It's all driver. I changed the original clutch in my XR7 at nearly 200K for the first time. I was worried about it since I tend to race quite a bit as well as did a lot of towing over the years (yes towing). It was still quite servicable when removed. The clutch in the SC is the biggest clutch of any Ford product including trucks. It's not under-clutched. Shifters all need replaced after about 100K miles, and a rebuild is about $800 most places if you need syncro's.

On the auto you have the problem of a converter that almost always balloons, bands that wear out, and internal hard parts that break. A decent rebuild with an improved converter is about $1500. Fortunately (or not depending on how you look at it), that's about all that goes wrong with them. A lot of people nurse partially broken auto's for awhile before springing for the rebuild, so just expect if you buy an auto with over 100K you are probably looking at a tranny rebuild.

Common problems: 5spd - as mentioned, shifter failures. syncros can go out, slave cylinders can seize up or leak, clutch/TO bearing can fail. That's about the most of it really. Shifters are about the most common failure.

Auto - ballooned converters, broken input shafts (only when too much power applied), OD band failures, TV cable maladjustments, lack of fluid change/insufficient cooling in some cases), broken parts in the converter and/or one of the drums (not sure on that, not an auto expert).

You didn't ask which one was faster or which one we prefer so I'll leave that one alone.

If I were looking to buy an SC and didn't much care which one I bought, I'd probably look at how I drive it first - if you are in constant stop and go traffic, I would not want a 5spd for daily driving. If your driving is more open, then this wouldn't matter. The second thing I'd look at is how accurately can I determine the condition of the transmission prior to purchasing? An auto can be hard to tell. It might drive ok on the test drive and then crap out on the way home or your first day going to work. A 5spd is really easy to tell if it shifts right or not. If it shifts good, then it is. If it grinds, it's not (well other than reverse, that nearly always grinds anyway).

MadMikeyL
05-07-2012, 10:02 PM
I know all about the MT82, and I would not reccomend anyone use that transmission. If I were looking at buying a 2011 Mustang, I would have to factor in the cost of a TR-6060 precisely because of those issues. I know people can make mistakes, miss shifts, etc., but that to me is part of the fun of drag racing, challenging yourself to do everything right. If all you have to do is go when the light turns green and keep your foot on the floor, then anyone could be in the driver's seat and come up with the same result, so to me that has removed all the enjoyment of driving. If you are building a drag car for competition, and it will never do anything other than go down a drag strip, then I can see using an automatic, but to me, if you want to enjoy the car, and enjoy the driving experience, then you need a manual trans.

kenewagner
05-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Still give the nod, in my opinion to the auto. I think if there was a better alternative to the stock manual that easily bolted in place of the stock manual they would be as fast. But the records in this club show that the autos rules on the 1/4 and the manuals rule on the dyno. If you go to V6 power you will see the eact same thing. The fast guys are autos and the slow guys are manuals. I spent 1500 bucks for a used low mile Lentec auto. Sold my old AOD for 400 bucks. Bought a 9.5" converter for 500 bucks, so 1600 bucks for a consistent hard running auto. If we are talking a fairly stock SC than a manual would be fun. Nobody, in this club has spent the bucks to make a 10 second manual SC. Would be cool to see that though. I dont really count the turbo guys in this battle of autos vs Manuals (sorry Corey and Casey) Im sure both these guys will go into the 10s with manuals but than if your making 800 rwhp even a manual cant hold back a 10. The autos are there making almost half of that HP number. Im sure there are many manuals out there in diffrrent platforms running faster than autos but it just aint so, for now, on our platform

Ken

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 09:13 AM
Still give the nod, in my opinion to the auto. I think if there was a better alternative to the stock manual that easily bolted in place of the stock manual they would be as fast. But the records in this club show that the autos rules on the 1/4 and the manuals rule on the dyno. If you go to V6 power you will see the eact same thing. The fast guys are autos and the slow guys are manuals. I spent 1500 bucks for a used low mile Lentec auto. Sold my old AOD for 400 bucks. Bought a 9.5" converter for 500 bucks, so 1600 bucks for a consistent hard running auto. If we are talking a fairly stock SC than a manual would be fun. Nobody, in this club has spent the bucks to make a 10 second manual SC. Would be cool to see that though. I dont really count the turbo guys in this battle of autos vs Manuals (sorry Corey and Casey) Im sure both these guys will go into the 10s with manuals but than if your making 800 rwhp even a manual cant hold back a 10. The autos are there making almost half of that HP number. Im sure there are many manuals out there in diffrrent platforms running faster than autos but it just aint so, for now, on our platform

Ken

Ken, are you trying to help the original poster or are you just arguing? If you want to argue......

- The cost for a rebuilt AOD with Lentech VB and 9.5" converter is about $2500. Cost for a freshly rebuilt 5spd, Centerforce clutch and Ripper Shifter is about $1350. That you bought yours used for $1600 is irrelevant. I bought a used, but freshly rebuilt 95 (holy grail of 5spds) transmission for $200. I sold my working old style for $150. I took a lightly used CF clutch that I got for free, added a new CF disc for $100, and a Ripper Shifter I got off Ebay for $100 and now I have exactly $250 in my premium 5spd setup.

- In 2003 I raced Kurt K at the 2003 SC Shootout, him with his CMSII engine and S-Port blower, me with my home built, stock bottom end motor and S-Port blower. I ran 12.66 to his 12.68, both at about 106mph as I recall. We raced again in 2004, this time the win going to Kurt, with just about exactly the same ET's. Both times as I recall I got Kurt off the line, then he pulled on me pretty good in 2nd, and I gained it back on the top end (almost). Point is, you can race door to door, auto and 5spd, with similar power levels and/or similar mods. As far as the whole 10 second thing goes, there are 4 people who have done that so far with an SC. That none of them has the balls to try it with a manual transmission is their own choice. No, I wouldn't probably be using an M5R2 at that point, but to imply that it can't be done is a little premature.

In any vehicle platform, as the car goes faster and faster it becomes more and more difficult to drive a manual which means it requires more skill and better parts. It's always easier to drive an auto, but if you really think that lining up against a manual transmission car is going to make for an easy win, that's just foolishness.

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
People compare a professionally built automatic transmission, that was built to go in a drag car, and has a higher stall converter, and upgraded frictions, and a modified valve body and where the shift points are tuned in, with a stock 5-speed car and say "see, its faster and more consistent". Take that same car and put a close ratio Jerico 4-speed in it, and someone who knows how to properly drive a manual trans car, and see which one makes it down the 1/4mi faster or is more consistent now?

You can't call your average built AOD (with convertor, internal upgrades, beefy cooler, etc...) a "drag car" transmission and compare it to a Jerico. These AOD's are very much streetable, which is why most of the time the convertors are selected for street use in mind.

A 5 speed that outperforms an automatic is still an outlier in the overwhelming majority of street/strip SC's represented in this club and to insinuate that you can outperform an AOD is doing the newer crowd a disservice.

Also, the "someone who knows how to properly drive..." is flippantly tossed around. These people are far and few between, but everyone can properly drive an AOD. Everyone agrees that you will spend more money, and more frustration getting an AOD to do what you want. But if you have quarter mile goals in mind - it is still wiser to pursue that path IMO.

Edit - Bill has brand new shifters for sale all day long. But that still isn't the sole cause of the notchy shifting. To the OP, take everything that MadMikey is saying with a big grain of salt. Nearly everything he posted is derived from some truth - but seriously tilted.

kenewagner
05-08-2012, 10:52 AM
Ken, are you trying to help the original poster or are you just arguing? If you want to argue......

- The cost for a rebuilt AOD with Lentech VB and 9.5" converter is about $2500. Cost for a freshly rebuilt 5spd, Centerforce clutch and Ripper Shifter is about $1350. That you bought yours used for $1600 is irrelevant. I bought a used, but freshly rebuilt 95 (holy grail of 5spds) transmission for $200. I sold my working old style for $150. I took a lightly used CF clutch that I got for free, added a new CF disc for $100, and a Ripper Shifter I got off Ebay for $100 and now I have exactly $250 in my premium 5spd setup.

- In 2003 I raced Kurt K at the 2003 SC Shootout, him with his CMSII engine and S-Port blower, me with my home built, stock bottom end motor and S-Port blower. I ran 12.66 to his 12.68, both at about 106mph as I recall. We raced again in 2004, this time the win going to Kurt, with just about exactly the same ET's. Both times as I recall I got Kurt off the line, then he pulled on me pretty good in 2nd, and I gained it back on the top end (almost). Point is, you can race door to door, auto and 5spd, with similar power levels and/or similar mods. As far as the whole 10 second thing goes, there are 4 people who have done that so far with an SC. That none of them has the balls to try it with a manual transmission is their own choice. No, I wouldn't probably be using an M5R2 at that point, but to imply that it can't be done is a little premature.

In any vehicle platform, as the car goes faster and faster it becomes more and more difficult to drive a manual which means it requires more skill and better parts. It's always easier to drive an auto, but if you really think that lining up against a manual transmission car is going to make for an easy win, that's just foolishness.

You are correct Dave in that my response is not what the original post began with and your response was better in terms on maintenance and cost. I got a little side tracked. I dont think my reply was agumentative but more a statement of what I see on the performance side which was brought up as well. I post my expenses on my tranny as I felt it was a good example of what an auto built up to last for ocassional 1/4 mile and street driving cost. What would the cost be to switch in a better manual vs what I spent was what I was looking at, vs just rebuilding a stock manual, which is definitely cheaper. My point was I just dont see any manuals in this club running even close to a 10 second quarter. I also think there are manuals that could be installed to make that happen. It would take a kit to modify a better tranny to fit our platform and though I have read some threads about some conversions, they have yet to show any results and what would that cost be compared to what I spent? Not looking to agrue with anyone, just stating what I see. Im sure someone will prove me wrong at the track and that wont be a first;)

Ken

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 11:29 AM
Ira ran quicker than you with his stock M5R2 and a smaller twin screw. I hope I'm not beating him up too much if I say he really doesn't know how to drive a manual, or if he knows, at least by his own admission has trouble making it all work out. Point is it doesn't take a pro to run mid 11's with a stock 5spd. Ira's car has no trick parts, just what I listed above. Jay used to run mid 11's also. The quickest all internally stock SC also just happens to be a 5spd.

That most SC owners aren't true drag racers and prefer to "ride" in their car rather than "drive" it, is a matter of demographics moreso than science. If someone really wanted to put a Richmond 5spd and long style clutch in their SC, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. It wouldn't cost more than a well built AOD setup.

I also don't know where all this "notching shifting" crap comes from other than perhaps old, abused transmissions with badly chewed up syncronizer teeth comes from. The M5R2 actually shifts pretty damn good considering, just as long as it's in good shape and the driver knows how to shift properly. Mike Puckett can testify to that.

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 11:39 AM
In any vehicle platform, as the car goes faster and faster it becomes more and more difficult to drive a manual which means it requires more skill and better parts. It's always easier to drive an auto, but if you really think that lining up against a manual transmission car is going to make for an easy win, that's just foolishness.

I seldom get lined up against a manual transmission SC, because they are always racing in a slower class. Here's a video of the last time I raced a manual trans SC with comparable power. He launched great, but it looks like something went wrong on the shift to 2nd. If we would have been racing on the highway from a 50 mph roll, I think he could have easily beat me. I'm not knocking Ira, because I think he did great on the hardest part (launching) and nearly everyone seems to have difficulty shifting those transmissions.

http://youtu.be/SaX4Z7M4LPE

David

kenewagner
05-08-2012, 11:48 AM
Ira ran quicker than you with his stock M5R2 and a smaller twin screw. I hope I'm not beating him up too much if I say he really doesn't know how to drive a manual, or if he knows, at least by his own admission has trouble making it all work out. Point is it doesn't take a pro to run mid 11's with a stock 5spd. Ira's car has no trick parts, just what I listed above. Jay used to run mid 11's also.
That most SC owners aren't true drag racers and prefer to "ride" in their car rather than "drive" it, is a matter of demographics moreso than science. If someone really wanted to put a Richmond 5spd and long style clutch in their SC, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. It wouldn't cost more than a well built AOD setup.



Ira was also making about 470+ rwhp and ran his best of 11.5 or 11.6 to my just a little over 400 rwhp. Kurt is running a little less than 400 (could be wrong there) and running 11.5. Chris is well into the 10s with the same hp as Ira old engine at the rear wheels. You are really good with the manuals, which im sure everyone would agree with. If Ira was still running 470+ hp (which I know hes not) and you were driving his manual car, would you be able to pick up .7 of a second to run neck and neck with chris in his auto? I know, I know this is internet racing but it has been kindof slow around here you know:D Installing a much better manual setup would be cool and I would love to see it done, no argument there;)

Ken

Ken

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 12:00 PM
In each case, if you want to have some kind of pleasure on the streets, an all drag Auto or Manual would suck. Who wants to drive their jerico manual trans car to work every day for a week? No one.

So if going fast in a manual means having a clutch that basically slams on and off, or constantly chewing up expensive twin disc set-ups, or any ill temperment, I would rather just have an AOD. Most people want to enjoy their car when they drive it.

One thing that I also prefer with a manual for a street/strip car is 100% gear control. Have any of you auto guys ever driven around a turn and had your cars downshift suddenly and get squirrely? That never happens in a manual which is a nice silver lining.

BirdofPrey97
05-08-2012, 12:02 PM
I just put a new FOB 90 Manual trans in. Filled it with Syncro fluid instead of the ATF and have Centerforce DFX clutch and it is the best shifting I have had. Yes, that includes the B&M shifter in the combo.

Owned Manuals and Autos AOD and 4R70W SCs and there is just no comparison. Manual all the way. IMO

Roadhawg
05-08-2012, 12:06 PM
Manuals are fun, except when it comes to stop and go traffic :(

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 12:16 PM
I seldom get lined up against a manual transmission SC, because they are always racing in a slower class. Here's a video of the last time I raced a manual trans SC with comparable power. He launched great, but it looks like something went wrong on the shift to 2nd. If we would have been racing on the highway from a 50 mph roll, I think he could have easily beat me. I'm not knocking Ira, because I think he did great on the hardest part (launching) and nearly everyone seems to have difficulty shifting those transmissions.

David

David, you seldom line up against one because no one with a 5spd has a car in general that is comparable to yours. We haven't had a fast 5spd car show up at the Shootout ready to race in years and all the St. Louis guys are wimps (ya, I said that).

Most of the comments about difficulty shifting come from guys with automatics, or blown out 5spds. Yes, shifting your own transmission does open up the possibility of missed shifts but that's just a matter of shifting for yourself, regardless of platform. The first time I drove Micah's car with him in the passenger seat, about all he could say was "how did you do that?" or something to that effect. I didn't have any problem shifting his transmission.

I don't like how these "discussions" always end up where the auto guys are implying that the rest of us that we are "silly" for driving a fast 5spd when the fact is we are all silly for drag racing an MN12, something we all get reminded of every time we go to an open race day event. No matter how fast your car is, the first comment is to the effect "what a waste", or "it would be so bad ~~~ to have this in a Mustang."

I don't understand why we can't accept that a 5spd is cheaper and easier to maintain, and that AOD's are a horrible transmission (just ask any transmission specialist or drag racer that doesn't drive an SC) but that a manual transmission (any manual transmission) is going to be harder to drive fast in the quarter mile. Those are facts, the rest is all preference.

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 12:24 PM
Ira was also making about 470+ rwhp and ran his best of 11.5 or 11.6 to my just a little over 400 rwhp. Kurt is running a little less than 400 (could be wrong there) and running 11.5. Chris is well into the 10s with the same hp as Ira old engine at the rear wheels. You are really good with the manuals, which im sure everyone would agree with. If Ira was still running 470+ hp (which I know hes not) and you were driving his manual car, would you be able to pick up .7 of a second to run neck and neck with chris in his auto? I know, I know this is internet racing but it has been kindof slow around here you know:D Installing a much better manual setup would be cool and I would love to see it done, no argument there;)

Ken

Ken

Ken, stop talking HP numbers. If you put a manual behind your motor you would magically pick up 50rwhp. The idea that you are going just as quick with less HP is a convenient mis-truth. If parasitic losses were the same, your motor would put similar power to the ground. No auto runs faster with less mods or less cylinder pressure than a 5spd, it's just that more is absorbed then released through torque multiplication, etc. by the converter so you don't see it on a dyno chart.

There is nothing wrong with the M5R2 transmission. Auto guys should not be complaining about them when they don't own or drive one. Upgrading the transmission as I suggested to a Richmond or something like that is part of the process of targeting the car for drag racing use - kind of like auto guys putting in a C4, Powerglide, or TH400 as the case may be, and has nothing to do with any shortcomings of the M5R2 other than the fact that it is not a drag racing transmission.

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 12:29 PM
Chris is well into the 10s with the same hp as Ira old engine at the rear wheels. Chris is not well into the 10's. His car runs 10's on occasion. He is also running about 3psi more boost than Ira did, has a ton more practice, and just happens to run at some of the fastest tracks in the country. Ira's car is currently way down on power, something we hope to change soon, but either way having recently driven Ira's car, I can attest that it is far from being properly set up to handle the power level he's at even now.

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 12:44 PM
One thing that I also prefer with a manual for a street/strip car is 100% gear control. Have any of you auto guys ever driven around a turn and had your cars downshift suddenly and get squirrely? That never happens in a manual which is a nice silver lining.

Yes, I do get unwanted downshifts with the AOD in my 91, and yes it has put me sideways on an entrance ramp to the highway a time or two :eek:

The full manual VB w/trans brake in the built up AOD I use in my 93 SC, eliminates that issue. Even with having to manually up and downshift every gear, I like it a lot better than the automatic shifting VB in my 91 SC. I can hold all the gears as long as I want and it never drops down a gear and scares the crap out of me like the automatic shifting VB.

David

TbirdSCFan
05-08-2012, 12:44 PM
On the road, a 5 speed is hands down better to drive. On a road course, again better by far.. in traffic though its a different story. If you want to ride with the A/C on and talk to a passenger, even chomp on a burger, then the auto is the way to go. I like the 5sp because it holds the gear; whereas the auto upshifts on partial throttle :( causing you to push back wayyy down on the pedal to get it back where you wanted it in the first place :mad:

So I have and drive both. But the 5speed is sort of my preference. Oh, and for me, it gets about 10% better gas mileage w/o having to drive with a soft foot.

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 12:52 PM
Dave reminded me of Silver lining #2 for the M5R2:

I can rebuild it. In fact, several M5R2 owners rebuild their own transmissions. The saved money in labor is nice.

P.S. David, I think a manually shifted AOD would be pretty fun. I keep forgetting that you have that in your 93.

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 12:54 PM
If you want to ride with the A/C on and talk to a passenger, even chomp on a burger, then the auto is the way to go.

What does talking to a passenger or having AC on have to do with a manual? In fact, the AC problems seem to be with the high power auto cars.

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 12:58 PM
David, you seldom line up against one because no one with a 5spd has a car in general that is comparable to yours. We haven't had a fast 5spd car show up at the Shootout ready to race in years and all the St. Louis guys are wimps (ya, I said that).

Most of the comments about difficulty shifting come from guys with automatics, or blown out 5spds. Yes, shifting your own transmission does open up the possibility of missed shifts but that's just a matter of shifting for yourself, regardless of platform. The first time I drove Micah's car with him in the passenger seat, about all he could say was "how did you do that?" or something to that effect. I didn't have any problem shifting his transmission.

I don't like how these "discussions" always end up where the auto guys are implying that the rest of us that we are "silly" for driving a fast 5spd when the fact is we are all silly for drag racing an MN12, something we all get reminded of every time we go to an open race day event. No matter how fast your car is, the first comment is to the effect "what a waste", or "it would be so bad ~~~ to have this in a Mustang."

I don't understand why we can't accept that a 5spd is cheaper and easier to maintain, and that AOD's are a horrible transmission (just ask any transmission specialist or drag racer that doesn't drive an SC) but that a manual transmission (any manual transmission) is going to be harder to drive fast in the quarter mile. Those are facts, the rest is all preference.

I can accept all that stuff, and generally speaking I prefer a manual transmission over an automatic. I just think it's easier to go fast in an MN12 with an automatic (even the hunk of junk AOD), and there is a much lower chance of breaking stuff.

If I had a new Challenger, Camaro or Mustang...I'd want a manual transmission and I'd probably enjoy driving my 91 a lot more on the street if it had a manual transmission. Since I still plan to race the car once or twice a year, I'll stick with the automatic. When this AOD bites the dust I will be switching to a 4Rw70 or whatever it's called, just so I can program the shifts and converter lockup.

David

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 01:10 PM
Dave reminded me of Silver lining #2 for the M5R2:

I can rebuild it. In fact, several M5R2 owners rebuild their own transmissions. The saved money in labor is nice.

P.S. David, I think a manually shifted AOD would be pretty fun. I keep forgetting that you have that in your 93.

Micah,

I manually shift my 91 SC when racing or acting sporty out on the street, but that doesn't really involve doing much besides moving the shifter a notch during the burnout, then pulling it back to first and trying to hit the shifts going into 2nd and 3rd at the correct RPMS. My screw ups are usually shifting late on the 1-2 shift and hitting the rev limiter, and with the 93 I once hit the shifter a little to hard and accidentially shifted from 1st into 3rd while under full power on the track, which is probably what broke it.

Biggest downside is that I can't use full power in either car while in OD because the OD band can't handle the torque. So the fun ends at the top of 3rd gear at around 125 mph (with street tires).

David

Roadhawg
05-08-2012, 01:14 PM
IIf I had a new Challenger, Camaro or Mustang...I'd want a manual transmission

David

Have you seen a new 5.0 Mustang auto 6spd on the track...:eek:

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 01:20 PM
Have you seen a new 5.0 Mustang auto 6spd on the track...:eek:

Yes...and I've also heard the Mustang manual transmissions are weak crap. Since I wouldn't be racing it, I think the manual transmission would be better for how I would be using the car.

David

Roadhawg
05-08-2012, 01:25 PM
Yes...and I've also heard the Mustang manual transmissions are weak crap. Since I wouldn't be racing it, I think the manual transmission would be better for how I would be using the car.

David

Come on...... a 200 shot of Nitrous on a full weight (3980) 2012 Mustang with a bone stock factory auto can yield a 10.30 @127mph. :)

David Neibert
05-08-2012, 01:33 PM
Come on...... a 200 shot of Nitrous on a full weight (3980) 2012 Mustang with a bone stock factory auto can yield a 10.30 @127mph. :)

Todd,

If I get a Mustang it will be a 2013 GT-500 and I wouldn't do anything but upgrade to a big twin screw. As I understand it, they aren't offered with an automatic...and that's fine because I wouldn't be racing it.

David

Roadhawg
05-08-2012, 01:37 PM
Todd,

If I get a Mustang it will be a 2013 GT-500 and I wouldn't do anything but upgrade to a big twin screw. As I understand it, they aren't offered with an automatic...and that's fine because I wouldn't be racing it.

David

Believe me I understand....I have a bone stock 2003 Mach 1 that has never seen the track.

ricardoa1
05-08-2012, 02:13 PM
This topic again?

:confused:


The conclusion always predictable. :rolleyes:


I have forgotten how to drive a manual transmission my cars have been down all winter. And the rest of the cars in the stable are Autos.

But I do know that the early M5R2 in my anniversary shifts great. And the one in my blue car is not as nice and 4th grinds when shifted fast using the CF lined blocker. But neither shift all that great past 6500rpms

But id like to know why Ira does not let Dalke drive his car at the events before comparing Iras driving.

I feel like peak numbers and times always come up when its time to make a point.

I'm all up for manuals going down the track as quick as possible but you would figure someone would have had this manual shifting down by now. Its been 20+ years in the M5R2 application.

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 02:59 PM
neither shift all that great past 6500rpms

But id like to know why Ira does not let Dalke drive his car at the events before comparing Iras driving.

I've driven his car. When it made 300rwhp I ran 12.7's with it. That I don't drive it at the Shootout is another story. 1) People get pissed at me for driving other people's cars when they lose, 2) I'm generally too busy anyway, 3) It's Ira's car, Ira's money, and Ira's vacation time. He doesn't bring his car to the Shootout so I can run it.

I also can't just get in a car and magically run a perfect number. It takes time and practice which if I used the Shootout to do this, the owner wouldn't get to drive his own car which certainly isn't fair. I'm not the best driver in the world (Gary Kuhn repeatedly beat me in the same car) but I'm quite certain that most 5spd guys sell themselves short by not practicing/learning how to shift. I don't have any problems with high rpm shifts. I shifted John's car at 6800rpm at the Shootout last year. For the record though, anyone with a hydraulic roller cam shifting at 6500rpm and above is just being plain abusive. Your valvetrain is not designed for that kind of rpm.


I feel like peak numbers and times always come up when its time to make a point.

I'm all up for manuals going down the track as quick as possible but you would figure someone would have had this manual shifting down by now. Its been 20+ years in the M5R2 application. Shifting has never been a problem except on these boards and within these discussions. I've been drag racing my XR7 since 1992 and I would not say I've had extraordinary problems with any of it. I had some issues at the 2003 Shootout missing shifts repeatedly, but that was the first time I had driven with the Ripper shifter and it was giving me problems. Again, not the fault of the transmission. Mike Puckett bracket races his car with consistency. I'm thinking he knows how to shift too.

It doesn't help when people brow beat themselves or talk down on the car. I know you have driven many different cars, so I'm not sure why you think there is an extraordinary problem with the M5R2. Maybe you didn't drag race the other cars? I don't know.

kenewagner
05-08-2012, 03:06 PM
But id like to know why Ira does not let Dalke drive his car at the events before comparing Iras driving.

I feel like peak numbers and times always come up when its time to make a point.

I'm all up for manuals going down the track as quick as possible but you would figure someone would have had this manual shifting down by now. Its been 20+ years in the M5R2 application.

Well how would you compare numbers? Make 10 runs apiece on the same track, same driver? That would be the best, not likely to happen. I was throwing Ira car with his hot motor and manual against the fastest auto with comparable HP to the rear wheels to attempt an apples to apples comparison. Best time for Ira was 11.63 Best time for Chris was 10.74. Thats a .89 diffrence. Thats a lot of diffrence for someone who can shift faster and smoother than our beloved Ira to make up on skill alone.

Its just one of those topics that are discussed in the world of fast cars everywhere and never has a concrete answer. Internet racing at its best:D:D

TbirdSCFan
05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
What does talking to a passenger or having AC on have to do with a manual? In fact, the AC problems seem to be with the high power auto cars. Comfort.. :D Windows up, A/C on, leisurely drive.. don't have to grab the shifter and push it around while talking. Slurp on your milkshake. And the biggee... don't have to drop your phone when you need to change gears. In general my 5 spd is for sporty driving.. its kinda rough, noisey, and I like it. :D

BirdofPrey97
05-08-2012, 03:50 PM
Comfort.. :D Windows up, A/C on, leisurely drive.. don't have to grab the shifter and push it around while talking. Slurp on your milkshake. And the biggee... don't have to drop your phone when you need to change gears. In general my 5 spd is for sporty driving.. its kinda rough, noisey, and I like it. :D

Most don't have cup holders for the drinks anyhow. :p;)

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 04:08 PM
Comfort.. :D Windows up, A/C on, leisurely drive.. don't have to grab the shifter and push it around while talking. Slurp on your milkshake. And the biggee... don't have to drop your phone when you need to change gears. In general my 5 spd is for sporty driving.. its kinda rough, noisey, and I like it. :D

That comment reminded me of a picture:

http://humorpig.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Makes-no-sense1.jpg

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Well how would you compare numbers? Make 10 runs apiece on the same track, same driver? That would be the best, not likely to happen. I was throwing Ira car with his hot motor and manual against the fastest auto with comparable HP to the rear wheels to attempt an apples to apples comparison. Best time for Ira was 11.63 Best time for Chris was 10.74. Thats a .89 diffrence. Thats a lot of diffrence for someone who can shift faster and smoother than our beloved Ira to make up on skill alone.


I guess I'm not getting through. Regardless of what you read at the rear tires on a dyno, Chris' car is not comparable to Ira's. I spec'd all the parts for both motors, I built both sets of heads, and I spec'd both cams. I built both blower kits, and I know what each one is running.

1) Chris has a 2.0 AR with more OD than Ira's 1.7L. He makes significantly more boost - on the order of 3# or so. Chris is running at least 10% MORE OD on his BIGGER blower than Ira is.

2) Their heads are comparable, but Chris' motor has significantly more cam than Ira's. His motor flat out has more airflow capacity than Ira's.

3) Chris runs race fuel and alcohol injection. He runs more timing and cylinder pressure than Ira. Ira runs pump gas with alcohol injection and his tune is not as agressive.

4) Ira's car has an AC core in front of his IC and his car weighs significantly more than Chris' - like on the order of 300lbs+ race weight.

5) Ira runs on ET Street DOT tires. Chris has true slicks and they are wider than Ira's. Chris has significantly more bite off the line available to him. He also has better gearing.

6) Chris has a lot more practice than Ira. Ira drag races once or twice a year and does it with a bum knee/hip whatever. He has contemplated putting an auto in the car just because he can't move his leg fast enough anymore.

7) Back when Ira had posted a best of 13.1 with his car, I took it to my local track (a solid 1000ft higher elevation than his home track) and ran 12.7's. That's .4 sec. Could I run 11.2's in Ira's car now? Probably not. But I think you can see that there is quite a bit of room for driver improvement.

Of course this is bench racing and doesn't mean squat - but yes it does mean squat. Because you guys are making people feel bad about their stuff. Yes, you are slowly convincing guys that 5spds are no good when there really isn't any objective evidence to support that assertion. Just because you have the most voices doesn't make you right.

It definitely does take more skill to run fast in a 5spd. If you want the easy way out, just put in an auto. That doesn't make it superior.

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 05:02 PM
How did Gary Kuhn's car rank in the day. He had a fast 5 speed.

bowez
05-08-2012, 06:23 PM
Back to the costs. I had Dan build my AOD last year for ~$1800 with convertor and VB. I have no issues about up/downshifts unless have the shifter in O/D position.
My wife's 5.0 (MN-12) needs a rebuild and Alan can source me the parts for ~$700--no not the exact same build but the major portion of it.

Costs of them boils down to--IMHO--are you willing to do it yourself.

XR7 Dave
05-08-2012, 07:03 PM
How did Gary Kuhn's car rank in the day. He had a fast 5 speed.

Gary's car was #3-4 at the time. 11.68 vs. Coy's #'s, whatever JD ran, and Chris Wise. Gary's car was never properly set up either, but it was pretty light. It was making 335rwhp on motor + 75 shot as I recall.

Miller
05-08-2012, 07:16 PM
wasn't casey running like 12.0's with 300whp in his 5spd ?

90sc35thann
05-08-2012, 08:47 PM
Can't we all just get along? The manuals are nice and so are the autos. I have built a number of aod's and none were junk. The aod is not junk as someone eluded to earlier.

Micahdogg
05-08-2012, 10:27 PM
The Super Coupes were only offered with a manual.

ricardoa1
05-08-2012, 11:02 PM
My point about peak numbers, is that comparing them you have many other variables. Ideal situations and that now set ups are identical. Just like Dave pointed out. The correct comparison is taking the same car and swapping over the drive train on the same set up. A good example is Brian. But im sure he had a few changes when he converted.

I hope you guys figure out whats holding Iras car back. Although it sounds like he is upgrading his inlet too so it will tough to gauge if any improvements are from the inlet or maybe lack of compression.

90blkbrd
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
It's really your preferences, your driving style, and possibly your daily commute that should decide this not us.

If you are only going to race 1-3 times a year and for the fun of it and you want to daily drive your car I would go manual, they are much more exciting to drive and makes you feel more part of the car.



Can't we all just get along? The manuals are nice and so are the autos. I have built a number of aod's and none were junk. The aod is not junk as someone eluded to earlier.

They were refering to OEM AOD's.




The auto guys slamming the manual transmissions FORGET how much money they have wrapped up in a rebuild, valve body, and custom torque converter ~$2000-2500 and don't realize how little a manual transmission guy has spent in a ripper shifter, DF clutch and maybe a rebuild for new blocker rings ~$1000. Then let's talk about rear end gears. Most auto guys have to spend ~$500 and switch to 3.73's and manual transmission guys may or may not switch gears. The more power the manual car makes the better stock gearing becomes IMHO.

For anyone not liking my prices I'm assuming paying someone knowledgeable to rebuild the transmission and rear end and bartering and/or used parts doesn't make a fair comparison in my book.

Comparing Chris Vining's car to Ira's is nonsense. Chris's car has so many changes to it that he might not be able to remember all of them OR willing to tell us all of them. Ira's on the other hand could have his list done in minutes.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________

Just for fun:

If you took 2 100k cars one manual and one AOD that are bone stock. Assume 2 identically prepared motors that made 450 CHP. Then gave the auto car and an engine to a seasoned SC racer that prefers autos and gave the manual car to a seasoned SC racer that prefers sticks. Both cars would be given identical exhausts, a upgraded fuel pump and the same slicks.

Then have these 2 cars and drivers race each other...weekly in a points race (5-10 1/4 passes a weekend) and lets allow a max of $500 for repairs and upgrades.

I'm thinking Chris Vining VS Mike Puckett as I see them as good examples of seasoned SC drivers.

Which car would win more over the other?
How close would the MPH and ET's be?
Which car could survive the season to win the points race?

To be honest I believe the AOD won't survive 3-4 weeks of racing and the manual transmission might burn up the clutch. Don't forget you only have a $500 budget...

TbirdSCFan
05-09-2012, 11:35 AM
Just for fun:

If you took 2 100k cars one manual and one AOD that are bone stock. Assume 2 identically prepared motors that made 450 CHP.

Which car would win more over the other?

I'll throw in a prediction here... based on actual experience. I went bone stock 2 bone stock head to head.. our paint matched and interior colors even matched :D I ran the AOD, Mark ran the 5 spd. Light went off; both of use left the line about the same time.... he kicked my butt by almost 3/4 sec. So there you have it. (Note: mark also was a darn good shifter whereas I just mashed the throttle to the floor and went along for the ride.) Lets face it.. you don't have anything to do in an auto. You can feather it off the line I suppose, but once you've left.. a monkey like myself could drive it and munch a banana the rest of the way. They're kinda boring.. For that matter, any shift assist to me makes for a yawn.
Its that old car vs. driver debate. 5 speeds are driver contests... AODs are tech contests. Give me a 2 minute time with soap box cars and pedals and I'd rather watch that vs a 3 second "what was that" blast of nitro methane. But thats me. :)

kenewagner
05-09-2012, 11:39 AM
The auto guys slamming the manual transmissions FORGET how much money they have wrapped up in a rebuild, valve body, and custom torque converter ~$2000-2500 and don't realize how little a manual transmission guy has spent in a ripper shifter, DF clutch and maybe a rebuild for new blocker rings ~$1000. Then let's talk about rear end gears. Most auto guys have to spend ~$500 and switch to 3.73's and manual transmission guys may or may not switch gears. The more power the manual car makes the better stock gearing becomes IMHO.

For anyone not liking my prices I'm assuming paying someone knowledgeable to rebuild the transmission and rear end and bartering and/or used parts doesn't make a fair comparison in my book.



__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________






Its funny when people say debates like this make the manual guys feel bad about their choice of transmissions. Mike is a perfect example as to that isnt so. Manual transmission guys will defend their choice right up to a duel;):D:D I can tell you that Mike used up a lot of his monthly minutes yesterday telling me how it is:D:D:D

You think you can row that Z06 to a win over my SC than bring it son;):D:D

Ken

90blkbrd
05-09-2012, 12:35 PM
You think you can row that Z06 to a win over my SC than bring it son;):D:D

Ken

I don't know how this comment is part of the debate but I'll bite. We both drive our cars from my house to the race track, you can pick Earlville or Cedar Rapids, then with without touching the cars we run them down the 1/4. I remember the last time you tried to run the 1/4 with street tires and normal tire pressures. :eek: That 16 second pass is permanently ingrained in my mind. :p

Micahdogg
05-09-2012, 02:29 PM
And then you can wreck both of them in a head on collision! And we can rate the aftermath! And then we'll put a stack of 15 inch subwoofers and see how many each car can fit! Then we can put a trailer hitch on each one and go to u-haul.......

Nothing anyone can say will make someone feel like their tranmission is not right for them. If we were that easily persuaded, none of us would have picked a thunderbird SC as a toy.

kenewagner
05-09-2012, 03:45 PM
And then you can wreck both of them in a head on collision! And we can rate the aftermath! And then we'll put a stack of 15 inch subwoofers and see how many each car can fit! Then we can put a trailer hitch on each one and go to u-haul.......




Perfectly phrased;):D:D:D:D


Ken

bowez
05-09-2012, 06:23 PM
I didn't forget how much I spent on my AOD, I had someone do it and cost $1800, could do it myself and spend ~$1000. Like the motor it boils down to using the right parts.

I'm not saying the AOD is better but its not as expensive as some might think.

I would like a manual but its not in the cards

BLOWN38
05-09-2012, 07:02 PM
First time I read this thread. Figured I was missing something as its five pages long. Good read thanks guys.:)

Just a Saturday morning cruise in my 4R70

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Roadhawg
05-09-2012, 07:04 PM
First time I read this thread. Figured I was missing something as its five pages long. Good read thanks guys.:)

You have not missed much.............really:rolleyes:

XR7 Dave
05-09-2012, 09:00 PM
First time I read this thread. Figured I was missing something as its five pages long. Good read thanks guys.:)

Just a Saturday morning cruise in my 4R70


Sorry no video, I'm not cool like that, but I did get out to the track today. Yes, the car has 3 pedals. I'm definitely rusty, the car had a limp, the track wasn't prepped (Wed. night street night) but I didn't have enough tire anyway, and on top of that my laptop died before I had a chance to try a race fuel tune.

But all the excuses aside, this rusty old dude managed to eek out an 11.94 @ 113.0 with a 1.67 60ft and a 7.67/90.3mph 1/8th. That's about as good as any of you auto magic guys when you gauge ET vs. MPH. :p Even with missing the 3-4 shift no less than 3 times (don't ask), my ET's for all 7 passes didn't vary more than .25 sec. The car was running 12.0/12.1's like it was it's job.

Thing is I've got nowhere to go from here but up so it's on now!

Kevin Leitem
05-09-2012, 09:15 PM
Sorry no video, I'm not cool like that, but I did get out to the track today. Yes, the car has 3 pedals. I'm definitely rusty, the car had a limp, the track wasn't prepped (Wed. night street night) but I didn't have enough tire anyway, and on top of that my laptop died before I had a chance to try a race fuel tune.

But all the excuses aside, this rusty old dude managed to eek out an 11.94 @ 113.0 with a 1.67 60ft and a 7.67/90.3mph 1/8th. That's about as good as any of you auto magic guys when you gauge ET vs. MPH. :p Even with missing the 3-4 shift no less than 3 times (don't ask), my ET's for all 7 passes didn't vary more than .25 sec. The car was running 12.0/12.1's like it was it's job.

Thing is I've got nowhere to go from here but up so it's on now!

Sounds like that car had a turbo, you know with all them excuses! But Congrats on getting it in the 11's. Was this one of your cars or testing a customers car?

XR7 Dave
05-09-2012, 09:32 PM
Sounds like that car had a turbo, you know with all them excuses! But Congrats on getting it in the 11's. Was this one of your cars or testing a customers car?

Oh come on now, excuses are one thing, but if you don't have 120+ mph it can't be a turbo. Speaking of which I did get my butt handed to me by a turbo or two. Turns out there were 4 GN's at the track tonight, 2 running very low 11's, one running mid 13's, and one running mid 11's. The worst thing about GN's is that it's hard to tell which ones are fast and which ones aren't. Of course I lined up with both of the fastest ones. :rolleyes:

The interesting thing is on one run against the 11.22 @ 123mph one I beat him to the 330 - and then he just walked away. :(

This is Ira's car. There are quite a few things that need attention on this car, this was just a baseline to see where we are starting from. Judging from the 113mph trap speeds vs. Ira has run 119 or so before, you can see the motor is way down on power. We'll finger it out.

BLOWN38
05-09-2012, 10:09 PM
This is Ira's car. There are quite a few things that need attention on this car, this was just a baseline to see where we are starting from. Judging from the 113mph trap speeds vs. Ira has run 119 or so before, you can see the motor is way down on power. We'll finger it out.

Well at least its back in the 11's.

But back to the topic at hand. I have one of both and maybe one day we'll see if the 5 speed can do anything. I want to take it to the track and get a base line and lean it out up top to see what a stocker pics up, but think I should do head gaskets first as there is oil running down the block from them.:(

Kurt K
05-10-2012, 12:16 AM
- In 2003 I raced Kurt K at the 2003 SC Shootout, him with his CMSII engine and S-Port blower, me with my home built, stock bottom end motor and S-Port blower. I ran 12.66 to his 12.68, both at about 106mph as I recall. We raced again in 2004, this time the win going to Kurt, with just about exactly the same ET's. Both times as I recall I got Kurt off the line, then he pulled on me pretty good in 2nd, and I gained it back on the top end (almost). Point is, you can race door to door, auto and 5spd, with similar power levels and/or similar mods.

Since you mentioned it, I thought I post the video again. But anyway, according to the timeslip from the race in 2004, you had me at the 60' and the 330', but I managed to catch up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p63qxxIGSO8&feature=g-upl


Ira was also making about 470+ rwhp and ran his best of 11.5 or 11.6 to my just a little over 400 rwhp. Kurt is running a little less than 400 (could be wrong there) and running 11.5. Chris is well into the 10s with the same hp as Ira old engine at the rear wheels. You are really good with the manuals, which im sure everyone would agree with. If Ira was still running 470+ hp (which I know hes not) and you were driving his manual car, would you be able to pick up .7 of a second to run neck and neck with chris in his auto? I know, I know this is internet racing but it has been kindof slow around here you know:D Installing a much better manual setup would be cool and I would love to see it done, no argument there;)

Ken
Ken, like Dave mentioned, dyno numbers don't mean much. Despite how "easy" it is to make 400 rwhp, my car has never made more the 367 rwhp on a Mustang dyno. Also, the 11.52 that I ran was at almost ideal track conditions and never duplicated. I will say that I think my car has run faster than any other car in the club with the same dyno numbers :)

For the record, of the 3 SCs and 2 XR7s that I own, only one of them is an automatic. The reason for the auto is that when I bought it, it was my only car and I had to sit in stop-n-go rush hour traffic every day. I didn't want to drive a 5 speed in that traffic.

Ira R.
05-10-2012, 07:54 AM
Like Chris I hadn't read this thread expecting the same ol' same old. But since I seem to be the object of everyone's affection I guess now it's my turn to stick my two cents in.

First off, David, yes I blew the shift into second gear. I knew I had to find about .02 somewhere. I was confident I had a good shot at getting off the line first and had made up my mind that I needed to get into the power curve before you. But instead of trusting the car and letting it come to me I rushed the shift into second..... and blew it. I see you ran 11.85 so my guess was correct. The execution however was not.

Ricardo, I don't see the manual shifting issue that you talked about. The car runs like a watch, always has. If today is going to be a 12.1 day or a 12.4 day (or whatever the number is on that day) it's going to run within a tenth or two of that all day long. Always has. As I recall Micah also seems to be able to run pretty consistently as well.

Kurt makes some very good points and I hate to make it sound like I am turning on him but I have to ask, how many transmissions have you gone through?

Now Ken. Ahhh Ken, my friend, you made some interesting statements. You said the automatic's are faster and the manual's are slower. Now as a general statement given the number of cars running 12's or better that may be so but considering the size of the sample I don't know that it's a fair comparison. And in general there aren't that many cars running much faster either. And I'm not separating out the average street driven SC by the way or something that only goes to the track.

You also said that there aren't any 5 speeds pushing 10's. True. Of course there aren't any automatics either except for Chris and Nickleman if memory serves; neither car being anything close to a street car anymore.

In fact I bet if you did the arithmetic you would find there aren't a lot of cars running mid to high 11's either. The fact that mine may be the only 5 speed on that list (is is even?) says more about my car and the driver perhaps then about any other car with a 5 speed or an automatic for that matter.

Speaking of which, except for the engine, the one with the working AC and condenser and all, the one that never overheats in traffic, the car is stock. Stock transmission, stock suspension, stock interior, just like it sat on the showroom floor. At Old Bridge when it ran that 11.6 it weighed in at 4003 with me in it and I can assure you that neither the car nor I have lost any weight since then ;)

I also drive my car to the track and home again afterwards and the only expense I've ever had was to replace the clutch. Anyone else running as fast as we are doing that?

I will end this with a shot in the dark because my engine is hurting right now and I have no assurance what it will look like come October, but I'm bringing a box of Chips Ahoy with your name on it. You just have to earn it ;) :D

Ira

Ira R.
05-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Just finished the first pot of the day and now that's I'm a little more awake there are two more points I need to make.

Most don't have cup holders for the drinks anyhow. :p;)

My car has a cup holder. She's short, blond and doesn't require any conversation because she knows that shifting is part of the fun so why break the mood. She also handles all of the cell phone duties :p

This topic has gone off on a tangent a long time ago anyway so let's drag it back and compare possible transmission results. In regards to the comment about the comparison between "fast automatics and slow 5 speeds". DD just ran 12.0's all night long with my car. I ran a tenth or two slower last year. We did that with an engine that doesn't pull after 5000 rpms. Still think the transmission is the reason for the difference? How about a couple of you guys with automatics reset the tune to shift at 5100 instead of 6000+ and see what your numbers are? Just sayin'....

Ira

kenewagner
05-10-2012, 09:18 AM
Now Ken. Ahhh Ken, my friend, you made some interesting statements. You said the automatic's are faster and the manual's are slower. Now as a general statement given the number of cars running 12's or better that may be so but considering the size of the sample I don't know that it's a fair comparison. And in general there aren't that many cars running much faster either. And I'm not separating out the average street driven SC by the way or something that only goes to the track.

You also said that there aren't any 5 speeds pushing 10's. True. Of course there aren't any automatics either except for Chris and Nickleman if memory serves; neither car being anything close to a street car anymore.

In fact I bet if you did the arithmetic you would find there aren't a lot of cars running mid to high 11's either. The fact that mine may be the only 5 speed on that list (is is even?) says more about my car and the driver perhaps then about any other car with a 5 speed or an automatic for that matter.

Speaking of which, except for the engine, the one with the working AC and condenser and all, the one that never overheats in traffic, the car is stock. Stock transmission, stock suspension, stock interior, just like it sat on the showroom floor. At Old Bridge when it ran that 11.6 it weighed in at 4003 with me in it and I can assure you that neither the car nor I have lost any weight since then ;)

I also drive my car to the track and home again afterwards and the only expense I've ever had was to replace the clutch. Anyone else running as fast as we are doing that?

I will end this with a shot in the dark because my engine is hurting right now and I have no assurance what it will look like come October, but I'm bringing a box of Chips Ahoy with your name on it. You just have to earn it ;) :D

Ira

Ahhh Ira, one of my bestest manual buddies.:D I like how you gave me so much more response than that old Kurt, Chris or Ricardo;):D I need to find a T shirt with a big bulls eye on it now I guess.:p Like I said earlier, manual guys will defend their choice just like turbo guys debate the blower guys. It what we all do. Im an old guy and just dont like rowing through the gears all the time. Looking forward to hearing you get your car back up to previous power levels. Yours is still one of my favorite cars in the club;) and if the miracle guy gets the bugs worked out of it than us two old guys can line up at the shootout:D

Ken

PS I ran my 11.69 with the tranny shifting its self not manually shifting at 6000+. It shifts its self at about 5100 to 5200 RPM.

ricardoa1
05-10-2012, 09:40 AM
I dont think I said your transmission had problems. And I was trying to give you credit more then Dave was giving you. As you can see rusty Dave only drove the car .2 seconds faster then you. Sure he broke 11s but maybe conditions favor it? Again variables.

I just want to point out that I am curious to know what is wrong with your car from when you had record breaking power assuming the extra juice was not from tuning more then anything. And BTW I too run low 12s but I have always been focusing on running nitrous with my car and waste time and effort getting it to work. And more excuses like having one of the first inlets Dave made. An intercooler that is probably clogged with teflon from the M90 that peeled it although Dave claims he cleaned it the best he could. And most importantly tuning and fuel pressure issues. And while waiting for my upgrades, I focused my efforts to another SC, maybe cause I felt like I needed to give the old blue a break before I drove it of a cliff looking for that extra 40HP and that .5

I also drive to the track and return home in it :rolleyes: And aside from a fiberglass hood and a light Kmember. The car has a sunroof and all of the comforts of a stock one including leather.

I focused energy on the Anniversary and it seems to pay off with a 12 second time slip all on a roots and not a twin screw. :cool: And I am even spending more on the stupid thing to make it run deep 12s all day long.

Still drag racing with a M5R2 and a heavy bird takes practice. More so then an Automatic, and you will likely need some kind of rebuild, blockers after abusing it at the track. Mike Pucket has spares for the season he does not go trouble free indefinetely.

Whatever happened to Ludolfs car I have been waiting for the T-56 numbers. :confused: Row that down the track Dave, Id like to hear the results and full page review of how it stacks up to a M5R2.

Happy shifting everyone. :D Soon it will be a thing of the past, Ferrari and Lamborghini seem to think so.

ricardoa1
05-10-2012, 09:52 AM
Ken,

What more can I say ? :D

Other then we both have cars that dont Dyno very well :rolleyes:

Kurt K
05-10-2012, 09:56 AM
Kurt makes some very good points and I hate to make it sound like I am turning on him but I have to ask, how many transmissions have you gone through?Yes, I have replace more transmissions than most, but until this last one, none of them were built to handle the power. Some of them were the result of me trying a cheaper alternative and others were just sent wrong (wrong tailshaft installed on Art Carr transmission that wasn't noticed until I tried installing the driveshaft)


Speaking of which, except for the engine, the one with the working AC and condenser and all, the one that never overheats in traffic, the car is stock. Stock transmission, stock suspension, stock interior, just like it sat on the showroom floor. At Old Bridge when it ran that 11.6 it weighed in at 4003 with me in it and I can assure you that neither the car nor I have lost any weight since then ;)

I also drive my car to the track and home again afterwards and the only expense I've ever had was to replace the clutch. Anyone else running as fast as we are doing that?

Ira
Although I no longer drive to and from the track with my car, I still do have working AC and my car never overheats in traffic, although the transmission can get a little warm (something you don't have to worry about). I think I could drive the car to the track and then back home, but it is not an option while traveling with my wife and 3 kids. The year Kevin brought his scales to the Shootout, my car weighed 4080 with me in it. It might be a bit lighter now, but definitely not as light as most of the faster cars.

BLOWN38
05-10-2012, 10:01 AM
Like Chris I hadn't read this thread expecting the same ol' same old. But since I seem to be the object of everyone's affection I guess now it's my turn to stick my two cents in.

First off, David, yes I blew the shift into second gear. I knew I had to find about .02 somewhere. I was confident I had a good shot at getting off the line first and had made up my mind that I needed to get into the power curve before you. But instead of trusting the car and letting it come to me I rushed the shift into second..... and blew it. I see you ran 11.85 so my guess was correct. The execution however was not.

Ricardo, I don't see the manual shifting issue that you talked about. The car runs like a watch, always has. If today is going to be a 12.1 day or a 12.4 day (or whatever the number is on that day) it's going to run within a tenth or two of that all day long. Always has. As I recall Micah also seems to be able to run pretty consistently as well.

Kurt makes some very good points and I hate to make it sound like I am turning on him but I have to ask, how many transmissions have you gone through?

Now Ken. Ahhh Ken, my friend, you made some interesting statements. You said the automatic's are faster and the manual's are slower. Now as a general statement given the number of cars running 12's or better that may be so but considering the size of the sample I don't know that it's a fair comparison. And in general there aren't that many cars running much faster either. And I'm not separating out the average street driven SC by the way or something that only goes to the track.

You also said that there aren't any 5 speeds pushing 10's. True. Of course there aren't any automatics either except for Chris and Nickleman if memory serves; neither car being anything close to a street car anymore.

In fact I bet if you did the arithmetic you would find there aren't a lot of cars running mid to high 11's either. The fact that mine may be the only 5 speed on that list (is is even?) says more about my car and the driver perhaps then about any other car with a 5 speed or an automatic for that matter.

Speaking of which, except for the engine, the one with the working AC and condenser and all, the one that never overheats in traffic, the car is stock. Stock transmission, stock suspension, stock interior, just like it sat on the showroom floor. At Old Bridge when it ran that 11.6 it weighed in at 4003 with me in it and I can assure you that neither the car nor I have lost any weight since then ;)

I also drive my car to the track and home again afterwards and the only expense I've ever had was to replace the clutch. Anyone else running as fast as we are doing that?

I will end this with a shot in the dark because my engine is hurting right now and I have no assurance what it will look like come October, but I'm bringing a box of Chips Ahoy with your name on it. You just have to earn it ;) :D

Ira
Hey don't forget about Niebert. He ran a 10.

Hey! Why is mine not even close to a street car? Its got 4 seats and wipers.:) One of these days I'll leave the street radials on it and see what it does. Last time I did that it went 12.5 and that was a LLLOOOONNNNGGG time ago. It weighed 3830 with me in it this past weekend.

SCrazy
05-10-2012, 10:59 AM
Like Chris I hadn't read this thread expecting the same ol' same old. But since I seem to be the object of everyone's affection I guess now it's my turn to stick my two cents in.

First off, David, yes I blew the shift into second gear. I knew I had to find about .02 somewhere. I was confident I had a good shot at getting off the line first and had made up my mind that I needed to get into the power curve before you. But instead of trusting the car and letting it come to me I rushed the shift into second..... and blew it. I see you ran 11.85 so my guess was correct. The execution however was not.

Ricardo, I don't see the manual shifting issue that you talked about. The car runs like a watch, always has. If today is going to be a 12.1 day or a 12.4 day (or whatever the number is on that day) it's going to run within a tenth or two of that all day long. Always has. As I recall Micah also seems to be able to run pretty consistently as well.

Kurt makes some very good points and I hate to make it sound like I am turning on him but I have to ask, how many transmissions have you gone through?

Now Ken. Ahhh Ken, my friend, you made some interesting statements. You said the automatic's are faster and the manual's are slower. Now as a general statement given the number of cars running 12's or better that may be so but considering the size of the sample I don't know that it's a fair comparison. And in general there aren't that many cars running much faster either. And I'm not separating out the average street driven SC by the way or something that only goes to the track.

You also said that there aren't any 5 speeds pushing 10's. True. Of course there aren't any automatics either except for Chris and Nickleman if memory serves; neither car being anything close to a street car anymore.

In fact I bet if you did the arithmetic you would find there aren't a lot of cars running mid to high 11's either. The fact that mine may be the only 5 speed on that list (is is even?) says more about my car and the driver perhaps then about any other car with a 5 speed or an automatic for that matter.

Speaking of which, except for the engine, the one with the working AC and condenser and all, the one that never overheats in traffic, the car is stock. Stock transmission, stock suspension, stock interior, just like it sat on the showroom floor. At Old Bridge when it ran that 11.6 it weighed in at 4003 with me in it and I can assure you that neither the car nor I have lost any weight since then ;)

I also drive my car to the track and home again afterwards and the only expense I've ever had was to replace the clutch. Anyone else running as fast as we are doing that?

I will end this with a shot in the dark because my engine is hurting right now and I have no assurance what it will look like come October, but I'm bringing a box of Chips Ahoy with your name on it. You just have to earn it ;) :D

Ira

Blaa, Blaa, Blaa........

neverfastenough
05-10-2012, 11:10 AM
Ira the 11 stick cars are as follows as I know it. You, Ryan Ruvolo, cmac, me and a few others I think.

Ira R.
05-10-2012, 11:50 AM
Jeeez guys, I went from an example of what was wrong with driving a stick to the bad guy knocking everyone else's theories about just that? How did that happen?

Ricardo, I wasn't arguing against anything you said or your car does. I just pointed out that I didn't completely agree that you couldn't get similar results from one race to the next with a manual. I know very well all of the work you've done to your cars and I was in no way making a comparison between any of them. We had/have different goals. Had I wanted to I could easily point out that I have a second SC as well, one that has eaten up more than a few resources to look and run the way it does. But that was never the point. Don't make this personal.

Kurt, I didn't say all of the cars and I didn't disagree with anything you said. I too have had to make allowance for family and such and I know it isn't easy. But the discussion began when someone asking for a comparison of an automatic versus a manual transmission. Cost was discussed. It just seems germane to the discussion to point out that one of our more successful car builders has gone through more than one rebuild.

Ken, if your car is shifting at 5100 then you are leaving a lot of power on the table. I look forward to seeing what the car can really do.

As for how many 5 speeds are running that quickly I don't keep track so I'm sorry I got the number so wrong. That's why I didn't name names. It's also why I didn't get into the discussion of whether a turbo counts or not :rolleyes:

Mr. Vining, what can I say. I remember when you were only a tenth or two quicker than me. Hardly seems fair any more trying to keep up with you though I am still planning on needing that roll bar. :eek:

As for the new voice in town well all I can say is it's tough to beat an established racing team when you're a single owner/driver operation. lol

Ira

Kurt K
05-10-2012, 12:02 PM
Ira,

I know you weren't singling me out. I also know this thread is all over the place. I look forward to seeing you and everybody else in the fall. I'll be there in my same slow (no new mods for the past couple of years) car.

kenewagner
05-10-2012, 12:04 PM
Jeeez guys, I went from an example of what was wrong with driving a stick to the bad guy knocking everyone else's theories about just that? How did that happen?

Ricardo, I wasn't arguing against anything you said or your car does. I just pointed out that I didn't completely agree that you couldn't get similar results from one race to the next with a manual. I know very well all of the work you've done to your cars and I was in no way making a comparison between any of them. We had/have different goals. Had I wanted to I could easily point out that I have a second SC as well, one that has eaten up more than a few resources to look and run the way it does. But that was never the point. Don't make this personal.

Kurt, I didn't say all of the cars and I didn't disagree with anything you said. I too have had to make allowance for family and such and I know it isn't easy. But the discussion began when someone asking for a comparison of an automatic versus a manual transmission. Cost was discussed. It just seems germane to the discussion to point out that one of our more successful car builders has gone through more than one rebuild.

Ken, if your car is shifting at 5100 then you are leaving a lot of power on the table. I look forward to seeing what the car can really do.

As for how many 5 speeds are running that quickly I don't keep track so I'm sorry I got the number so wrong. That's why I didn't name names. It's also why I didn't get into the discussion of whether a turbo counts or not :rolleyes:

Mr. Vining, what can I say. I remember when you were only a tenth or two quicker than me. Hardly seems fair any more trying to keep up with you though I am still planning on needing that roll bar. :eek:

As for the new voice in town well all I can say is it's tough to beat an established racing team when you're a single owner/driver operation. lol

Ira

Dont worry Ira, most everyone in the club has the highest respect for you. You set the bar high the year you made 470+ hp and than run a mid 11 second quarter. Actually I really think everyone here likes or respects each other and just having fun;) As for the other 11 second manual cars Corey mentioned I guess 500 to 800 rwhp to run 11s is another thread somewhere so I will bow out of that as Im in enough trouble already:D

Ken

Micahdogg
05-10-2012, 12:08 PM
You kids and your johnson measuring contest.

The hot scene is stancing your car out and standing by it in various Industrial Parks. At least that's how Rico and I do it....the Long Live the Supra Coupes!

David Neibert
05-10-2012, 12:33 PM
Ira,

I know you weren't singling me out. I also know this thread is all over the place. I look forward to seeing you and everybody else in the fall. I'll be there in my same slow (no new mods for the past couple of years) car.

Slacker ! If I had that awsome garage and lift that you've got, I'd probably do a solid roller cam swap...just for fun ;)

David

XR7 Dave
05-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Underneath all the testosterone and BS, there are a couple things that are getting glossed over here.

1) All manual transmission guys are using stock transmissions. No 400rwhp SC can run down the track more than once or twice with a stock automatic transmission and they sure wouldn't be running 11's.

2) Manual transmission guys don't even have to change rear end gears. Talk about budget racing. How much does a good converter cost?

3) Manual transmissions can be consistent. Several of us have proven that.

4) Dyno numbers aside, manual transmission guys aren't plagued with as disproportionately high trap speeds and slow ET's as one might think. The last place I generally have to worry about a similarly powered auto car is in the first 60 ft and I don't have any trouble getting a decent ET vs. mph.

5) I don't have any trouble shifting the 5spd regardless of rpm. I don't speed shift, power shift, or generally speaking at least, grind any gears. I shifted John's car at 6800rpm repeatedly last year, and I didn't have any trouble with Ira's either (other than an occasional driver malfunction going into 4th). If you are having trouble shifting then you either don't know how to shift or your transmission has internal issues.

6) Ricardo, Ira's 1.7L kit is just as old as yours. It was also only making 19psi yesterday so something is up. Weather conditions last night were about the worst imaginable, with rain drops hitting my window on the last run of the night with DA around 2000ft due to low pressure and high humidity. I won't even go into track prep conditions other than to say it was impossible to break anything last night if you tried.

But I was doing this back in 2003 at the first SC Shootout. Why some of the rest of you have been slacking for the past 10 yrs I just don't know. I know I'm getting tired of the auto guys trumping their perceived advantage while the 5spd guys just let the excuses get deeper.


Ok, so there is a little testosterone left in this old guy. :rolleyes:

Ira R.
05-10-2012, 12:57 PM
Now there's an idea for a new class at the Shoot Out this year. A special class just for the 10th Anniversary Event.

Drivers with testosterone versus drivers without. Think of the great tee shirts the ladies could come up with and sell to the class winners!! :D -rotflmao-

Men with Balls versus boys without lol I can't stand it........

Ira

SCrazy
05-10-2012, 01:07 PM
As for the new voice in town well all I can say is it's tough to beat an established racing team when you're a single owner/driver operation. lol

Ira

I'm more than willing to farm out the pit crew especially to members of Pig Roast crew....:D

David Neibert
05-10-2012, 04:34 PM
But I was doing this back in 2003 at the first SC Shootout. Why some of the rest of you have been slacking for the past 10 yrs I just don't know. I know I'm getting tired of the auto guys trumping their perceived advantage while the 5spd guys just let the excuses get deeper.


Dave,

I guess you'll have to get your SWB SC back together and show these automatic guys how it's done. It would be great to see you racing again, especially at the Shootout.

BTW, how quick do you expect John's car to be after you get all the wrinkles ironed out with the 6 speed ?

David

Miller
05-10-2012, 05:31 PM
1) All manual transmission guys are using stock transmissions. No 400rwhp SC can run down the track more than once or twice with a stock automatic transmission and they sure wouldn't be running 11's.
SAY IT AINT SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO because a trans is not on my to do/can do/will do list!

nickleman60
05-10-2012, 06:40 PM
This is a very interesting thread...................:rolleyes:

nickleman60
05-10-2012, 07:06 PM
1) No 400rwhp SC can run down the track more than once or twice with a stock automatic transmission and they sure wouldn't be running 11's.



Does only having a J-Mod (I call it Todd-mod, Roadhawg) in my 4R70W count as a stock transmission?

ricardoa1
05-10-2012, 08:06 PM
I was not taking offence, and hope you didnt either Ira. I just saw some horn tooting so I figure I give a little beep also. :)
And never did I relay that I don't have respect for your car or its drivers, I just always been perplexed by the top numbers since we have similar hardware and so do others, and your car keeps being made an example of how simple the set up is yet it was miles away then when the car ran its best. Later it settled back down to the more commonplace numbers. Even you tell us that the car has never been the same after the stock bottom set up, yet you told us and maybe convinced yourself that the car runs great in the current state. This is why I am curious about it, who doesn't want more with less?

Dave I thought Iras car was making 19-20lbs before. That was a discussion before when i wanted to OD my 1.7L for more boost. You brought up Iras OD or lack there of in relative terms.

Ira you changing cams and lifters?

I look forward what this year will bring assuming we all get our cars running again.

Ira R.
05-11-2012, 01:23 PM
Ira you changing cams and lifters?

Unknown at this time. I suppose the best approach would be to isolate the springs, replace them first and see what difference that makes before looking for a problem somewhere else.

I don't know. Since the plan includes replacing the intake and assorted parts we may be better of rethinking the entire set up again.

Ira

Roadhawg
05-11-2012, 01:42 PM
No 400rwhp SC can run down the track more than once or twice with a stock automatic transmission and they sure wouldn't be running 11's. :rolleyes:

This made me chuckle, even though my drive train was in a Mustang, I made mid 11 second passes with a stock 94 Supercoupe 4R70W which had a Ford Remanufactured sticker on the case, a stock Mach 1 converter and a simple Jmod. ;)

nickleman60
05-11-2012, 02:20 PM
This made me chuckle, even though my drive train was in a Mustang, I made mid 11 second passes with a stock 94 Supercoupe 4R70W which had a Ford Remanufactured sticker on the case, a stock Mach 1 converter and a simple Jmod. ;)

I'm still making low 11 sec. runs with mine..........;)

BLOWN38
05-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Yeah I think the 4r70w's are ok with just a jmod. Untill the one way clutch goes out. But if you got one with the mechanical diode one way you're good.

Roadhawg
05-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Yeah I think the 4r70w's are ok with just a jmod. Untill the one way clutch goes out. But if you got one with the mechanical diode one way you're good.

My Ford reman 4R70W had a mechanical diode, I guess they learned thier lesson.

nickleman60
05-11-2012, 02:40 PM
My Ford reman 4R70W had a mechanical diode, I guess they learned thier lesson.

I guess I should mention that it has a newer, 2002/3? I can't remember, valve body upgrade. Todd does mine have the diode?

BLOWN38
05-11-2012, 03:02 PM
I guess I should mention that it has a newer, 2002/3? I can't remember, valve body upgrade. Todd does mine have the diode?

You would have to pull the trans apart to install the mech diode clutch. None of the 94-95 trans' came with them. You can tell though if you disconnect the driveshaft from the rear end and then spin the driveshaft. If you hear a light clicking it has the mech diode.

Roadhawg
05-11-2012, 07:35 PM
I guess I should mention that it has a newer, 2002/3? I can't remember, valve body upgrade. Todd does mine have the diode?

I think John added a mech Diode..........

Roadhawg
05-11-2012, 07:36 PM
You would have to pull the trans apart to install the mech diode clutch. None of the 94-95 trans' came with them. You can tell though if you disconnect the driveshaft from the rear end and then spin the driveshaft. If you hear a light clicking it has the mech diode.

You can also throw it up on jackstands and turn the rear wheels also. ;)

BLOWN38
05-12-2012, 09:55 PM
You can also throw it up on jackstands and turn the rear wheels also. ;)

Yeah i guess you're right.