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Jacob_Royer
12-04-2012, 04:51 PM
Errrr! I got everything back together today and my starter wont engage! All i get is a click from the selninoid under the hood. Dropped the starter and took it to be tested. Tests fine! I have voltage to the starter under the car(verified by test light) How can i test the sylinoid under the hood? With it in the crank position the lower large terminal is at 12 volts and the upper terminal is 8volts is this normal? I really done understand why the car has a sylenoid on the fender AND the starter?? help!!

davec73
12-04-2012, 05:33 PM
Errrr! I got everything back together today and my starter wont engage! All i get is a click from the selninoid under the hood. Dropped the starter and took it to be tested. Tests fine! I have voltage to the starter under the car(verified by test light) How can i test the sylinoid under the hood? With it in the crank position the lower large terminal is at 12 volts and the upper terminal is 8volts is this normal? I really done understand why the car has a sylenoid on the fender AND the starter?? help!!

Mine did that when I put my engine in the last time and the small wire that goes on the male to female connection was disconected

Jacob_Royer
12-04-2012, 05:56 PM
Mine did that when I put my engine in the last time and the small wire that goes on the male to female connection was disconected

The one on the starter itself? If so already checked that.

TbirdSCFan
12-04-2012, 07:17 PM
8 v sounds too low. Check over and clean all your cables connecting to the starter relay on the fenderwall. You can jumper from the + batt post to the small stud under the red wire cap to test the starter w/o the key brake circuit.

pro street rich
12-04-2012, 08:48 PM
I had a ad ground that gave me some trouble. That volts across the fender does not sound right either. Give it the once over and let us know.....Rich

slick59
12-04-2012, 10:46 PM
Double check the battery ground and the grounding straps to the engine block?

Jacob_Royer
12-05-2012, 03:31 AM
Double check the battery ground and the grounding straps to the engine block?

I did check continuity between the engine block and the negative battery terminal and had no resistance.

Jacob_Royer
12-05-2012, 08:12 AM
How exactly does the two solenoid system work?

Mike8675309
12-05-2012, 11:18 AM
With it in the crank position the lower large terminal is at 12 volts and the upper terminal is 8volts is this normal? I really done understand why the car has a sylenoid on the fender AND the starter?? help!!

The solenoid on the fender has battery voltage (nominal 12v) at the lower large lug that is around 7 o'clock. It should have 12v even with key off.

The large lug that is at 1 o'clock is the one that is connected to the Starter and should see 12v in start position and nothing with Key On Engine off or running.

The little wire on the top is from the ignition switch and should have 12v with ignition switch in the start position.

Ground for the solenoid is achieved through it's mount to the fender.

When testing the fender solenoid, remove the starter cable when testing if the first time you check you see less than battery voltage there to make sure a load on the cable isn't messing with your voltage reading.

You can see the solenoid in this picture and note where the battery cable is, and see how it is wired up.
http://media.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_2009_work/4a946fffc5860/tn_full_remoteBatteryOverview1jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/446555)

The idea behind the two solenoid system is that the big high amp cable going to the starter is not energized all the time. Only when you actually want to start. This is a safety system. When you turn the key, two solenoids need to fire. One that energizes the cable going from the fender solenoid to the starter solenoid, and the other energizes the power from the cable into the starter. Both solenoids energize based off the ignition switch, but their paths are different. At least one (the one to the starter) goes through the neutral safety switch and/or security system.

Jacob_Royer
12-05-2012, 11:36 AM
OK thanks that makes sense I was getting 12 volts to the small wire with the key in start position and 12v to the lower lug 8. To to. The top. I had the starter tested and it tested fine. I will try to just pickup a new selenoid on my way.:

TbirdSCFan
12-05-2012, 12:21 PM
You should clean all your terminal lugs even if the resistance is 0. Resistance checks are done with low amperage. Things behave different under high current.

Jacob_Royer
12-05-2012, 07:56 PM
Ok I'm still puzzled!!!
First i tried a new solenoid (cheap) didn't work!
Then I checked voltages again...

Lower terminal on solenoid 12+ volts key off or key on
Upper terminal 0 volts key off 8/9volts in start position
Small lug 12 volts in start position

Now this is where stuff gets weird....

Big wire on starter key off 12+ volts
Big wire starter start position 8/9 volts
Small wire 12 volts start position 0 any other condition

Since I have 12v + in key off position at the starter I took a screw driver from the small terminal to the big on the starter and it tried to do something and stopped! Nothing again afterwords yet still show 12v+ in key off position...??

So thinking something could be wrong with the starter itself I drop it and ground it to a battery with jumper cables and hook the hot to the big lug and it acts as it should when jumping the small terminal with a screwdriver so the starter is good.. What the heck is going on?? I am not getting continuity between ground and the big wire going to the starter so I don't believe that it's shorted... Help!!!????

Jacob_Royer
12-05-2012, 07:59 PM
One more thing I have a ground on the driver and passenger side of the engine hooked up . Didn't however try to clean them yet as it got dark on me

Mike8675309
12-05-2012, 09:58 PM
Any reason to think the motor was assembled too tight? Wrong main bearing on the #4 position? You should be able to turn the motor over with a socket and bar on the crank bolt.

If the starter engages, and is unable to move the engine, it will start to heat and draw more and more current until something pops.

slick59
12-05-2012, 10:03 PM
Any reason to think the motor was assembled too tight? Wrong main bearing on the #4 position? You should be able to turn the motor over with a socket and bar on the crank bolt.

If the starter engages, and is unable to move the engine, it will start to heat and draw more and more current until something pops.

x2----can you turn the motor over with a socket and ratchet or breaker bar?? Could be engine problem or tranny got bound up when mating to engine

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 04:47 AM
Motor turns easily with 1/2" ratchet I could turn by hand by pulleys with no plugs in. Starter isn't even trying to engage!

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 08:41 AM
I'm beginning to suspect the starter to solenoid wire.. anyone know the length on it? I'll try to get some from work....

mywhite89
12-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Maybe you have a enough power to turn on your test light or show voltage on your meter but not enough current to actually turn the solenoid on. Try jumping a wire from the battery to the starter exciter and see what happens.

chris

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Tried that for nothing! Yet I show 12volts+ at the big wire on the starter!
I'm thinking it has something to do with the supply wire going to the starter.

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 10:18 AM
Why do i have 12v at the starter with the key off? Isn't it only supposed to have power with they key in start position!

mywhite89
12-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Why do i have 12v at the starter with the key off? Isn't it only supposed to have power with they key in start position!

Wish I could help you but I will have to look at the schematics in my 89 book when I get home if you'll still need some help. On my 95 You have 12 volts to the starter at all times and when you start the car, you get 12volts reference from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid which is on the starter and that completes the circuit to jump the solenoid. Im not sure how the older cars are wired with a seperate solenoid on the fender since I have never had a problem with mine.

Surprises me that the older ones also have another solenoid on the starter.

Is your car a 5-speed?

chris

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Its an auto. Not sure why I have less voltage in the start position like I said it drops to 8/9volts!

TbirdSCFan
12-06-2012, 12:00 PM
Why do i have 12v at the starter with the key off? Isn't it only supposed to have power with they key in start position! No. Thats correct. Its the 2 solenoid setup. The relay on the fender wall switches power to the smaller wire which switches on the solenoid on the starter itself. Thats one reason why there's a red plastic cover over the starter's terminal lugs.

TbirdSCFan
12-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Its an auto. Not sure why I have less voltage in the start position like I said it drops to 8/9volts! Kind of high, but when you load up the starter, the voltge will drop some. If you have that and no starter spin.... you have a bad starter motor. My guess... something is blocking it from spinning. You should test it off the car... or just swap in another one.

mkbrower
12-06-2012, 12:56 PM
The starting system is pretty simple. The red cable from your battery should go to the starter and have 12v on it all the time. The other wire comes from the fender solenoid and should only have power when the key is in start. If you have power on both wires with the key in start, you have a bad starter solenoid or a bad ground on your starter housing. If you do not have power on the small wire, check for voltage a fender start relay (red with blue stripe) if you have 12v there in start, you have a bad relay or bad ground on relay housing. If you have no power there, you have a open neutral safety switch, missing clutch jumper wire or bad ignition switch. We'll cross that bridge if we get there. Note: the battery cable is tied together at relay but does not go through the relay. Should be red and black cable of the same gauge.
Mark

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 01:37 PM
The starter works fine off the car it doesent as much as make a noise on the car! I ran a hot wire directly to the small tab on the starter and it does nothing! That's why I'm wondering about the hot to the starter.

mkbrower
12-06-2012, 01:52 PM
Do you have 12v on your battery cable? You either have it or you don't. If you have it, it's not your cable. If you have 12v on your wires with the key in start, you have a bad starter solenoid, a bad starter, or a bad ground on your motor housing. There are two lugs on your starter. Did you connect power to the lug that the battery cable goes to when testing the starter? You may have bypassed the solenoid. Did you check ground on your motor housing?

Mark

TbirdSCFan
12-06-2012, 02:05 PM
or a bad ground on your motor housing.

Mark OK. Its time to ask the obvious questions. Are both your engine ground straps connected on both ends? :rolleyes: Battery posts cleaned to a shine and tight? Starter relay terminal lugs cleaned and tight?

Battery fully charged to 13 V? (12V is not a full charge; its the resting charge). Only way to know for sure is to check electrolyte density. Cheap medicine dropper type of tool with tiny colored balls.

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 02:06 PM
Do you have 12v on your battery cable? You either have it or you don't. If you have it, it's not your cable. If you have 12v on your wires with the key in start, you have a bad starter solenoid, a bad starter, or a bad ground on your motor housing. There are two lugs on your starter. Did you connect power to the lug that the battery cable goes to when testing the starter? You may have bypassed the solenoid. Did you check ground on your motor housing?

Mark

I'm connected to the. Outer lug which is how it is supposed to work since
I did that when testing it on the bench. I don't as much as have a click comming
Out of the starter with it on the car! I have zero ohms resistance between the starter
And the body of the car so I think the ground is OK. I can jump the solenoid with a screw driver under the car and dont even get a click! Theoreticly if I have 12 volts at the starter (which I do) then doing that should engage it!!

TbirdSCFan
12-06-2012, 02:14 PM
I have zero ohms resistance between the starter
And the body of the car so I think the ground is OK. Not necessarily. Think I mentioned that earlier. Good luck. ;)

mkbrower
12-06-2012, 02:38 PM
Take the negative lead of your meter, and touch it to the starter housing. Touch the positive lead to each wire as you turn the key to start. Check what your voltage is

David Neibert
12-06-2012, 03:03 PM
I'm connected to the. Outer lug which is how it is supposed to work since
I did that when testing it on the bench. I don't as much as have a click comming
Out of the starter with it on the car! I have zero ohms resistance between the starter
And the body of the car so I think the ground is OK. I can jump the solenoid with a screw driver under the car and dont even get a click! Theoreticly if I have 12 volts at the starter (which I do) then doing that should engage it!!

Disclaimer: I've never really looked closely at an SC starter or even studied the wiring diagram, but this is how they work on several other engine/starters I've dealt with.

I believe the problem is the solenoid that is mounted on the starter. If the 12 volt trigger wire that comes off the fender mounted starter relay is showing 12 volts at the connection to the starter when key is in the start position, and the terminal on the starter connecting the power cable that goes to the battery is showing 12 volts, but not providing power to the starter motor windings...it has to be the solenoid.

The starter mounted solenoid has two functions, one is to engauge the drive gear on the starter motor with the starter ring gear that is mounted on the flywheel/flex plate and the other function is to direct power from the battery cable to the starter motor. So when you jump across the two post on the starter, you are only doing one of these two functions, which is spinning the motor. The clicking sound comes from the solenoid moving and engauging the starter gear onto the ring gear.

When bench testing the starter you should be using the same terminal that the battery cable attaches to for main power, then provide 12 volts on trigger wire connection. If the starter is working correctly the gear on the starter will kick forward and start spinning at the same time. When removing the 12 volt trigger wire, the solenoid will release and retract the starter gear and shut off power to the starter motor.

If you are under the car jumping the two terminals, the starter is probably spinning but you can't tell because it isn't engauging the starter gear to the starter ring gear.

David

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 03:13 PM
That's how I tested it. In fact its kinda noisy I just don't seem to be getting full current or something under the car. I'm going to take my jumper cables and hook hot directly to the starter lug with it on the car and see if that makes any difference.

MadMikeyL
12-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Have you checked the voltage across the battery when trying to crank? It may be as simple as a weak battery.

mkbrower
12-06-2012, 03:59 PM
Voltage is only potential, to have current flow you must have a load. As I see it, you have no load. You should hear or feel something to indicate a load. Solenoid click, or motor turning. In a circuit, you must have voltage, resistance, and conductors. When you place a testlight probe to the battery cable and the ground to the motor housing you are completing the circuit back to the battery and current flow through the light (resistance) back to the battery. If you have a load on your battery while you are trying to start, voltage would drop because resistance went up. If you have no drop in voltage, while trying to start and confirmed by not sensing any load then you are not completing the circuit back to the battery. This could be caused by a bad starter solenoid, bad starter, or bad ground. Keep it simple, electron flow does not change no matter where the starter is mounted

Jacob_Royer
12-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Cleaned the grounds, Added an extra ground from the starter bolts to the body and it works!!! Fired right up!

Scott Long
12-07-2012, 12:22 AM
My truck did something similar when I put the new engine in, and since I painted the engine block, it wasn't getting a good ground until I took an angle grinder and made a good metal to metal connection.

Mike8675309
12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Cleaned the grounds, Added an extra ground from the starter bolts to the body and it works!!! Fired right up!

Check your engine block grounds then.