how many guys have Raced their's SC's/XR7's on a road course?

Hey I did an autocross a few weeks ago at the track in Gainsville, FL. And its a lot harder than it looks!! I did alright I guess considering it was my first time ever doing a road course. I had 4 runs and managed to improve my time by 8 seconds from the 1st to last run. Unfortunatly I still came last in my group as they put me up against a turbo MR2s and RX7s because I'm not N/A.

I also learned I need wider tires and a better suspension, those 225s arent gonna cut it on a road course at all. I wish I could of had a professional driver take my car out and see what they could get out of it.
If you ever get a chance to do a road course though definitly check it out, its a lot different than at the drag strip. Also puts more wear on your car too... so make sure nothing is about to break cause if its close to, auto-xing will probably break it.

Now I'm no pro but if you want some tips about a pretty much stock SC and how it handles from what I experienced on the track let me know.
 
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Road Race SCs

I have taken my 95 SC 5spd out several times at the Motorsport Ranch in Cresson, TX. See: www.motorsportranch.com
It is a 1.7 mile 11 turn track. I found the car almost as good as the SS Camaroes they used to use for classes. Yes front end is heavy but with our power you balance it in corners with the throtle. My car is completly stock and at 124k miles. The sessions are 30 min. I have to slow at least 2 times to cool engine. Of course this was on very hot days. Winter time is much better. This clunky 5spd (that I hate Ford for putting in these cars) actualy works well as you are not drag racing. I usually only get up to 95 on the strait ways. I am buying more SCs and will be doing everything possible for more cooling on one of them. I own an 89, 91, and the 95. Probably wiring both fans on the 95 to run at all time will do the trick. I did speak with Griffin about a next size thicker than what is offered now. No problem as long as good airflow. I am sure the new intercooler would be great but my goal is to keep cost down as tires will be biggest exspense for me. I live in Cresson and joined the club. It operates like a golf course but we play no golf!!!

Owner of MSRanch told me that if we wanted a T-Bird club event that he needs 20-30 cars. It will cost $95 each. Start in classroom. They will take us out in groups where we follow the leader and listen on the radio as we here instructions. Do that twice or 3 times going faster and learning more each time. Then given a session for 30-60 min to go on our own. Rules are that you pass only on the straitaways. Gentlemens racing only so no fender rubbing. Track has nothing to hit if you go off course. There is/was a company setting up a 4 wheel dyno machine. Web site is old as club house and shops are built. Also there is a skid pad. You will need a helmet as they only have a few to rent.

I found these cars very balanced. I learned with old tires then bought new, boy what a difference!!! I have bought all the bushings, lowering springs, sway bars, etc to modify one of my SCs. I may be crazy for pushing a supercharged car on a road race track but it is my goal. Also working on a regular T-Bird for the track to see how it will do. At least on a regular bird I don't feel like it is a crime to rip out all of the A/C unit and heater core and everything else not needed. It will be a mighty ugly car but one I can really beat.
 
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Road Racing

NASA (The National Auto Sport Association) has recently approved all models of the Thunderbird and Cougar for competition in the American Iron and American Iron Extreme classes. These classes are for American Pony Cars (Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Thunderbirds mostly), with an almost anything goes rule book. American Iron is for cars with a 9.5 lb to 1 hp ratio or higher, and the extreme class is unlimited. More rules can be found at www.racenasa.com . Being the region director of the Ohio/Indiana region, and a proud owner of a 1992 Thunderbird Supercoupe, I am very excited about this news! The SC is in the garage and beginning the transformation. Anyone else wanna run down some Mustangs! Let me know at mansier@racenasa.com or 330.242.5008 or post it!

See you at the track.
 
So what mods are you doing?

I just picked up a rough 91 SC 5spd for heavy track use.

I have a reg 91 bird which a v8 and 5spd are going into as we are stripping it. No AC, heater, interior, etc.

I am lowering the 95 5spd. and other things but I just don't want to beat it.

Interested to know what you will do. I will check out the rules. Thanks!!!!!
Doug
 
T-Bird on Track

Here is what we are thinking about for 2003:

Upgrade to 17x9 wheels with 13" brakes in front, 12' in back
PolyUrethane everything
Biggest Sway Bars we can find
May just cut the springs or go for coil-overs. We have cut the springs in our C3 Corvette with great results. SC springs are fairly stiff, especially when taking out all the weight!
Take out everything not needed. Door glass, motors, carpeting, all interior, all seats, spare tire etc, AC and all, sunroof, etc. etc. etc.
Go to a bigger pipe for the exhaust
Better shocks
Rollcage
All Road Racing safety equipment
Oil Cooler
Wing, Splitter, Flat Bottom
275/40/17 Road Racing Tires
and more.

We may get started soon. How far are you from Mansfield, Ohio (Mid-Ohio)?

We run a road racing team and the NASA Region, and would welcome your car for events, setup help, building, whatever!

LM
 
OK with the SC cars I will keep the 3.8. But in my regular bird I am tearing out all like you say and want to put in the roll cage. I was going to use a 302 because 91s had those. But it will have a 5spd which was not a combination for T-Bird. Is that allowed? But will your rules allow other engines like 351s, or some MOPAR big block short strokers like 383 or 400? If not then I suppose an old 69 Road Runner hull I have will have to be fixed for this as well.

On the 91 SC that is rough I may strip it out and put in rollcage.

I will have to send brake info I referred to to you next week.

Just wonder about power train combo rules? All V8 TBirds had automatics. Any allowance for 4 or 5spd?
 
Combinations

Any motor/Tranny combination is allowed. The only thing to pay attention to here is the 9.5lb. to 1hp limit in American Iron. Putting a 460 into the T-bird would be allowed, or any motor for that matter.
 
Avibank-SPS
I live in San Antonio, TX and I also have a '95 5-speed. I'm always looking for more people in Texas with Thunderbirds, but we should try to get a group together at a track sometime. You can email me at ilusnforc@aol.com
 
I have a 95 SC 5-speed that has been cranked around Shannonville, a small road course east of Toronto, a few times at lapping days, and also been abused at Watkins Glen while I was instructing there for the Driving Ambitions performance driving school. This was a few years ago, I had Eibachs with Tokicos, the Mark 8 11.6" front brakes, Dynomax cat back exhaust, and some used 255-50-16 Hoosier road-race tires that I had schlepped from one of the Grand-Am Cup Mustang teams when the rules allowed them to go with 17" rubber on their cars.

Anyway, the car worked not bad, you can definitely feel the weight, mild understeer ... very easy to handle with the wide track and long wheelbase, no surprises. With the SLA front and IRS rear suspension, it doesn't need much negative camber either, and you get good feedback from the steering, because of the large amount of positve caster the MN-12 cars have.

I now have Koni Sports in the car, and the Mustang Cobra 13" front / 11.65" rear brake conversion, and am anxious to get back to the Glen, or maybe my home track, Mosport, to try it out again ... just need to round up some crappy 17" wheels to mount track rubber on, don't want to tear up my new 18" GY Eagle F1 GS-D2 tires ... too expensive !! :)

However, IMHO, it would be tough to make a competitive track car out of one of these ... even stripped, it will be 400 - 500 lbs. heavier than a prepped 5.0 Mustang, the superior suspension design won't overcome that I don't think. I raced a 5.0 Mustang in amateur regioanl racing about 10 years ago, mostly at Mosport ... so I have it to use as a yardstick. The SC coud be a cool track car, but it will probably be mid-pack at best in American Iron unfortunately. BTW, my recommendation would be to go for a bunch of spring rate, the IRS can handle it, and still put the power down ... look at the 99-up Cobra Mustangs ... the 00 Cobra R had 750 lbs./inch REAR springs. Big stab. bars are a crutch for not enough spring rate.

cheers
Ed Nicholson
SCCoO
 

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Ed,

That's a great pic! How come I haven't seen it before?!

Are those stock MarkVIII wheels? How come I haven't seen those either?!

;)

Cheers,

Sean
 
That pic, and many other "action" photos from my racing days will be up on my personal site soon. Keith Clarke is doing most of the work on it for me, and I have Photochop on my home computer now to resize and retouch the photos that Keith was nice enough to scan for me.

The Mark 8 wheels have only been on the car at the track ... they have 255-50-16 Hoosier "Motorola Cup" spec road-race tirs on them, which start off brand new with a tread pattern sort of photocopied on them, once you do a few laps, it's pretty much gone. ;) So you won't see me driving around on the street with those any time soon. And the crappy thing is too, that those wheels will no longer bolt on the car since I did the big brake upgrade. And where did I get those wheels ?? I can read your thoughts !! :p Grabbed 'em from work a few years ago when we changed a set on a nice 96 Mark 8 under warranty, the chrome was corroding and peeling, especially around the centre cap area. Usually Ford asks for the high-buck chrome wheels back for warranty return, but they didn't ask for those ones ... since I was the only guy who owned a vehicle they would fit (at the time), I scooped them.

cheers
Ed N.
 
Could you clarify the Bunch of Spring Rate comment? I'm looking to improve my car for use in Autocross type events and the few and far between road tracks I might get to drive.

I was planing in going with the Eibach 1.5" lowering springs and the playing with ideas on improved roll bars. So I'm very curious on if you think the stock bar is sufficient but the springs would be a better place to tweak, or maybe the basic upgraded bar (rather than the way bigger bar avaialble through the tccoa) plus some spring tweaks.

I'm not looking to win events, I just want to have fun at events and be able to be consistant and not fight the car.

I want to keep my stock wheels so my front brake upgrade isn't going to be super large, but I plan on going with the 10.9" KVR rotors and PBR dual calipers up front.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
 
Well, when I advised going with "a bunch of spring rate", my comments were made on the assumption that the car being prepped was going to be pretty much a track-only car. If the car is only going to see autocross and occasional track usage, there's no point in stiffening the car up so much that it loses it's comfort for the street. Our cars were built as big, comfortable cruisers that do everything fairly well, not really excelling in any given area ... just a nice, fairly quick, all-around capable performer. If you're going to end with something that rides like crap, just to get it handling a bit better for competition, you might as well start with a Mustang. ;)

So my suggestions for a daily driver / sometimes weekend-warrior car would be a set of Suspension Techniques springs, because they are linear rather than variable rate, but the Eibachs would probably work almost as well in a slalom ... if you're a beginner, the difference would hardly be noticeable, if at all ... and the Eibachs will ride nicer on the street. A set of Koni Sport or Bilstein shocks ... the Konis may be advantageous to have because of their adjustability, you could experiment with the settings to change the front-to-rear balance of the car for an event. Front stab. bar I would leave alone, and on the rear I would go for the Addco 1-1/8" piece ... increasing your rear roll stiffness compared to the front, which should reduce understeer. Basically, the stiffest end of the car will lose grip first, so if the car is plowing on the front in steady-state cornering (understeer), either the front roll stiffness has to be reduced, or the rear increased. This is where people will get confused, they goose the throttle around a low speed corner, the back steps out, leading them to conclude "my car oversteers". WRONG ... take it through a sweeping medium to high speed corner, entering at the highest speed possible, then see what happens ... a stock SC will understeer slightly, not as bad as a stock Mustang of the same vintage though.

Your intention to stay on the stock wheels is going to handicap you somewhat ... a 7" wheel really isn't big enough for a 2-ton car in any type of handling event. You can put 245-50-16 or even 255-50-16 tires on the stock rims, but an autocross situation is where you would experience the excessive movement of the tire sidewalls, because the rim is not wide enough to stabilize them. For autocross, the stock rotor size should be OK, because you're just doing short runs, and the bigger calipers and pads will do a better job of clamping on them. However, on a racetrack, I'm sure that you will quickly experience fading and rotor warpage with that size of brakes ... again, just not adequate for pushing on a 2-ton car. If your budget allows, consider finding some 93 - up front spindles, then going with a set of the Mark 8 11.6" rotors on them. Unfortunately the PBR calipers cannot be used with the Mark 8 brakes, you're limited to the Mark calipers as well, which are bigger single piston units than the SC calipers. They also will clear stock 16" wheels no problem. I did several lapping days with that brake set-up on my car, using KVR pads. At one event at Shannonville, which has some tight corners and hard braking areas, while running on the Hoosier soft-compound road-race radials, I was getting the front rotors glowing BRIGHT ORANGE after about 10 laps of really jumping on the brakes at the end of the 2000-ft straight (approx. 110 mph down to 65 - 70) ... and no rotor warpage.

Overall, I would say that the SC can be a fun car for events like this, but as you have already figured out, don't expect many trophies. Especially in an autocross event, the car is too heavy, wide, and long to get the job done quickly ... all the things that make it stable and comfortable at highway speeds work against you while trying to make tight corners and quick transitions.

Holy crap, I'm long winded today !! :eek:

cheers
Ed N.
 
I totally appreciate your long windedness. For people that just want to have some off road fun with their car, your tips are way helpfull. I just can't get into the 1/4 mile race frame of mind with these cars.

Sounds like you had good experience with the Mark brakes. Do you feel they would be superior to the smaller diameter rotor and dual piston caliper? Of course there is ultimate, and then there is sufficient. Like you said, trying ultimate with a SC would require starting with removal of the radiator cap and driving a mustang underneath it.

I don't think I'll limit myself to stock wheels for the racing. My plan is to pickup some bigger wheels to mount some bigger tires to improve traction and loading just for events. But daily driving would be with stock wheels, so that basically limits my brake options.

Koni's are on my mind. And thanks for the heads up on the other things. It's really apprecated when people share their knowledge like that.

Thanks.
 
Wow, good to see more response in this thread. Good to see a fellow Texan, I will have to respond e-mail. Good to see some 95 cars being used, properly?

I have been traveling for over 2 months all over the East. One of my trips was to attend the Performance Racing Industry (PRI) trade show in Indianapolis last month. Unbelievable to be with 30,000+ engine and chassie builders of race cars and all the suppliers. I was like a blind dog in a meat locker. Didn't know which way to turn.

I just got in tonight. I will have to pass on some good brake info. as I found a supplier of 13" 2 piece rotor and 6 piston front brakes for these cars for way less than others I have seen. He happened to be in Houston which is close enough for me. I still have not unpacked or read everything. I want to go check out his place in Houston first.

I did pick up a 91 5spd car, but my son wants it. So looks like I will get a 90 red 5spd out of OK next week to be the main track car.

I have not been out on the track lately since I burnt a valve in the 95. Looks like my son and I will have an engine party with 3 all cars. Will probably sell the 89 we just fixed since it is an auto.

Installing while engine is down: I chose Suspensin Tech springs for the track as well with the stiffer new bushings for front and back. Got rear sway and waiting on front sway bar. I also picked up some eibachs on eBay just cause. Got a rear end out of a yard with ~3.23 ratio which should help for this track in the slow section where I am in 2nd just too long with the 2.7 rear. Of course got in the solid motor and tranny mounts. Looking at some of the frame bracing offered and wondering about making my own. Would love some of the Cobra and Mark IV Aluminum suspension and rear-end parts but that will come.

On the non-SC I a am stripping for the track. I suppose I should go with a Mustang to be lighter, but I just don't have the enthusiasm for it. A friend of mine, who is shortening a 60 square bird into a 2 seater, and I are looking at shortening this one and cutting out a LOT of the front and back end as well. I found another race chasie I am trying to duplicate for more serious play which is like a single seat Lotus 7 except lowered and weight distributed evenly. Anyway the T-Bird just fits close to what I wanted almost 30 years ago in High School so I guess I will stick with it for now. Never was much of a Pony fan, I am an old MOPAR man and this car will have a short stroke big block for awhile as well. Though pushed a bit further back. My cousin's think I am nuts.

Talked with a tranny man at PRI and we discussed clutches quite a bit as probably being most of the problem with the SC. Will get more info here unless you guys have solutions.

Will send brake info and price as soon as I go verify and maybe wait till I install.

Now I am long winded and said nothing to help. Will do better next time, I hope. I just need to get one of them back on the track for seat time.
Doug
 
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