Turbo build....or well the start anyways

Steve Meyers

Steve Meyers

Registered User
Spent the good portion of the day mocking up a turbo kit for the sc. Did some brain storming with my buddy Jeramie (92bird) ordered all the pipes we thought we'd need, and today we went to town on it. Everything is mild steel and will be ceramic coated so nothing rusts and wont have to worry about wrapping the pipes.

I've seen tons of people that make custom headers that face forward and you have to delete the power steering and what not. (i'm not quite there yet, welding wise) I know there's other parts you can buy to make it so you have power steering but it seems like too much work.
And i don't like the cluster of pipes in the engine bay, so we took a different approach at this project. Keep in mind this is day 1 of figuring stuff out. Spent the rest of the night welding up everything.....In this picture everything is just tack welded together to double check that everything will work. (ill post pics of the pipes welded together tomorrow once i have time to grind on the welds and make it look better.)

the top pipe is the passenger side of the car.

comments?

Edit: All my Magnum Powers parts (FMIC/MPx, pulleys, long tube headers and much more) now for sale. Only used for 41 miles. Help me fund a built motor and nice turbo parts :) For Sale Thread
 

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Scott Long said:
I'll share mine when I get back but it allows you to retain the power steering but I think the A/C has to go.
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Sounds good! When do you come back from Afghanistan, I was able to keep power steering, but lost A/C when i went to the MPX due to them not making the correct ac condenser anymore :confused:
Also took off the accessory bracket that the ac unit sat on, so that made tons of room to work with as well. :D
 
I am not going to use the passenger side accessory bracket so that will free up the room for mounting the turbo and running the down pipe.

I get back around early April.
 
Steve and I have a long ways to go yet, but I'm confident we can end up with a well fitting setup.

The pic of the pipes above fits extremely well, they are tucked up really nice.

Pipe size is 2-1/8" merging into a single 2.5" "up pipe" that will go to the turbo inlet. Plan is to use the new Precision 6262 CEA billet turbo, with a ported S compressor cover, and a T4 .68 A/R turbine with v-band oulet.

To go with that, we're gonna pair a nice Tial MVR 44mm wastegate to keep the boost under control.

Big question.. What MAF should we use should it be draw through or blow through? We have the following on hand, but could do whatever (slot maf, etc)

85mm C&L tuner MAF
73mm C&L with stock tube
73mm C&L with blue tube
76mm C&L with stock tube.

Steve will be using Quarterhorse/BE 2012.

Jeramie
 
92bird said:
Steve and I have a long ways to go yet, but I'm confident we can end up with a well fitting setup.

The pic of the pipes above fits extremely well, they are tucked up really nice.

Pipe size is 2-1/8" merging into a single 2.5" "up pipe" that will go to the turbo inlet. Plan is to use the new Precision 6262 CEA billet turbo, with a ported S compressor cover, and a T4 .68 A/R turbine with v-band oulet.

To go with that, we're gonna pair a nice Tial MVR 44mm wastegate to keep the boost under control.

Big question.. What MAF should we use should it be draw through or blow through? We have the following on hand, but could do whatever (slot maf, etc)

85mm C&L tuner MAF
73mm C&L with stock tube
73mm C&L with blue tube
76mm C&L with stock tube.

Steve will be using Quarterhorse/BE 2012.

Jeramie
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Jeramie,

I would set it up with a blow through MAF using a slotted MAF (like SCT BA5000) mounted to a 3" pipe after the BOV, and prior to the TB. Doing this will allow using a BOV instead of a bypass valve, which is much easier to plumb.

David
 
Jeramie,

I would set it up with a blow through MAF using a slotted MAF (like SCT BA5000) mounted to a 3" pipe after the BOV, and prior to the TB. Doing this will allow using a BOV instead of a bypass valve, which is much easier to plumb.

David
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My GTP is blow through right now as well. Seems to be the general consensus to go blow through..

Now that I think about it, the C&L 85mm Tuner MAF Steve bought originally for the MPx setup came with a flow sheet and sample tube setup for "blow through" use.. The place he bought it from heard "supercharged" and incidentally sent him a blow through MAF. ACtually I'm not sure if its a different sample tube or just a different flow sheet they send. It only saw low 3v ranges on an MPx setup at 15% od on a mild cam'd motor in "draw though" use with the MPx

I love the idea and simplicity of the slot MAF.. Just wondering if we could use what we have with good results as well? This stuff is all adding up $$ wise, LOL..

Jeramie
 
92bird said:
My GTP is blow through right now as well. Seems to be the general consensus to go blow through..

Now that I think about it, the C&L 85mm Tuner MAF Steve bought originally for the MPx setup came with a flow sheet and sample tube setup for "blow through" use.. The place he bought it from heard "supercharged" and incidentally sent him a blow through MAF. ACtually I'm not sure if its a different sample tube or just a different flow sheet they send. It only saw low 3v ranges on an MPx setup at 15% od on a mild cam'd motor in "draw though" use with the MPx

I love the idea and simplicity of the slot MAF.. Just wondering if we could use what we have with good results as well? This stuff is all adding up $$ wise, LOL..

Jeramie
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Jeramie,

My 93 SC was originally set up with a C&L 76 in a blow through and it did pretty good but was pegging the MAF at around 490 rwhp. We switched to a C&L 85 tuner MAF and had to increase the pipe size prior to and after the MAF from 3.0" to 3.5" to fit the larger MAF body. We then had plenty of range for WOT, but difficulty with part throttle, low rpm and idle resolution. Slotted MAF in a smaller pipe will work much better and I would have used one if they were available back then. I solved the problem by going to a FAST XFI speed density standalone system.

I would not use the 85mm C&L in a blow through configuration, even if it was free. In a draw through configuration I think it would be okay, but that means the the MAF and bypassed air inlet would both need to be located prior to the turbo/compressor inlet.

David
 
David Neibert said:
Jeramie,

My 93 SC was originally set up with a C&L 76 in a blow through and it did pretty good but was pegging the MAF at around 490 rwhp. We switched to a C&L 85 tuner MAF and had to increase the pipe size prior to and after the MAF from 3.0" to 3.5" to fit the larger MAF body. We then had plenty of range for WOT, but difficulty with part throttle, low rpm and idle resolution. Slotted MAF in a smaller pipe will work much better and I would have used one if they were available back then. I solved the problem by going to a FAST XFI speed density standalone system.

I would not use the 85mm C&L in a blow through configuration, even if it was free. In a draw through configuration I think it would be okay, but that means the the MAF and bypassed air inlet would both need to be located prior to the turbo/compressor inlet.

David
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Looks like ill be going with a slotted MAF then, thanks for the input David!
What cam do you have in your 93 bird? Any ideas of how much power the stock bottom end will handle? I don't want to set myself up for failure. Not looking to put down numbers like Cmac but better numbers than a maxed out MPX.
 
Looks like ill be going with a slotted MAF then, thanks for the input David!
What cam do you have in your 93 bird? Any ideas of how much power the stock bottom end will handle? I don't want to set myself up for failure. Not looking to put down numbers like Cmac but better numbers than a maxed out MPX.
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Steve,

David's '93 SC has a 347 stroker (5.0 based) v8 swap, so his cam info will be for that setup. His '91 SC is still v6 based (4.3L) but uses a Whipple supercharger.

Jeramie
 
Steve Meyers said:
Looks like ill be going with a slotted MAF then, thanks for the input David!
What cam do you have in your 93 bird? Any ideas of how much power the stock bottom end will handle? I don't want to set myself up for failure. Not looking to put down numbers like Cmac but better numbers than a maxed out MPX.
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My 1993 has a 5.0 based motor with high flowing race heads. The cam was custom made for my combination by Isky. It's an old school reverse split pattern with more intake than exhaust duration and no overlap. I'd be happy to share the specs, but since they are not at all applicable to an SC motor it would not be any help for your project. Generally speaking, turbocharged motors don't need big cams to make big power, so don't go by what guys here are using with a supercharged SC.

I think, a stock bottom end in good condition would probably hold up fine at 400 rwhp when using a turbo and conservative tune. But I also think it's silly to use a stock bottom end when forged pistons and rods are readily available.

David
 
David Neibert said:
My 1993 has a 5.0 based motor with high flowing race heads. The cam was custom made for my combination by Isky. It's an old school reverse split pattern with more intake than exhaust duration and no overlap. I'd be happy to share the specs, but since they are not at all applicable to an SC motor it would not be any help for your project. Generally speaking, turbocharged motors don't need big cams to make big power, so don't go by what guys here are using with a supercharged SC.

I think, a stock bottom end in good condition would probably hold up fine at 400 rwhp when using a turbo and conservative tune. But I also think it's silly to use a stock bottom end when forged pistons and rods are readily available.

David
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Oh lol I see, so 212/212 would be good then? That's what Jeramie and I have been discussing, with a 3000 stall tq. Converter....
As far as forged pistons go, yeah I will probably end up going with forged pistons and rods, just depends on my money situation at the time and if I'm able to sell my mpx setup or not.
 
With the latest tech compressor and turbine wheels (Garret GTX series, Precision "CEA", etc) it seems people are making good power with single pattern cams and a tad wider lobe separation. Quite simply, they take less exhaust energy to run them and will tyipcally have a lower pressure ratio (less back pressure per lb of boost the compressor creates)

One of the most popular camshafts for the Buick Grand National now even has slightly more exhaust duration than intake. I forget the exact specs, but they spec it for use with a modern turbo design, and most guys are using it with a precision 5858 CEA in a modified buick turbine housing..

I wouldn't lose sleep over getting the "perfect" turbo cam in that thing Steve. Something from SSX or Dave Dalke will be fine, your stage 3 SSX heads support like .600 lift, right? You don't want a lot of overlap, and you don't need a ton of duration.

David Neibert does bring up a good point.. Although I do recall David Dalke making something like 440whp on an autorotor car with a boat load of miles on a stock bottom end.

Jeramie
 
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But then again if you go forged pistons/rods, you might as well go 4.2, then you might as well go bigger cam, then you might as well go bigger turbo.. See where this is going? :eek:
 
92bird said:
With the latest tech compressor and turbine wheels (Garret GTX series, Precision "CEA", etc) it seems people are making good power with single pattern cams and a tad wider lobe separation. Quite simply, they take less exhaust energy to run them and will tyipcally have a lower pressure ratio (less back pressure per lb of boost the compressor creates)

One of the most popular camshafts for the Buick Grand National now even has slightly more exhaust duration than intake. I forget the exact specs, but they spec it for use with a modern turbo design, and most guys are using it with a precision 5858 CEA in a modified buick turbine housing..

I wouldn't lose sleep over getting the "perfect" turbo cam in that thing Steve. Something from SSX or Dave Dalke will be fine, your stage 3 SSX heads support like .600 lift, right? You don't want a lot of overlap, and you don't need a ton of duration.

David Neibert does bring up a good point.. Although I do recall David Dalke making something like 440whp on an autorotor car with a boat load of miles on a stock bottom end.

Jeramie
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True on the current cam design thinking. After lots of people switched from supercharged to turbocharged mustangs and found that the Ford motorsports alphabet blower cams made great power, the whole split pattern with less exhaust duration to avoid reversion thinking started changing. Now the cams for turbos look a lot like a centrifugal blower cam.

Solid roller cams are also getting very popular on the turbo motors.

David

PS: I've seen several cars with stock bottom ends exceed 400 rwhp...I just wouldn't do it.
 
PS: I've seen several cars with stock bottom ends exceed 400 rwhp...I just wouldn't do it.
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Solid advice, I think when modifying at this level there is a certain responsibility to do things right.

Do you think a potential 475-500 rwhp setup could survive with a set of David Dalke's off the shelf forged pistons for stock SC rods, or does Steve need to quit being a pansy and just go with some H-beams and custom pistons?

I am now envisioning a 4.3L setup, and the new Billet 6466 turbo. Hehe..

Steve: Go make more money so we can finish this, LOL..
 
Well it seems many are running 300plus rwhp with blowers and stock bottom ends. I'd say that 400rwhp with a turbo shouldnt be a problem. Of course its cheap enough to just build a bottom end..But it be nice to see how far you can take the stock bottom end
 
92bird said:
Solid advice, I think when modifying at this level there is a certain responsibility to do things right.

Do you think a potential 475-500 rwhp setup could survive with a set of David Dalke's off the shelf forged pistons for stock SC rods, or does Steve need to quit being a pansy and just go with some H-beams and custom pistons?

I am now envisioning a 4.3L setup, and the new Billet 6466 turbo. Hehe..

Steve: Go make more money so we can finish this, LOL..
Click to expand...

I don't know, I think Dave would need to answer that. Stock rods aren't very strong and I've seen where several people bent them without even knowing it.

The built bottom end is also good insurance for when something goes wrong, like blowing the reference hose off the fuel pressure regulator or accidentally dialing in too much boost, too much timing, or hanging the throttle wide open because some screws fell out of the throttle plate while on the dyno and bouncing off the 6500 rpm rev limiter for about 20 seconds . BTW, these are all things that have happened to me.

David
 
David Neibert said:
I don't know, I think Dave would need to answer that. Stock rods aren't very strong and I've seen where several people bent them without even knowing it.

The built bottom end is also good insurance for when something goes wrong, like blowing the reference hose off the fuel pressure regulator or accidentally dialing in too much boost, too much timing, or hanging the throttle wide open because some screws fell out of the throttle plate while on the dyno and bouncing off the 6500 rpm rev limiter for about 20 seconds . BTW, these are all things that have happened to me.

David
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Very true, I guess I didn't really think about some of those things. Not to mention I already have $$ into my heads, why cheap out on the bottom and risk ruining the heads and starting all over.......doesn't sound like too much fun to me.
 
Here's some pictures of the progress of the piping build:
Now we're 100% positive that this kit is do-able, just time to piece together everything. And figure out what motor I'm going to go with so I can size the turbo appropriately. and figure out the down pipe ect. :D
 

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