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View Full Version : Father-son challenge in the works....



XR7 Dave
04-08-2013, 01:11 AM
So spring is just barely here and already the young buck can't wait to whip on his old dad. Last year I got him so it's 0-1 at the moment. Last year we were driving our Cougars but this year both our "good" motors are apart so we are going to duke it out with our temporary rides.

His - 95 5spd, mild cam, S-port, stock plenum & TB, UD's, cat-back exhaust, 2.73 gears.

Mine - 89 5spd, stock engine, FMIC, MPII w/ plenum 85mm TB etc., UD's, cat back exhaust, 3.27 gears.

So call it, how much power will each make? Who will win the dyno war?

neverfastenough
04-08-2013, 08:12 AM
No overdrive on either car? I think the 89 might edge it out. Not gonna guess numbers.

MadMikeyL
04-08-2013, 09:27 AM
I'm going to give the nod to the 89. I think the stock plenum, TB, and intercooler are going to seriously hold the 95 back.

kenewagner
04-08-2013, 09:30 AM
Im going to guess the 95. The cam will give it an edge I beleive

Ken


255 for the 89
270 for the 95

neverfastenough
04-08-2013, 09:33 AM
How about a pull off until one breaks, or pops the hgs. I say 15pulls back to back pops the 89 and 10 for the 95.

Loser cleans the floor

XR7 Dave
04-08-2013, 10:03 AM
How about a pull off until one breaks, or pops the hgs. I say 15pulls back to back pops the 89 and 10 for the 95.

Loser cleans the floor
Yes, that would be a hoot. :rolleyes:

Anyone else have any guesses on HP?

OD on the blowers is variable. He has a stock intercooler so OD is going to be limited if it is going to be effective. In my case OD is necessary because an MPII is not as efficient as as S-port.

I've made 300rwhp many times with a stock inlet plenum so don't get all caught up in that. The stock plenum is a restriction over 280rwhp but I don't know that we are going to be exceeding that anyway.

shoalcracker
04-08-2013, 10:26 AM
Does the mild cam also come with mild head porting.

Paul

neverfastenough
04-08-2013, 10:32 AM
Yes, that would be a hoot. :rolleyes:



You could do average hp over the total of pulls too. So youd be starting with some mean tunes to get the average up, then back em down preserving the life a bit longer. Would be cool if they wernt your motors:p

I guess 271 for phil
273 for the old man

#'s assuming you throw some good OD on yours

Kevin Leitem
04-08-2013, 10:37 AM
If dad is tuning both cars, then I will say dad will win!:D

superdadsc
04-08-2013, 10:51 AM
At first thought I was thinking MPii but now I am leaning toward the s port with the mild cam. My limited knowledge goes with the 95. Sorry Dave!:D

Can't wait till my girls are older so we can do fun stuff like this!

shoalcracker
04-08-2013, 11:01 AM
95..... 287 with ported stock heads
.........271 W/O

89......276

Hopeing for a cold day.:D

Paul

David Neibert
04-08-2013, 12:44 PM
I think the 95 with S port and mild cam is going to have the advantage on the dyno and pull around 270 rwhp vs 260 rwhp for the 89 with MPII and stock cam.

On the track, I think the 89 will have the advantage because of the FMIC, and who is driving it.

David

XR7 Phillip
04-08-2013, 04:27 PM
I just washed both cars yesterday and took some pics for you.

Dad doesn't know it yet, but we're also going to duke it out at the track, where I think I'll have the advantage because he's getting slow in his old age.. ha ha ;)

XR7 Phillip
04-08-2013, 04:29 PM
Does the mild cam also come with mild head porting.

Paul

No head porting, but I did upgrade the valve springs, good for 5500 rpm.

Ira R.
04-08-2013, 04:41 PM
I don't know.... that pretty blue one looks like it might actually have 300rwhp in it..... 280 for sure though. I don't know if dad can match that. He should certainly carry the day at the track though; if only because of his experience driving the 5 speed.

Ira

neverfastenough
04-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Dave's clutch leg has to be old and feeble, youngins gonna have the stomp and romp advantage here. Get yo pops some ensure before raceway to give him a chance.

Jk Dave, you're not that old. Though you did buy and automatic truck so I'm not sure.....

XR7 Dave
04-08-2013, 04:59 PM
Dave's clutch leg has to be old and feeble, youngins gonna have the stomp and romp advantage here. Get yo pops some ensure before raceway to give him a chance.

Jk Dave, you're not that old. Though you did buy and automatic truck so I'm not sure.....

Is that why you keep drooling over an automatic for the tur*b*?

shoalcracker
04-08-2013, 05:20 PM
When is the Cougar Country Clash taking place.

I'm watching the weather.

Paul

neverfastenough
04-08-2013, 05:39 PM
Is that why you keep drooling over an automatic for the tur*b*?

Touché old man touché

Ira R.
04-08-2013, 09:51 PM
When is the Cougar Country Clash taking place.

I'm watching the weather.

Paul

There is only one place this can take place - SHOOT OUT!!

Ira

XR7 Dave
04-08-2013, 10:08 PM
The gauntlet will be thrown this weekend with a preliminary dyno war. I'm guessing that the dyno event will uncover some weaknesses possibly on both combo's which we'll address as time and funds permit.

By Shootout time this will probably be at a whole different level because we should both have our "good" motors back by then. This is just a little fun in the mean time with the daily's.

boogeyman
04-09-2013, 09:55 AM
is this going to be 1 dyno pass for eash to see the power of will u be tunign them for the most power to see who makes the most

me and my dad actually got a chance to bracket race eachother in the finals at us41 fall of 2011 right before his passing it was the most intense race ive ever had with anyone since i learned everthing from him i was in my sc and he was in the race car. i actually edged him out on the tree by.09 and won the race by that margin

mywhite89
04-09-2013, 11:14 AM
The young gun is gonna make more power barely, and im on his side for the racing. I saw phil make a couple good passes last year. I say phil makes the fastest pass but Dave wins the consistancy battle. Btw, let me know when and where you guys go to race. I wouldn't mind bringing ours out to race.

chris

XR7 Dave
04-09-2013, 11:44 AM
is this going to be 1 dyno pass for eash to see the power of will u be tunign them for the most power to see who makes the most


We'll be tuning, and if one of the combo's is hurting badly due to a missing component that needs upgraded, we'll do that. We aren't going to re-invent either car, but we do also want to get the most of out of them both.

For example, mine has 95lb injectors but Phil's has 38's. Clearly I don't need the 95's, but if his runs out of injector then we'll address the issue and try again.

neverfastenough
04-09-2013, 11:46 AM
Go get some corn gas and put a dyno whoopin on him

Toms-SC
04-09-2013, 09:34 PM
Whomever has access to the correction factor on the dyno software is going to win. However, due to Phil's car being limited on fuel I'm going to say Dave will take it with ~20 HP over Phils.

MagpoweredSC
04-10-2013, 05:28 PM
95 – 240 rwhp
89 – 255 rwhp

Just a guess.

90coug
04-10-2013, 06:39 PM
Grab one of those mountable cameras and share the footage!


247 HP - 95
269 HP - 89

shoalcracker
04-10-2013, 08:36 PM
There is only one place this can take place - SHOOT OUT!!

Ira

I'm thinking when it's held locally the youngin gets a break.

Kinda like a Father/Son bonding thing.

In the International, Dad puts in some practice time.;)

Paul

XR7 Dave
04-10-2013, 08:48 PM
I'm thinking when it's held locally the youngin gets a break.

Kinda like a Father/Son bonding thing.

In the International, Dad puts in some practice time.;)

Paul

Sentimental idea, but no go. Kid gets no breaks.

boogeyman
04-10-2013, 10:47 PM
Sentimental idea, but no go. Kid gets no breaks.

he wont learn to be faster if u give him breaks lol
sorry if i seem to be commenting alot about this but me and my dad did this kinda thing all the time and it is some of my best memories with him

shoalcracker
04-10-2013, 11:22 PM
Sentimental idea, but no go. Kid gets no breaks.

Dad's got the itch.

Lord help us.:)

Paul

XR7 Dave
04-11-2013, 08:37 AM
Dad's got the itch.

Lord help us.:)

Paul

He started it. :p

neverfastenough
04-11-2013, 08:58 AM
Are you doing it this weekend?

SCrazy
04-11-2013, 10:20 AM
He started it. :p

The boys talking trash around the garage

Ira R.
04-11-2013, 01:56 PM
The boys talking trash around the garage

"The boys..."?? Is this turning into a tagteam race now?? :eek: ;)


Ira

XR7 Phillip
04-11-2013, 04:08 PM
The boys talking trash around the garage

Yeah, kinda.

I also built both cars. ;)

Ira R.
04-11-2013, 04:55 PM
Yeah, kinda.

I also built both cars. ;)

Well hang on a second now. If all that is required is for you to have a hand in building the car I would suggest that could open the door to all sorts of sandba.... errr.... possibilities I mean. :p :rolleyes:

Ira

bigpoppa822
04-11-2013, 05:29 PM
On what kind of dyno?
Phil's car is real close to what mine was a few years ago. I did 250/361 on a dynojet with his setup minus UDs and some exhaust work.

Phil at 265/370 if it's a Dynojet.
Dave at 273/355 because of the gears.

XR7 Dave
04-11-2013, 09:51 PM
So the question is, who has the upper hand when it comes to the sabotage? Him for building them, me for tuning them? Hmmmmmmm........:rolleyes:

TwoToneThunder
04-11-2013, 10:27 PM
or if i let him borrow a few parts and not tell you :rolleyes:

jludorf
04-13-2013, 12:28 AM
I would guess it will be close. I never exceeded 262hp/370tq on a stock 94 long block with every bolt on possible. I think it will be close.


Phil's car 240
David's car 250

Good idea guys

JT's03
04-13-2013, 11:21 AM
I have no idea what these mods will yeild either cars but it seems an upgraded blower will edge out a stock unit.

Good luck to you both!

XR7 Dave
04-13-2013, 07:58 PM
Ok, the guesses are in and the gauntlet has been thrown. Unfortunately I didn't make the dyno today due to a variety of circumstances, but Phil did.

John Ludorf
Phil's car 240
David's car 250

Ken Wagner
Phil's car 270
David's car 255

Corey Binks
Phil's car 271
David's car 273

Paul Wark
Phil's car 271
David's car 276

David Neibert
Phil's car 270
David's car 260

Mark Paulhamus
Phil's car 240
David's car 255

Bryce Johnson
Phil's car 247
David's car 269

Tom Joy
Phil's car 265
David's car 273

XR7 Dave
04-13-2013, 08:18 PM
Phil's actual #'s - 248rwhp generating 15.5psi boost at peak rpm. So that makes Bryce the winner by guessing 247rwhp. :)

This is a bone stock motor with a mild cam upgrade, cat back exhaust (stock downtubes), UD pulleys, S-port blower with stock 89 pulley, intercooler fan, 3" intake, 65mm TB, 38lb injectors, chip/tune and 77MM Pro M MAF. The cool thing is that these parts are all reject parts I had laying around from old builds so the total cost in parts for Phil is so far amounts to about whatever I should have charged him to install the motor and build the FMIC for my car. :D

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56462&stc=1&d=1365898720

shoalcracker
04-13-2013, 08:59 PM
Looks like no flow no go.:eek:

Honestly thought the cam would give it a push.

If it wasn't bleeding at the end it's always a good dyno day.

Congrats Phil

Paul

dhindy
04-13-2013, 09:30 PM
That seems like a good # to me. Considering his mods compared to mine and both making identical HP. I have reground cam,ported heads, bigger valves, 75mm TB, 80 mm MAF, ported 91 blower,60lb injectors,and chip. Does the blowers make that big of a difference. I know heat played a big factor the day it was last Dyno 'd but shouldn't be much of one this time. Hoping for a little better results now that its cooler.Work your magic Dave find me at least 10 more HP. So I can at least say my car has more hp than a stock engine.

XR7 Dave
04-13-2013, 10:03 PM
That seems like a good # to me. Considering his mods compared to mine and both making identical HP. I have reground cam,ported heads, bigger valves, 75mm TB, 80 mm MAF, ported 91 blower,60lb injectors,and chip. Does the blowers make that big of a difference. I know heat played a big factor the day it was last Dyno 'd but shouldn't be much of one this time. Hoping for a little better results now that its cooler.Work your magic Dave find me at least 10 more HP. So I can at least say my car has more hp than a stock engine.

David, your car is currently suffering from belt slip so it only makes 12psi. Yes, a decent ported blower would make a world of difference for your car. Also don't forget it's an automatic with a high stall converter.

XR7 Dave
04-13-2013, 10:07 PM
Looks like no flow no go.:eek:

Honestly thought the cam would give it a push.

If it wasn't bleeding at the end it's always a good dyno day.

Congrats Phil

Paul

It does give it a push. But with a stock intercooler we didn't want to increase OD any more. We could easily have made 17-18psi, but that wouldn't work too well in real life. Notice torque is low, only 310-320. 18psi would have made 370rwtq, but at a cost of constant detonation. As it is this combo is flirting with detonation at only 18 deg total timing.

LIVipers
04-13-2013, 10:26 PM
Those are pretty good numbers considering the parts used. As Dave stated, using "reject" parts he gained nearly 50 rwhp....can't beat that! Especially with the stock intercooler

Tom

dhindy
04-13-2013, 10:57 PM
David, your car is currently suffering from belt slip so it only makes 12psi. Yes, a decent ported blower would make a world of difference for your car. Also don't forget it's an automatic with a high stall converter.

Did my car get dyno'd today then. And do you have the stiffer tensioner springs. I can install them just need to know where to get them

TwoToneThunder
04-14-2013, 12:28 AM
any of the fleet at your house for sale?

David Neibert
04-14-2013, 10:57 AM
Phil's actual #'s - 248rwhp generating 15.5psi boost at peak rpm. So that makes Bryce the winner by guessing 247rwhp. :)



No wonder the numbers were lower than expected, your using Kevin's dyno aka "The Dream Crusher".

David

XR7 Dave
04-14-2013, 08:16 PM
any of the fleet at your house for sale? lol, actually yes. I've been contemplating selling my wife's daily. It's a 95 auto, light pearl grey mist. Needs some work (mostly paint) but makes a great daily driver. I've been thinking about putting together a few pics and listing it up.

David, I don't know about "dream crusher". Phil's car doesn't have any OD and it still made 248rwhp. That's not bad at all considering only 18 deg timing too. Temps were cool but humidity was about 80% (it was raining).

Tim Groth
04-16-2013, 08:54 PM
Gears will win at the strip so I will give the edge to Dave's 89.

-Tim

David Neibert
04-17-2013, 05:04 PM
lol, actually yes. I've been contemplating selling my wife's daily. It's a 95 auto, light pearl grey mist. Needs some work (mostly paint) but makes a great daily driver. I've been thinking about putting together a few pics and listing it up.

David, I don't know about "dream crusher". Phil's car doesn't have any OD and it still made 248rwhp. That's not bad at all considering only 18 deg timing too. Temps were cool but humidity was about 80% (it was raining).

David,

I agree that it's a good number..especially for that dyno. I still expect your numbers to be about 10 rwhp lower. BTW, when are you putting your car on the dyno ?

David

XR7 Dave
04-17-2013, 10:07 PM
I finally managed to get my car on the dyno tonight and was pleasantly surprised. I know some people will think I'm throwing the contest among other things, but I'm not. It is what it is.

Just to be clear, this is exactly what the car has, starting from the top/front and moving down/back.


Home made 4.5" intake with 1400cfm air filter, 95lb injectors and slot MAF.
85MM TB and MP plenum attached to an MPII with bare rotors and 15% OD.
Massive CX Racing FMIC assembled by Phil and I.
UD pulleys
Exhaust system consisting of completely stock manifolds, Magnaflow 2" downtubes with cats, Jones resonator, dual 2.5" pipes and Flowmaster 40's.


Anything not listed is totally stock.

With 16 deg timing it made 283rwhp and 20psi boost.

I have to say that the intercooler is the key to this combination because there is no way on earth we'd be able to run 20psi through a stock intercooler. We logged a 6 deg temp rise during the course of a long 4th gear pull. That makes all the difference.

So there it is. Paul was closest guessing 276rwhp. If I'd have been adventurous and felt like adding another 6 deg of timing we might have broken 300rwhp. But that is for another day....

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56533&stc=1&d=1366250855

kenewagner
04-17-2013, 10:19 PM
I finally managed to get my car on the dyno tonight and was pleasantly surprised. I know some people will think I'm throwing the contest among other things, but I'm not. It is what it is.

Just to be clear, this is exactly what the car has, starting from the top/front and moving down/back.


Home made 4.5" intake with 1400cfm air filter, 95lb injectors and slot MAF.
85MM TB and MP plenum attached to an MPII with bare rotors and 15% OD.
Massive CX Racing FMIC assembled by Phil and I.
UD pulleys
Exhaust system consisting of completely stock manifolds, Magnaflow 2" downtubes with cats, Jones resonator, dual 2.5" pipes and Flowmaster 40's.


Anything not listed is totally stock.

With 16 deg timing it made 283rwhp and 20psi boost.

I have to say that the intercooler is the key to this combination because there is no way on earth we'd be able to run 20psi through a stock intercooler. We logged a 6 deg temp rise during the course of a long 4th gear pull. That makes all the difference.

So there it is. Tom and Corey both guessed 273 so that's as close as it was. If I'd have been adventurous and felt like adding another 6 deg of timing we might have broken 300rwhp. But that is for another day....

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56533&stc=1&d=1366250855


Nice job Dave, guess the intercooler is a key component to make big power

Ken

Kurt K
04-17-2013, 11:09 PM
...guess the intercooler is a key component to make big power

Ken
I guess I might need to take notes

David Neibert
04-17-2013, 11:59 PM
Wow...that is very impressive for stock cam and heads.

David

neverfastenough
04-18-2013, 08:14 AM
Dave, have you ever ran the slot maf in a blow thru configuration on a blower sc. I ask because my temp logs with the cx racing core using the stock act and then the slot maf's sensor were quite different. Either the stock ACT is very slow to react, or its the big heat sink its screwed into. Sometimes my ACT would only move a degree or two on the street with a real long pull, now with the hpx maf the temp curve moves almost the instant I hit the throttle.

XR7 Dave
04-18-2013, 08:24 AM
Dave, have you ever ran the slot maf in a blow thru configuration on a blower sc. I ask because my temp logs with the cx racing core using the stock act and then the slot maf's sensor were quite different. Either the stock ACT is very slow to react, or its the big heat sink its screwed into. Sometimes my ACT would only move a degree or two on the street with a real long pull, now with the hpx maf the temp curve moves almost the instant I hit the throttle.

I have not yet run a slot MAF in blow through on an SC. It's possible that sensor resolution and response is an issue here but I doubt it. On the street during short WOT bursts ACT's sometimes drop down lower than they were during cruise.

I agree that the new sensor is a better design, but I think it's more likely that your current IC system is not as effective as you would like it to be.

neverfastenough
04-18-2013, 08:29 AM
I have not yet run a slot MAF in blow through on an SC. It's possible that sensor resolution and response is an issue here but I doubt it. On the street during short WOT bursts ACT's sometimes drop down lower than they were during cruise.

I agree that the new sensor is a better design, but I think it's more likely that your current IC system is not as effective as you would like it to be.

Im speaking of a stock ACT on my old cx intercooler and a slot ACT on my cx intercooler. I havent actually looked at any data on my new intercooler logs, I bet any money its more than a 9 degree rise though. Guess I need to get back on ebay and get another cx one :o

My first 4th gear pull from last year, the day before the trans died, was on its way to 140 degrees, 32x12x3 cx core, 3rd gear pull was over 130 also. But two different cars two different days, not a fair comparison.

kenewagner
04-18-2013, 08:44 AM
Im speaking of a stock ACT on my old cx intercooler and a slot ACT on my cx intercooler. I havent actually looked at any data on my new intercooler logs, I bet any money its more than a 9 degree rise though. Guess I need to get back on ebay and get another cx one :o




A little off the subject here. I have the slotted MAF that I am going to run in the new configuration. Dave said hook up the ACT wiring on it. Does the slotted sensor do away with the stock ACT sensor? Do I cut the wiring to the stock ACT sensor and wire that in to the slotted MAF? and if so what wires hooks to what wies on the slotted sensor? I assume the slotted MAF does extra duty as a ACT sensor. Havent got my head all all round the configuration yet

Ken

neverfastenough
04-18-2013, 08:50 AM
A little off the subject here. I have the slotted MAF that I am going to run in the new configuration. Dave said hook up the ACT wiring on it. Does the slotted sensor do away with the stock ACT sensor? Do I cut the wiring to the stock ACT sensor and wire that in to the slotted MAF? and if so what wires hooks to what wies on the slotted sensor? I assume the slotted MAF does extra duty as a ACT sensor. Havent got my head all all round the configuration yet

Ken

Yes it eliminates the stock act, both are 2 wire. I cut the connector off the stock act wiring and ran it to the two temp wires on the slot maf. As far as which wire goes to which, I dont know. I said screw it, I have a 50/50 chance, and its working. Maybe someone needs to do some testing on the sensors using an independent 3rd sensor, thermocouple or something.

Ford slot mafs are only 10 bux on ebay I hear, thats probably cheaper than a ACT sensor from autozone. Flanges are 14 dollars in aluminum. I dont remember my return plenum but maybe theres room for both side by side, for those curious people

XR7 Dave
04-18-2013, 09:36 AM
Nice job Dave, guess the intercooler is a key component to make big power

Ken

Things are always hard to put to pen and paper, or quantify in black and white per se. As you and I both know, a big intercooler doesn't guarantee HP. A specific build comes to mind that I worked on years ago where we took a motor that made 385rwhp through a double IC and put a MPFMIC on it and made the same 385rwhp. I was rather dumbfounded at the time. Charles and I both thought for sure we would gain at least 20rwhp but alas, nothing.

In this case, we are matching the biggest intercooler I've ever worked with to a boost level that is normally unsustainable on pump gas alone and allowing it to all work together.

Let me quantify.

In 65 deg weather, a typical stock intercooler will cruise at about 90 deg ACT if you are moving along down the road. Improving that IC with a double or any other IC that will fit in the stock location will typically not drastically impact that cruise temp. This is mainly because airflow over the core is essentially unchanged and there is an endless source of heat - the engine - warming it up. The way the SC supercharger system is designed it circulates air through the IC constantly and at high velocity through the core hence heating up the IC as you drive. The blower runs at a pretty constant 150-180 deg simply because it's mounted on top of the motor, and so the IC normally operates at a minimum of about 100-120 deg. It is simply impossible for it to lower temps any more than that.

Consider what then happens when you open the throttle and actually start to generate additional heat in the blower. When cruising, you are actually relying on incoming air from the air filter itself to lower ACT's from 120 (ID temperature) to the 90-95 deg you are reading at the ACT sensor. So now that the blower is generating more heat, your ACT's can go nowhere but up. It is typical on a stock SC for us to read 95-100 deg ACT's before a run, and about a 40 deg rise during the run. If we mod the IC (like a double IC, for example, and shorten or remove the AC condenser, now the dyno's fan can blow directly on the IC core, and starting temps can often be lowered by about 10 deg, and peak temps can be lowered an additional 10 deg so now peak temps might be 120. Good power can be made at 120 deg ACT.

But everyone want's to overdrive the blower or improve its VE in various ways so stock boost is rarely the case. Raising boost from 12 to 15psi (typical), will cause ACT's on a stock setup to create a delta of 60 deg instead of 40, and now you are in a territory that is borderline sustainable with pump gas. Even with a double IC you are still borderline, mostly because your starting ACT is too high and there is nothing you can do about it. For short runs where you cool off the intercooler before the run, it works pretty well, but if the IC is hot before the run, the game is over before you begin.

A good FMIC like the MP setup with lower the delta to about 20 deg but due to it's mid mount location, it heat soaks just as badly as the stock intercooler. Airflow is poor and it heat soaks badly. It's not quite big enough to shed all the heat being put into it from the engine/blower/radiator during cruise, so often you end up starting your pull at the same 95 deg as the stock IC. On the dyno I can normally get that lower, but it's not necessarily realistic to do so.

We ran 20psi from the MPX-S in Phil's car last year with a typical FMIC like what a lot of people here run. In fact it was the very IC I used to run on Connnie's XR7 when I had the AR on it making 20psi. It was mounted quite forward of the radiator with no AC core at all so cruising ACT's were often within 10 deg of ambient but I think this core still wasn't big enough because it would see 140 deg after a long WOT run at 20psi. That's still some pretty significant heat.

With this setup things are different. We knew that the 4" core was not going to flow well so we mounted it as low and as far forward as possible so as to hopefully prevent heat soak. We also have a lot of piping that I believe also helps to shed heat. Anyway, the bottom line is that the IC is big enough to shed all of the engine and blower's heat while cruising such that the core not only remains at ambient temperature, but it keeps the outgoing air at ambient temperature also. On this car, net ACT's during cruise match ambient temps to within 2 deg.

On the dyno, a 10 second WOT run at 20psi netted a 6 deg increase in ACT's. That's just unheard of. Ambient temps were about 50 deg outside, but the inside of the shop was about 60 deg, and after sitting still in the shop and running the engine, etc., starting ACT's were about 70-74. With virtually no air moving over the core, we were seeing just a bit higher than ambient but I didn't care much since we were just in the middle of tuning and didn't want to waste a bunch of time cooling the IC. Simple math will tell you that over the course of the entire run we didn't see ACT's climb to even the starting point for pretty much any other air/air IC setup I've ever seen.

So basically, it's not just all about the size of the IC, it's the fact that we are able to maintain ambient temps right up to the start of a WOT pull anywhere, anytime. Then there is the fact that the shear size and heat sink capability of the core + having it way out front and low means that it can not only absorb a lot of heat, but has the opportunity to shed it quickly too.

So that's that.

XR7 Dave
04-18-2013, 09:40 AM
Yes it eliminates the stock act, both are 2 wire. I cut the connector off the stock act wiring and ran it to the two temp wires on the slot maf. As far as which wire goes to which, I dont know. I said screw it, I have a 50/50 chance, and its working. Maybe someone needs to do some testing on the sensors using an independent 3rd sensor, thermocouple or something.

Ford slot mafs are only 10 bux on ebay I hear, thats probably cheaper than a ACT sensor from autozone. Flanges are 14 dollars in aluminum. I dont remember my return plenum but maybe theres room for both side by side, for those curious people

A stock Ford slot MAF sensor won't handle the airflow you need in a 3" tube. Even an aftermarket one will be sketchy at the power levels you guys are looking at. In my case I'm using a 4.5" tube but resolution is crappy at idle. It will barely run if the car is moving.

On a positive note, my 95lb injectors seem to be working fine on the stock motor. Peaking at 33% duty cycle. lol

neverfastenough
04-18-2013, 09:48 AM
I meant just sticking it there to read temps.

XR7 Dave
04-18-2013, 09:54 AM
I meant just sticking it there to read temps.I thought you were talking to Ken. He's using a slot MAF in a 3" tube. As for me, I have no desire to go to all the trouble right now. I don't have any reason to doubt my readings. The pipes were cold after the run.

shoalcracker
04-18-2013, 10:46 AM
95..... 287 with ported stock heads
.........271 W/O

89......276

Hopeing for a cold day.:D


Paul

I had faith.:)

Paul

XR7 Dave
04-18-2013, 11:56 AM
I had faith.:)

Paul

Oops, I can't read my own typing.

I'm really curious to see if the car can back it up at the track. Last time it made these numbers it ran 13.7 @ 101mph, so that's the benchmark. If it will run those #'s then I will experiment at the track with added timing and see where that takes us.

With Phil's car a bigger intercooler is out of the question since this is his daily driver and not his performance car. I'm going to get him to install an alcohol injection kit though and see if more timing and cooler ACT's can get him to the 270rwhp level. If we can get there, then maybe we'll go to the track and run driver against driver. :D I'm pretty sure his car is going to be a couple hundred pounds lighter so that is another thing to take into account.

dhindy
04-18-2013, 08:22 PM
I finally managed to get my car on the dyno tonight and was pleasantly surprised. I know some people will think I'm throwing the contest among other things, but I'm not. It is what it is.

Just to be clear, this is exactly what the car has, starting from the top/front and moving down/back.


Home made 4.5" intake with 1400cfm air filter, 95lb injectors and slot MAF.
85MM TB and MP plenum attached to an MPII with bare rotors and 15% OD.
Massive CX Racing FMIC assembled by Phil and I.
UD pulleys
Exhaust system consisting of completely stock manifolds, Magnaflow 2" downtubes with cats, Jones resonator, dual 2.5" pipes and Flowmaster 40's.


Anything not listed is totally stock.

With 16 deg timing it made 283rwhp and 20psi boost.

I have to say that the intercooler is the key to this combination because there is no way on earth we'd be able to run 20psi through a stock intercooler. We logged a 6 deg temp rise during the course of a long 4th gear pull. That makes all the difference.

So there it is. Paul was closest guessing 276rwhp. If I'd have been adventurous and felt like adding another 6 deg of timing we might have broken 300rwhp. But that is for another day....

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56533&stc=1&d=1366250855

Care to sure the Link of that IC or the dimensions. I commented about that intercooler when I dropped off my car it looked like it was mounted low and was huge.

Jacob_Royer
04-18-2013, 08:41 PM
Care to sure the Link of that IC or the dimensions. I commented about that intercooler when I dropped off my car it looked like it was mounted low and was huge.

Can this one be ran with ac still in the car? I refuse to delete my ac but want to run a big IC
This makes me have a lot more faith in my setup doing what I want it too!


Fresh bottom end forged internals
Fresh home port heads
272/.496 112lobe sep cam matching springs and pushrods
ARP head studs
Ported intake ported return plenum ported exhaust manifolds
Ported late model 5% od
Mp plenum
76mm tb
76mm maf
255lph pump
#42 injectors
Raised top
3" intake tune 9" conical filter
2.5/3/2.5 exhuast no cats dynomax super turbos
Zex ford efi nitrous kit 25/50/75hp(I plan on 25/50hp shot)
Gathering parts for fmic
26x8.50x26 mt et drags slicks with tubes

I'm hoping for 300/315rwhp without the n20 and am looking to break into the high 12s
This is an auto car.. am I smoking crack?

shoalcracker
04-19-2013, 10:52 AM
Jacbb

Keep in the back of your mind that the auto's are typically down 7-10% on the dyno compared to the sticks.

One of the members up here has a well thought out well built auto that squeezes a little over 320 on the dyno.

But it is a consistant 12.4 car at the track.

Paul

tim
08-06-2013, 04:56 PM
50 shot of nitrous is so small you wont even feel it. When it comes to most things in life old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill. that said Dave you will have the edge at the track.:D

XR7 Dave
08-06-2013, 05:56 PM
I made Phil stop modding his car and refused to let him take it to the track. It needs to be reliable!

His XR7 on the other hand has been at the track a bit with a new motor and a few other upgrades. We started out making 378rwhp on the dyno and then running 13.0's at the track. Turned out we had fuel system problems so we have been working on fixing that. We had it running pretty decent the other night and managed some 12.6's out of it but it's still weak on the top end so we are going back to the dyno to see if the fuel system upgrades are making it run too fat. More on that shortly.

My car on the other hand went under the knife awhile back as someone else needed the blower more than I did. I have finally got a blower back on the car but haven't driven it yet. For now we are focusing on getting Phil's car ready for the Shootout. :D

ricardoa1
08-06-2013, 06:05 PM
How many cars does Phil have?

XR7 Dave
08-15-2013, 09:50 AM
How many cars does Phil have?Lol, 2 or 3.

We haven't made it back to the dyno yet, but on the one pass he made he managed a 12.49 @ 111mph on his first pass. Finally making some progress.

My car is still sitting in the garage. But at least I have a blower on it again. Yay!

mywhite89
08-26-2013, 08:39 PM
So who's gonna be your rebel child that wants a Chevy camaro Dave?

Chris

XR7 Dave
08-26-2013, 09:01 PM
So who's gonna be your rebel child that wants a Chevy camaro Dave?

Chris
Lol, well my kids all liked the Camaro when I had it but they are bigger and wiser now. :D

On that note, we did make it back to the dyno the other day and put down 395rwhp. But I still chickened out with adding more timing so it's still running a conservative 25 deg with alcohol injection. I think there's more in it, but we need to get it working at the track first. Broke the diff last time out so working on a replacement now.

My car moved itself out of the garage last week, so that's progress. :)

ricardoa1
08-26-2013, 09:26 PM
Stock diff?

XR7 Dave
08-26-2013, 09:35 PM
Stock diff?Not exactly. It was rebuilt by a previous person. Supposed to have new 3.27 gears and an Auburn. But I think they may have screwed up the build. Anyway, we'll see what happened tomorrow when I pull it apart.

superdadsc
08-26-2013, 11:31 PM
His - 95 5spd, mild cam, S-port, stock plenum & TB, UD's, cat-back exhaust, 2.73 gears

Is this still his setup making 395? Did you add some of your heads and a better cam? Interested in his setup?:D

XR7 Dave
08-27-2013, 07:29 AM
His - 95 5spd, mild cam, S-port, stock plenum & TB, UD's, cat-back exhaust, 2.73 gears

Is this still his setup making 395? Did you add some of your heads and a better cam? Interested in his setup?:D

No, he has two cars. The first one I handed him his butt pretty solidly. That car is still his DD and has received no additional mods. The other car is a 1990 XR7. We both have two cars, the first car I had is the 1989 XR7 and then the second one is a 1993 SC which is currently apart. Anyway, so we kind of morphed into a second challenge.

His XR7 has a forged bottom end 3.8L that he picked up here on the boards (no, I didn't build it (!) ). It has a cam and heads package that was previously installed done by some shop out in VA (no one known to these boards) which I would call "Stage 1.5". The cam is mild and pulls 12-13" vacuum at idle.

On top of that he put an MPX-S and a FMIC off Ebay. An Aeromotive 340 fuel pump and 80lb injectors with a Snow alcohol injection system round out the fuel delivery. I built a dual 2.5" exhaust system for stock exhaust manifolds to go on it. It has full cats, is very quiet, and makes 19.5psi boost.

We had some problems with the fuel pump so the first time at the track netted some 12.6's with it running out of fuel badly in 3rd and 4th gear but we got that fixed now and with full power Phil's one and only pass was 12.49 @ 111mph before the diff broke. We hope to have it back together soon so he can get some practice running it before the Shootout.

superdadsc
08-28-2013, 12:13 PM
Thanks Dave. Sounds like a really nice combo. Almost 400rwhp. Sweet. That MPX with the new coating sounds like a nice setup!

You must be having a lot of fun.

My daughters are starting to go to tennis tournaments with me and going to watch my lessons. I can't wait till they are old enough to play some father/daughter events with them. That will be cool!:D

When I get my 89 I will be in the market for a nice cam. It has a comp cam stage two which isn't really helping my efforts from what I understand.