Changing the Engine Managment system?

Tedor

Registered User
Hi!

Im thinking of changing the Engine managment system to something more universal like, VEMS, GEMS, Civinco or another so that people here in sweden can tune it. I dont know if a "piggy-back" will work or if I need to replace the whole system, I think the later one...

Have anybody done this? And how did it turn out? What are your thoughts?

Best Regrads Fredrik from sweden
 
My opinion is don't even think about it unless you don't ever want to drive your SC again. The QH is easy to use. If that's too tough then the other options out there are going to be worse.

I can tell you more than one horror story of people who thought it would be better to swap systems. If you have explored all the possibilities of the stock EEC and QH combination and find that it isn't meeting your needs, then I say by all means upgrade. But I don't think you are at that point.

People are more than happy to take your money and promise you the world. However, very few can deliver on that promise.


I'll let others chime in though.
 
My opinion is don't even think about it unless you don't ever want to drive your SC again. The QH is easy to use. If that's too tough then the other options out there are going to be worse.

I can tell you more than one horror story of people who thought it would be better to swap systems. If you have explored all the possibilities of the stock EEC and QH combination and find that it isn't meeting your needs, then I say by all means upgrade. But I don't think you are at that point.

People are more than happy to take your money and promise you the world. However, very few can deliver on that promise.


I'll let others chime in though.

David is right, the stock EEC, QH, Binary editor and our SC specific definition files are more than up to the challenge. MY 400 RWHP SC idled and drove perfectly using these. To make it even better is the low cost to have the ability to tune it. Add up the cost going down this route and then check into other options, they won't even be close.
 
I would give QH a try before installing something like VEMS as that requires hacking of your factory harness or making a new harness.

I personally use VEMS on my BMW and I know it is incredibly popular in N. Europe. Even then the factory computer in the SC is plenty capable so it is worth keeping unless your setup is so wild you need some of the special features the factory ECU does not offer. My reasoning for going with VEMS is the factory Motronic was very lacking in ability!

Skål!
 
I agree the Moates QuarterHorse wil allow you to real time tune your factory EEC. If someone can tune an aftermarket EEC they can tune with this. No reason to swap.
 
I'm going to play the Dumb American card here.

Isn't Ford number two in Europe after V.W. group, so why wouldn't tuners be familiar at least some what with our system. Would it not also be better/easier to go a OBD-II EEC (like SHO)? Or is the problem that the SC was never officially imported, and their rarity the problem?
 
Thanks for the inputs guys you are great! :D

The reason why I ask is beacuse no one can tune the QH in sweden and I dont have the time to dig into tuning. I have alot of freinds with Mitsubishi Evo, Toyota supra, volvo 740 that are running aftermarket engine managment systems so my though was if I swap to something more common I could have it tuned by a pro, maybe the SC isn't at easy to change the system as other cars.

I have seen a guy swap to mustang engine managment system and I will remember he gained some HP by doing that.

Right now the car runs fine on the base 60's tune I got from Dave but in the future I plan on MPx, bigger intercooler, bigger intake, bigger MAF and TB and cam, and maybe switch to E85(E85 is very common in sweden, you can find it everywhere) depending if the petrol will handle the boost or not. And maybe I even need 80's for E85. So then I need a new tune and I know if something goes wrong with the tune the car will take damage or broke so I dont think I will do it myself, then it would be good if a pro tuned it...

I dont plan on anymore mods than those.

A U.S Ford is not the same as a E.U Ford, there is like 15 SC's in the country and my SC is the only one with mods so no one have experience here. For example the Ford Focus RS is using a Volvo T5 engine and managment system.

Sorry for my bad english

Skål Bimmernack! ;)

Regards Fredrik :D
 
I have seen a guy swap to mustang engine managment system and I will remember he gained some HP by doing that.

I don't think this will relate to your car.

The only real benefit going stand alone to me is ditching the maf for speed density. Although the maf curve can be scaled it is just a very touchy sensor. So far on my car the ford stuff has worked great. I tune with sct and advantage3 software. It's ok just time consuming vs tuning on the fly with qh. The stock ecu will handle e85, bigger injectors, and more boost than you can run on a mpx.

On a side note, look into the id1000 injectors when you upgrade. the sd 80's can be a pain to tune.
 
Pictures of what? =)

The only reason I thinking of changing the engine managment system is beacuse swedish companys can tune it

How much boost will the stock ECC and QH handle?

Regards =)
 
I believe I heard of 26 PSI.

Not to speak for anyone but if you installed QH could you not start with a base tune from a tuner here, do some data logging send them that data and get a tune. Repeat and refine until both parties are happy.

Hey, with Windows Remote Desktop it might even be possible to tune in real time.
 
Boost will be limited to maf choice. It should handle over 600rwhp worth of air.
 
Last edited:
Personally if the person can't tune a QH powered car I have to question their ability to actually tune a car. The EEC-IV is not mysterious, the strategies are fairly well published, and the basic strategy for tuning is essentially the basic strategy to tune any internal combustion engine. A guy who already can tune cars with some other hardware that has any idea what he is doing around an internal combustion motor should be able to pick up the QH pretty well.

the SC may be a bit more challenging, but most of the time that is due to mechanical issues that exist and need to be fixed on the car first. Tuning around vac leaks and under sized fuel systems, and belt slip and bad alternators, and bad grounds, bad plug wires, bad plugs you name it can make any tuning a study in frustration.
 
It would be fairly simple to put in an OBD2 system from a Mustang 3.8 and use an SCT tuner. Basically the same as putting the t-bird engine in my Mustang. You don't even need a tuner for OBD2, any competent dyno tuner can tune OBD2. I believe that you should retain the factory system because there are plenty of people on this site making gobs of power with it. There are all kinds of options with emailed custom tunes and rechipped EEC's.
 
Last edited:
It would be fairly simple to put in an OBD2 system from a Mustang 3.8 and use an SCT tuner. Basically the same as putting the t-bird engine in my Mustang. You don't even need a tuner for OBD2, any competent dyno tuner can tune OBD2. I believe that you should retain the factory system because there are plenty of people on this site making gobs of power with it. There are all kinds of options with emailed custom tunes and rechipped EEC's.

You guys aren't really understanding the situation. OBDII is not better, or really even any different. Ford uses the same basic strategy to operate all engines, over most all years, up until the new stuff which gets much more complicated. The EEC IV system is just a baby brother of the EEC V, or OBDII. The SC was the test platform and the template for all later versions of Ford engine management. So if anyone can tune a Ford OBDII processor, then tuning an SC is even easier. The only difference is that slightly different software is used, but the actual program is the same (only simpler). The principles are the same, the strategies are the same. The biggest difference is that the EEC IV can be tuned live rather than requiring the "shut down and reflash" process. From a tuning stand point, EEC IV is actually better than OBDII. Furthermore, Tedor already has a top notch mail order tune. He wants more.

Bottom line is, if someone can tune an OBDII Ford, then using a QH is simple. Tuners tend to be a-holes though and won't even open it up to look at it. Either that or they just aren't smart enough to handle the minor GUI differences between SCT and BE. I run into this all the time.

The real issue that Tedor is referring to is people (tuners) who aren't familiar with any Ford systems. They are used to speed density systems and don't want to learn Ford's MAF system. I do understand this because Ford's system is quite different from standard speed density. It's easier, but different. Many tuners just can't seem to wrap their minds around how a system could possibly be simpler than speed density. I guess parts of the above paragraph still apply.

I tune with both systems (MAF and Speed Density) so I'm not speaking out my left ear. I know the challenges of both. But my ability to help Tedor is limited since I can't be there in person. Someone like myself can remote in on his laptop which I have done before, but that is still a bit of a pain compared to having a tuner being hands on with the car.

I fully understand the urge to swap out for a different system, and I've worked with people to do just that. Having been through the process I can pretty much sum up how it is likely to go:

  • You'll pay a healthy sum for an aftermarket system that can mostly be adapted to work.
  • You'll spend more time than you thought, and a lot more time than you'd like, installing the system or else you'll pay someone else a lot of money to hack up your factory wiring.
  • After it's installed some things won't work. You'll spend a lot of time figuring out why they don't work. If you hired someone to make it all work for you, most likely they will give up trying to make it work, or they will tell you that "you don't need that". You'll end up with things that don't work.
  • You will have to verify that sensors are giving accurate data - like did the crank sensor pickup result in a time shift of the ignition signal? Is it running on falling edge or rising? Why does it not respond to commands like the instruction manual said it would? Why is it not compatible with the Ford hall-effect pickup like the instructions said? What do I do about the computer controlled dwell system that is part of the DIS? What, do I now have to convert to coil on plug and add on another ignition control system that wasn't included with the EMS package I paid a lot of money for?
  • How do I verify that commanded spark and ignition timing are actually correct?
  • Wait, the original installer screwed up one of his wires. I can't find the wire now and what is this red/green stripe wire supposed to go to?
  • I've now spent 6mo trying to get this to work and my car runs worse.
  • My tuner/installer took my money and now won't return my calls.
  • I took the car somewhere else and they said the other installed screwed everything up and they have to start over again.
  • My towing bill now exceeds my gas and insurance bill.
  • Everything seems like it might be working but the tuner needs a base map to start tuning from. No one else has ever done this before so they need to know where to start.
  • They got the base map working but the car stalls all the time and won't hold an idle. If I two foot it I can drive it around. It seems to run pretty good except it backfires occasionally.
  • I raced some dude in a Peugeot and boy was he surprised!
  • Now my engine is knocking and I think I just want to get rid of this thing. Everybody around here told me in the beginning that I was crazy to mod an SC. I should have just learned how to use the QH in the first place.

This is mostly a true story except the names and places have been changed to protect the innocent.
 
Last edited:
No reason to be scared of qh! Its a bit scary at first but as i ask questions look through other people's issues and got into it and started playing with it I have to say its not that bad at all! I m sure my car is not tuned nearly as top notch as Dave could tune it but its 10 million times better than no tune my afrs are safe and I have the ultimate diagnostic tool (qh) plus the fact that I can change stuff with future mods! Qh is by far the most important thing to buy for a non stock Sc!
 
Dave, that is so spot on!!

A MAF based system is much easier to tune once the curve is calibrated. Even better is you don't need a complete retune when making changes unless they are drastic.

SD is more common, but that does not mean better or easier like you say :)

The problem with tuners not hooking things up and refusing to make it right is because they are not real tuners. Once the situation is beyond basic, they run. Unfortunately there are more "tuners" than tuners as you know!
 
My post was merely an avenue to make his tuner happy since no one there will mess with QH. I suggested OBD2 because it is a global system that can be tuned by almost anyone and because there are many more aftermarket tuners/options for that system and he could avoid the chaos of an aftermarket system. It still leaves the problem of whether or not they can tune the ford MAF.

Dave, do you write SCT tunes?
 
So could a road trip airfare plus expenses to Sweden be cheaper than an new System? Just asking
 
My post was merely an avenue to make his tuner happy since no one there will mess with QH. I suggested OBD2 because it is a global system that can be tuned by almost anyone and because there are many more aftermarket tuners/options for that system and he could avoid the chaos of an aftermarket system. It still leaves the problem of whether or not they can tune the ford MAF.

Dave, do you write SCT tunes?

OBDII tuning is not universal at all but I get your point. I think it's probably hard to find anyone in his country that can tune any (American) Ford. My point is that if someone can tune a Ford, they can use the QH. If they won't use the QH, then they probably aren't a competent Ford tuner anyway.

I am an SCT dealer/tuner and have been for about 10 years. I've also used a number of other formats over the years.
 
Back
Top