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davec73
10-11-2013, 10:38 PM
Hey guys I have had the same problem with my high speed fan not coming on since I put the engine in the car which really holds me back from driving it.
Here is what I have done to diagnose it:
1. tested the fan to ensure it works at the connector
2. Jumped the wire at the IRCM to ensure the wiring is good
3. Replaced the IRCM
4. Replaced ECT sensor
I do not have an IRCM tester so I don't know if the one I replaced the original with is any good but the low speed fan comes on as it should. When I get the car out on the highway when it is hot out and beat on it to were it goes above the heat range of the low speed fan settings the car starts to heat up and the high speed fan will not come on. The settings in be are on at 198 off at 190 and I moved the high speed settings to 254 to make the low speed stay on at all times. All I can think of is that I may have an issue with the EEC not commanding the fan to come on because it is bad. If anyone has an IRCM tester that I could borrow or buy please let me know as it would allow me to eliminate that and narrow it down to the EEC as the definite cause.

HwyStar
10-12-2013, 12:13 AM
Yeap. Replied to pm.

bumpskier45
10-12-2013, 10:07 PM
I don't know 100% for sure but the low speed is the only speed that comes on when you hit 198 degree's,the high speed should only come on when you run the a/c. If the fan is coming on at 198 and shutting off at about 190 that is exactly how they run from the factory,if you want to see it run cooler I would get a 180 degree tstat and the tune for it from dave dalke.

davec73
10-12-2013, 10:18 PM
I don't know 100% for sure but the low speed is the only speed that comes on when you hit 198 degree's,the high speed should only come on when you run the a/c. If the fan is coming on at 198 and shutting off at about 190 that is exactly how they run from the factory,if you want to see it run cooler I would get a 180 degree tstat and the tune for it from dave dalke.No the high speed fan is set to come on at 228 from the factory and shut off around 218 I think my car has qtr horse and that is what the high speed fan settings are set at. the low speed fan is what comes on with the ac not the high speed.

J dot Miller
10-13-2013, 10:25 AM
All you need is an Ohm meter and you can test your fan motor.

Turn off the car and carefully disconnect the fan motor pigtail. Check the resistance between the fan motor connections. Resistance should peg the scale between two the ends and the center wires. One end is for high speed while the other is for low speed.

davec73
10-13-2013, 11:25 AM
All you need is an Ohm meter and you can test your fan motor.

Turn off the car and carefully disconnect the fan motor pigtail. Check the resistance between the fan motor connections. Resistance should peg the scale between two the ends and the center wires. One end is for high speed while the other is for low speed.

It says in my first post that I have already completely tested the fan and it works replaced ircm an ect sensor. Also tested the wiring and fan function per the ford evtm. Hwystar sent me his ircm tester and I have another eec for it so we will see.

archerman0531
10-13-2013, 01:57 PM
I know you said you put in a new ECT. But wouldn't it be possible that it is out of limits enough for it to barley kick the low speed fan on, and it never get high enough to kick the high speed fan on? I've gotten bad ones brand new before, it's just a thought I had.

Also, I hate to ask the obvious, but you did replace the ECT for the fan and not the gauge correct?

davec73
10-13-2013, 07:01 PM
I know you said you put in a new ECT. But wouldn't it be possible that it is out of limits enough for it to barley kick the low speed fan on, and it never get high enough to kick the high speed fan on? I've gotten bad ones brand new before, it's just a thought I had.

Also, I hate to ask the obvious, but you did replace the ECT for the fan and not the gauge correct?

The low speed fan works perfect guys. The problem occurs when I get on the car and drive it hard. If the car gets above the temp where the low speed fans cant kick on anymore the high speed will not come on. However I have verified through the ircm wiring by jumping the relay bk/o to br/o that the high speed fan works and the wiring is good. I have also replaced the ect sensor. SOOOOOOOO if the ircms check out to be good the only other culprit that could cause this is the EEC correct?

archerman0531
10-13-2013, 07:06 PM
I understand that your fan works perfect, but I still think you could have a slightly out of range ECT and not being able to kick the high speed on.
But yes, if all wiring is good and the high speed does work and the IRCM test good, that yes, the only thing that controls that would be ECM.

davec73
10-13-2013, 07:12 PM
I understand that your fan works perfect, but I still think you could have a slightly out of range ECT and not being able to kick the high speed on.
But yes, if all wiring is good and the high speed does work and the IRCM test good, that yes, the only thing that controls that would be ECM.

Well ive put an aftermarket ect sensor in it when I rebuilt the motor but I just replaced it with a motorcraft. I have another EEC to put in it as well so hopefully fingers crossed one of the two fixes it.

archerman0531
10-13-2013, 07:24 PM
Well ive put an aftermarket ect sensor in it when I rebuilt the motor but I just replaced it with a motorcraft. I have another EEC to put in it as well so hopefully fingers crossed one of the two fixes it.



Hopefully that fixes it. I really can't think of anything else it could be.

racecougar
10-13-2013, 07:39 PM
First off, the fans should not operate while the car is at highway speeds. Secondly, you said in the first post that you've moved the high speed fan settings up to 254*. You'll need to lower them to the desired on/off temps.

davec73
10-13-2013, 08:20 PM
First off, the fans should not operate while the car is at highway speeds. Secondly, you said in the first post that you've moved the high speed fan settings up to 254*. You'll need to lower them to the desired on/off temps.

Yeah I know they wont work at highway speeds unless the ac is on, the low speed fan kicks on. It tends to overheat after ive been on it and slow down below 43 when the high speed fan should kick on Rod. I have the temp settings back to 198 on 190 0ff and 188 on 178 off right now and I am probably going to lower them even lower so I can see the high speed fan cycles.

J dot Miller
10-13-2013, 08:53 PM
Did you make other EEC program changes before the overheating issue? If so, what else did you do?

davec73
10-13-2013, 09:18 PM
Did you make other EEC program changes before the overheating issue? If so, what else did you do?
No the fan settings are the only thing that were changed. It has done this evrry since the new motor has been in if not before that. The eec is suspect to me because its a remanufactured unit. I have changed the ircm but don't know if either are good however the ircm tester should eliminate the ircm. If its bad I will probably take it to my local electronics shop and have the relay replaced.

KMT
10-13-2013, 09:29 PM
Sorry if I missed it - what year SC?

Did the new engine include any painted/pdr-coating accessory brackets?

archerman0531
10-13-2013, 09:41 PM
Did the new engine include any painted/pdr-coating accessory brackets?



Not to sound rude, but what would that matter. I know the DIS module has to make contact and you have to use heat sync and make sure it's grounded good, but isn't that just sending signals from the EEC for spark and timing? I could possibly see heat input, but that's thru the IRCM to the EEC correct?

davec73
10-13-2013, 11:58 PM
Yes everything has been painted and powdercoated and all places where any grounds should be have been ground down to supply sufficient ground. The car is a 92

KMT
10-14-2013, 12:17 AM
Not to sound rude, but what would that matter.

Grounds matter - a lot w/these cars…they can be pretty picky:) I doubt the ECT sensor on it's own would care. I let a new one fool me for months last year.

It sounds like the OP took pains to at least be aware of the need, tho. Might be the EEC in this case, perhaps. Even it has it's share of grounds it relies on :)

J dot Miller
10-14-2013, 07:20 PM
No the fan settings are the only thing that were changed. It has done this evrry since the new motor has been in if not before that...

The reason I asked this question is to see if something changed. Changing your EEC fan settings seems to be an BAND-AID® to me... It could be that your cooling system just may need an upgrade to match the new motor. Maybe the radiator is a tad old. SC radiators are small and do tend to gum up over time. :confused:

I would check my coolant temperature resistance just to be sure. Yea, I know you have a new one. But I never trust anything that was not tested. If the ICRM is good, the ECT resistance is correct and your high speed fan goes on and temperatures rise I would suspect my radiator, water pump and or thermostat as being weak.
:eek:

nmcbchief
10-14-2013, 08:27 PM
New Griffen radiator along with thermostat and water pump. I let him try my spare eec so we will see what that does.

davec73
10-14-2013, 08:31 PM
New eec is in just waiting for the ircm tester

archerman0531
10-15-2013, 12:35 AM
New eec is in just waiting for the ircm tester



So it didn't fix the issue? Or you haven't been able to check yet?

davec73
10-15-2013, 12:43 AM
So it didn't fix the issue? Or you haven't been able to check yet?

Tune is a bit wack right now and I havnt received the ircm tester yet. Before I bother going in to change the fan settings to see if they cycle at a lower temp I am going to test the IRCM to verify that it is good. FWIW everything on this car is new except the body. All cooling system components are new, all the grounds are good and the system is completely bled of air. A friend of mine put a different eec in his and it had the identical issue I am having and it fixed his. I just don't want to assume that is what is wrong. issues like this have to be worked out if I am going to drive the car though.

HwyStar
10-15-2013, 10:49 PM
Sound frustrated. I know the feeling. Seems like every time I drive my car I come back with a list of things I need to fix.

davec73
10-15-2013, 10:58 PM
Sound frustrated. I know the feeling. Seems like every time I drive my car I come back with a list of things I need to fix.

I have to get the normal every day little issues like this ironed out so I feel comfortable driving it. I just want to be thorough and get all the bugs out before I move to the auto rotor and nitrous.

DrFishbone
10-16-2013, 12:20 PM
Hey Dave, couple of questions:

1) are you reading ECT temps with BE/QH or looking at a gauge? BE/QH readings will guarantee your EEC is seeing high enough temps to turn on the high-speed fan.

2) have you done the code pulling process? It will test low and high speed fan function automatically, AND all the wiring in-between (as far as I know)

If the high speed fan comes on during the test, it will prove your parts are okay. If not, keep looking. :) I don't believe a malfunctioning fan or IRCM always throws a CEL, if ever.

If you hear both fan speeds turn on in the test, check all of your fan settings in BE to make sure you didn't fat-finger any non-obvious settings that might inhibit its operation.

DrFishbone
10-16-2013, 12:24 PM
Not to get off-topic, but I'll say it again here. BE/QH is not only AWESOME for the tuner, but is the single best all-around diagnostic tool that is available for the SC. In my opinion, if you plan to keep your SC and EVER modify it, the QH should be your first mod.

davec73
10-16-2013, 02:56 PM
Hey Dave, couple of questions:

1) are you reading ECT temps with BE/QH or looking at a gauge? BE/QH readings will guarantee your EEC is seeing high enough temps to turn on the high-speed fan.

2) have you done the code pulling process? It will test low and high speed fan function automatically, AND all the wiring in-between (as far as I know)

If the high speed fan comes on during the test, it will prove your parts are okay. If not, keep looking. :) I don't believe a malfunctioning fan or IRCM always throws a CEL, if ever.

If you hear both fan speeds turn on in the test, check all of your fan settings in BE to make sure you didn't fat-finger any non-obvious settings that might inhibit its operation.
I don't know how to perform the tests could you give me a call at 618 203 4435 and help me with it?

90coug
10-16-2013, 03:49 PM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/izepyck/Supercoupe%20parts/Helpful%20Pictures/wmdlc-eeciv.jpg (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/izepyck/media/Supercoupe%20parts/Helpful%20Pictures/wmdlc-eeciv.jpg.html)

Take E and 1 with a paperclip, turn the ignition to ON and then listen to your fans.

DrFishbone
10-16-2013, 04:03 PM
I don't know how to perform the tests could you give me a call at 618 203 4435 and help me with it?

The KOEO (?) test? Using a code scanner / paperclip method? You've gotta know what I'm talking about! :D:p

If you are "pulling codes" because of a CEL, the fan low/high speed test is part of that same process. You'll hear relays clicking and the fans come on before the pooter spits out any codes.

Have you been drinking? :p Has J.Royer hacked your account?!

davec73
10-16-2013, 04:23 PM
I have no idea how to do that old school crap and I don't have an obd1 scan tool. I have an ircm tester coming to test the ircms I have

90coug
10-16-2013, 06:21 PM
You don't know how to do that old school crap??? Really? Even after I posted the instructions in my last post?




I have no idea how to do that old school crap and I don't have an obd1 scan tool. I have an ircm tester coming to test the ircms I have

davec73
10-16-2013, 07:26 PM
You don't know how to do that old school crap??? Really? Even after I posted the instructions in my last post?

Somehow I missed it but I will def go out and try that. Does it make the low come on and then the high?

racecougar
10-16-2013, 07:40 PM
Does it make the low come on and then the high?

Yep. You should hear both speeds cycle, along with a few relays clicking closed/open.

davec73
10-16-2013, 07:41 PM
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/izepyck/Supercoupe%20parts/Helpful%20Pictures/wmdlc-eeciv.jpg (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/izepyck/media/Supercoupe%20parts/Helpful%20Pictures/wmdlc-eeciv.jpg.html)

Take E and 1 with a paperclip, turn the ignition to ON and then listen to your fans.

I performed this test and you can here the first relay click low speed comes on and then the second relay clicks and the fan picks up speed which I assume is the high speed fan. I replaced the eec with a newer non reman unit the other day but I have been waiting for the ircm tester to get here so I can test it before driving the car. I think there is also a relay or something in the ircm that commands the high and low speed fan but I assume it has to be working if the test worked right?

racecougar
10-16-2013, 07:43 PM
Sounds like it's all operational then.

HwyStar
10-16-2013, 07:52 PM
When the last IRCM crapped out on me, you could hear the relay click, but the fan wouldn't come on. Tap the IRCM and it would come on. Drove the car out to Richmond yesterday and back, not a problem with the crusty old IRCM I replaced the reman one with.

davec73
10-16-2013, 08:02 PM
Yep. You should hear both speeds cycle, along with a few relays clicking closed/open.Well hopefully I found the problem, I thought the eec was responsible with all of the other tests I performed passing and this one kind of confirms it. Now Iam just waiting for an adjusted tune to come back and I hope to drive it again Friday.

DrFishbone
10-16-2013, 11:44 PM
Well hopefully I found the problem, I thought the eec was responsible with all of the other tests I performed passing and this one kind of confirms it. Now Iam just waiting for an adjusted tune to come back and I hope to drive it again Friday.

Post a screen shot of BE with the fan settings shown.

davec73
10-17-2013, 12:09 AM
here ya go

DrFishbone
10-17-2013, 01:24 AM
Why do you think the high speed fan isn't coming on at lower speeds? Are you assuming that it isn't because your temperatures aren't dropping, or because you can't hear it when parked?

The 89 variables are a little different, but the settings in BE look to me like they should work.

DrFishbone
10-17-2013, 01:27 AM
Also, max vehicle speed for high-speed fan is 40mph (not 43mph) - not sure if that might be why you're not seeing/hearing the high speed.

decipha
10-17-2013, 01:43 AM
High speed max vehicle speed is only for grade load so no worries

you sure you didn't change something else in the tune to cause this?

pm me your current tune on the efidynotuning forum and ill take a look at it, its probably something simple

Jacob_Royer
10-17-2013, 07:40 AM
The KOEO (?) test? Using a code scanner / paperclip method? You've gotta know what I'm talking about! :D:p

If you are "pulling codes" because of a CEL, the fan low/high speed test is part of that same process. You'll hear relays clicking and the fans come on before the pooter spits out any codes.

Have you been drinking? :p Has J.Royer hacked your account?!

Uhh ohh somone is being an ASKhole.... lol

Seriously get on ebay and buy an old obd1 ford scan tool they are like 15$ I've had one since the begining of time ! Way easier than the paperclip and you get a nice little book with it.

davec73
10-17-2013, 08:19 AM
When you get over a certain temp were the low speed would normally keep it cool the fan does not come on

S_Mazza
10-17-2013, 12:52 PM
I keep hearing about this issue with failing analog-digital converters on the ECT / ACT temperature sensing circuit on some of the older EECs. It's possible that could be the source of your troubles.

Do you have datalogs indicating the ECT that you can compare to your visual reading of the gauge while driving? Just to make sure that the EEC knows the engine is getting warm?

XR7 Dave
10-17-2013, 01:32 PM
I keep hearing about this issue with failing analog-digital converters on the ECT / ACT temperature sensing circuit on some of the older EECs. It's possible that could be the source of your troubles.

Do you have datalogs indicating the ECT that you can compare to your visual reading of the gauge while driving? Just to make sure that the EEC knows the engine is getting warm?

I keep hearing about these mysterious EEC failures also. Only thing is I've never encountered one in the 100's of SC's I've worked with over the past 10+ years. I am very confident that most of the time the EEC is blamed for other related or coincidental problems. I just tested an EEC for another member who said "3 different shops said the EEC was bad" and of course the EEC works fine in my car.

The problem is usually misdiagnosis and the old "throw parts and money at it until the problem goes away" syndrome.

David's problems started with I think bad wiring, maybe a bad fan, some air pockets in the motor, a defective QH, and finally a cooling system that is overworked largely due to reduced airflow from the massive FMIC he has. At this point he doesn't know for sure if the high speed fan is coming on or what temp it is coming on at and doesn't trust the car, the cooling system, BE, the QH, or the EEC.

Truth is, the EEC is probably the most reliable component in the entire chain.

DrFishbone
10-17-2013, 01:46 PM
To take the test a step further (since the high-speed works in the KOEO test)...change the parameters such that it will come on (AFTER THE LOW SPEED FAN) at a much lower temperature...that way you can check everything out while the car is idling.

As far as I know, the fan controls use very simple logic. You've already verified that the hardware works, so now verify the tune+hardware work.

Unless I'm missing something, I really think that your high speed fan IS working, but you're not convinced (like Dave alluded to), since it doesn't cool the car down. MANY MANY people have temperature problems with the stock, mildly, moderately, and extremely modified SC's with keeping the ECT's down in the summer - especially with a big front mount and A/C.

davec73
10-17-2013, 08:14 PM
I keep hearing about these mysterious EEC failures also. Only thing is I've never encountered one in the 100's of SC's I've worked with over the past 10+ years. I am very confident that most of the time the EEC is blamed for other related or coincidental problems. I just tested an EEC for another member who said "3 different shops said the EEC was bad" and of course the EEC works fine in my car.

The problem is usually misdiagnosis and the old "throw parts and money at it until the problem goes away" syndrome.

David's problems started with I think bad wiring, maybe a bad fan, some air pockets in the motor, a defective QH, and finally a cooling system that is overworked largely due to reduced airflow from the massive FMIC he has. At this point he doesn't know for sure if the high speed fan is coming on or what temp it is coming on at and doesn't trust the car, the cooling system, BE, the QH, or the EEC.

Truth is, the EEC is probably the most reliable component in the entire chain.
I have thought about the innercooler and the fact that I need to take the front bumper back off and make room for the pusher ffans I bought for it a long time ago. I have tested all of the wiring and it checks out. Before I added the new eec the fan powered up by jumping around the high speed fan wiring that goes in and out of the eec and at the fan with a 12 volt source. I don't know if the koeo test worked with the other eec on it but it definitely works now. That said the only other component I have changed was the ect sensor so unless it was causing the problem then it had to be the eec. After driving my car and getting it up to temp on a hot day you could see the low speed fan come on with qtr horse when it got to high limit going down the highway but the hotter it got outside and the more load that was put on the motor if it ever got above the temp that the low speed fan kicked on at the heat would climb and keep climbing to 230 or so and I would always pull over and shut it of. After a few times of being stranded for hours I am fed up and don't trust it to drive it long distances until I get it fixed. If there is any car out there that would have had the eec problem im now convinced it would have been mine, I think my car was made on a Friday and everyone at ford had somewhere to get to:D

Jacob_Royer
10-17-2013, 08:41 PM
I have thought about the innercooler and the fact that I need to take the front bumper back off and make room for the pusher ffans I bought for it a long time ago. I have tested all of the wiring and it checks out. Before I added the new eec the fan powered up by jumping around the high speed fan wiring that goes in and out of the eec and at the fan with a 12 volt source. I don't know if the koeo test worked with the other eec on it but it definitely works now. That said the only other component I have changed was the ect sensor so unless it was causing the problem then it had to be the eec. After driving my car and getting it up to temp on a hot day you could see the low speed fan come on with qtr horse when it got to high limit going down the highway but the hotter it got outside and the more load that was put on the motor if it ever got above the temp that the low speed fan kicked on at the heat would climb and keep climbing to 230 or so and I would always pull over and shut it of. After a few times of being stranded for hours I am fed up and don't trust it to drive it long distances until I get it fixed. If there is any car out there that would have had the eec problem im now convinced it would have been mine, I think my car was made on a Friday and everyone at ford had somewhere to get to:D

I chased an overheating problem for YEARS and it sucks.. One simple problem turned into multiple problems by swapping parts and missdiagnosing the original problem i had in the first place, when all said and done i still thought i had a problem when i didnt have a problem becuase the crap factory gauge and crap aftermarket gauge i intalled to try to figure it all out in the first place.

First i have to recomend replacing EVERY sensor on the engine with new stuff ECT, ACT o2's (I know you already did them) I did this and now i dont give a crap what the guages say because i KNOW that what BE tells me is going on is true. In this weather expecially youre high speed fan shouldnt even kick on. I rarely see my low speed fan on right now and i have a stock sized el cheapo radiator express alluminum radiator. I see an average of 180/190 on a day 70/80f and 80/100f outside running the air the most i see is 206f i USED to see 230f aveage NOT running the AC. Having the fan kicking on and off when its supposed to BEFORE the radiator gets heat soaked is a must. I have to ask a stupid question. I know you have Stig heads did you have them pressure checked before youre new engine was put together? When it comes to supercoupes i've learned to Assume nothing!

davec73
10-17-2013, 08:56 PM
I just tested all three ircms I have with the rotunda ircm tester and they are all good

davec73
10-17-2013, 08:58 PM
I chased an overheating problem for YEARS and it sucks.. One simple problem turned into multiple problems by swapping parts and missdiagnosing the original problem i had in the first place, when all said and done i still thought i had a problem when i didnt have a problem becuase the crap factory gauge and crap aftermarket gauge i intalled to try to figure it all out in the first place.

First i have to recomend replacing EVERY sensor on the engine with new stuff ECT, ACT o2's (I know you already did them) I did this and now i dont give a crap what the guages say because i KNOW that what BE tells me is going on is true. In this weather expecially youre high speed fan shouldnt even kick on. I rarely see my low speed fan on right now and i have a stock sized el cheapo radiator express alluminum radiator. I see an average of 180/190 on a day 70/80f and 80/100f outside running the air the most i see is 206f i USED to see 230f aveage NOT running the AC. Having the fan kicking on and off when its supposed to BEFORE the radiator gets heat soaked is a must. I have to ask a stupid question. I know you have Stig heads did you have them pressure checked before youre new engine was put together? When it comes to supercoupes i've learned to Assume nothing!Everything has been replaced I am driving it tomorrow so we shall see what happens

HwyStar
10-17-2013, 09:23 PM
One thing that plagued me for a bit was burping the coolant system. If I didnt have the overflow bottle 1/4 full, or at least something in it, I would overheat the car exactly as you described. The first time I took it down the road I over heated it bad. I had the car running for about 2 hrs at idle in the garage while I was looking things over, and check the passive restraint stuff, it did just fine.

Took it out, and the temp would go up slightly, keep going up. Then, the IRCM crapped out which agrevated the situation since I couldnt cool down at idle. I popped the hood, cracked open the high point vent, burped a little air, filled the overflow a little. After that, so long as I was on the road moving I was ok. I think the position the radiator is in after putting the fmic in for some reason makes it easier to air bind. Probly has to do with the radiator being slightly lower elevation. Must have coolant in overflow with new radiator cap! I have never gone through so many radiator caps as I have on these cars...Mark VIIIs too.

That IRCM tester is kind of anti-climactic, isnt it? Clunk, pass/fail.

davec73
10-17-2013, 09:39 PM
One thing that plagued me for a bit was burping the coolant system. If I didnt have the overflow bottle 1/4 full, or at least something in it, I would overheat the car exactly as you described. The first time I took it down the road I over heated it bad. I had the car running for about 2 hrs at idle in the garage while I was looking things over, and check the passive restraint stuff, it did just fine.

Took it out, and the temp would go up slightly, keep going up. Then, the IRCM crapped out which agrevated the situation since I couldnt cool down at idle. I popped the hood, cracked open the high point vent, burped a little air, filled the overflow a little. After that, so long as I was on the road moving I was ok. I think the position the radiator is in after putting the fmic in for some reason makes it easier to air bind. Probly has to do with the radiator being slightly lower elevation. Must have coolant in overflow with new radiator cap! I have never gone through so many radiator caps as I have on these cars...Mark VIIIs too.

That IRCM tester is kind of anti-climactic, isnt it? Clunk, pass/fail.

Yeah it is really fast makes you wonder but if it was bad it would find something I guess. I have burped and burped AND burped my car im pretty sure all the air is out lol

DrFishbone
10-18-2013, 09:06 AM
I chased an overheating problem for YEARS and it sucks.. One simple problem turned into multiple problems by swapping parts and missdiagnosing the original problem i had in the first place, when all said and done i still thought i had a problem when i didnt have a problem becuase the crap factory gauge and crap aftermarket gauge i intalled to try to figure it all out in the first place.

First i have to recomend replacing EVERY sensor on the engine with new stuff ECT, ACT o2's (I know you already did them) I did this and now i dont give a crap what the guages say because i KNOW that what BE tells me is going on is true. In this weather expecially youre high speed fan shouldnt even kick on. I rarely see my low speed fan on right now and i have a stock sized el cheapo radiator express alluminum radiator. I see an average of 180/190 on a day 70/80f and 80/100f outside running the air the most i see is 206f i USED to see 230f aveage NOT running the AC. Having the fan kicking on and off when its supposed to BEFORE the radiator gets heat soaked is a must. I have to ask a stupid question. I know you have Stig heads did you have them pressure checked before youre new engine was put together? When it comes to supercoupes i've learned to Assume nothing!

Don't forget Jacob, you had a warped head too!













Oh yeah, and so did the car. :p

davec73
10-18-2013, 10:02 AM
Don't forget Jacob, you had a warped hea












Oh yeah, and so did the car. :p
Wikapedias definition of warped is Jacob royer lol

Micahdogg
10-18-2013, 12:02 PM
I recall David Neibert having an overheating issue that ended up being a problem with the griffen radiator. I'm not positive, but I think a blown headgasket + pressurized coolant caused the radiator to slightly baloon and resulted in inadequate cooling. I only mention this because I would never have thought a radiator could go bad like that - and you have the same one he had.

David Neibert
10-18-2013, 01:06 PM
I recall David Neibert having an overheating issue that ended up being a problem with the griffen radiator. I'm not positive, but I think a blown headgasket + pressurized coolant caused the radiator to slightly baloon and resulted in inadequate cooling. I only mention this because I would never have thought a radiator could go bad like that - and you have the same one he had.

True..normally if you have a damaged radiator from being over pressurized when blowing head gaskets, the upper tank is deformed/ballooned but mine looked fine. Dave Dalke found it by accident on mine while fabricating a new shroud, that he couldn't see very much if any light through a large portion of the core. The coolant tubes were pooched out and crushed the air cooling fins flat between the rows of coolant tubes, resulting in very little air flow through a large portion of the core.

David

KMT
10-18-2013, 01:14 PM
The coolant tubes were pooched out and crushed the air cooling fins flat between the rows of coolant tubes, resulting in very little air flow through a large portion of the core.

David

A quick scan with an IR temp gun would help debug that particular issue…

David Neibert
10-18-2013, 01:57 PM
A quick scan with an IR temp gun would help debug that particular issue…


I've got one of those and I scanned the crap out of this car. While sitting there idling in my garage it never overheated and the temp drop from top to bottom of radiator was normal and the cooling fans were cycling on and off. Drive it about 5 miles and temps would slowly start creeping up and keep going to about 230-240. When scanning it hot, everything was heat soaked so you couldn't get any useful info.

I ended up upgrading pretty much every component of the cooling system and even sealed the MP FMIC core to the surrounding sheet metal to force more air into the raidator. After the new radiator was installed, it runs so cool that the temp gauge needle seldom reaches the N which is around 190 on my car.

David

KMT
10-18-2013, 03:06 PM
everything was heat soaked

The lack of temp offset from top tank, to core, to bottom tank would be enough that if ballooning was the issue, it would be obvious w/the gun, I'd think. Like the time I had a core freeze solid at highway speeds in the winter…everything else was o'heated and coolant flow was blocked - I thought the fan belt was slipping. Had to block airflow to deal with that one. If I'd had a temp gun, it would have been easy to spot. In your case you simply confirmed that everything was soaked - still useful info. I take data points when the cooling system is working properly, and then I can quickly look for changes with the gun if I have reason to suspect a malfunction. Note that if you're trying to test shiny/silver/reflective surfaces, a small piece of black electrical tape on those locations can help provide a more accurate reading.

It's not like there is a chart you can read or a light that flashes to pinpoint the issue - it's about having data points that help form conclusions. It's just another tool to help the human fix things without having to jack up the radiator cap and park another car under it - hate it when that happens :)

David Neibert
10-18-2013, 03:39 PM
The lack of temp offset from top tank, to core, to bottom tank would be enough that if ballooning was the issue, it would be obvious w/the gun, I'd think. Like the time I had a core freeze solid at highway speeds in the winter…everything else was o'heated and coolant flow was blocked - I thought the fan belt was slipping. Had to block airflow to deal with that one. If I'd had a temp gun, it would have been easy to spot. In your case you simply confirmed that everything was soaked - still useful info. I take data points when the cooling system is working properly, and then I can quickly look for changes with the gun if I have reason to suspect a malfunction.

It's not like there is a chart you can read or a light that flashes to pinpoint the issue - it's about having data points that help form conclusions. It's just another tool to help the human fix things without having to jack up the radiator cap and park another car under it - hate it when that happens :)

The fact that this was happening on a brand new motor of increased displacement, with a different cam spec, different heads and a brand new starter tune, didn't make the diagnosis any easier. For that reason there were also no previous data points to reference.

I did have a scanner that could read numerous sensors while driving the car and that was helpful to confirm that air fuel ratio and ignition timing were not the cause, and it also showed engine temps from the ECT sensor and indicated when fan was running. Unfortunately none of that info led to a solution, and in this case finding the real problem was just a matter of luck.

Since coolant flow was not obstructed through the core I doubt the temp readings would have been very useful, and I'm not sure if it would even have been possible to get a good reading with the fan and shroud mounted to the radiator.

David

KMT
10-18-2013, 03:46 PM
Since coolant flow was not obstructed through the core I doubt the temp readings would have been very useful,
David

Perhaps - I was talking about a ballooned core w/no offset top-to-bottom originally, where you can also use the shroud as a reference if you know what you're doing, so…

In any case, temps can be measured in many different ways, from digital probes to finger tip (pain threshold is 140º F, BTW). I'd encourage owners to use whatever method works for them, of course.

davec73
10-18-2013, 03:58 PM
Mine has never had an engine failure of any kind with this new radiator on my fans seem to be cycling fine now.

KMT
10-18-2013, 04:05 PM
...my fans seem to be cycling fine now.

That's good news - so it was basically down to the EEC, then?

David Neibert
10-18-2013, 04:06 PM
Perhaps - I was talking about a ballooned core w/no offset top-to-bottom originally, where you can also use the shroud as a reference if you know what you're doing, so…

In any case, temps can be measured in many different ways, from digital probes to finger tip (pain threshold is 140º F, BTW). I'd encourage owners to use whatever method works for them, of course.

Rather than continue to clutter Dave's thread, I'll just post a link detailing a rather exhaustive list of things that were considered and/or tested in an effort to correct my overheating issue.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106802&highlight=4.2+motor

David

PS: Dave..there are many things in this thread that may be applicable to you, so you might want to give it a quick read.

davec73
10-18-2013, 05:31 PM
That's good news - so it was basically down to the EEC, then?

Well I don't know if its completely cured because my tune is all wacked I'm trying to get the car to go open loop at idle so I can drive it without fouling the plugs

davec73
10-21-2013, 08:40 PM
I think its fixed guys. New ect sensor and eec and both fans cycle as they should and keep the car cool. I still have to cut the bumper core support so I can fit the fans in front of the inner cooler to help things a bit more and I will probably add a chin spoiler as well for good measure.

David Neibert
10-21-2013, 09:31 PM
Dave,

Are you coming out to Gateway Wenesday night ? Details are in the Midwest forum.

David

davec73
10-21-2013, 09:45 PM
Dave,

Are you coming out to Gateway Wenesday night ? Details are in the Midwest forum.

David

I wish I will be in Indiana wed working and my car is coming apart right after that for the autorotor and all the other stuff I am adding this winter. Best of luck to you guys! The good news is the majority of the bugs are worked out of my car and the transition to the new blowrr and other mods should be a matter of tweaking the tune.

DrFishbone
10-22-2013, 09:01 AM
Was the ECT sensor not reading properly in the datalogs?

BLOWN38
10-22-2013, 10:47 AM
Was the ECT sensor not reading properly in the datalogs?

It was reading high at the shootout. 230*