Remote M90

thE_iyE

Registered User
I blew the head gaskets in my '00 mustang v6. It has home ported split-port heads and lower intake. I've also taken the intake from a windstar van which is a higher-flow than stock and takes air from the front.
I have all the front-end parts of a '90 SCoup and can swap-back to single-port. I'm at a cross-roads, though. Here: http://www.magnumpowers.com/thunder_power_recepies.php I found some very enlightening information about the m90 and would like to try my hand at making about 400rwhp.
With the stage-set, what I want to know is which single-port heads are the best and how how to get them as volumetrically efficient as the split-ports so as I'm not losing anything by switching-back. The other question is what are the losses to remote-mounting it? If I keep my intake as-is and remote the charger in-place of the A/C, what would be the loss? Is there a challenge I'm not considering? Overall, if I can get the single-port heads to perform better and if they are a better-build than my split-ports, I have no problem with swapping, but is it necessary, or even is it really that-much easier?
 
Get some SC heads and cam from xr7dave, MPX blower from MP and supporting mods, inj,tb,maf,tune,25%OD and some coated rotors from MP and you will be very close to 400rwhp.
aside from that you will have a hard time.
Or just get a whipple 2.3L and get more.........that's custom stuff
MPX and the other stuff is bolt on's
 
I'm not an expert on which heads r the best, but if you have the chops to remote mount the blower, I can't see any reason to go away from the split ports if you have time and effort in making them flow well already. I don't know what heads r the best, or can b improved the most. I do know the "pancake" intake sucks no matter what you do to it. If you can fab the stuff required to mount the blower where the AC was, and get the drive ratios correct, with a FMIC, I would think the intake/heads you now have would work well. As superdad said, from that point it is the common standard bolt-ons to get where you want to go. I think he's also right, if you r custom mounting the blower anyway a whipple, or TVS would be a great jump ahead, if you got the $$$ (as always :rolleyes:)

Adam
 
I suppose that answers my question about doing the single-port swap. I didn't think about the crappy lower.
The stickler in FI set-ups tend to be the volumetric efficiency. I already have 1:1.73 roller rockers up from the stock 1:1.5, with the more aggressive SC cam which is supposedly supposed to bind my springs. Guess I'm lucky. As said, I already home-ported the lower and heads. The flow is great. If I port the m90 up, use a TB from a GT (70mm), run a air-liquid IC and meth injection for pulling with 25% pulleys, I think I could get-away with it. I can spend as much making the mpx90 run 400rwhp on a SC as buying a whipple, and that's certain, but if I'm going to have to fork that kind of money for that goal, I'll just give-up on the torque-friendly positive displacements and go for a turbo set-up. I could settle for 400 @crank and somewhere around 350 to the wheels, especially with the torque given by these blowers.
The bottom-line question is though, using a very high volumetric efficient intake and doing minor modifications to a '90 m90, can I achieve those kinds of numbers on split-port heads with a low-loss air-water IC and meth?
 
The only downside to remote-mounting the M90 is you will have more fab work involved. One real nice thing about this blower is that it can be mounted right-side up, upside down, sideways, on an angle, pretty much any way you need to position it. Given that you already have the windstar intake and ported split-port heads, I would make a mount to bolt the M90 where the A/C used to be, use a stock or Magnum Powers inlet for an SC, then gut the windstar throttle body so you can attach the outlet of an intercooler tube to it, and run a front-mount air-to-air IC, and then the only difficult plumbing is you have to run a vacuum actuated bypass from the outlet of the IC to the inlet of the blower.
 
The crappy lower pancake style single port intake, still works well enough to make nearly 500 rwhp through a non locking AOD, so it's not quite as bad as you guys may think it is.

David
 
use a stock or Magnum Powers inlet for an SC
What's special about the magnum powers inlet? How much and where? I looked (not hard) on their site, but didn't find anything.
run a front-mount air-to-air IC
Why air-to-air and not water-to-air? Won't the loss be less, cooling higher, and plumbing easier in an water-to-air?
the only difficult plumbing is you have to run a vacuum actuated bypass from the outlet of the IC to the inlet of the blower.
You mean like a BoV, or in the other direction like the one found in the stock inlet for the charger?
The crappy lower pancake style single port intake, still works well enough to make nearly 500 rwhp through a non locking AOD, so it's not quite as bad as you guys may think it is.
If you have to spend $5k to get 500hp out of that system using that lower intake, that intake sucks.

Thanks for the help guys.
 
Not to get into a debate about it but I would not consider a m90 for a new edge mustang. I understand why the guys with SuperCoupes want to keep them SuperCoupes. You already said you don't want to spend the coin needed to make 400hp but I don't see any way around it. Mustang motor will not support that power with a blower. Turbo you might get by with it for a little while if it doesn't detonate. If instant tq is the goal I can tell you a turbo that will spool instant and support more power than you can use on the street.

Also don't believe everything you read about single port heads. with the right combo of parts they are proven to make power. If I could do it again I would use these heads for my build vs split port for the simple fact they work better for methanol injection.
 
Not to get into a debate about it but I would not consider a m90 for a new edge mustang. I understand why the guys with SuperCoupes want to keep them SuperCoupes. You already said you don't want to spend the coin needed to make 400hp but I don't see any way around it. Mustang motor will not support that power with a blower. Turbo you might get by with it for a little while if it doesn't detonate. If instant tq is the goal I can tell you a turbo that will spool instant and support more power than you can use on the street.

Also don't believe everything you read about single port heads. with the right combo of parts they are proven to make power. If I could do it again I would use these heads for my build vs split port for the simple fact they work better for methanol injection.

It's not a debate.

Spending coin is one thing, but I know of people making over 400hp with much less than $3k in their set-ups. The goal is to spend as little money as possible and get the fastest car from it. I picked-up the entire front-end of a SCoup with roller rockers and other goodies for $200. Kid needed cash, I saw the opportunity. The rockers themselves were worth the buck. I don't see a point in giving, for example, $900 to someone for fabbing a bracket like for the m112 to fit on split port heads that a little ingenuity can't fix.
With that purchase, I replaced the rotating assembly, meaning the compression ratio is lowered and the internals (apart from the pistons, of course) are forged.
With that said, I appreciate your concern for me wasting my time seeking the unacheivable. The question remains though, will improving the volumetric efficiency of the entire set-up get me the numbers I'm hoping for?
 
It's not a debate.

Spending coin is one thing, but I know of people making over 400hp with much less than $3k in their set-ups. The goal is to spend as little money as possible and get the fastest car from it. I picked-up the entire front-end of a SCoup with roller rockers and other goodies for $200. Kid needed cash, I saw the opportunity. The rockers themselves were worth the buck. I don't see a point in giving, for example, $900 to someone for fabbing a bracket like for the m112 to fit on split port heads that a little ingenuity can't fix.
With that purchase, I replaced the rotating assembly, meaning the compression ratio is lowered and the internals (apart from the pistons, of course) are forged.
With that said, I appreciate your concern for me wasting my time seeking the unacheivable. The question remains though, will improving the volumetric efficiency of the entire set-up get me the numbers I'm hoping for?

When I said debate I was referring to m90 vs other power adders. When I started typing I knew I was going to drop the T bomb lol.

There are things that can be done to improve efficiency. It is very possible to decrease manifold pressure and still increase mass flow. At the same time bsfc improves as pumping losses are reduced and the motor is more efficient.

Is your motor built to handle the power?
 
I suppose that answers my question about doing the single-port swap. I didn't think about the crappy lower.
The stickler in FI set-ups tend to be the volumetric efficiency. I already have 1:1.73 roller rockers up from the stock 1:1.5, with the more aggressive SC cam which is supposedly supposed to bind my springs. Guess I'm lucky. As said, I already home-ported the lower and heads. The flow is great. If I port the m90 up, use a TB from a GT (70mm), run a air-liquid IC and meth injection for pulling with 25% pulleys, I think I could get-away with it. I can spend as much making the mpx90 run 400rwhp on a SC as buying a whipple, and that's certain, but if I'm going to have to fork that kind of money for that goal, I'll just give-up on the torque-friendly positive displacements and go for a turbo set-up. I could settle for 400 @crank and somewhere around 350 to the wheels, especially with the torque given by these blowers.
The bottom-line question is though, using a very high volumetric efficient intake and doing minor modifications to a '90 m90, can I achieve those kinds of numbers on split-port heads with a low-loss air-water IC and meth?


Your going to be really disappointed in your quest for 400 rwhp with your ideas above. I wouldnt place any faith in the magnum powers recepies for HP. They are a joke. You can modify a 90s M90 anyway you want and it will make poor power. A MPX is far cheaper than a Whipple conversion, not even close price wise.
Your plans as I see them might get high 200 rwhp. 400 rwhp requires really big TB, plenum, MAF, moving the bigger air requires bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, a much bigger cam, big valve heads and good tuning. If you want to get big hp out of a 3.8 you will spend a lot of coin or you can get closer to that goal with a turbo.

Ken
 
My setup included an extra large inlet 95mm tb 80lb injectors .600 lift cam stegemier heads 1.8 Harland sharp roller rockers 4" cai with hpx slot maf huge air to air ic 30% od long tube headers 340lph fuel pump w -8an feed line ported mpx m90 with abradive coated rotors from mp. I had it tuned and the best it ever pulled was right at 370. fwiw I am currently upgrading to a 1.7 auto rotor to break the 400 hp mark.
 
Okay, well, it looks like I'll be saving the m90 for my jeep and going with something else. Thanks for the replies.
 
If you can build a 3.8 to 400RWHP and only spend $3k I'd like to know how and see the power band. Basiclly think of it this way figure what it will cost to get to 300hp N/A and then tack on the blower. Since you already have the bottom end and blower the cost to add the blower shouldn't be that much more (if you have the proper parts and/or can fabricate all your own stuff).

As for the M112 I believe that issue has been addressed that the 3.8 is too small to effectively/safely use one. Either too much boost on the top end or not much on the bottom end.
 
Sombody should post what they spent on a built engine if they have a breakdown including bolt ons. Nothing I myself posted would be accurate as I barter a lot and build a lot of my own stuff to keep the dollars low. What would be cool is if a well know engine builder put his own recipes out there for a 350 and 400 and 450 hp combination that work in the real world:D Except I know there are about a million combinations to that end:p

Ken
 
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