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thE_iyE
12-12-2013, 03:59 PM
I blew the head gaskets in my '00 mustang v6. It has home ported split-port heads and lower intake. I've also taken the intake from a windstar van which is a higher-flow than stock and takes air from the front.
I have all the front-end parts of a '90 SCoup and can swap-back to single-port. I'm at a cross-roads, though. Here: http://www.magnumpowers.com/thunder_power_recepies.php I found some very enlightening information about the m90 and would like to try my hand at making about 400rwhp.
With the stage-set, what I want to know is which single-port heads are the best and how how to get them as volumetrically efficient as the split-ports so as I'm not losing anything by switching-back. The other question is what are the losses to remote-mounting it? If I keep my intake as-is and remote the charger in-place of the A/C, what would be the loss? Is there a challenge I'm not considering? Overall, if I can get the single-port heads to perform better and if they are a better-build than my split-ports, I have no problem with swapping, but is it necessary, or even is it really that-much easier?

superdadsc
12-12-2013, 04:40 PM
Get some SC heads and cam from xr7dave, MPX blower from MP and supporting mods, inj,tb,maf,tune,25%OD and some coated rotors from MP and you will be very close to 400rwhp.
aside from that you will have a hard time.
Or just get a whipple 2.3L and get more.........that's custom stuff
MPX and the other stuff is bolt on's

aroot1
12-12-2013, 05:09 PM
I'm not an expert on which heads r the best, but if you have the chops to remote mount the blower, I can't see any reason to go away from the split ports if you have time and effort in making them flow well already. I don't know what heads r the best, or can b improved the most. I do know the "pancake" intake sucks no matter what you do to it. If you can fab the stuff required to mount the blower where the AC was, and get the drive ratios correct, with a FMIC, I would think the intake/heads you now have would work well. As superdad said, from that point it is the common standard bolt-ons to get where you want to go. I think he's also right, if you r custom mounting the blower anyway a whipple, or TVS would be a great jump ahead, if you got the $$$ (as always :rolleyes:)

Adam

thE_iyE
12-12-2013, 05:55 PM
I suppose that answers my question about doing the single-port swap. I didn't think about the crappy lower.
The stickler in FI set-ups tend to be the volumetric efficiency. I already have 1:1.73 roller rockers up from the stock 1:1.5, with the more aggressive SC cam which is supposedly supposed to bind my springs. Guess I'm lucky. As said, I already home-ported the lower and heads. The flow is great. If I port the m90 up, use a TB from a GT (70mm), run a air-liquid IC and meth injection for pulling with 25% pulleys, I think I could get-away with it. I can spend as much making the mpx90 run 400rwhp on a SC as buying a whipple, and that's certain, but if I'm going to have to fork that kind of money for that goal, I'll just give-up on the torque-friendly positive displacements and go for a turbo set-up. I could settle for 400 @crank and somewhere around 350 to the wheels, especially with the torque given by these blowers.
The bottom-line question is though, using a very high volumetric efficient intake and doing minor modifications to a '90 m90, can I achieve those kinds of numbers on split-port heads with a low-loss air-water IC and meth?

MadMikeyL
12-12-2013, 06:39 PM
The only downside to remote-mounting the M90 is you will have more fab work involved. One real nice thing about this blower is that it can be mounted right-side up, upside down, sideways, on an angle, pretty much any way you need to position it. Given that you already have the windstar intake and ported split-port heads, I would make a mount to bolt the M90 where the A/C used to be, use a stock or Magnum Powers inlet for an SC, then gut the windstar throttle body so you can attach the outlet of an intercooler tube to it, and run a front-mount air-to-air IC, and then the only difficult plumbing is you have to run a vacuum actuated bypass from the outlet of the IC to the inlet of the blower.

David Neibert
12-12-2013, 07:00 PM
The crappy lower pancake style single port intake, still works well enough to make nearly 500 rwhp through a non locking AOD, so it's not quite as bad as you guys may think it is.

David

thE_iyE
12-12-2013, 07:44 PM
use a stock or Magnum Powers inlet for an SC
What's special about the magnum powers inlet? How much and where? I looked (not hard) on their site, but didn't find anything.

run a front-mount air-to-air IC
Why air-to-air and not water-to-air? Won't the loss be less, cooling higher, and plumbing easier in an water-to-air?

the only difficult plumbing is you have to run a vacuum actuated bypass from the outlet of the IC to the inlet of the blower.
You mean like a BoV, or in the other direction like the one found in the stock inlet for the charger?

The crappy lower pancake style single port intake, still works well enough to make nearly 500 rwhp through a non locking AOD, so it's not quite as bad as you guys may think it is.
If you have to spend $5k to get 500hp out of that system using that lower intake, that intake sucks.

Thanks for the help guys.

JT's03
12-12-2013, 08:18 PM
Not to get into a debate about it but I would not consider a m90 for a new edge mustang. I understand why the guys with SuperCoupes want to keep them SuperCoupes. You already said you don't want to spend the coin needed to make 400hp but I don't see any way around it. Mustang motor will not support that power with a blower. Turbo you might get by with it for a little while if it doesn't detonate. If instant tq is the goal I can tell you a turbo that will spool instant and support more power than you can use on the street.

Also don't believe everything you read about single port heads. with the right combo of parts they are proven to make power. If I could do it again I would use these heads for my build vs split port for the simple fact they work better for methanol injection.

thE_iyE
12-12-2013, 08:30 PM
Not to get into a debate about it but I would not consider a m90 for a new edge mustang. I understand why the guys with SuperCoupes want to keep them SuperCoupes. You already said you don't want to spend the coin needed to make 400hp but I don't see any way around it. Mustang motor will not support that power with a blower. Turbo you might get by with it for a little while if it doesn't detonate. If instant tq is the goal I can tell you a turbo that will spool instant and support more power than you can use on the street.

Also don't believe everything you read about single port heads. with the right combo of parts they are proven to make power. If I could do it again I would use these heads for my build vs split port for the simple fact they work better for methanol injection.

It's not a debate.

Spending coin is one thing, but I know of people making over 400hp with much less than $3k in their set-ups. The goal is to spend as little money as possible and get the fastest car from it. I picked-up the entire front-end of a SCoup with roller rockers and other goodies for $200. Kid needed cash, I saw the opportunity. The rockers themselves were worth the buck. I don't see a point in giving, for example, $900 to someone for fabbing a bracket like for the m112 to fit on split port heads that a little ingenuity can't fix.
With that purchase, I replaced the rotating assembly, meaning the compression ratio is lowered and the internals (apart from the pistons, of course) are forged.
With that said, I appreciate your concern for me wasting my time seeking the unacheivable. The question remains though, will improving the volumetric efficiency of the entire set-up get me the numbers I'm hoping for?

JT's03
12-12-2013, 09:11 PM
It's not a debate.

Spending coin is one thing, but I know of people making over 400hp with much less than $3k in their set-ups. The goal is to spend as little money as possible and get the fastest car from it. I picked-up the entire front-end of a SCoup with roller rockers and other goodies for $200. Kid needed cash, I saw the opportunity. The rockers themselves were worth the buck. I don't see a point in giving, for example, $900 to someone for fabbing a bracket like for the m112 to fit on split port heads that a little ingenuity can't fix.
With that purchase, I replaced the rotating assembly, meaning the compression ratio is lowered and the internals (apart from the pistons, of course) are forged.
With that said, I appreciate your concern for me wasting my time seeking the unacheivable. The question remains though, will improving the volumetric efficiency of the entire set-up get me the numbers I'm hoping for?

When I said debate I was referring to m90 vs other power adders. When I started typing I knew I was going to drop the T bomb lol.

There are things that can be done to improve efficiency. It is very possible to decrease manifold pressure and still increase mass flow. At the same time bsfc improves as pumping losses are reduced and the motor is more efficient.

Is your motor built to handle the power?

kenewagner
12-12-2013, 11:30 PM
I suppose that answers my question about doing the single-port swap. I didn't think about the crappy lower.
The stickler in FI set-ups tend to be the volumetric efficiency. I already have 1:1.73 roller rockers up from the stock 1:1.5, with the more aggressive SC cam which is supposedly supposed to bind my springs. Guess I'm lucky. As said, I already home-ported the lower and heads. The flow is great. If I port the m90 up, use a TB from a GT (70mm), run a air-liquid IC and meth injection for pulling with 25% pulleys, I think I could get-away with it. I can spend as much making the mpx90 run 400rwhp on a SC as buying a whipple, and that's certain, but if I'm going to have to fork that kind of money for that goal, I'll just give-up on the torque-friendly positive displacements and go for a turbo set-up. I could settle for 400 @crank and somewhere around 350 to the wheels, especially with the torque given by these blowers.
The bottom-line question is though, using a very high volumetric efficient intake and doing minor modifications to a '90 m90, can I achieve those kinds of numbers on split-port heads with a low-loss air-water IC and meth?


Your going to be really disappointed in your quest for 400 rwhp with your ideas above. I wouldnt place any faith in the magnum powers recepies for HP. They are a joke. You can modify a 90s M90 anyway you want and it will make poor power. A MPX is far cheaper than a Whipple conversion, not even close price wise.
Your plans as I see them might get high 200 rwhp. 400 rwhp requires really big TB, plenum, MAF, moving the bigger air requires bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, a much bigger cam, big valve heads and good tuning. If you want to get big hp out of a 3.8 you will spend a lot of coin or you can get closer to that goal with a turbo.

Ken

davec73
12-13-2013, 12:01 AM
My setup included an extra large inlet 95mm tb 80lb injectors .600 lift cam stegemier heads 1.8 Harland sharp roller rockers 4" cai with hpx slot maf huge air to air ic 30% od long tube headers 340lph fuel pump w -8an feed line ported mpx m90 with abradive coated rotors from mp. I had it tuned and the best it ever pulled was right at 370. fwiw I am currently upgrading to a 1.7 auto rotor to break the 400 hp mark.

KMT
12-13-2013, 12:09 AM
My setup included ...I had it tuned and the best it ever pulled was right at 370.

Since ROI seems germane to this thread... $$ for that extra 160 hp?

davec73
12-13-2013, 12:42 AM
Since ROI seems germane to this thread... $$ for that extra 160 hp?

Too much I could have had a really nice twin screw setup if I had listened to some of the guys in the club

KMT
12-13-2013, 12:52 AM
I see, thanks.

Speaking of which, I wonder why this poll was closed with only 2 votes...

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116922

thE_iyE
12-13-2013, 01:37 AM
Okay, well, it looks like I'll be saving the m90 for my jeep and going with something else. Thanks for the replies.

bowez
12-13-2013, 07:53 AM
If you can build a 3.8 to 400RWHP and only spend $3k I'd like to know how and see the power band. Basiclly think of it this way figure what it will cost to get to 300hp N/A and then tack on the blower. Since you already have the bottom end and blower the cost to add the blower shouldn't be that much more (if you have the proper parts and/or can fabricate all your own stuff).

As for the M112 I believe that issue has been addressed that the 3.8 is too small to effectively/safely use one. Either too much boost on the top end or not much on the bottom end.

David Neibert
12-13-2013, 12:20 PM
I see, thanks.

Speaking of which, I wonder why this poll was closed with only 2 votes...

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116922

That's easy...because the person who created the poll didn't put down high enough numbers with $4500 being the max. A built SC motor cost more than that way back in 2000.

David

KMT
12-13-2013, 12:43 PM
Makes sense, thanks.

Maybe someone will start another with better/more choices, etc.

kenewagner
12-13-2013, 01:10 PM
Sombody should post what they spent on a built engine if they have a breakdown including bolt ons. Nothing I myself posted would be accurate as I barter a lot and build a lot of my own stuff to keep the dollars low. What would be cool is if a well know engine builder put his own recipes out there for a 350 and 400 and 450 hp combination that work in the real world:D Except I know there are about a million combinations to that end:p

Ken

davec73
12-14-2013, 12:14 AM
Sombody should post what they spent on a built engine if they have a breakdown including bolt ons. Nothing I myself posted would be accurate as I barter a lot and build a lot of my own stuff to keep the dollars low. What would be cool is if a well know engine builder put his own recipes out there for a 350 and 400 and 450 hp combination that work in the real world:D Except I know there are about a million combinations to that end:p

Ken
Mine was somewhere between 10 - 12000 with the mpx setup and everything it took to get the motor rebuilt etc start to finish. Keep in mind I didn't cut any corners and used top of the line everything though.

thE_iyE
12-16-2013, 06:44 AM
If you can build a 3.8 to 400RWHP and only spend $3k I'd like to know how and see the power band. Basiclly think of it this way figure what it will cost to get to 300hp N/A and then tack on the blower. Since you already have the bottom end and blower the cost to add the blower shouldn't be that much more (if you have the proper parts and/or can fabricate all your own stuff).

As for the M112 I believe that issue has been addressed that the 3.8 is too small to effectively/safely use one. Either too much boost on the top end or not much on the bottom end.

If you're willing to do your own work, you find deals, and most of all, have time, it's not nearly as impossible as those who buy parts at MSRP and have mechanics install them because they're too busy earning a lot of money at their jobs think... not saying you're one of those, but you're definitely on the other-side of the middle line between the two from my view-point.
...as for the power band, you get what you get with budged builds.
300hp N/A from a v6 is awfully difficult to achieve, but not nearly impossible. Good airflow is key. The thing with FI applications, as I've said several times, is volumetric efficiency. A motor that only has a 60% efficient air-flow is only going to get 60% (or less) of his supercharger's FI capacity. My neighbor went from 300hp to 350hp just by getting a heavier cam on his 5.0 fox turbo. Air flow multiplies your gain. It's not as simple as Supercharger=100hp.
That's really my question about this set-up. My flow is wonderful. I may be only pulling 250hp with the port, the higher-ratio rockers, the new intake, headers, and exhaust, but because the airflow is better (and if I can keep that airflow and not go-back to the low-flow pancake intake) I don't bat an eye at putting an absolute minimum at 350 and a goal at 4... but m90 isn't the blower to do it with.

ModdedMustangs has several members running m112. They tend to be volatile on stock internals, but again... stock mustang internals.
...with the m112 on-topic, though, is it possible to run that blower in any plane? MadMikeyL said "One real nice thing about this blower is that it can be mounted right-side up, upside down, sideways, on an angle, pretty much any way you need to position it." Is that also the case with the m112, or not? In other words, can you remote-mount an m112?

bowez
12-16-2013, 07:59 AM
I mention 300N/A hp for budgeting reasons not for building, because when you drop the compression, change the cam get blower drag you should get ~ 400HP. While yes VE will go up with a blower over all efficiency goes down.

Me personally I'll buy my ported heads and matching cam. If memory serves was quoted ~$2k for whole valve train, porting, and supporting injectors (I already have the items before the blower and a S-port).

kenewagner
12-16-2013, 09:33 AM
ModdedMustangs has several members running m112. They tend to be volatile on stock internals, but again... stock mustang internals.
...with the m112 on-topic, though, is it possible to run that blower in any plane? MadMikeyL said "One real nice thing about this blower is that it can be mounted right-side up, upside down, sideways, on an angle, pretty much any way you need to position it." Is that also the case with the m112, or not? In other words, can you remote-mount an m112?

Im sure you can do the same mounting of a M112 that you can do with a M90 If you can find the room:rolleyes: Personally the M112 is not that good. Overdriven it performs poorly and makes a lot of heat. Given a choice between the two I would take a MPX M90 over driven to an M112 overdriven.

Ken

thE_iyE
12-16-2013, 02:30 PM
I mention 300N/A hp for budgeting reasons not for building, because when you drop the compression, change the cam get blower drag you should get ~ 400HP. While yes VE will go up with a blower over all efficiency goes down.

Me personally I'll buy my ported heads and matching cam. If memory serves was quoted ~$2k for whole valve train, porting, and supporting injectors (I already have the items before the blower and a S-port).

Okay, that's not a bad rule of thumb at all. Your valve-train is a good example, though. I pulled my increased-ratio roller rockers and supercharger cam with my SC internals, block, heads, intake, etc. for $300. The timing of the SC cam is better and the lift from the rockers should* be binding my springs. The port-job I did was a home-port. Total cost for $2k of work? $400 (plus goodies).


Im sure you can do the same mounting of a M112 that you can do with a M90 If you can find the room:rolleyes: Personally the M112 is not that good. Overdriven it performs poorly and makes a lot of heat. Given a choice between the two I would take a MPX M90 over driven to an M112 overdriven.

Ken

With the m112 in a 3.8 motor, it's going to be hard to overdrive it safely, as I understand. The room may be an issue, but the bay of the mustang is rather long. I've never seen one in person, though, so that does make it harder to judge, but there's a lot of wasted space in the v6 bay. If my VE is high enough and I use stock pulleys, I may not hit 400, but I'll be well-over 350.

kenewagner
12-16-2013, 04:08 PM
Okay, that's not a bad rule of thumb at all. Your valve-train is a good example, though. I pulled my increased-ratio roller rockers and supercharger cam with my SC internals, block, heads, intake, etc. for $300. The timing of the SC cam is better and the lift from the rockers should* be binding my springs. The port-job I did was a home-port. Total cost for $2k of work? $400 (plus goodies).



With the m112 in a 3.8 motor, it's going to be hard to overdrive it safely, as I understand. The room may be an issue, but the bay of the mustang is rather long. I've never seen one in person, though, so that does make it harder to judge, but there's a lot of wasted space in the v6 bay. If my VE is high enough and I use stock pulleys, I may not hit 400, but I'll be well-over 350.

Its nice you want to build on a budget. The SC cam is very mild and the valve springs will not allow you to spin the RPMs you will need to make your high expectation numbers. You need a lot more lift and duration in the cam and springs that will spin to 6000 at least to make 400 rwhp. Thats not budget. The Magnum powers inlet is really sized to let big air to be pulled to get the most out the blower. It needs to be matched to a big throttle body and MAF to match. A slotted MAF is what most the big boys run. Pricing those parts will knock you socks off. If you want to spin to 6000 rpm you need 80 lb injectors, bigger if you use E85. A big pump to match, throw that in to the equation. None of it will work without tuning.

The M112 will make about 13 to 14 lbs of boost with ALL of the above supporting it. Overdrive it 10% makes about 19lbs of boost and you will see about 350 rwhp. It makes huge torque down low and poor power on top. The reason is the rotors are so long they dont fill up entirely with air when spun super fast making it a poor efficient blower. I & others even modified the intake to match the MPX intake and it help very little. It makes massive heat on the top end. It makes massive torque on the bottom end:D. It is happiest making 12 to 13 lbs of boost which it was designed for. You can convince yourself you can make big HP on a small budget but anyone here that makes big power has already traveled down the paths you suggest and they dont work. If you really want somethin fast go turbo or go V8

Ken

bowez
12-16-2013, 07:11 PM
The $2k includes ported Heads (bigger valves, dual springs and such), Roller Rockers, moly push rods, lifters, ported lower intake, matched cam, Wide band guage/sensor, tuning software(QH), 60#+ injectors, and hope my current 255lph pump can keep up.

If you feel confident with your port job I'm glad for you, but that and matching the cam is something I'm willing to pay for. Though I plan on doing all the installation myself.




Plus one major thing is being overlooked, the driveline. A 8.8 will be required, suggest a LSD too, and your stock 4R will not handle the power, expect close to $600-1k doing it yourslef. My current <300whp roasted a stock AOD rebuild in less than 6k miles, I speak from experience.

JT's03
12-16-2013, 07:43 PM
Very nice info on the m112. A procharger can be a real fun setup on these engines. If you are willing to run a 3500rpm stall converter and spin the motor to 6500rpm with supporting mods, I have a few tricks on how to get an edge into the 11's with this setup.

It was worth the cost to have my motor setup for me as well.

JT's03
12-16-2013, 10:03 PM
Here's a thought, how would a tvs 1.9l work for 400rwhp on these engines?

Also not going to dis the stock mustang 7.5" rear end. I have been on the stock housing for 7 years and have made some good power through it. I would estimate 480-500rwhp/ 550tq currently on my street tune. It has a Detroit ratchet style locker and moser 28s axles. C-clips scare me though.

thE_iyE
12-16-2013, 10:43 PM
Its nice you want to build on a budget. The SC cam is very mild and the valve springs will not allow you to spin the RPMs you will need to make your high expectation numbers. You need a lot more lift and duration in the cam and springs that will spin to 6000 at least to make 400 rwhp. Thats not budget. The Magnum powers inlet is really sized to let big air to be pulled to get the most out the blower. It needs to be matched to a big throttle body and MAF to match. A slotted MAF is what most the big boys run. Pricing those parts will knock you socks off. If you want to spin to 6000 rpm you need 80 lb injectors, bigger if you use E85. A big pump to match, throw that in to the equation. None of it will work without tuning.

The M112 will make about 13 to 14 lbs of boost with ALL of the above supporting it. Overdrive it 10% makes about 19lbs of boost and you will see about 350 rwhp. It makes huge torque down low and poor power on top. The reason is the rotors are so long they dont fill up entirely with air when spun super fast making it a poor efficient blower. I & others even modified the intake to match the MPX intake and it help very little. It makes massive heat on the top end. It makes massive torque on the bottom end:D. It is happiest making 12 to 13 lbs of boost which it was designed for. You can convince yourself you can make big HP on a small budget but anyone here that makes big power has already traveled down the paths you suggest and they dont work. If you really want somethin fast go turbo or go V8

Ken

That's good advice, thank you. I had determined to go turbo earlier, but I got excited about my m90 when I read there were SC's taking it to 400hp with simply changing pulleys and modifying the air flow. Thanks.

kenewagner
12-16-2013, 11:49 PM
That's good advice, thank you. I had determined to go turbo earlier, but I got excited about my m90 when I read there were SC's taking it to 400hp with simply changing pulleys and modifying the air flow. Thanks.

The turbo route will get you to 400+ numbers but one has to remember you still need big injectors, and a big fuel pump. Removing the parasetic loss of the blower is what makes it easier. You still have to spin the motor up there to make HP and tuning, tuning, tuning. Lot of people blow things up getting in a hurry:rolleyes:


Ken

thE_iyE
12-17-2013, 12:40 PM
The turbo route will get you to 400+ numbers but one has to remember you still need big injectors, and a big fuel pump. Removing the parasetic loss of the blower is what makes it easier. You still have to spin the motor up there to make HP and tuning, tuning, tuning. Lot of people blow things up getting in a hurry:rolleyes:


Ken

I should be able to get away with the Focus SVT pump and aroung 50lb. injectors, all of which can be had for a deal, looking in the right places. The tune is going to be the tough part, but these are things universal. 80lb. injectors to go 6k rpm and the pump to feed them is much much more expensive than would be necessary for 15psi of boost, which should get me there. Thanks.

JT's03
12-17-2013, 07:46 PM
Skip the svt pump and go straight for the 340 stealth. The focus works for some and for some(myself included) does not. Also might as well go 60lb injectors. You will need ev6 if your car is 01+.

decipha
12-17-2013, 11:56 PM
If your side mounting the blower you wont need an mp inlet, plenum, or large throttle body

a 75mm tb will support 500hp, stock config is suction so that doesnt apply

a stock sc engine only makes 140ish hp without the blower due to the intake design

a breadbox intake on an sc engine will make about 180hp, and 280 with the stock blower, od it 15% and you got 340hp, open up the cam and heads and 390 is about all youll get with a single m90, slap two on there and your looking at about 510rwhp

a single 255 in tank pump will support well over 500hp

kenewagner
12-18-2013, 09:50 AM
If your side mounting the blower you wont need an mp inlet, plenum, or large throttle body

a 75mm tb will support 500hp, stock config is suction so that doesnt apply

a stock sc engine only makes 140ish hp without the blower due to the intake design

a breadbox intake on an sc engine will make about 180hp, and 280 with the stock blower, od it 15% and you got 340hp, open up the cam and heads and 390 is about all youll get with a single m90, slap two on there and your looking at about 510rwhp

a single 255 in tank pump will support well over 500hp

Where did you come up with numbers like that???

Ken

kpoindex08
03-09-2015, 03:25 AM
It may be an old thread but I think a punchline is well deserved in this case.

The internet lol :D

decipha
03-09-2015, 02:45 PM
you figured me out, I just regurgitated what i read on the internet

I thought by now you would have seen that posted everywhere