I was thinking about how well would a top mounted intercooler work. I've read on other threads that even with the front mounted intercooler that the car ran a little warmer cause of the new location in front of the radiator. With a top mounted system and a custom hood something similar to a WRX. What do guys think?
top mounted intercooler. Has anyone tried it?
- Thread starter turshin
- Start date
A bulge yes but not that big. I'm thinking nothing too much worse than maybe a 3 or 4 inch cowl with a hole cut in the front. I read on supercoupe performance that people's cars run a little warmer cause of the fmic. But then again he would say that just to sell more of his cooling products lol. As far as it looking like Mad Max Road Warrior i don't believe. I do understand that if you do any under hood modifications it usually causes for cowl hood. Let's think outside the box though people.
Jacob_Royer
SCCoA Member
Worst idea ever! Mount the IC over the hot engine and blower?? The only reason fmic cause cooling problems is if you buy the mp fmic it sandwiches the core between the radiator and condenser. 350$ for a good core and pipe kit and when you goto a fmic you can ditch the crappy sc radiator for a v8 or na radiator that's actually has some size to it
Worst idea ever! Really? I wonder why stock for stock the wrx will wipe the track with a super coupe. I seen quarter mile specs of a wrx sti at 12.8. just the regular wrx posted at mid 13s with the slowest at 14 flat. There were some subaru that were really slow but all the wrx are pretty quick. I would prolly never do it but i think it could work. Also didnt that turbo mustang from the 80s intake air from the top of the hood? I am not sure but didnt the turbo t bird take air in from the hood? Just sayin dont jump till you scope it out.
nickleman60
Registered User
Found this article:
Intercoolers: Top Mount Versus Front Mount
For turbocharged vehicles, intercoolers are an essential component that increase power and improve overall performance. While it may seem like mounting position would make a minimal difference in performance, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. Each layout, whether it be the horizontal, top mount format found in cars like the Subaru WRX, or the V Mount, vertical front mount setup found on vehicles like the Lancer Evolution, has strengths and weaknesses best suited for different types of use. For best performance, it is important to understand these specific characteristics so you can know how best to apply them to your vehicle.
Top Mount Intercoolers
Top mount intercoolers found on vehicles such as the Subaru WRX have one critical weakness; they tend to be highly prone to heat soak. A vehicle’s engine produces a lot of heat and this heat rises, accumulating in the intercooler when the vehicle is moving at slow speeds or stopped in traffic. This heat soak heats airflow as it passes through the intercooler, vastly reducing cooling efficiency until outside airflow can remove this excess heat.
Top mount intercoolers are not without their benefits however. Because of their placement and close proximity to the engine, intercooler piping can often times be shorter than it would be in a front mount placement. Because it is not blocking airflow to the radiator, engine cooling is generally better than with a front mount setup. This shorter intercooler piping means faster turbo response and less potential Turbo Lag, which can pay big dividends when using a larger turbo or when installed on a track car.
Front Mount Intercoolers
Front mount intercoolers tend to be less susceptible to heat soak due to their placement in the front of the vehicle, and because of the abundant airflow, tend to offer far better cooling efficiency in slower traffic or normal driving. The problem with this placement however, is the toll it takes on other components in your vehicle. Because of the placement of the hot intercooler in front of both your AC condenser and Radiator, cooling performance of these devices can be greatly reduced, causing an increased chance of engine overheating. In addition to cooling problems, this front mount set up can often allow overly large intercoolers to be installed. Not only does this place substantial weight at the front of the vehicle where it can negatively impact handling, but overly large intercoolers can cause noticeable lag, as the additional space must be pressurized before the air can make its way to the engine.
In addition, because of the placement of the intercooler, longer intercooler piping is generally required, resulting in even further dulled throttle response. Front mount placement tends to be best for drag racing, though it can work equally well for normal driving and track days if restraint is exercised when deciding on intercooler size.
Regardless of your intercooler’s mounting position, there will be trade offs and benefits. It should be noted that many vehicles cannot use a top mount setup due to hood clearance and engine height. It is because of this that front mount placement is generally the most common option and easiest to install.
Intercoolers: Top Mount Versus Front Mount
For turbocharged vehicles, intercoolers are an essential component that increase power and improve overall performance. While it may seem like mounting position would make a minimal difference in performance, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. Each layout, whether it be the horizontal, top mount format found in cars like the Subaru WRX, or the V Mount, vertical front mount setup found on vehicles like the Lancer Evolution, has strengths and weaknesses best suited for different types of use. For best performance, it is important to understand these specific characteristics so you can know how best to apply them to your vehicle.
Top Mount Intercoolers
Top mount intercoolers found on vehicles such as the Subaru WRX have one critical weakness; they tend to be highly prone to heat soak. A vehicle’s engine produces a lot of heat and this heat rises, accumulating in the intercooler when the vehicle is moving at slow speeds or stopped in traffic. This heat soak heats airflow as it passes through the intercooler, vastly reducing cooling efficiency until outside airflow can remove this excess heat.
Top mount intercoolers are not without their benefits however. Because of their placement and close proximity to the engine, intercooler piping can often times be shorter than it would be in a front mount placement. Because it is not blocking airflow to the radiator, engine cooling is generally better than with a front mount setup. This shorter intercooler piping means faster turbo response and less potential Turbo Lag, which can pay big dividends when using a larger turbo or when installed on a track car.
Front Mount Intercoolers
Front mount intercoolers tend to be less susceptible to heat soak due to their placement in the front of the vehicle, and because of the abundant airflow, tend to offer far better cooling efficiency in slower traffic or normal driving. The problem with this placement however, is the toll it takes on other components in your vehicle. Because of the placement of the hot intercooler in front of both your AC condenser and Radiator, cooling performance of these devices can be greatly reduced, causing an increased chance of engine overheating. In addition to cooling problems, this front mount set up can often allow overly large intercoolers to be installed. Not only does this place substantial weight at the front of the vehicle where it can negatively impact handling, but overly large intercoolers can cause noticeable lag, as the additional space must be pressurized before the air can make its way to the engine.
In addition, because of the placement of the intercooler, longer intercooler piping is generally required, resulting in even further dulled throttle response. Front mount placement tends to be best for drag racing, though it can work equally well for normal driving and track days if restraint is exercised when deciding on intercooler size.
Regardless of your intercooler’s mounting position, there will be trade offs and benefits. It should be noted that many vehicles cannot use a top mount setup due to hood clearance and engine height. It is because of this that front mount placement is generally the most common option and easiest to install.
I dont know what they weigh, but 12.8 is still 12.8. The best super coupe time is like 2 seconds slower. I am just sayin dont knock it till you have tried it.
1FSTBRD
Registered User
I can just see the car geek talk at the weekend car meets: "Is that a bulge in your hood for an intercooler, or are you just happy to see my supercharger?"
I suppose a top mounted intercooler could work quite well, with getting a couple of inlets of fresh air from the hood. The Turbo T-Bird has a top mounted IC, but the problem with that was because it was right next to the turbo, so it would be close to a major heat source. Then again, so is the lower IC tube on the SC's....right next to the exhaust manifold.
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Ford tried it in the late '80s on the Thunderbird Turbo Coupes - I used a top-mount TC IC on my '86 Xr4Ti with some success, but that was mainly because the car didn't come with an IC stock.
We know that since then, Ford leans towards exchangers in the nose and air-to-water ICs for their supercharged vehicles today.
If you already have an intercooler you're trying to puzzle-fit on top and you don't want a custom FMIC, that money might be better spent on improving stock intercooler performance by swapping in a narrow A/C condenser and IC fan or a double core IC w/fan, instead. Don't forget to clean out the stock IC for best heat exchange.
In any case, don't ignore best airflow for your routine driving conditions and boosted air tract length & size in terms of pressure drop. But yes, I'd be most concerned with heat soak for top mounted in the case of our cars. It's one thing to think outside the box, but it's another to shot yourself in the foot.
We know that since then, Ford leans towards exchangers in the nose and air-to-water ICs for their supercharged vehicles today.
If you already have an intercooler you're trying to puzzle-fit on top and you don't want a custom FMIC, that money might be better spent on improving stock intercooler performance by swapping in a narrow A/C condenser and IC fan or a double core IC w/fan, instead. Don't forget to clean out the stock IC for best heat exchange.
In any case, don't ignore best airflow for your routine driving conditions and boosted air tract length & size in terms of pressure drop. But yes, I'd be most concerned with heat soak for top mounted in the case of our cars. It's one thing to think outside the box, but it's another to shot yourself in the foot.
First off are you serious!? Trying to justify your idea based of the fact that WRXs and STIs are faster than a Supercoupe is absolutely childish it is not a valid argument or justification. The top mound IC doesn't make and STI faster than a supercoupe there is a whole lot more at play there, the cars are so fundamentally different in many ways, a 2 door grand touring car to a compact economy sedan that's sole purpose of existing is merely to homologate the chassis and powertrain components for FIA legality to RACE. Both cars had such completely different engineering goals. Also consider there is likely about a decade of difference in technology between the two cars...
And for a legitimate logical reasoning... Ford had experience with small top mount setups in the past and I am sure if the pros and cons balanced out one way over the other there was a very solid reason for it. Also when thinking about top mounts consider the addition of drag and the fact a scoop has to be huge to make it effective because you have to make it tall enough to get out of the boundary layer of air to actually get moving air. In large part the benefits of a top mount on a positive displacement supercharged engine are null and void unless it were your only packaging option (such as a mid engine car or something) superchargers are in large part already cooler than turbos, they do not have lag and due to the positive displacement type that a supercoupe uses, also due to this long piping and big intercoolers aren't really going to contribute to lag. However supercharged engines like ours are susceptible to heat soaking the rotors and supercharger case which a top mount would amplify.
Subaru likely did top mounts for these reasons: its a rally car, they get badly damaged sometimes so the less stuff in the crash zone the better, your less likely to get an intercooler mounted up high clogged with dirt, mud, leafs, grass etc..., drag doesn't matter because rally cars are geared so low they rarely if ever exceed 130mph, its engine has a lower height due to being a horizontally opposed 4cyl thus there is room for it there and it allows short piping to reduce turbo lag. If you think about it given the intentions of an STI or a WRX it makes perfect sense why they did things the way they did.
I have heard from many folks that air to water (aside from using ice) is actually more prone to heat soak than a normal air to air system. Yet positive displacement supercharger due to large thick pieces of metal components are inherently prone to heat soaking. It seems ford may have attempted to counteract this by giving the supercoupe its somewhat elaborate air to air system, I think ford went away from that merely as a lesson learned from the MN12 since all tat piping sure makes the engine bay a crammed place.
If you're comparing top mounted for both examples, I'd favor air-to-water since it can benefit from a remote exchanger. Do you have an example of a car/truck manufacturer that uses top mounted air-to-air with a supercharger these days?
Saying it's the worst idea ever is a bit harsh don't you think? If Suby and even Ford with the TC and the SVO can do it on turbo cats why would it not work on our cars with a blower. It would most definitely be more efficient than how it is ran stock. The whole idea came from me trying to think of something none of you guys have ever tried b4. I found a super clean 89sc that i have to replace the motor in. I wanted to do something that would stand out at the shootout. Also You said that i can fins a core and pipe kit for our cars for 350 dollars. Now tell me specifically where you can find this kit at. Not trying to say it doesn't exist I may be interested in buying it.
Jacob_Royer
SCCoA Member
The stock location makes more sense than mounting it above the hot ~~~ blower and engine. Plus the fact that you couldn't use a big IC .. get on eBay buy a 32x12x3(or 4) IC core and a 2 3/4" pipe kit mount it behind the front bumper cover where it will pickup nice cold air not hot air from the engine
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kenewagner
Registered User
I am not in favor of the air to air top mount IC but a air to water IC, that would be cool no pun intended. A custom manifold like Mike Tucks with a laminova cored IC in the manifold and the blower inverted would be really unique and something to show off some day at the shootout. I wish one of Mikes manifolds has evolved to that.
Ken
Ken
Ya I am serious. Have you ever raced one at a legal quarter mile track? Like I said 12.8 is a 12.8 no matter what did it, no stock super coupe has ever even came close. So yes I am serious. You never really got my point anyway. turshin got it though.
The stock location has piping running next to a hot exhaust manifold. It doesn't make sense. But I respect your decision to disagree.