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kenewagner
05-09-2014, 10:24 AM
Well I finally got everything lined up to tune the car. Dave flew in from Ohio to work his magic. We street tuned it Wednesday morning. Everything functioned like it should and idle and street manors are excellent. So we loaded it up and headed to Lincoln. Strapped it to the dyno and proceeded to make a few base line pulls. Waste gates have 14lb springs in them. It was boosting to around 10 to 11lbs of boost. Hp was in the 300 rwhp area, not really impressive I felt. Dave added some timing and we started dialing in boost. We quit at around 20lbs and 450 rwhp which I felt was low for my expectations. We could have dialed in some more boost and maybe a degree or so of timing and hit 475 to 480 but I called it quits for the time being as the tune is not super agressive and We felt there was something holding it back from making expected numbers. The really bad news is the full boost isnt there untill almost 5000 rpms makeing it a dog on the street or off the line in a quarter mile race. This is not what we expected and everyone was at a loss as to why it wont spool with small turbos. The water to air IC worked great and keep ACTs low. Hottest day of the year. 100 degrees in the dyno shop. Dave and I brained stormed a lot to try and figure out what is limiting the cars performance. Dave felt I needed to talk to the maker of the universal kit I used to fab up my system. I talked to STS tech guy yesterday and layed out to him the entire story and list of mods for the car. I sent him detailed pictures of how the system is set up and give him detailed information so he could evaluate the problem. He told the problem was very obvious. The cam in the car now, while great for a supercharger is totally wrong for a rear mount turbo. He spent about 20 minutes schooling me on the why and where withs of cams. Now before a lot of you guys with turbo cars jump in and say use this or use that. A rear mount turbo cam has to be a certain spec to work the best with a rear mount turbo setup. Cam specs are not the same as a front mounted turbo. We all know that to make the best HP possible we need a combination of modifacations that make sense and work together. My cam is speced out with lots of exhaust duration and lift, more so that the intake side. It also has a lobe seperation of 112. The recommendation given to me by STS was a lobe seperation of around 116 and they have installed one cam with 118. Second recomendation was to reduce the exhaust duration and lift dramaticly. Those two things alone would solve the poor spooling and its low power. He told me I would have made sick power if I had a closer to stock cam than the big stick in it now. The tech guy said he worked for a major cam company specing out cams for a living and seemed to have a good working knowledge of why the recommendations work. To bad I can remember everything he said. I plan to do some more looking in to this and talking to Dave about a cam to replace my bump stick. I hope to have a better recommendation today from STS as to what are good numbers for a new cam and discuss this with Dave. So unless I figured out something else wrong with the combination it looks like a cam change in the near future.

I would like to say that Dave was a wealth of information and worth bring him in to tune the car. He even made my dog fall in love with him:D and Benny one of the local SC guys has help me through fixing a lot of things and getting the car ready. Even solved a electrical problem keeping the alternator from charging the battery. Thanks to both of you


Ken

neverfastenough
05-09-2014, 10:47 AM
Ken, can you post your current cam specs.

kenewagner
05-09-2014, 11:26 AM
Ken, can you post your current cam specs.

Intake lift .602 Exhaust .610 Duration 224/228 Lobe seperation 112
Vale timing @ .050 Open Closed
Intake 4 BTDC 40 ABDC
Exaust 50 BBDC 2- ATDC

Numbers off the cam card

Ken

superdadsc
05-09-2014, 11:40 AM
Ken you will figure it out!!! You have a beautiful car and a monster lies beneath!! Good luck w/ finding the right cam for your setup! look forward to the end result.

kenewagner
05-09-2014, 11:42 AM
Guess a picture of the card would cover everything.

Ken60564

XR7 Dave
05-09-2014, 11:55 AM
Ken and Ben did an excellent job making sure everything was ready and the overall install/prep was excellent. Ken was constantly expecting something he did would go wrong but it didn't and everything went really smooth. I just wish we'd had a clue how sensitive these turbo's would be to back pressure. Live and learn!

Toms-SC
05-09-2014, 12:00 PM
Minor set back. Pretty good results for having a wrong cam shaft. Congrats on not blowing up on the dyno. :D

David Neibert
05-09-2014, 12:03 PM
Ken,

Looks like the same cam I've got in my 91 SC or really close to it. So they are thinking the higher than usual exhaust back pressure from the small turbines and intake/exhaust overlap are the reasons for slow spooling and less than expected power ?

Is there any way to block off your wastegates to confirm they were staying closed until you reached the desired boost level ?

David

kenewagner
05-09-2014, 12:24 PM
Ken,

Looks like the same cam I've got in my 91 SC or really close to it. So they are thinking the higher than usual exhaust back pressure from the small turbines and intake/exhaust overlap are the reasons for slow spooling and less than expected power ?

Is there any way to block off your wastegates to confirm they were staying closed until you reached the desired boost level ?

David

The first thing the STS guy wanted to know was the lobe seperation, when I told him 112 I could almost hear him shaking his head over the phone. Seemed to feel that was a big big problem. Than asked about exhaust lift, once again said that was not good. He even went as far as to suggest I install some 1.6 rockers to lower the lift some to help. Duration way to much for the intended use. I am waiting to hear recommendations. Sometimes going big is not better. Waste gates are plumbed into the rear exhaust so no way to really block them off. I beleive your lift on the exhaust side was a little lower than mine but you had more duration. It makes sense if you start to think it through that rear mounted turbos have diffrent problems due to their location and need a diffrent consideration. Corey has suggest I install the extra 5lb springs in with the 14lb springs to equal 19lbers. All in an attempt to have power come on quicker. The only problem with that is I wouldnt be able to run pump gas. The 10 to 11 lbs on the lowest setting is pump friendly at the moment. Other suggestions were shots of nitrous to spool the turbos. In the long run I would rather solve the problem rather than bandaid it. If a correctly speced cam gives me what I am looking for than I will tear the engine down again. Only have done it a half dozen times already so whats one more time. We are always telling new guys that if you mod something to move more air than you need to upgrade injectors. Everything works together to get a desired result. Running a cam speced for a rear mount turbo just seems to make good sense over a pretty agressive supercharger cam. Dave pointed out that coreys almost stock cam made over 500 rwhp, if bigger is better, 600+ should have been a cake walk with my bigger cam

Ken


Ken

neverfastenough
05-09-2014, 01:11 PM
I don’t remember what my stock cam was lsa wise but it still had more exhaust lift and duration than intake, just a fyi. It was either 112 or 114.

To the comment on back pressure pre turbo as David asked. It hasn’t been measured yet according to ken. Normally the high backpressure would be a quick spool and poor top end performance.

Ken how did the boost curve look, it will tell a lot. Especially if the wg is starting to creep open around 10psi and then fully open at your desired 20 psi set point. I’d want that wg closed to the last possible second.

Btw I ran 20psi on 19 degrees on pump gas. My motor showed signs of detonation though. I’d ask Dalke if you can lower the timing some so you can experiment with the heaver springs on the street.

BTW again, if youre interested in my cam it may be available. I may be a bit off but i beleive its 206/212 553/562. I have the card somewhere.

As far as the sts guy goes, I think he likes high LSA because raising lsa would lower overlap if nothing else changed. I think...... no expert on that. And some people think overlap is the end of the world on a turbo car.


Maybe this will stir up some interesting conversation, got this from the GN forums

stock gn cam

Advertised Duration : 258/262
Duration at .050" lift : 192/196
Lift .384/.408
Lobe Separation 107 degrees
Overlap 38 degrees

Hard to find GMC cyclone stock specs but the off the shelf aftermarkets seem to be 110-112lsa with around 200/200 500/500

XR7 Dave
05-09-2014, 02:15 PM
We can easily do a cam that will eliminate overlap. It's much harder to actually put it in. Lift is pretty much irrelevant, but most people look at lift and assume high lift means long duration so you can't seem to have a conversation about cams without lift coming into the discussion. I already know what we need to do, it's just a bummer that Ken has to take his stuff apart again. :cool:

neverfastenough
05-09-2014, 02:30 PM
Dig out them wrenches ken! Bright side, that engine has to be easier to work on with all that stuff out of the way. Might even be easier to just yank the motor.

CMac89
05-09-2014, 03:03 PM
I know what their theory is. In a long, rear-mounted hot side, there are multiple pressure zones that achieve their peak pressure at different times. First, the pressure will be highest in the headers because of the collector. Once that happens, you must maintain that pressure until the downstream pressures are high enough to spool the turbo. In order to keep those pressures high, the valves cannot stay open in overlap too long or else that pressure will be lost from reversion back into the cylinder. Every overlap event, the exhaust system can potentially lower the pressure in the hot side. However, I do not agree with the less exhaust duration with the cam that Ken has. The piston speed and volume of gas that is exiting the exhaust port will help spool the turbo. The pressure in the hot side will not overcome those pressures, to a certain extent, but definitely not in the magnitude of Ken's cam specs. The rear mount system differs from the front mount turbo system because of the variable exhaust pressure building, but in the end result it's still exhaust pressure and airflow.

I do agree with the theory, for the most part, but I do not agree with their opinion on the magnitude of your cam specs. How do they actually quantify that? It's hard to determine unless you test it. Your cam is rather dainty compared to the cam that I used. You have 2 degrees of overlap on that cam and I had 27 degrees. Rear mounted turbo systems do not vary that greatly in overlap. My exhaust duration was also 260 with .600" lift. With this cam, my heavy, 74mm, 1.1 A/R turbo hit peak boost by 5000rpm. If I had to do another cam, I would take the LSA out to 118.

I would suggest to raise the LSA to 116-118 (depending on the duration you choose), raise the intake/exhaust duration, and run a straight-up duration split or regular split with a few more degrees higher than the intake duration.

Just a little food for thought!

kenewagner
05-09-2014, 03:21 PM
I know what their theory is. In a long, rear-mounted hot side, there are multiple pressure zones that achieve their peak pressure at different times. First, the pressure will be highest in the headers because of the collector. Once that happens, you must maintain that pressure until the downstream pressures are high enough to spool the turbo. In order to keep those pressures high, the valves cannot stay open in overlap too long or else that pressure will be lost from reversion back into the cylinder. Every overlap event, the exhaust system can potentially lower the pressure in the hot side. However, I do not agree with the less exhaust duration with the cam that Ken has. The piston speed and volume of gas that is exiting the exhaust port will help spool the turbo. The pressure in the hot side will not overcome those pressures, to a certain extent, but definitely not in the magnitude of Ken's cam specs. The rear mount system differs from the front mount turbo system because of the variable exhaust pressure building, but in the end result it's still exhaust pressure and airflow.

I do agree with the theory, for the most part, but I do not agree with their opinion on the magnitude of your cam specs. How do they actually quantify that? It's hard to determine unless you test it. Your cam is rather dainty compared to the cam that I used. You have 2 degrees of overlap on that cam and I had 27 degrees. Rear mounted turbo systems do not vary that greatly in overlap. My exhaust duration was also 260 with .600" lift. With this cam, my heavy, 74mm, 1.1 A/R turbo hit peak boost by 5000rpm. If I had to do another cam, I would take the LSA out to 118.

I would suggest to raise the LSA to 116-118 (depending on the duration you choose), raise the intake/exhaust duration, and run a straight-up duration split or regular split with a few more degrees higher than the intake duration.

Just a little food for thought!


Not running headers but heavy ported cast manifolds. Can you add a little more insite on your last statement? sounds like you advocate more duration but I dont understand "
and run a straight-up duration split or regular split with a few more degrees higher than the intake duration." Sounds like you agree with the LSA of 116-118

STS sent me an E mail that offered no numbers other than they said a asymmetrical grind is recommended with less lift and duration on the exhaust side. Duration to be determined by who ever specs my cam and based on RPM acheivement requirements. Still trying to talk to a live body again

Ken

David Neibert
05-09-2014, 04:46 PM
The first thing the STS guy wanted to know was the lobe seperation, when I told him 112 I could almost hear him shaking his head over the phone. Seemed to feel that was a big big problem. Than asked about exhaust lift, once again said that was not good. He even went as far as to suggest I install some 1.6 rockers to lower the lift some to help. Duration way to much for the intended use. I am waiting to hear recommendations. Sometimes going big is not better. Waste gates are plumbed into the rear exhaust so no way to really block them off. I beleive your lift on the exhaust side was a little lower than mine but you had more duration. It makes sense if you start to think it through that rear mounted turbos have diffrent problems due to their location and need a diffrent consideration. Corey has suggest I install the extra 5lb springs in with the 14lb springs to equal 19lbers. All in an attempt to have power come on quicker. The only problem with that is I wouldnt be able to run pump gas. The 10 to 11 lbs on the lowest setting is pump friendly at the moment. Other suggestions were shots of nitrous to spool the turbos. In the long run I would rather solve the problem rather than bandaid it. If a correctly speced cam gives me what I am looking for than I will tear the engine down again. Only have done it a half dozen times already so whats one more time. We are always telling new guys that if you mod something to move more air than you need to upgrade injectors. Everything works together to get a desired result. Running a cam speced for a rear mount turbo just seems to make good sense over a pretty agressive supercharger cam. Dave pointed out that coreys almost stock cam made over 500 rwhp, if bigger is better, 600+ should have been a cake walk with my bigger cam

Ken


Ken

If you can't mechanically block the wastegate, applying air pressure to the top of the waste gate from your manifold, the turbo outlet or an independant source is the easiest way to test spooling with gate blocked. Doing this will provide max boost because the air hose is trying to keep the gate closed instead of working against the spring to open the gate, so you have to be careful not to over boost the motor. Do you have a diagram showing how you plumbed the boost controller and wastegates ?

Just think it's worth testing the wastegates to make sure they are staying closed until reaching peak boost before swapping the cam.

David

JT's03
05-09-2014, 07:12 PM
I would check for exhaust leaks and make sure the wg's are closing. Also check the blow off valves and cold side for boost leaks. I dont think this setup will ever be a tq monster but the hp is down quite a bit imo. If it were me I'd go about getting as much data as possible. Start by hooking a map sensor pre turbine to log back pressure. A rear mount seems like it would be hard setup to spool anyways because of the added volume you need hot and cold side.

I think a cam could help but don't think it's the cure all. Have also read a runner intake will spool faster than a boxed upper.

XxSlowpokexX
05-11-2014, 12:43 PM
The theory makes sence with the turbos so far back. On a 6 probably alot more sensative to this than on an 8. Unfortunately Ken as always you are doing something noone else here has...So I guess there is some what of a learning curve. Im sure you dont want to experiment with multiple cam selections. Id have a talk with v8 guys with larger rear mounted turbos that are making good power an dsee what kind of cam specs they are running. Doesnt sound like wastegate issue at all and people running rear mount turbo kits will know best.

1FSTBRD
05-12-2014, 11:28 PM
I've been getting more into cams and heads and researching the overall efficiency of a setup, lately, after hearing about people with ill suited cams and vacuum and power issues. Would a lift to diameter ratio help at all in determining a problem, as well, to gauge the efficiency of your particular setup? What size are your intake and exhaust valves? Around a 30 percent L/D ratio is good for street applications, as is said, and 35 percent is better for racing applications.

What's your rocker setup now--stock 1.73's?

kenewagner
07-15-2014, 08:44 AM
Looks like I will be swapping my cam out in a week or so. Dave has speced me out one that should work much better for my setup. Probably will put the old cam up for sale if anyone is interested. Will be upping the waste gate springs to 19lbs to see if it brings boost on quicker as well. Shootout will be here in a blink of an eye so I need to get in gear and DO WORK

Ken

neverfastenough
07-15-2014, 09:49 PM
Get wrenching Ken, there may be a black turbo car there....





Looks like I will be swapping my cam out in a week or so. Dave has speced me out one that should work much better for my setup. Probably will put the old cam up for sale if anyone is interested. Will be upping the waste gate springs to 19lbs to see if it brings boost on quicker as well. Shootout will be here in a blink of an eye so I need to get in gear and DO WORK

Ken

Mike8675309
07-15-2014, 10:32 PM
I know Dave is already working on solving the problem for you. I personally am puzzled by the lack of clear information from the STS company of why one thing or another should cause anything. But as long as Dave has an idea, that seems the best way to go.

For others here is an article that I read back when it came out in 2011 that was interesting at least.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ctrp_1106_turbo_camshaft_guide/viewall.html

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 08:16 AM
I know Dave is already working on solving the problem for you. I personally am puzzled by the lack of clear information from the STS company of why one thing or another should cause anything. But as long as Dave has an idea, that seems the best way to go.



Actually they had a lot to say and so did Comp Cams. I beleive Dave said they didnt agree on everything. I think Dave put 2 + 2 together and put together specs for a cam that will work for me. I put my money on Dave since he has been spot on with my engine building and tuning. I think everyone did agree that the cam I now have while being an excellent choice for a supercharged car is a mile off for working with a turbo.

Corey: Whats with the Maybe a black turbo car at the shootout. You dont know???

Ken

neverfastenough
07-16-2014, 08:45 AM
The car will be ready, not sure if my enthusiasm level will be. I'd need to get some drag wheels for the back too.



Actually they had a lot to say and so did Comp Cams. I beleive Dave said they didnt agree on everything. I think Dave put 2 + 2 together and put together specs for a cam that will work for me. I put my money on Dave since he has been spot on with my engine building and tuning. I think everyone did agree that the cam I now have while being an excellent choice for a supercharged car is a mile off for working with a turbo.

Corey: Whats with the Maybe a black turbo car at the shootout. You dont know???

Ken

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 09:05 AM
The car will be ready, not sure if my enthusiasm level will be. I'd need to get some drag wheels for the back too.

Sounds like you are getting hooked on the bike:D I hope to have a car that is competive with the big dogs. Dont think I will be as fast as some like vining, keith or kevin if he is there, but I think I can tackle ryan and kurt:D

Ken

Kurt K
07-16-2014, 09:41 AM
....but I think I can tackle ryan and kurt:D

Ken

I'll be waiting for you
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at the finish line :D

Seriously though, I just hope you finally have all of the bugs worked out so you can enjoy the even.

BirdofPrey97
07-16-2014, 09:47 AM
Ken, shoot me the price for the cam. Have a stock 89 5spd I can trade. :)

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 10:02 AM
I'll be waiting for you
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at the finish line :D

Seriously though, I just hope you finally have all of the bugs worked out so you can enjoy the even.

#1 on the bucket list is to have a running car and running down the track.
#2 is to have it perform and run some fast times.
#3 is to have fun and enjoy the event as you said

Ken

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 10:15 AM
Ken, shoot me the price for the cam. Have a stock 89 5spd I can trade. :)

New it would go for 375.00, I would like to get 200.00
for it. That helps soften the price of the new cam. Dont know what I would do with a stock cam. I would also consider if you have the engine setup to run the cam. Would the the valve springs be up to the job.

Ken

BLOWN38
07-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Good luck Ken.

Um I think Bird o Pray is looking at some shiney heads too.;)

David Neibert
07-16-2014, 11:19 AM
Ken,

Looking forward to seeing how it runs with the new cam. For what it's worth I've also put my faith in Dave Dalke to specify a new cam and valve train package for the v8 turbocharged motor out of my 93 SC that he is currently rebuilding/upgrading.

David

PS: I'm bringing my 91 SC to the 2014 Shootout and will be looking forward to lining up with you and Corey.

BirdofPrey97
07-16-2014, 11:32 AM
New it would go for 375.00, I would like to get 200.00
for it. That helps soften the price of the new cam. Dont know what I would do with a stock cam. I would also consider if you have the engine setup to run the cam. Would the the valve springs be up to the job.

Ken

Giving you a hard time about the stock cam since in earlier post they said a stock cam would have given more power. No the current heads are not, but with this MPX and OD and FMIC installed heads are cam are next on the list. Use to my Chevy parts and these SC parts are EXPENSIVE, so I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Mrs is the main challenge and something about keeping the kids fed.?.?.

Toms-SC
07-16-2014, 11:39 AM
The car will be ready, not sure if my enthusiasm level will be. I'd need to get some drag wheels for the back too.

I feel you on the enthusiasm thing. I'm drained.

pro street rich
07-16-2014, 03:17 PM
With all of these upgrades going on I will have to dust off something and bring my "A" game this year. I know Scott is looking forward to repeating his last years goal and now I got to get my butt in gear and bring something....Rich

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 03:48 PM
I feel you on the enthusiasm thing. I'm drained.

I really felt that way at the beginning of the year. The turbo project took so much more time and funds than I dreamed of. I was weary of the constant work on it. I havent work much on the car this year as in the past. I am getting more excited to finish up the engine with the cam and all. Lucky for me I have a good SC friend who has worked on it as well to help it along. I think I will be a lot more excited after the cam is in.

Ken

David Neibert
07-16-2014, 04:08 PM
I feel you on the enthusiasm thing. I'm drained.

Would it help if I told you there was gonna be a Jacob Royer fan club wet t-shirt contest ??

David

kenewagner
07-16-2014, 04:49 PM
Would it help if I told you there was gonna be a Jacob Royer fan club wet t-shirt contest ??

David

Will Tom get to enter:D:D:D


Ken

Jacob_Royer
07-16-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm down if Randy's girlfriend is going to be in it!

1FSTBRD
07-21-2014, 12:19 AM
I really felt that way at the beginning of the year. The turbo project took so much more time and funds than I dreamed of. I was weary of the constant work on it. I havent work much on the car this year as in the past. I am getting more excited to finish up the engine with the cam and all. Lucky for me I have a good SC friend who has worked on it as well to help it along. I think I will be a lot more excited after the cam is in.

Ken

It sounds like you've definetely reached a point where all the time and frustration is getting to you. I can only imagine the work that would go into a twin turbo setup, but look at it this way.....you could have bought an engine and setup like that, where it was all troubleshooted beforehand, but it wouldn't be nearly as personal. It's all that sweat equity--and frustration--that really makes it that much more satisfying at the end of the process.

kenewagner
07-21-2014, 08:25 AM
It sounds like you've definetely reached a point where all the time and frustration is getting to you. I can only imagine the work that would go into a twin turbo setup, but look at it this way.....you could have bought an engine and setup like that, where it was all troubleshooted beforehand, but it wouldn't be nearly as personal. It's all that sweat equity--and frustration--that really makes it that much more satisfying at the end of the process.


Im pretty much past the fustration of the build. Although I had to tear the engine down yesterday. Installed a new cam and am in process of reassembling it. A lot of my fustration included selling my house and not haveing another house to move into so I am in limbo there, changes in work and just day by day problems. I am getting pretty fired up now with the combo coming together and hopefully it will make some sick numbers


ken

neverfastenough
07-21-2014, 08:44 AM
When is it going back on the rollers?

davec73
07-21-2014, 08:45 AM
It will do great Ken! I can definitely understand the frustration part as well with my car. It has taken since sept of 2011 to get my car from where it was to where it is now with tremendous amounts of help from ALOT of people, you being one of the biggest. You took time out away from yours to make sure mine was complete by this spring and I will never forget it buddy.

kenewagner
07-21-2014, 08:59 AM
When is it going back on the rollers?

Got the cam in yesterday, bleed down all the lifters and installed them, pushrods and started setting rocker clearances. Have to shim three pedestals. Basicly need to finish assembling the top end. New wastegate springs are ordered and should be here by the first of next week. I have a couple of things to do while I am at this stage of dissassembly. I will reroute the lower radiator water line so it doesnt go through the belt. Have to hook up a tq strap to control engine movement. I figure I will have a running car before the end of the month. At that point I will take some time off the first week of Aug to dyno the car. At least thats the plan. And when does your animal hit the rollers????

Ken

neverfastenough
07-21-2014, 09:46 AM
I started mine over the weekend. Got it starting and idling pretty quickly considering the large injectors and a pretty extreme for a SC camshaft.. Upon fillling the cooling system, I had some presssure build up behind the tstat since I skipped out on a bypass. Ended up blowing a bunch of coolant out while trying to fill it. Motor started stumbling right around the same time and died, It restarted but ran very poorly, and then wouldnt restart after that. I assumed an intake manifold leak and water causing the stumble so I drained the oil, yanked the plugs and intake to do a little inspection. No evidence of anything wrong there. Waiting on gaskets now and plan to attempt a refire on Wed. This time without a tstat. Pissed at myself for not getting a data log, and being unprepapared, Im sure the motor got really hot, just hoping all is well.

Plus side, the wheels look great outside, and it sounds very agressive

Ira R.
07-21-2014, 12:37 PM
Ken,

Looking forward to seeing how it runs with the new cam. For what it's worth I've also put my faith in Dave Dalke to specify a new cam and valve train package for the v8 turbocharged motor out of my 93 SC that he is currently rebuilding/upgrading.

David

PS: I'm bringing my 91 SC to the 2014 Shootout and will be looking forward to lining up with you and Corey.

Will Dave have it ready in time?? Wait, am I confusing the two cars again? I thought you had a problem with that engine :confused:


Ira

1FSTBRD
07-21-2014, 01:33 PM
Im pretty much past the fustration of the build. Although I had to tear the engine down yesterday. Installed a new cam and am in process of reassembling it. A lot of my fustration included selling my house and not haveing another house to move into so I am in limbo there, changes in work and just day by day problems. I am getting pretty fired up now with the combo coming together and hopefully it will make some sick numbers


ken

Yeah, this twin turbo when it's running should put down some insane power. What are you hoping for--being in the 10's? I'd bought one of your double intercoolers, used, off another member here and had installed it about a week ago. Even when the car is at operating temps, it stays lukewarm to the touch, and the intercooler tubing is all lukewarm to the touch, too. Great job on making these!

kenewagner
07-21-2014, 02:08 PM
Yeah, this twin turbo when it's running should put down some insane power. What are you hoping for--being in the 10's? I'd bought one of your double intercoolers, used, off another member here and had installed it about a week ago. Even when the car is at operating temps, it stays lukewarm to the touch, and the intercooler tubing is all lukewarm to the touch, too. Great job on making these!

Would very much like to run in the 10 sec bracket:D

Ken

David Neibert
07-24-2014, 11:49 AM
Will Dave have it ready in time?? Wait, am I confusing the two cars again? I thought you had a problem with that engine :confused:


Ira

Ira,

I'm talking about the v8 turbo motor from my black SC. It dropped a valve and did a bunch of damage back in November. Brought the motor to Dave's shop back in April for repair and some upgrades. I'll probably get it back in August.

David

Ira R.
07-24-2014, 11:52 AM
Ira,

I'm talking about the v8 turbo motor from my black SC. It dropped a valve and did a bunch of damage back in November. Brought the motor to Dave's shop back in April for repair and some upgrades. I'll probably get it back in August.

David

Good to hear.

Ira

neverfastenough
07-24-2014, 11:54 AM
Mine runs again, Ken. Your turn now!

kenewagner
07-24-2014, 02:16 PM
Mine runs again, Ken. Your turn now!

Almost back together, wont have new wastegate springs untill late next week to install. Im pretty sure mine will be pretty tame compared to yours. When are you running it for tuning and numbers?


Ken

davec73
07-24-2014, 02:20 PM
Almost back together, wont have new wastegate springs untill late next week to install. Im pretty sure mine will be pretty tame compared to yours. When are you running it for tuning and numbers?


Ken
Get that beast together!

neverfastenough
07-24-2014, 02:29 PM
Almost back together, wont have new wastegate springs untill late next week to install. Im pretty sure mine will be pretty tame compared to yours. When are you running it for tuning and numbers?


Ken

Not quite sure yet, still needs an alignment, and a few other things before its worthy to road tune. I need to put some smaller wg springs in to keep me from blowing it up:eek:

kenewagner
07-24-2014, 02:37 PM
Not quite sure yet, still needs an alignment, and a few other things before its worthy to road tune. I need to put some smaller wg springs in to keep me from blowing it up:eek:

What boost level are you expecting to run and what is your expectations for numbers generally speaking. The new springs I am installing will give me 20lbs of boost without the controller

Ken

neverfastenough
07-24-2014, 02:43 PM
What boost level are you expecting to run and what is your expectations for numbers generally speaking. The new springs I am installing will give me 20lbs of boost without the controller

Ken

Im going to put a 10lb spring in now and see what that gets me. If the gate can hold it back to where im comfortable to go wot on 93 octane, ill get it street tuned and wot tuned with very low timing, in preperation for the dyno. I plan to go to the dyno with a bunch of springs, and arrive with 93 in the tank. I'll go for a safe 93 tune, probably mid 500's Im guessing. Then e85 will go in and some larger springs. Ill probably end up at 25+ psi on that, with a goal of 750 or so. I dont have my hopes up. I think its going to run out of turbo before that, but we'll see. The dyno has been a dream crusher in the past, but I belive dalke has determined why it was so mean, so whatever number it makes should be close. Im sure it will still pick up on a dynojet tho.

kenewagner
07-24-2014, 03:36 PM
Im going to put a 10lb spring in now and see what that gets me. If the gate can hold it back to where im comfortable to go wot on 93 octane, ill get it street tuned and wot tuned with very low timing, in preperation for the dyno. I plan to go to the dyno with a bunch of springs, and arrive with 93 in the tank. I'll go for a safe 93 tune, probably mid 500's Im guessing. Then e85 will go in and some larger springs. Ill probably end up at 25+ psi on that, with a goal of 750 or so. I dont have my hopes up. I think its going to run out of turbo before that, but we'll see. The dyno has been a dream crusher in the past, but I belive dalke has determined why it was so mean, so whatever number it makes should be close. Im sure it will still pick up on a dynojet tho.

Are you running a larger turbo or the one you have always had. I thought you might be going after Caseys power number:D


Ken

neverfastenough
07-24-2014, 03:43 PM
Are you running a larger turbo or the one you have always had. I thought you might be going after Caseys power number:D


Ken

still the 6766, rated to 935 hp, but thats a perfect world

XR7 Dave
07-24-2014, 04:46 PM
You are already talking ~~~~ about Kevin's dyno and downplaying your #'s. :rolleyes:

BTW, don't recommend coming to the dyno and expecting to tune on E85 unless you've already street tuned it with E85. Unless you just like spending money on dyno time.

neverfastenough
07-24-2014, 05:08 PM
Hey now, read again I said whatever it puts down on his Dyno will be right, and that it's now known to be accurate.

I'll get a e85 Street tune done

JT's03
07-24-2014, 07:05 PM
still the 6766, rated to 935 hp, but thats a perfect world

I can see 750rwhp out of that turbo judging by how my precision turbo performed.My 6262 with 63 ar made north of 500rwhp (judging by trap speeds) on pump gas timing and boost. It's rated at 705hp and I think I could have got it to 600rwhp trap speeds all in. Race weight of 3450 with 17x9 chrome bullets 16psi 16* timing it went 103mph a few times. If I had someone at the track like Dave helping I think it could have went 108-110 all in. That turbo is long gone now.

XxSlowpokexX
07-28-2014, 10:17 PM
Id be interested to see what the difference in Cam philosophy shows dyno wise. Good luck Ken!!!

CMac89
07-30-2014, 03:30 PM
Ken, what turbos are you using and what are their sizes? I would also recommend logging the exhaust pressure, which will tell you where to look beyond the cam.

kenewagner
07-30-2014, 04:03 PM
Ken, what turbos are you using and what are their sizes? I would also recommend logging the exhaust pressure, which will tell you where to look beyond the cam.

They are precision turbos, 48MM ball bearing. We have done all the pressure tests on the exhaust. The new cam is in that Dave Dalke speced for me after inturpting the results of the testing. One of the problems that has surfaced is the wastgate springs. They are not staying closed and are beeding off my exhaust. Getting the right springs has turned into a pain as STS said the springs they sent me are not right. It seems I have an older version. The wastegates are 38MM Ultra gates. They have the socket heads around the outside of the cap holding the top on. I am looking to install 20lb springs and not running a boost controller. There are a few minor tweaks being made as well

Ken

neverfastenough
07-30-2014, 06:19 PM
Do work Ken, waste gates can be a pain, I have an 8lb in mine and it's making 18 lol

CMac89
07-31-2014, 10:53 AM
I meant more along the lines of engine performance. Do you know the turbine exducer size (the part of the wheel you can see from the exhaust out side)? That has every bit to do with how much power the engine can make as well. What were the results of the pressure test and where was the pressure read?

gogo5.0
08-01-2014, 03:55 AM
I have the pressure vids up on my YouTube. Search for TheSCbenny.

benny

David Neibert
08-04-2014, 12:40 PM
They are precision turbos, 48MM ball bearing. We have done all the pressure tests on the exhaust. The new cam is in that Dave Dalke speced for me after inturpting the results of the testing. One of the problems that has surfaced is the wastgate springs. They are not staying closed and are beeding off my exhaust. Getting the right springs has turned into a pain as STS said the springs they sent me are not right. It seems I have an older version. The wastegates are 38MM Ultra gates. They have the socket heads around the outside of the cap holding the top on. I am looking to install 20lb springs and not running a boost controller. There are a few minor tweaks being made as well

Ken

Ken,

So how does it run with the new cam ?

BTW, There are ways to plumb the wastegates to the boost controller (s) that will make as much boost as you want. I'm using two manual controllers and my wastegate only has a 6 pound spring, and I can make 30 pounds of boost.

David

kenewagner
08-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Ken,

So how does it run with the new cam ?

BTW, There are ways to plumb the wastegates to the boost controller (s) that will make as much boost as you want. I'm using two manual controllers and my wastegate only has a 6 pound spring, and I can make 30 pounds of boost.

David

Dont know yet. Worked on it Sunday and am close to starting it up. There were a few items to rework while I had it apart and they are finished up. Have to chang oil and add some more fluids. Will be starting in sometime this week and running the same tests as I ran before. Than I will schedule it for the dyno to see what it will pull.

Ken

kenewagner
08-06-2014, 08:20 PM
Well I took off early from work today. Benny and I finished topping off fluids. We drained the oil pan to get the antifreeze out of the oil. Changed oil, filter. Got in and turned the key and it fired right up. Ran smooth and flawless. 60lbs of oil pressure at idle, no leaks or problems. Would have loved to take it out for a spin but it has rained all day and thats all it would have done is spin. Have to thank Benny for all his hard work turning wrenches and solving problems. Hope to find out soon what improvements in performance it has.

Ken

superdadsc
08-06-2014, 08:37 PM
That is awesome Ken and I wish you the best. Your car is awesome and it will be a beast for sure!!

superdadsc
08-06-2014, 08:57 PM
That is awesome Ken and I wish you the best. Your car is awesome and it will be a beast for sure!!

kenewagner
08-06-2014, 09:43 PM
That is awesome Ken and I wish you the best. Your car is awesome and it will be a beast for sure!!

Hope your right:D

Ken

David Neibert
08-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Well I took off early from work today. Benny and I finished topping off fluids. We drained the oil pan to get the antifreeze out of the oil. Changed oil, filter. Got in and turned the key and it fired right up. Ran smooth and flawless. 60lbs of oil pressure at idle, no leaks or problems. Would have loved to take it out for a spin but it has rained all day and thats all it would have done is spin. Have to thank Benny for all his hard work turning wrenches and solving problems. Hope to find out soon what improvements in performance it has.

Ken

Ken,

Congrats...It's always nice to have it fire right up after having it all torn apart. Looking forward to hearing how it runs after these changes. Did you already change the waste gate springs ?

David

kenewagner
08-07-2014, 03:54 PM
Ken,

Congrats...It's always nice to have it fire right up after having it all torn apart. Looking forward to hearing how it runs after these changes. Did you already change the waste gate springs ?

David


No I havent changed the springs yet. I wanted to take it out on the road and see what the pressure numbers are in the exhaust ahead of the turbos vs boost pressure to compare apples to apples as nothing has changed but the cam. Am trying to schedule it in to the dyno on the 18 to the 22. Cant do anything next week due to work.

Ken

davec73
08-07-2014, 04:24 PM
That's great news Ken congratulations buddy!

kenewagner
08-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Well the rain went away for awhile allowing some seat time in the car. I kept the boost to less than 14 lbs. Previously the exhaust pressure before the turbos was pegging a 30lb gauge. Today pressure never exceeded 16lbs on the gauge. Spooling came on much quicker than before. Im pretty sure everyone with a supercharger will still beat me off the line:rolleyes: Once it spools though its a wild ride. Tomorrow the new springs will go into the wastegates. That should make it down right scary:D Dyno time is scheduled later this month. Would like to do it much sooner but work schedule is not good. Only hitch today was pulling back into Bennys place it started leaking antifreeze. turned out to be a lower hose clamp wasnt square on the hose. easy fix. Car drives nicely and has a good exhaust note with the SS Bora mufflers.

Ken

90blkbrd
08-09-2014, 10:23 PM
Sounds promising.

David Neibert
08-09-2014, 10:45 PM
Ken,

Full manual VB with trans brake will get the car off the line just fine. I really didn't want a full manual in my car either, but after installing one I loved it.

David

kenewagner
08-10-2014, 04:27 PM
Ken,

Full manual VB with trans brake will get the car off the line just fine. I really didn't want a full manual in my car either, but after installing one I loved it.

David


What transmission do you have in your turbo car? How is the transmission brake set up? So you shift through all the gears all the time? I found a lentech manual AOD valve body on their web site. It eliminates the TV cable. Very pricey, is that what you recommend

Ken

JT's03
08-10-2014, 08:54 PM
Nitrous will spool those turbos no problem. What scavenge pump are you using? I'm in the market with my new turbo orientation( low mount).

kenewagner
08-10-2014, 11:25 PM
Nitrous will spool those turbos no problem. What scavenge pump are you using? I'm in the market with my new turbo orientation( low mount).


The dual pumps came with the kit from STS. They have STS on them but I dont know what brand they are. Will have to look and see. Dont plan on nitrous at the moment. I want to see how the car performs on the track first. Im sure it will continue to evolve.

Ken

David Neibert
08-11-2014, 12:21 PM
What transmission do you have in your turbo car? How is the transmission brake set up? So you shift through all the gears all the time? I found a lentech manual AOD valve body on their web site. It eliminates the TV cable. Very pricey, is that what you recommend

Ken

It's an AOD that started as a Lentech Strip Terminator that was rated for 1000 HP. I broke it racing the car down in KY at one of the KY HP spring meets, and dropped the car off at Alan's shop for a complete rebuild and numerous upgrades, so now it's a Dirtydog max effort AOD that includes everything Alan could throw at it.

Yes...I'm using the same Lentech manual VB you mentioned. Fixed line pressure, electric OD engage, no TV cable, manually shifted up and down, with trans brake and most importantly includes Reverse/ 3rd torque holding mod that is patented by Lentech. Trans brake can only be engaged in 1st gear, and for best results needs to be wired into an adjustable 2 step rev limiter like I have with the MSD digital 6 box.

David

kenewagner
08-11-2014, 12:43 PM
It's an AOD that started as a Lentech Strip Terminator that was rated for 1000 HP. I broke it racing the car down in KY at one of the KY HP spring meets, and dropped the car off at Alan's shop for a complete rebuild and numerous upgrades, so now it's a Dirtydog max effort AOD that includes everything Alan could throw at it.

Yes...I'm using the same Lentech manual VB you mentioned. Fixed line pressure, electric OD engage, no TV cable, manually shifted up and down, with trans brake and most importantly includes Reverse/ 3rd torque holding mod that is patented by Lentech. Trans brake can only be engaged in 1st gear, and for best results needs to be wired into an adjustable 2 step rev limiter like I have with the MSD digital 6 box.

David

Priced on Lentech page is 750 buck a roos. That will have to wait awhile I guess. Not sure Where to go on the two step. A lot of this is pretty new for a newbe like me. What the stall on your black ones transmission. Did you ever change rear end gears or are you running 3.73s still

Ken

David Neibert
08-11-2014, 12:59 PM
Priced on Lentech page is 750 buck a roos. That will have to wait awhile I guess. Not sure Where to go on the two step. A lot of this is pretty new for a newbe like me. What the stall on your black ones transmission. Did you ever change rear end gears or are you running 3.73s still

Ken

Yes the Lentech VB is pricey, but it's the best. Alan built a new converter to go with the transmission and stall is around 3300-3500 rpm but can be launched well above that on the trans brake. Still running 3.73s and switched to a larger diameter slick to keep from running out of rpm in the 1/4 mile. New motor Dave is building will be able to rev higher than my old one, so I should be able to get to around 145 mph with the 3.73s.

David

kenewagner
08-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Yes the Lentech VB is pricey, but it's the best. Alan built a new converter to go with the transmission and stall is around 3300-3500 rpm but can be launched well above that on the trans brake. Still running 3.73s and switched to a larger diameter slick to keep from running out of rpm in the 1/4 mile. New motor Dave is building will be able to rev higher than my old one, so I should be able to get to around 145 mph with the 3.73s.

David

Well the shootouts almost here so what ever the car does performance is a mute issue. The valve body sounds interesting as I think getting off the line is going to be the down fall of its performance. The 9.5" converter I have is a 3000 stall. Guess I will spend some time learning from you, casey and corey this year

Ken

BLOWN38
08-11-2014, 06:01 PM
My diesel truck does just fine foot braking the boost up. Just pre stage then bring the boost up as much as you can on the foot brake then just bump it in to stage by releasing the brake slightly. Hell thats what I do with the blower car.

Good luck with it Ken.

JT's03
08-11-2014, 06:03 PM
The dual pumps came with the kit from STS. They have STS on them but I dont know what brand they are. Will have to look and see. Dont plan on nitrous at the moment. I want to see how the car performs on the track first. Im sure it will continue to evolve.

Ken

I'll check their site out. I'm at the point to either drop the coin on on trans brake or spray it into boost. Got to try the new turbo out before making any decisions but I'm thinking it's going to be lazy on my combo.

kenewagner
08-22-2014, 11:15 PM
Took the car back to the dyno today. 98 degrees and 1000% humidity. Made just 3 pulls. Car makes the same HP #s as the old cam. nothing gained there:mad: Turbos spooled much faster was my only gain. I do have much better vacuum so brakes are much approved. Car starts and runs perfectly so thats a plus. Pretty tired of putting money in to this and not seeing something come of it. Dyno operator feels the engine and power adder are not the problem, feels the non locking TQ is the problem and no gains on the dyno will show untill I get rid of it. Have to see if the track performance suffers or improves. Wouldnt care what the numbers were if it ran a 10 second 1/4 mile but I dont see that happening. Most guys would be happy to have a 450 horse motor but that pretty sorry #s for a twin turbo. A big block motor is sounding better all the time:rolleyes:

Ken

Mike8675309
08-22-2014, 11:21 PM
Dyno operator feels the engine and power adder are not the problem, feels the non locking TQ is the problem and no gains on the dyno will show untill I get rid of it.
...
A big block motor is sounding better all the time:rolleyes:

Ken

A big block motor wouldn't solve the problem of the TQ not locking would it?
All I can say is a manual transmission is so much easier when it comes to know what is going on when you press the gas pedal to the floor. sorry to hear of your ongoing challenges.

neverfastenough
08-22-2014, 11:33 PM
How's it feel on the street, Ken? Switching converters isn't going to add 100+ rwhp or something crazy. Can you send me one of your data logs, what maf are you running, what's your injector duty cycle? I'm thinking you can acquire enough information from your fuel and air requirements to get a rough estimate of crank horsepower.

Kurt K
08-22-2014, 11:39 PM
It is possible it will perform much better at the track than the numbers indicate....mine seems to.

kenewagner
08-22-2014, 11:45 PM
A big block motor wouldn't solve the problem of the TQ not locking would it?
All I can say is a manual transmission is so much easier when it comes to know what is going on when you press the gas pedal to the floor. sorry to hear of your ongoing challenges.

If I ever did change to a big block the AOD wouldnt be part of the package.

Car feels extremely strong on the street. Almost like having a rocket strapped on to the rear when it goes into boost. It seems to load the engine which I think the dyno doesnt get done

Ken

neverfastenough
08-22-2014, 11:46 PM
We actually had to add extra load to mine on the Dyno, from 3800 to I believe 4500lbs

JT's03
08-23-2014, 11:12 AM
A locking converter can add over 100rwhp Corey. My bone stock motor with bone stock converter on 11psi with a procharger went from 225rwhp unlocked to 311rwhp locked.

Ken, can you log actual slip like the mustangs or can you calculate and post it? Btw my motor was making 520rwhp(estimated) and the maf counts were 830s with hpx slot maf. You need to take it to the track and go by mph because there is no way you are going to the actual power from a non locking converter on the dyno.

mywhite89
08-23-2014, 11:33 AM
How much boost were you making? Did you play around with boost any?

kenewagner
08-23-2014, 12:00 PM
How much boost were you making? Did you play around with boost any?

Waste gates are set up with 21lb springs. First run boost was 17 to 18 lbs. I cant find the sheet, probably still in the car. Adjusted the controller and it was like 22lbs and I started having spark issues. I will have to find the dyno sheet before I make an accurate statement. I dont think the dyno was loading the tq converter like it would be on the street. Its hard to find out diffrently cause we keep getting massive amounts of rain here. The dyno operator felt I was giving up massive hp and wasting my time on the dyno with the non locking converter. I find it interesting that with the whipple, the turbo with the old cam, and the turbo with the new cam I hit a wall on hp at about the same HP level and the one thing that is consistantly part of the equation is the nonlocking converter. Trying to get my mind around a logical conclusion.

Ken

davec73
08-23-2014, 04:12 PM
Waste gates are set up with 21lb springs. First run boost was 17 to 18 lbs. I cant find the sheet, probably still in the car. Adjusted the controller and it was like 22lbs and I started having spark issues. I will have to find the dyno sheet before I make an accurate statement. I dont think the dyno was loading the tq converter like it would be on the street. Its hard to find out diffrently cause we keep getting massive amounts of rain here. The dyno operator felt I was giving up massive hp and wasting my time on the dyno with the non locking converter. I find it interesting that with the whipple, the turbo with the old cam, and the turbo with the new cam I hit a wall on hp at about the same HP level and the one thing that is consistantly part of the equation is the nonlocking converter. Trying to get my mind around a logical conclusion.

Ken

You will figure it out Ken I know exactly how you feel unfortunately

XR7 Dave
08-24-2014, 09:49 AM
A non locking converter does not eat up 100hp. On a properly tuned engine making back to back comparison runs using a converter that can be commanded locked and unlocked, the power difference is in the 15-20hp range. I could dig out plenty of dyno sheets to back that up but I'm not going to take the time.

It's not the converter. If you have spark blow out you can't tune and you sure as hell can't use the dyno sheets for anything other than toilet paper. Also, if the dyno can't load the engine then you are wasting your time.

90blkbrd
08-24-2014, 10:17 AM
Also, if the dyno can't load the engine then you are wasting your time.

Like
Like
Like

JT's03
08-24-2014, 10:24 AM
A non locking converter does not eat up 100hp. On a properly tuned engine making back to back comparison runs using a converter that can be commanded locked and unlocked, the power difference is in the 15-20hp range. I could dig out plenty of dyno sheets to back that up but I'm not going to take the time.

It's not the converter. If you have spark blow out you can't tune and you sure as hell can't use the dyno sheets for anything other than toilet paper. Also, if the dyno can't load the engine then you are wasting your time.

Dave, this has been a big debate on the net for years on how the converter performs on a dyno. Weather it be a set amount of hp or a percentage. Despite your experience tuning on the dyno I still respectfully disagree. I have seen otherwise what a non locking converter can do. I have seen this on a dedicated 8th mile race car and big hp street/strip car.

I do not know a thing about Ken's converter in his car but I would assume it is tight for the power curve the blower made thus making Dave's statement true for the 15-20hp loss.

XR7 Dave
08-24-2014, 04:29 PM
Dave, this has been a big debate on the net for years on how the converter performs on a dyno. Weather it be a set amount of hp or a percentage. Despite your experience tuning on the dyno I still respectfully disagree. I have seen otherwise what a non locking converter can do. I have seen this on a dedicated 8th mile race car and big hp street/strip car.

I do not know a thing about Ken's converter in his car but I would assume it is tight for the power curve the blower made thus making Dave's statement true for the 15-20hp loss.

Statements like this combined with the fact that Ken hasn't even bothered to post his before and after dyno sheets make me wonder why I bother.

JT's03
08-24-2014, 06:15 PM
Ken, I would run the thing down the track and see what it does for mph and et. Then go from there on converter decisions. If you look on v6p Henry's 4.3l(project frost bite) he dyno'd what I'd consider low for the 134mph traps he run bouncing off the rev limiter.

It's all good Dave. Just commenting on the statement the converter could be suspect for the low dyno numbers.

kenewagner
08-24-2014, 07:25 PM
Statements like this combined with the fact that Ken hasn't even bothered to post his before and after dyno sheets make me wonder why I bother.


I don't have the sheets at the moment one is with the car at Benny's the other at work. Benny will post the latest and tomorrow I will post the one with Dave tuning

Ken

kenewagner
08-24-2014, 07:28 PM
Ken, I would run the thing down the track and see what it does for mph and et. Then go from there on converter decisions. If you look on v6p Henry's 4.3l(project frost bite) he dyno'd what I'd consider low for the 134mph traps he run bouncing off the rev limiter.

It's all good Dave. Just commenting on the statement the converter could be suspect for the low dyno numbers.

I just wonder if the converter can't handle the power or the tranny has slipping bands

Ken

neverfastenough
08-24-2014, 08:08 PM
Can you post a data log?

XR7 Dave
08-24-2014, 08:08 PM
Ken, I would run the thing down the track and see what it does for mph and et. Then go from there on converter decisions. If you look on v6p Henry's 4.3l(project frost bite) he dyno'd what I'd consider low for the 134mph traps he run bouncing off the rev limiter.

It's all good Dave. Just commenting on the statement the converter could be suspect for the low dyno numbers.

I think you are throwing him a complete curve, but whatever. Henry's 4.3L made just around 520rwhp, weighs 2800lbs w/o driver and ran 9.99 @ 134mph. I'd say that is actually a high HP estimate for the ET/mph especially considering Kevin ran 10.0 in a heavier car with nowhere near 500rwhp. When I say something I base my statements off of data acquisition and experience, not opinions but people are free to take what I say with thoughtfulness or they can blow it off it's their choice.

Ken's numbers are not low. He just seems to looking for a magic pill that isn't there. I also think that making the statement that his results are "piss poor" before fixing his mechanical problems and properly evaluating things is bad form. People trying to offer advice prematurely here is also counter productive. I am not offering any advice because so far all I have to go on is his apparent disappointment.

Like I said, it's disappointing when people get upset so easily when things don't seem to pan out the first time or even the 2nd time. Ken should be pleased, not disappointed.

gogo5.0
08-24-2014, 11:02 PM
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac194/gogo5_0/Mobile%20Uploads/20140824_155217.jpg

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac194/gogo5_0/Mobile%20Uploads/20140824_155059.jpg

Here are the sheets from Friday's session.

benny

neverfastenough
08-24-2014, 11:18 PM
Wow, that's not a proper boost curve, that's like some centrifugal super charger stuff! boost should hit like a freight train. My car if you floor it at 2500rpm will make a lb to two, then by 3k 5psi or so, then by 3500 you better hold on to something, 3800-4000 it's 25-26 until I take my foot out if it.

61689

I'd actually like a quicker ramp than this but you get the idea, it hits like a shot of nitrous and then levels when the wg opens. Some things wrong if you ask me. How does the power comes on on the street Ken? It should be violent, like you hear a little sssssssssss from the turbo and then tires are up in smoke, literally violent.

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 11:58 AM
Wow, that's not a proper boost curve, that's like some centrifugal super charger stuff! boost should hit like a freight train. My car if you floor it at 2500rpm will make a lb to two, then by 3k 5psi or so, then by 3500 you better hold on to something, 3800-4000 it's 25-26 until I take my foot out if it.

61689

I'd actually like a quicker ramp than this but you get the idea, it hits like a shot of nitrous and then levels when the wg opens. Some things wrong if you ask me. How does the power comes on on the street Ken? It should be violent, like you hear a little sssssssssss from the turbo and then tires are up in smoke, literally violent.

Nope its not like that. Car feels like a naturally aspriated motor untill the boost starts to hit. Than the car just accellerates untill its screaming down the road. It doesnt even break the tires loose at any point. It feels real strong above 4500 rpm but dead below that. Boost doesnt just come on suddely or violently its just lininar in its feel. I went from 421 rwhp with the whipple, to adding only about 25 hp, on the top end. Even the tq sucks, less that the whipple. I know I have to keep working on solving the problem and with help I hope to find the problem. The new cam should have mad more HP, but made less. Theres something going on and I am missing it somehow.


Ken61695

neverfastenough
08-25-2014, 12:44 PM
You have something wrong, I'm guessing wg or Bov related. Is the Controller in the car at all or is it completely removed and on spring only?

92bird
08-25-2014, 12:50 PM
What turbine wheel and exhaust housing ratio are the turbos?

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 12:58 PM
You have something wrong, I'm guessing wg or Bov related. Is the Controller in the car at all or is it completely removed and on spring only?

The controller is hooked up and can add boost still. The BOV I know little to nothing about. I ran it like the book said, a simple vacuum line to the upper intake, distance is about 14 inches. but if there was something wrong with the BOV I would not have a clue. I have wondered if the boost controller was not functioning as it is suppose to. I know something is wrong here I just cant get a handle on it. Once I find what is wrong I will probably be amazed at how I could make it so complicated.

Ken

neverfastenough
08-25-2014, 01:03 PM
Just to rule it out, if youre not using it, take the controller out of the car. If its not already setup this way, the wastegates should be plumbed directly to the compressor covers, not a line from the intake manifold. Next you need a way to verify that the BOV is staying shut. I guess the far distance from the motor and odd areas of convergence could slwo exhasut gas velocity enough to maybe do this, but that thing should hit hard. Mine runs like a geo metro pulling a camper, then at 3800rpm, oh baby ~~~~~ gettin serious.

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 01:04 PM
What turbine wheel and exhaust housing ratio are the turbos?


The turbo's are made by Precision for STS. The are 48mm / 60 trim, and the exhaust side is 57mm .36 A/R

Ken

Mike8675309
08-25-2014, 01:21 PM
Below is a link to a google spreadsheet that contains the data from kens two runs. I like to bring a USB stick to dyno runs and get the raw data copied onto the stick these days. I usually have to help the dyno operator do that.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1grqeKv_fdGyD0XHpoCv5g2-QC3oeMLsZBkryadgU1PU/edit?usp=sharing

Sorry that you are disappointed Ken. I guess I would be happy that things didn't blow up. Blazing trails is never easy with these cars. Really, never easy.

I assume you were seeing misfires over 5500 rpm which is why power dropped off. Was it happening sooner?

Do you feel the pressure you were seeing from the turbo is correct? It seemed to me that it was coming in a bit late. I understand your turbo setup was from STS? If so, what do they feel when they see your dyno charts? I wish we had an efficiency map for those turbos as well as knowledge of the Turbine and compressor AR's. I am not a fan of the lack of transparency in the STS kits in regards to the tech specs behind their kits and the various components.

Do you feel the boost measurements on the dyno are accurate? If so are you satisfied with how late the boost came in? Are you satisfied with the final boost number that it eventually got to?

Mike8675309
08-25-2014, 01:27 PM
The turbo's are made by Precision for STS. The are 48mm / 60 trim, and the exhaust side is 57mm .36 A/R

Ken

No hope for an efficiency map from them I take it?

neverfastenough
08-25-2014, 01:31 PM
Mike its not coming in late, dont look at it in excel as cells, plot that in a graph or look at the curve on his dyno sheet. Its not "coming in" at all its just slowly building. By the time Ken sees a lb or two on his boost gauge, he should be a blink away from 22psi. The turbos should take 500-800 to spool so for example, random numbers here, if hes at 1,2,3 lbs at 3000rpm by 3800rpm he should be full boost. Hense the word "hit", it should literally feel like a bomb went off behind the car.

XR7 Dave
08-25-2014, 02:07 PM
Mike its not coming in late, dont look at it in excel as cells, plot that in a graph or look at the curve on his dyno sheet. Its not "coming in" at all its just slowly building. By the time Ken sees a lb or two on his boost gauge, he should be a blink away from 22psi. The turbos should take 500-800 to spool so for example, random numbers here, if hes at 1,2,3 lbs at 3000rpm by 3800rpm he should be full boost. Hense the word "hit", it should literally feel like a bomb went off behind the car.You should do some research on rear mounted turbos before telling Ken to expect that. It's never going to "hit" like yours. I don't think anything is wrong, but there are a number of factors that need to optimized. If anyone thinks there is a magic pill they are going to be disappointed.

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 02:19 PM
Sorry that you are disappointed Ken. I guess I would be happy that things didn't blow up. Blazing trails is never easy with these cars. Really, never easy.

I assume you were seeing misfires over 5500 rpm which is why power dropped off. Was it happening sooner?

Do you feel the pressure you were seeing from the turbo is correct? It seemed to me that it was coming in a bit late. I understand your turbo setup was from STS? If so, what do they feel when they see your dyno charts? I wish we had an efficiency map for those turbos as well as knowledge of the Turbine and compressor AR's. I am not a fan of the lack of transparency in the STS kits in regards to the tech specs behind their kits and the various components.

Do you feel the boost measurements on the dyno are accurate? If so are you satisfied with how late the boost came in? Are you satisfied with the final boost number that it eventually got to?


It shows 20+ lbs of boost on top end. But Corey is right there is no hit of power. Its just a lininar increase of power that builds but doesnt come on at once. Tires dont even spin. I have not talked to STS yet. Im a little swamped at work and have so many irons in the fire, its hard to get anything done

neverfastenough
08-25-2014, 02:20 PM
You should do some research on rear mounted turbos before telling Ken to expect that. It's never going to "hit" like yours. I don't think anything is wrong, but there are a number of factors that need to optimized. If anyone thinks there is a magic pill they are going to be disappointed.


That could very well be true, and an extreme bummer at the same time. That's what makes a turbo car a turbo car:(

Toms-SC
08-25-2014, 02:55 PM
There is so much emphasis on the top HP/TQ numbers. What a ~~~~ show.

Ken, does the car feel as you want it too? If so, sounds like a successful project. You have a one of a kind, beautifully cared for SC. Congratulations.

I think I'm going to troll this place when my SVO project is done and never post dyno numbers.

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 03:34 PM
There is so much emphasis on the top HP/TQ numbers. What a ~~~~ show.

Ken, does the car feel as you want it too? If so, sounds like a successful project. You have a one of a kind, beautifully cared for SC. Congratulations.

I think I'm going to troll this place when my SVO project is done and never post dyno numbers.

The tubo setup was to be a fast spooling turbo. I should sneeze and the turbos should start spooling. I went backwards in the power curve. If I cant leave the starting line as fast as a supercharged car than one needs to have an advantage in HP & TQ to run the competition down and win the race. Hence the emphasis on HP & TQ The intention was alway to have a faster car than before. Now having said that I beleive the setup can be improved on but nobody is giving me a direction to begin tinkering with change.

Ken

PS Thanks for the kudos

neverfastenough
08-25-2014, 03:47 PM
Well if the bov and wg are working properly, the tune is on, no boost/exhaust leaks etc, I dont think there will be any tweaks that cause a major change, just some fine tuning. This might just be how a rear turbo car is, theres just so much plumbing in both directions. If thats the case and you're unhappy, Ill do anything I can to help you stick those things under the hood.

JT's03
08-25-2014, 08:55 PM
Ken, you are in unchartered territory running rear mount twins on this platform. As long as you are happy with the performance it makes that is all that matters. Imo 450rwhp is very respectful.

Speaking my opinion on it (not that it matters) I would have expected more power at 20+ psi and quicker spool out of this combo. I don't see how it's taking almost 3000rpm to spool 48mm turbos. A few things stand out to me as possible causes. It could be wastegate issues, boost leak (I don't run any type of bov btw), mismatch of turbo wheels, great volume of piping, or maybe just the nature of the beast. I don't think anything is wrong with your converter except maybe on the tight side.

On the street where is the converter flashing to? Once it builds boost does immediately flash the converter or is it taking time to get to the flash stall? I think getting the right converter behind this setup will do you wonders. I think this setup has a lot of potential and it's just a matter of getting everything working together.

JT's03
08-25-2014, 08:56 PM
Well if the bov and wg are working properly, the tune is on, no boost/exhaust leaks etc, I dont think there will be any tweaks that cause a major change, just some fine tuning. This might just be how a rear turbo car is, theres just so much plumbing in both directions. If thats the case and you're unhappy, Ill do anything I can to help you stick those things under the hood.


Great post! This is what it's about.

kenewagner
08-25-2014, 10:46 PM
I have been talking to STS turbo, they are going to think it through and offering suggestions, best I can expect. They feel the turbos should spool a lot faster and the power level is low. I am not happy with the performance so I need to work on it and figure it out.

Ken

pro street rich
08-25-2014, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=JT's03;1073433]Ken, you are in unchartered territory running rear mount twins on this platform. As long as you are happy with the performance it makes that is all that matters. Imo 450rwhp is very respectful.

There was a guy, Sir Walter, I think was his name that had a pair of rear mounts. He was somebody from the other SC group from the St Louis area... Someone from there might be able to add some light to this for you.. Otherwise Ken you still have a great looking car.. I have been staying out of this as I know very little about this kind of a set up. The only thing that I can add is the lag may very well be from all the pipe you need to fill before you get this thing spooled up. This I know from my diesel trucks and that is about all I know.. Just an idea, could there be a blockage of some kind on the pressure side?? Good luck and hope you find the issue and get it to the shoot out.....Rich

90blkbrd
08-26-2014, 10:04 AM
Now having said that I beleive the setup can be improved on but nobody is giving me a direction to begin tinkering with change.

I don't think anyone has enough information to be able to give you good advice right now.

CMac89
08-26-2014, 11:15 AM
I skipped over a bunch of stuff so sorry if I repeat something someone else said. Dave's right, it isn't the converter. That will have a percentage difference compared to a stick car, but that this isn't a power level where engines can blow through a converter. There are plenty of 6-7 second quarter mile cars that dyno 900hp and make 1400 crank hp, but that's for completely different reasons that nobody is running into at these power levels. Much too technical and lengthy to get into at the moment, though.

A disadvantage of running a rear-mounted turbo setup is that the length of added pipe increases the amount of time it takes for the hot side to create the pressures necessary for spooling. That negatively effects the boost ramping that Binks mentioned. Your motor spools the turbos pretty well, but if it was a short, underhood setup then as soon as it hits about 8-10psi it would have a steep boost ramp resulting in a quicker full boost event. This is a small issue, though. You need to adjust the converter to take advantage of your boost curve. If you're complaining about spool with an auto car you have the wrong gearing and converter.

Another thing, the most important information we can get is what the turbos are telling us. Turbos are mostly limited to their turbine housing. Excessive exhaust pressure can cause this. You should be targeting exhaust pressure anywhere from 1.25-1.75 times your boost level. It will still make power lower than that range, but spooling will suffer and it indicates your A/R is too large. If it is higher than that range then you have an A/R problem unless it's a large A/R, then you have the most underestimated problem with turbo sizing; the size of the exhaust wheel's exducer (the 66 part of a "6266" turbo for example) is too small for the engine. If the pressure fall in that range and you cannot gain power from increasing boost, the compressors are off of their maps and you need a larger/more efficient compressor side(s).

I would suggest getting a full datalog of your hotside. I don't know if you're logging boost in BE or not, but if you are, I would adapt a line to your hotside to get a datalog of it.

kenewagner
09-05-2014, 06:45 PM
Well as I continue to track down the gremlins in the car. I gave a lot of thought to what could be a problem. After a lot of thought and advice from other sources I felt the waste gates were the logical problem. If they were opening and bleeding off pressure that would make for lazy spooling. I decided to take the boost controller off line and run the waste gates on springs only, (21lbers) with a boost reference source. took it for a spin right after the change. Spin being the exact words as the tires cant keep traction. Spooling is almost instant and it feels like someone strapped a rocket to the rear end. Due to rain coming in I had almost no time to play with it. I need to focus on when boost is all in. I was so happy the other day all I could think of was wow. Now I have to focus and get it ready for the shootout. Might have something competive to race after all

Ken

BirdofPrey97
09-05-2014, 07:15 PM
Great news Ken!!! Thanks for staying after it and keeping us informed and allowing us to sharing with us and allowing us to share in the highs and lows.

sanddune24
09-05-2014, 08:04 PM
Good to hear you are making progress Ken.

JT's03
09-05-2014, 09:32 PM
Good deal! You could always compare load curves to see the improvement in data terms. The load curve will most of the time reflect tq curve on a dyno also where peak boost comes in. This makes it hard to tell where full spool is when running a non locked converter like we are.

nickleman60
09-06-2014, 08:06 AM
took it for a spin right after the change. Spin being the exact words as the tires cant keep traction. Spooling is almost instant and it feels like someone strapped a rocket to the rear end.

Ken

Sounds like your set-up is coming together Ken, good luck on a new personal best at the track................:)

PDQ SC
09-06-2014, 09:59 AM
Well as I continue to track down the gremlins in the car. I gave a lot of thought to what could be a problem. After a lot of thought and advice from other sources I felt the waste gates were the logical problem. If they were opening and bleeding off pressure that would make for lazy spooling. I decided to take the boost controller off line and run the waste gates on springs only, (21lbers) with a boost reference source. took it for a spin right after the change. Spin being the exact words as the tires cant keep traction. Spooling is almost instant and it feels like someone strapped a rocket to the rear end. Due to rain coming in I had almost no time to play with it. I need to focus on when boost is all in. I was so happy the other day all I could think of was wow. Now I have to focus and get it ready for the shootout. Might have something competive to race after all

Ken

Make sure you bring some spare half shafts.

SCrazy
09-06-2014, 11:57 AM
That's got to put a smile on your face!!!!

kenewagner
09-06-2014, 04:05 PM
That's got to put a smile on your face!!!!

This morning I ran it up the street a few times. Tried to power brake it. At 2500 rpm tires broke loose so I let off the brake soon after that. Boost comes on real fast and hit 18lbs of boost around 4500. At that point tires were spinning so hard the rear was kicking out and I let out of it. I have not gone past that at the moment as my AFR gauge decided to quit. I am trying to get some time on the dyno to recheck the AFR and see how the numbers have changed. I am running out of time quick. The car is filth dirty and need to be buffed out and waxed. This year is going just to fast. The power is far more violent than the whipple once boost is hit. Will be interesting what it feel like at 6300 rpm. Yes I am smiling now

Ken

superdadsc
09-08-2014, 11:04 AM
That's awesome Ken. You deserve it with all of your hard work!!! Sounds like a beast!!:D:D

David Neibert
09-08-2014, 05:13 PM
Ken,

Looking forward to seeing you and the car at the Shootout next month. I'm sure it will look and run great.

David

kenewagner
09-08-2014, 05:25 PM
Ken,

Looking forward to seeing you and the car at the Shootout next month. I'm sure it will look and run great.

David

Will be limited to 18lbs of boost which it is making on the street. The shootout will give me an oppertunity to see how poor it launches or good. I can than decided on how to work on that. Looks like my options are the manual valve body you told me about. A two step setup to launch and of course a working boost controller to dial up the boost. But for now I want to just have some fun having a running car to race and hang out with the crowd. Got to get off my duff and register tonight

Ken

neverfastenough
09-08-2014, 05:38 PM
I'll be doing my shake down passes at the shootout too Ken so there will be two guys at least more worried about dialing in than winning races lol

kenewagner
09-08-2014, 06:25 PM
I'll be doing my shake down passes at the shootout too Ken so there will be two guys at least more worried about dialing in than winning races lol

We will have some fun for sure. Need to see if I can get some training on the Quarter horse. Looking forward to seeing all:D

Ken

CMac89
09-09-2014, 08:31 AM
Will be limited to 18lbs of boost which it is making on the street. The shootout will give me an oppertunity to see how poor it launches or good. I can than decided on how to work on that. Looks like my options are the manual valve body you told me about. A two step setup to launch and of course a working boost controller to dial up the boost. But for now I want to just have some fun having a running car to race and hang out with the crowd. Got to get off my duff and register tonight

Ken

OOoOOoO, Ken, you can get some stronger springs in those bad boys! :D One thing you can do is get a 2-step and use a brake switch to activate it.

On a side note, I'm sure the car is nice and quick, but your dyno numbers won't necessarily change if your boost doesn't. So my last post was leaning towards power making, but you might as well use the track as the real dyno. It's always the best bet. I'm sure you'll be plenty happy :)