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View Full Version : Firing order off-misfire-and much, much more!



Birddog85
10-06-2014, 08:36 PM
Well, here we go..
I picked up an 89 SC last weekend and it's not quite right (much like myself).
The drive home was really fun, all types of smoke followed me, it was so bad at one point that a School Bus had to stop till it cleared..:o
Turns out the dipstick tube had come dislodged and oil was spewing all over the place.

The other issues are a heavy misfire at idle and under load, no cel, my firing order seems to have changed and she is running pig rich.

Firing order first. My searches say it should be as follows.
1-2-3
4-6-5
The only way I can get it to run is.
1-2-3
5-6-4
And it misses like crazy under load, idles like a Pro Stock and the exhaust is so rich you can't stand behind the car. Oddly in neutral it'll rev like mad but it will shroud you in a fog of fuel.

I've pulled the Cam sensor plug with no change. Ive pulled the spout with a slight idle change.
I had the DIS tested at 3 different Parts stores, two stores passed it and one failed it which is odd.

A compression test, plugs and wires will be a project for this coming weekend.
What's bugging me is the firing order.

(The car does have a few mods that I didn't know about until I dug in. I've found aftermarket exhaust with high flow cats and DynoMax turbo mufflers, overdrive pulleys, a BBK/Eddy 70mm throttle body and the MAF body looks to be aftermarket as well. I haven't checked the ECM yet.)

Yes I did buy this a little hastily. Here in the Midwest it's a bit rare to find these with their sheet metal intact at a reasonable price.

I'll stop rambling now.

EDIT: There is quite a bit of "blow by" on the mill. At idle you can see a quick chug from the dipstick tube. Im starting to think Detonation has taken its toll.

KMT
10-06-2014, 08:46 PM
Some of the third party repair manuals have it wrong.

This is the correct order:
http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/PlugandWireLayout.jpg

Have you run the codes yet?

Know how to check fuel pressure?

Checked for vacuum leaks?

elanoresc
10-06-2014, 08:52 PM
123564 is correct then passenger side 123 driver 456 front to back misfire and stumble under load mostly bad wires be exposed or loose on plug. As far as rich either coil or o2 could be bad especially if they have over 100k or had antifreeze pass by them.

elanoresc
10-06-2014, 08:56 PM
Where are you as far as Midwest

Birddog85
10-06-2014, 10:01 PM
Some of the third party repair manuals have it wrong.

This is the correct order:
http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/PlugandWireLayout.jpg

Have you run the codes yet?

Know how to check fuel pressure?

Checked for vacuum leaks?


Crap, the firing is right. I haven't checked for vac leaks yet. She can pull 20" at about 1000 rpm, at shaky idle it's 10".

I'm starting to think Detonation has popped a piston.

Birddog85
10-06-2014, 10:18 PM
Where are you as far as Midwest

Davenport Iowa.

Birddog85
10-06-2014, 10:22 PM
Some of the third party repair manuals have it wrong.

This is the correct order:
http://members.tccoa.com/dneibert/PlugandWireLayout.jpg

Have you run the codes yet?

Know how to check fuel pressure?

Checked for vacuum leaks?


I haven't gone for Vacuum leaks yet. I do have blow by issues. I'm thinking a compression/leak down test should be in order.

KMT
10-06-2014, 10:28 PM
If blowby blew out the dipstick, yes, I'd be interested in what a compression test showed.

I guess you already checked for water in the oil - good luck and keep us posted.

Birddog85
10-06-2014, 10:46 PM
If blowby blew out the dipstick, yes, I'd be interested in what a compression test showed.

I guess you already checked for water in the oil - good luck and keep us posted.

Yes, no oil in the water and vise-verse. The guy I got her from was pretty clueless. I'm thinking he filled up with 87 and ratatatated her to death.

aroot1
10-07-2014, 09:45 AM
Do plugs and wires. Even if they seem OK, it is amazing on these cars the strange and unpleasant things a bad wire or plug will cause. Next is the vacume leaks, same as above, and as has been stressed on the site MANY times, a smoke test is really the only way to go here, the spray it with "stuff" and listen for the change in RPM won't work on these rigs. The comp reacts to "fix" it too fast to hear unless it is a MASSIVE leak

Adam

zbird1
10-07-2014, 11:18 AM
Live close to davenport. I have some manuals and some extra parts let me know maybe l could help.

gr8ghost
10-08-2014, 01:39 AM
I think you are right to cover the basics with compression and leak down tests. While you are there check the wires and plugs thoroughly. Bad plugs and wire will really make these things run badly. I have grown to also like my infrared thermometer. A cool exhaust port will ID a weak cylinder right now especially if it is ignition related.

Birddog85
10-08-2014, 08:31 PM
Live close to davenport. I have some manuals and some extra parts let me know maybe l could help.

Right on! Someone local.
This car has been for sale in the area at least 3 times before. Maybe you've seen it. I think the PO got her from someone near Byron.

Birddog85
10-08-2014, 08:41 PM
I think you are right to cover the basics with compression and leak down tests. While you are there check the wires and plugs thoroughly. Bad plugs and wire will really make these things run badly. I have grown to also like my infrared thermometer. A cool exhaust port will ID a weak cylinder right now especially if it is ignition related.

I'm going one step at a time. The blow by concerns me a bit but she should run better than this. The plug wires are broken down cheapies but someone spent money on Motocraft Platinum?

If it were any other car It'd have been stripped and scrapped (The PO was close to doing that too).
She's just so damn good looking.

zbird1
10-08-2014, 09:56 PM
Shoot me a PM a maybe we can get together this weekend sometime and see what we can find out.

BirdofPrey97
10-11-2014, 11:27 AM
I have some software we can put on an 89 and see what's going on. I am over near Des Moines, but a weekend trip isnt likely as it's harvest season. Any chance you can trailer it over here? More then happy to help, just swamped with work right now.

Personally until it's figured out I would go back to a stock MAF, TB and everything else just to make sure a tune isn't needed. I have several Mafs and TBs that are stock for the 89 you are more then welcome to use them just ask for them back when you are done. If you dont have it fixed by March I will be able to help.

Birddog85
10-13-2014, 11:00 PM
Shoot me a PM a maybe we can get together this weekend sometime and see what we can find out.

I appreciate that offer! This last weekend was a bit of a waste. PM to be sent for future reference.

Birddog85
10-13-2014, 11:15 PM
I have some software we can put on an 89 and see what's going on. I am over near Des Moines, but a weekend trip isnt likely as it's harvest season. Any chance you can trailer it over here? More then happy to help, just swamped with work right now.

Personally until it's figured out I would go back to a stock MAF, TB and everything else just to make sure a tune isn't needed. I have several Mafs and TBs that are stock for the 89 you are more then welcome to use them just ask for them back when you are done. If you dont have it fixed by March I will be able to help.

That's above and beyond! Thanks!
Like I posted in the other thread, I think I'm looking at an injector issue.
I've been wrong before though.

BirdofPrey97
10-14-2014, 02:08 PM
That's above and beyond! Thanks!
Like I posted in the other thread, I think I'm looking at an injector issue.
I've been wrong before though.


The BE would tell you.

Birddog85
10-15-2014, 09:30 PM
I'm laying off the injectors. Once the rail was up I found no leakage with the system pressurized.

I'm also finding that everything I touch has been touched before.
Every bolt ive pulled (including the fuel rail bolts) has had anti seize on them. The EGR delete and Teflon charge pipe seals should have been a tip off.
Tomorrow mostly everything goes back together with new plugs and wires.
Start from the beginning.

One problem, the P.O. cranked hard on the collet for the upper charge pipe and split it..

aroot1
10-16-2014, 09:23 AM
The upper pipe is no problem, lots of parts cars and FMIC's here. Getting a used one should b cheep and easy. Now how someone could have split that nut :confused::eek::confused:! God bless the anti sieze too, all the aluminum to steel in these rigs, at least the PO was smart enough to save you THAT grief!

Adam

BirdofPrey97
10-16-2014, 09:34 AM
Bird I have an extra pipe if you can make it over to DSM area.

Birddog85
10-18-2014, 09:26 PM
Whelp.. She is back together. And marginally driveable. It still has a dead cylinder. She runs the same no matter what, SPOUT in or out, Cam sensor in or out it still idles with a thud...thud...thud. No CEL either.
I did get a chance to wind her up a bit after a good washing.
It's every bit of the tail swinging burnout machine I remember from my younger days.
But I think this mill needs a rebuild.

Birddog85
10-24-2014, 05:58 PM
89 Thunderbird SC: http://youtu.be/V7Jy66EGU8o

I uploaded a video to youtube. It isn't the best but it'll be a good before and after once she is put right.

Birddog85
10-26-2014, 01:09 PM
62238
I crawled under her today to look at the CPS and found this plastic cover wedged between the block, a pulley and the wires for the sensor.

62239

It's hard to see but a pic is worth 1000 words..
The corrugated plastic is split, I can see a large grey wire, a red wire and some bare silver wire up in the depths.

KMT
10-26-2014, 01:30 PM
Looks like the crank sensor was injured? Is the pulley loose/bent?

Birddog85
10-26-2014, 05:02 PM
Looks like the crank sensor was injured? Is the pulley loose/bent?

No, it looks fine. I'm going to post a quick video with the 710 cap off. The trouble is mechanical.

Birddog85
10-26-2014, 05:07 PM
http://youtu.be/a0CLcIGoNlM

Looks like I have a fun winter project!:D

dthompson
10-26-2014, 06:19 PM
lol! yeah id say you found the problem :)

Birddog85
10-28-2014, 06:56 PM
lol! yeah id say you found the problem :)

Yeah, at least I can spare my knuckles the pain of doing a compression test!

Though yanking the engine is about on par with changing the plugs on these..

Time to start searching build threads..

92 sc
10-29-2014, 05:42 AM
I'm going one step at a time. The blow by concerns me a bit but she should run better than this. The plug wires are broken down cheapies but someone spent money on Motocraft Platinum?

If it were any other car It'd have been stripped and scrapped (The PO was close to doing that too).
She's just so damn good looking.
I had the same problem with mine and it turned out to be a vacuum leak on the intake manifold near cylinder 6.