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jdsgallops
10-21-2015, 03:31 PM
Engine number 2 is now in the car thanks to Matt(Dr. Fishbone).

I have two issues though.

1) A high Idle. It smelled rich also so I assumed vacuum leak. Searched the car and all hoses appear to be connected properly. Clutch in it is idling 750-800, clutch out it goes to 1100-1200. Which brings up problem number 2.

2) Clutch out there is a rattling noise. Clutch in or even slight pressure on the pedal and it goes away. Engine and trans were dropped in as a unit so I know the alignment is correct. Not sure why this issue is there. It was same parts off the old engine where it did not do this. I did have to replace the clutch line therefore needed to bleed the system. It is not bled perfectly but is acceptable to drive the car. Amazingly leaving the car in the garage with the nose up seemed to help the air bubbles come out. Prior to today the clutch would engaged as soon as you started to let the pedal out. Today clutch is grabbing 1/4-1/3 way up the pedal.

Data log of a drive around the block shows a perfect lambse of 14.64 and kamrf of 1. So I think I can rule out vacuum leak on the idle. Other suggestions?

1FSTBRD
10-21-2015, 07:03 PM
I might double check for vacuum leaks anyways. I had checked mine by spraying water on it, but it didn't reveal anything. Did a pressure test, and sure enough, there was a small bubble coming out of the u-shaped vacuum hose connection on the intake plenum.

jdsgallops
10-21-2015, 08:21 PM
Vacuum gauge should tell me. Now that I don't tune carbs anymore I always forget the vacuum gauge is even in the tool box. My experience though would be if there is it would command a richer fuel mixture though.

Still puzzled on the noise from the transmission. It is not the normal throw out bearing noise. It sounds as if something is hitting the fingers of the pressure plate. It is a centerpiece dual friction pp. could it be a loose weight?

jdsgallops
10-28-2015, 01:06 PM
The car is still idling high but has developed another quirk. It has had this quirk since I installed the last engine. It will now randomly run rough. Will start fine and go down the road fine then all of a sudden a huge miss and loss of power. It will barely move itself. Turning the car off and restarting yields a hard start that if cranked for a few seconds will draw the start down to almost kicking back on itself and dim all the lights. Loss of tach signal is normal in this situation. The tach may or may not come back depending on how long the car runs. Idle seems to go to the 1500-200rpm range.

Things I have tried.

I removed the chip. Removing the chip has not cured the problem but seems to have lessened it.
Vacuum gauge shows a steady 18.5-19psi of vacuum at idle.

Thoughts on the possible issue.

Ignition switch. This has been suggested before. I looked at replacing but the current installed switch does not show the normal signs of failure that are familiar. Therefore I put this on the back burner.

Bad ground. To the best of my knowledge all the grounds that were on the original engine were reused. The main ones are from each motor mount to the frame rail on passenger side and battery on driver side.

Corrupt tune. I have had similar issues when this has happened in the past. My GURE file was procured from Sailorbob.

Thoughts on these possible issues or other suggestion on what may be causing the issue are appreciated.

KMT
10-28-2015, 01:40 PM
Engine and trans were dropped in as a unit so I know the alignment is correct.


If the flywheel was turned, did you have to shim anything?

decipha
10-28-2015, 03:27 PM
high idle is most likely you needing to back the throttle body set screw down

noise is most probably a bad pressure plate/clutch

jdsgallops
10-28-2015, 03:41 PM
Flywheel was not turned. Clutch noise has quieted down. Lest of my concerns right now.

Major concern is the rough running for no apparent reason. If I can't reliably depend on the car to get me and my 4 year old 2 miles down the road to the grocery store it is of no use to me. I pulled up to the stop sign to get on the 4 lane hwy into town and the rough wandering idle showed up at which point in time I don't know if I have the power to get into traffic. I am sure that and the high idle are related.

Throttle body set screw and air adjustment screw(PP TB) were first things I checked after starting the car. Both were already set correctly.

S_Mazza
10-28-2015, 04:19 PM
Sudden misfire and loss of tach? I would try the ignition module (DIS).

Ignition switch was a good thought, but it seems to be ok from what you said.

Bad connection at chip is a possibility, but you have probably ruled that out.

One other thought, maybe best to check before buying any parts, is could the EEC ground to the negative battery cable & radiator support be flaky?

jdsgallops
10-28-2015, 06:29 PM
Battery to core ground is good. It was not there when I put the previous engine in. I believe you suggested I add it. New connection that is good.

Turn signals don't work either. Starting to think it is ignition switch more and more. I have one here so next chance I will replace it.

I did drive it more today without the chip. Ran down the road good and none of the issues. Even made it to the grocery store and back! There was a hint of a want to go to the rough wandering idle a time or two but it smoothed out right away. I may need to check the tune and see if there is anything out of the ordinary. I do use a Moates chip on both the Mustang and Tbird. Very possible something got mixed up somewhere.

It does not suddenly lose tach signal, there will be no tach on restart after it goes to the rough running wandering idle with power loss and stuttering drivability. It will suddenly go to the rough running. Running great in the driveway then get out on the road and will be lucky to nurse the car back to the house.

1FSTBRD
10-28-2015, 07:31 PM
It could be a bad ground, as you mention. My Mustang had a bad ground, and I had lost all electrical power while driving, and it stalled while moving! Thankfully, I was a block from home. Check your ground connections on the hood fascia part (ie: where the rubber hood stop parts are), because I can say with all experience that they can singlehandedly shut a car down.

Off the top of my head, I don't know how many there are, but I know that there's at least one by the battery (as that's where I hooked up the ground to my IC fan). Check to make sure that they're not corroded or green.....if they are, clean them off to ensure that there's a metal to metal connection. It may not be totally corroded, but corroded enough to make it an intermittent annoyance that you can't otherwise pinpoint. Turn signals crapping out and fuel pump losing power (bad idle, rough running/ feels like a compression problem) would point to it.

S_Mazza
10-28-2015, 08:20 PM
It could be a bad ground, as you mention. My Mustang had a bad ground, and I had lost all electrical power while driving, and it stalled while moving! Thankfully, I was a block from home. Check your ground connections on the hood fascia part (ie: where the rubber hood stop parts are), because I can say with all experience that they can singlehandedly shut a car down.

Off the top of my head, I don't know how many there are, but I know that there's at least one by the battery (as that's where I hooked up the ground to my IC fan). Check to make sure that they're not corroded or green.....if they are, clean them off to ensure that there's a metal to metal connection. It may not be totally corroded, but corroded enough to make it an intermittent annoyance that you can't otherwise pinpoint. Turn signals crapping out and fuel pump losing power (bad idle, rough running/ feels like a compression problem) would point to it.

I definitely agree that the fuel and ignition cut could be related to the EEC ground ... but the turn signals dropping makes me think that the ignition switch is looking more likely. Or something in the fuse box, possibly.

jdsgallops
10-30-2015, 12:43 PM
Took the car on about an hour drive today. Chip is still off it and it ran virtually perfectly with no hiccups. So it appears my problem lies in the tune somewhere. This kind of makes sense as I did not have any of these issues with the original engine and setup. Not till I installed the previous rebuild and installed the chip did any of these symptoms arise.

Other than a hiccup in the tune what would make just installing the chip cause these issues? I have started and driven it multiple times now without the chip and have had no hiccups. When the chip was installed I was lucky to make it down my side street on multiple occasions under the same circumstances. Thoughts?

figulaz
10-30-2015, 02:09 PM
I just put in my qhorse drove around the block..so not much experience there but everything your read about cleaning the J3 port scared me enough to spend about 20-30 mins really getting every scrap of shellac/wax off with hard plastic and qtips with rubbing alcohol on both sides.

jdsgallops
10-30-2015, 11:29 PM
Wold love for it to be somethinge that simple. Unfortunately I have had some sort of tuner, Tweecer or Moates, on a J port for 10+ years now. I am familiar with the need to properly clean the connections and have a bottle of rubbing alcohol here just for that. Between that and how hard it was to pull the chip off I feel I can pretty much rule out the connection. I had a similar situation in my Mustang were the car would just cutout and then pick back up that was finally traced back to a corrupt tune. I have not had a chance to look at the time I had installed yet but when I do I will hopefully find the problem.

aroot1
10-31-2015, 12:55 PM
I've got a '90 XR7 that gave me intermittent driveability issues (sometimes days between, some times a week or more, others EVERY time I started the car). It was bucking while driving under any conditions, as if losing all power, then coming back on again at a rate of about once a second. Would often clean up and drive fine if I shut it off and restarted, BUT on restart I would have no tach. It would also sometimes give a hard start as you describe and "kick back" as I let off the key. I swapped out cam sensors and it all cleaned up. I'm not sure what your drivability behavior is, but some of the other symptoms are similar

Adam

S_Mazza
11-03-2015, 08:36 PM
Wold love for it to be somethinge that simple. Unfortunately I have had some sort of tuner, Tweecer or Moates, on a J port for 10+ years now. I am familiar with the need to properly clean the connections and have a bottle of rubbing alcohol here just for that. Between that and how hard it was to pull the chip off I feel I can pretty much rule out the connection. I had a similar situation in my Mustang were the car would just cutout and then pick back up that was finally traced back to a corrupt tune. I have not had a chance to look at the time I had installed yet but when I do I will hopefully find the problem.

Are you using a QH or a simple burned chip? Just checking here. I believe that certain revisions of the Quarterhorse had problems with the on-board battery.

jdsgallops
11-04-2015, 07:55 AM
Qh. Ran errands in it again yesterday and ventured farther out of town. Probably put about 50 miles on it. Ran nearly flawlessly again except for one incident of bucking on my way home. Just going down the hwy at 55-60 when it decided to do it but cleared up rather quickly. Blinkers also decided to start working midway through the trip. Being the bucking and poor driveability would show it's head after startup I am still pointing my finger at the tune, especially after the last two trips that had start and stop driving in them. The chip itself is only 6 months old.

figulaz
11-04-2015, 10:31 AM
can you reload the same tune? I'm thinking when I have a desktop software point of view where reinstalling sometimes helps. any connector/ sparkplug wires/harness/ground issues? I know it's the basics but I often go looking for zebras when I see hoof prints. Any datalogs when the failure happens? (not that I'm able to interpret datalogs:D)

jdsgallops
11-04-2015, 04:21 PM
With the car running fine without the chip I have left it off. Therefore no catalog. I have not taken the time to look at the tune yet.

That said I took the car to run errands again today. Once again about 50 miles round trip. About 3-4 miles from the house it once again decided to do the bucking thing running down the hwy at 2000-2100rpm or about 60mph. It did not clear up right away and was slowing down even as I would give it more throttle and boost would come on. I quickly pulled over, noticed even the idle was bouncing around and very low, 500ish rpm and shut the car off. I immediately restarted the car and had no more trouble for the rest of my trip. Is this pointing to the ignition switch? Once again upon start up I had no tach signal and then a few miles down the road it was suddenly back.

Having driven the car 100 or so miles the last 2 days I must say I am so glad I "saved" this car from being parted out. It is so comfortable and fun to drive. It makes the long journey to this point much more satisfying. It is far from perfect but is showing signs of being reliable and worth the time to fix the minor trim and running issues still present. Maybe even paint one day!

decipha
11-04-2015, 04:49 PM
Throttle body set screw and air adjustment screw(PP TB) were first things I checked after starting the car. Both were already set correctly.

does PP mean professional products?

if so thats most likely your problem

how did you set it correctly if you couldn't reach base idle ??

sam jones
11-04-2015, 05:02 PM
Good afternoon

Take a look a the DIS harness connectors. Check for exposed/damaged wiring. Swap it out if you have a spare. I have posted my experiences with a defective harness which had similar malfunctions (erratic/lost tac, bouncing/bucking and or engine shut down).


Good luck.

jdsgallops
11-04-2015, 06:21 PM
does PP mean professional products?

if so thats most likely your problem

how did you set it correctly if you couldn't reach base idle ??

Since the removal of the chip there has been no idle issues. It does hang and take some time to come down to proper idle but it does come down and idles perfectly in the 600-750 range on the stock tach. Scratch that whole PP TB being the problem.

Sam you make a great point. That harness would have been removed when the engine came out so it could be loose somewhere. After all I couldn't remember I purposely left the jack shaft pulley bolts loose until I had the belt on to make it easier to hold and tighten until after I had started the car and wondered why there was a wobble!

aroot1
11-06-2015, 01:21 PM
That said I took the car to run errands again today. Once again about 50 miles round trip. About 3-4 miles from the house it once again decided to do the bucking thing running down the hwy at 2000-2100rpm or about 60mph. It did not clear up right away and was slowing down even as I would give it more throttle and boost would come on. I quickly pulled over, noticed even the idle was bouncing around and very low, 500ish rpm and shut the car off. I immediately restarted the car and had no more trouble for the rest of my trip. Is this pointing to the ignition switch? Once again upon start up I had no tach signal and then a few miles down the road it was suddenly back.


This is the exact symptoms I described earlier/above, mine appeared to be a bad signal from the cam sensor. When it happened it bucked as you describe, on restart usually had no tach, may take several tries to start as the PCM "guesses" when to fire injectors. The car then ran fine, sometimes the tach sig would come back, sometimes not. My conclusion was NO cam sensor signal was better than a BAD signal. New cam sensor, and it has not happened since. Easy to change.

Adam

jdsgallops
11-06-2015, 07:01 PM
Good to hear Adam. This is an engine that has been sitting for several years. I just dropped it in and hoped for the best. Being the old engine has a new cam sensor on it this is an easy thing to try. Will be kicking myself for not doing it when I swapped the balancer though...... Still doesn't explain why it happens less frequently with the chip removed though.

jdsgallops
11-11-2015, 04:01 PM
Double post

jdsgallops
11-11-2015, 04:02 PM
Feeling comfortable with the way the car was running I decided to put the chip back on the car today. I wrote a new base tune from a stock bin. I changed only Egr setting, injector size, and MAF transfer. On the test drive it was bucking again more frequantly than when the chip was off. I however did not have to restart the car for it to clear up. I was able to get a short datalog before the lap top battery died. Looking at it it appears to be a timing issue. At closed throttle and say 50mph it is only commanding 20-25* of timing. Under these low load conditions it should command more timing for emissions and fuel mileage concerns. Looking further at the datalog it appears from when I remember the bucking happening and and correlate It to the datalog that it is also pulling timing. Could this be a bad knock sensor?

I double checked the DIS harness and it is connected tight and without any frayed wires. It did start hard yesterday without the chip installed, kind of like hydro locking. The last engine had this same issue so as much as I would like to point my finger at the crank sensor I find it unlikely as it is two different sensors causing the same problem. This does not me it is not or I won't change it, as I have several here. It does seem like it could be at least part of the problem. Again what about the knock sensor?

The high idle is also back with the chip also, 1300rpm or so with no signs of coming down.

S_Mazza
11-11-2015, 06:31 PM
Feeling comfortable with the way the car was running I decided to put the chip back on the car today. I wrote a new base tune from a stock bin. I changed only Egr setting, injector size, and MAF transfer. On the test drive it was bucking again more frequantly than when the chip was off. I however did not have to restart the car for it to clear up. I was able to get a short datalog before the lap top battery died. Looking at it it appears to be a timing issue. At closed throttle and say 50mph it is only commanding 20-25* of timing. Under these low load conditions it should command more timing for emissions and fuel mileage concerns. Looking further at the datalog it appears from when I remember the bucking happening and and correlate It to the datalog that it is also pulling timing. Could this be a bad knock sensor?

I double checked the DIS harness and it is connected tight and without any frayed wires. It did start hard yesterday without the chip installed, kind of like hydro locking. The last engine had this same issue so as much as I would like to point my finger at the crank sensor I find it unlikely as it is two different sensors causing the same problem. This does not me it is not or I won't change it, as I have several here. It does seem like it could be at least part of the problem. Again what about the knock sensor?

The high idle is also back with the chip also, 1300rpm or so with no signs of coming down.

Low timing advance at cruise should not cause bucking.

The car idles high only with the chip installed? What is the timing like at idle?

Have you looked at the cam sensor? The car can run without it, but may take multiple tries to start. You can try unplugging it, start it up, and run without it for a while to rule it out.

Any chance that the harmonic damper outer ring has separated from the rubber holding it to the inner hub?

jdsgallops
11-12-2015, 11:08 AM
Balancer looks good. I replaced the one that was on the motor with the one I pulled out. Looked much better very little cracking of the rubber.

I took it on another good drive last night, about 50 miles round trip. Was able to data log there and back. MAF is nearly dead on. Car ran the same with the chip as without on this trip. The idle is still high with the chip approx 1000rpm.

Watching the dashboard as much as I could while driving the engine does not seem to be the bucking issue as the rpm did not changing during any bucking situation I was able to see live. Between this and having the same symptoms with both engines I am thinking ignition switch again though would not rule out the cam or crank sensor. I think ignition switch is the place to start though as the car is 25 years old, appears to have the original switch still in it, and has 200 or so k on it.

jdsgallops
11-14-2015, 01:43 PM
I've got a '90 XR7 that gave me intermittent driveability issues (sometimes days between, some times a week or more, others EVERY time I started the car). It was bucking while driving under any conditions, as if losing all power, then coming back on again at a rate of about once a second. Would often clean up and drive fine if I shut it off and restarted, BUT on restart I would have no tach. It would also sometimes give a hard start as you describe and "kick back" as I let off the key. I swapped out cam sensors and it all cleaned up. I'm not sure what your drivability behavior is, but some of the other symptoms are similar

Adam

We appear to have a winner here. It starting bucking as soon as I got on the interstate Thursday night and wouldn't clear up. So I pulled over to restart the car. Did not want to restart. After many attempts it finally did and no more issues on the way home. So I installed the cam sensor from the old engine. Fired right up and seems to be running smoother. Has not bucked in 2 days now, though I have not exactly done my normal driving routine. The old sensor did seem to have some copper dust in it so I am hoping this has resolved the issue. Thanks for the help!

aroot1
11-15-2015, 01:20 PM
Cool.

Interesting that you had that "dust" on it. I also saw a grainy dust like stuff stuck on mine. I figured it might be rust, and the switch being magnetic it could have been the whole problem. Never bothered to try to clean it up and put it back in, if it ain't broke , don't fix it, or, if it's fixed leave it the hell alone!

Glad that seems to have been what you needed, and a bunch easier than some of the other paths it might have gone!

Adam

jdsgallops
11-16-2015, 02:26 PM
No bucking since cam sensor install. Seems to have done the trick. My dust was thrown out on each side of the pickup. I didn't figure it was worth trying to clean. I figured if there was dust it was a clearance issue and cleaning wouldn't make a difference. Though I am curious how the dust would form?

Did have one "hydraulic lock" type start with it since the sensor install. Going to chalk that up to the ignition switch as the blinkers are still an on off thing, along with many other electrical accessories. Some times it is baby steps. One minor issue down countless more to go. The car is such a joy to drive though. I enjoy it more than the 11 and it is my daughters preference also!

S_Mazza
11-16-2015, 05:42 PM
Copper colored dust could be finely ground "Oilite" bushing material from down inside the cam synchro assembly (below the cam sensor head). Or it could be rust, possibly.

jdsgallops
12-02-2015, 04:16 PM
Well it's back but in a different way.

I took the car to work one day, about a 30 mile drive, and about 1/2 way there going down the interstate the car started to buck. It would not clear up. I pulled over inspected the car and could find nothing wrong. The car restarted hard and ran poorly. A mile or two down the road it cleared up and ran normally the rest of the way to work. Turning the car off and restarting after work had it running poorly still. I leave for the night and start the car and it is running normally. Again a little before 1/2 way home it lost power, bucked, and ran poorly. This time it was noticeable, easier in the dark, that the car would run normal with check engine light off, poorly with it on. It would go off and on for a few miles before it finally stayed on. Car was well down on power, at 0 or positive boost the rest of the ride home. By the time I pulled in the driveway the car would barely idle and it was idling about 400 rpm and going down.

A quick search here pointed the finger at either the ignition switch or the DIS. Being I had an ignition switch here I elected to replace it before going any further. I just finished replacing the switch. Even after the battery being disconnected for over a week once the car was started it was still running very rough and the CE light was still on. The car does not want to rev and idles very low and wandering. The car is starting very hard needing several attempts to start.

Is there a way to check the DIS? There is no up shift light on crank.

Reminder this engine was pulled out of a car that had sat for many years. I only switched over what I needed to to drop it in. If the DIS is not the issue could it be the knock sensor from sitting so long, thus pulling timing there the loss of power and rough running?

KMT
12-02-2015, 04:50 PM
Sounds like it's defaulting to basic lookup values (limp mode). Might be a failing/failed ECU.

Any codes?

jdsgallops
12-02-2015, 05:32 PM
I have not pulled codes yet. I have yet to figure out how to do it with EA. That being said I intended on taking the car for a drive to get a datalog to see what was going on but the car was running so poorly that I put it striaght in the garage before it quit running. It did not seem to log even for that short time or show anything on the dashboard.

jdsgallops
12-09-2015, 04:20 PM
Still at square one.

Did some digging on the forums today to help solve this problem. Although it sounds like a DIS issue I am tired of throwing money at the car and want to be sure what the problem is before I buy anything else.

Random post had someone with a melted plug wire with same symptoms. Checked plug wires all are good.

Finally replaced the ignition switch. No noticeable change with it. The old one was starting to separate so it was going to be needed sooner or later. I still have what seems to be a big draw when trying to start the car making it almost kick back or die when trying to start. Only happens if cranked for 30ish seconds or so.

Tried pulling codes today. As I was looking up how to jumper the wires I remembered I had a code reader here. Plugged it in and let it do it's thing. After 10 minutes it was still not flashing any codes nor was the CE light flashing. Was going through the self check as you could hear all the solienoids clicking. It seemed though that it checked everything multiple times and never went into flashing the codes. After the 10 minutes I pulled the reader off and the fan continued to run along with all dash lights remaining lit.

This car has me at wits end. I am to the point I am concerned it has electrical gremlins that can't be found and it may be time to part it out.

Tell me what I am doing wrong here what the problem could be before that happens!

KMT
12-09-2015, 04:27 PM
Tried pulling codes today. As I was looking up how to jumper the wires I remembered I had a code reader here. Plugged it in and let it do it's thing. After 10 minutes it was still not flashing any codes nor was the CE light flashing. Was going through the self check as you could hear all the solienoids clicking. It seemed though that it checked everything multiple times and never went into flashing the codes. After the 10 minutes I pulled the reader off and the fan continued to run along with all dash lights remaining lit.


Sorry if this has already been suggested, but that sounds like a bad ECU to me...

jdsgallops
12-09-2015, 05:24 PM
Yes you have mentioned that already. Should I still not be able to pull codes? The only other time I had a computer go bad the car would turn over but not start. We eventually found a bad ground in the computer. In this case the car will eventually start and run, though very poorly. I drove it this way for nearly 60 miles going to work and back. What about the symptoms I have reported makes it sound like a bad computer and not the DIS?

KMT
12-09-2015, 06:48 PM
What about the symptoms I have reported makes it sound like a bad computer and not the DIS?

My opinion is that an issue with the DIS wouldn't cause the issues you just described when trying to pull codes. How many times now have you successfully pulled codes on that car so far?

jdsgallops
12-09-2015, 06:55 PM
This is the first time I have tried to pull codes. There has never been a CE light until now.

KMT
12-09-2015, 07:04 PM
It could always be both ECU & DIS, I suppose :(

But this is always why spares are your friend. I've even gone 3 or 4 deep on some, including cam sensors, DIS and front upper harnesses. I only have one spare ECU and haven't had to put it in for any testing so far. My car had some intermittent issues why I got it, and I could tell someone had dug into the area where the ECU sits, but mine turned out to be starter switch, grounds and cam sensor. I never test with used ground cables...jumpers, maybe, but if an old cable comes out, a new one goes in.

Until you can eliminate the ECU as at least part of the problem, I think you're stuck.

james5275
12-09-2015, 09:19 PM
Sorry I won't be a whole lot of help here, but I also experienced ignition kickback with my 90 some years ago. Would never do it on a cold engine, only a hot restart such as a fuel stop. Maybe 1 out of every 3 hot starts. I learned to live with it, and found that if I released the starter (instead of trying to power the starter through the kickback) then hit the starter again it would fire up normal.

Long story short, I also had an intermittent tachometer, issue was the autozone dis module.

In recent years, I have seen the bucking numerous time caused by a bad dis. Seem like the autozone brand has about a max life span of 1 year. Preliminary warning has been the tach dropping off.

Hope this helps,
JJ