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BUDXR7
11-27-2016, 08:34 PM
Hey guys, the winter project this year is the suspension and brakes so I'm mulling over the pros / cons and cost benefit of the various options. On the brake side the three options I'm looking at are the Mark VIII upgrade Vs. the Mustang GT PBR upgrade Vs. the Cobra big brake upgrade. With hunting around the pick and pulls and just using online retailers the upgrade cost (including mustang hub swaps for the big brake package) is about $750 Vs. $750 Vs. $1800. These prices include used 93+ spindles because I have an 89. The reason for the mustang hub swap on the big brake package is because it would require new wheels anyhow so might as well open up the options there. Of course a wheel and tire package will add about $1300 to the big brake kit but that's a necessary evil. :D

The first questions is, for an occasional sunny day drive, car show and maybe some future auto-crossing - which is the best bang for the buck on brakes? Keep in mind, I'm doing SOMETHING regardless because the brakes are original and i have a slight warp in the rotors. I could replace everything OEM but from everything I read, the stock brakes really were inadequate and they are likely to warp again.

Next, suspension. I'm going to swap in some lowering springs and want to address the bushings, ball joints, etc.... Question here is, what would be the recommended parts list for this considering everything is original? The suspension does feel tight but I can see the grease boots on the upper ball joints are torn and I imagine much of the original bushings are dry rotted. Basically looking for the do it once and forget it for 30 years shopping list.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

nickleman60
11-28-2016, 09:32 AM
I went with the Mustang 2 piston PBR brakes and I think that they work fine.

MadMikeyL
11-28-2016, 10:04 AM
The Mustang GT upgrade is definitely the best bang for the buck, and will stop way better than the MarkVIII/sport brakes. The 13" brake setup is nice, but really not necessary on the street. I don't know where the $750 is coming from, but you can do it for way cheaper than that. Reman'd calipers are around $60 each, then you'll need some new rotors for a 93-97 MN12 at around $40 a piece, plus figure $100 for a good used set of 93+ spindles, and maybe another $80 for new hub and bearing assemblies in the front, plus pads, brake fluid, etc, you should be able to get it done for under $450.

good to doo
11-28-2016, 12:29 PM
I have a 95 car that use to warp front rotors like crazy after a few hard stops. So I put 2003 mustang twin piston aluminum calipers on. A straight bolt on. The car just stops easier now with less pedal pressure. And best of all it doesn,t warp rotors any more. Oh and you lose about 10 pounds from each corner. That's something to think about. Hope that helps.

Tim Groth
11-28-2016, 04:17 PM
I did this project 3 years ago and it was 500-600 range if memory serves me...with the most expensive part being that I purchase the Mustang rear hubs rather than drill the factory units ($175 each on summit) ..that in itself was more than half the cost of the project. So if you're trying to do it on the cheap have the rear hubs drilled.

As for the other items, I picked most of the stuff at the local salvage on a "all you can carry day" for $65. I also went with the PBR calipers and they work fine and are straight bolt on. Found 2 new front hubs on ebay for $30 shipped...wheels in tires set me back 1500. Guess it all depends there...certainly lower cost options.

-Tim

MadMikeyL
11-28-2016, 04:32 PM
I did this project 3 years ago and it was 500-600 range if memory serves me...with the most expensive part being that I purchase the Mustang rear hubs rather than drill the factory units ($175 each on summit) ..that in itself was more than half the cost of the project. So if you're trying to do it on the cheap have the rear hubs drilled.

As for the other items, I picked most of the stuff at the local salvage on a "all you can carry day" for $65. I also went with the PBR calipers and they work fine and are straight bolt on. Found 2 new front hubs on ebay for $30 shipped...wheels in tires set me back 1500. Guess it all depends there...certainly lower cost options.

-Tim

If he does the GT PBR setup, there is no requirement to change the bolt pattern, and so the rear hubs and actually the whole rear brake setup can stay like it is.

S4gunn
11-28-2016, 05:48 PM
If he does the GT PBR setup, there is no requirement to change the bolt pattern, and so the rear hubs and actually the whole rear brake setup can stay like it is.

On the GT PBR setup.
1) They can be had for as little as $30.79 from Rockauto as a reman product if you are OK returning your existing calipers instead of paying the core charges (I kept mine as a backup).
2) Just make sure to order them WITH the mounting brackets or you will need to place a second order and pay $30/pair for a set of GT PBR brackets (existing Tbird ones won't work for the larger calipers).
3) Also, order the 2003-04 Calipers even though 99-02 will also work because the 03-04 calipers will come with the same banjo bolt you need for the tbird (M10 X 1.5). This will save you another $15-20.
(save you another $15-20)

If you don't have a JY that offers good deals, look for someone who is parting out a tbird on here/TCCOA to get the best deal on the 93-97 front spindle assemblies.

IMO, the big step up in cost will come from the GT PBR setup to the Cobra PBR setup b/c of the increased cost of 17" wheels/tires (not just the brake bits).
-g

Tim Groth
11-28-2016, 05:59 PM
If he does the GT PBR setup, there is no requirement to change the bolt pattern, and so the rear hubs and actually the whole rear brake setup can stay like it is.

True - I thought he was tossing around hub swap to Mustang junk at the time of...that's where it became expensive for me...otherwise, it's very cheap as mentioned.

-Tim

BUDXR7
11-30-2016, 12:05 AM
This is all great feedback guys. I'm leaning towards the mustang gt pbr upgrade for best bang for the buck. With the money I save I could always option to get some nice wheels (really like the speed stars if they're ever back in stock).

Any feedback on the suspension parts to replace?

KMT
11-30-2016, 12:41 AM
Any feedback on the suspension parts to replace?

Seen this previous thread?

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?132710-Recommended-Suspension-Bushings-for-MN12-s-and-FN10-s

BUDXR7
11-30-2016, 07:02 PM
Seen this previous thread?

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?132710-Recommended-Suspension-Bushings-for-MN12-s-and-FN10-s

I hadn't seen that yet. That's an excellent write up. Thanks.

KMT
11-30-2016, 07:51 PM
Yes, it helped me out quite a bit.

My '90 Anny DD is lowered, and I when I went thru my entire front suspension, including shocks and wheel bearings, I used aftermarket stock parts for everything but the sway bar bushings, which are now red poly. The only parts I replaced on the rear were the shocks, sway bar end links/bushings, sway bar bushings and the diff mount, which except for the shock bushings, were all done in red poly. Did all this around 100k miles.

Ken

pock1
12-02-2016, 01:41 PM
I did the pbr mustang upgrade on my 93 sc . there were some mods u will have to make ( clear the spindle top part other wise the caliper won't fit) 2. brakeline to caliper needs shaving , most important. I found out that......mustang brake pads are thinner than the t-birds. so when I went o install mustang calipers. on t-bird rotors with pads it would not go on / very tight fit, so I cut the rotors a bit and they went on. I still have an issue with the amber light that is on. I also did the big brake ( 13s with twin piston and not very happy with the stopping.:eek: I took to Carlyle this past summer and at 80mph I had tire shake (gotta get high speed bal) plus the front rotors had a hum when u stepped on the brakes. I got these from my man chmike from tx who hooked me up, but the 13 rotors a very heavy and on the stock hubs gets me worried. either I have a weak master or I was thinking of a bigger brake eq (that's connected to driver wall). car stops fine, but I m thinking I would fell more bit , and stopping power.

KMT
12-02-2016, 01:51 PM
Sorry if I missed it - did you install braided hoses? Ceramic/carbon fiber pads?

99GSXR750
12-03-2016, 02:38 PM
I did the pbr mustang upgrade on my 93 sc . there were some mods u will have to make ( clear the spindle top part other wise the caliper won't fit) 2. brakeline to caliper needs shaving , most important. I found out that......mustang brake pads are thinner than the t-birds. so when I went o install mustang calipers. on t-bird rotors with pads it would not go on / very tight fit, so I cut the rotors a bit and they went on. I still have an issue with the amber light that is on. I also did the big brake ( 13s with twin piston and not very happy with the stopping.:eek: I took to Carlyle this past summer and at 80mph I had tire shake (gotta get high speed bal) plus the front rotors had a hum when u stepped on the brakes. I got these from my man chmike from tx who hooked me up, but the 13 rotors a very heavy and on the stock hubs gets me worried. either I have a weak master or I was thinking of a bigger brake eq (that's connected to driver wall). car stops fine, but I m thinking I would fell more bit , and stopping power.

Hey Tony,

Did you have any issues with the pads fitting into the driver's side caliper bracket with regards to the 13in upgrade?

Thanks,
Mike

pock1
12-03-2016, 07:44 PM
Hey Tony,

Did you have any issues with the pads fitting into the driver's side caliper bracket with regards to the 13in upgrade?

Thanks,
Mike

hi mike i have no issues with my 13 cobra rotors,pads. i bought them already redrilled to t-bird bolt pattern so everything went in smooth..............to kmt i also put in the steel braided lines(all 4 corners). the only problems i having or had .is the resrs rotors,pads were from a 90 sc........mine is a 94.so i had some rears from my stash and made adjustments. my 94 stops. it's just dosen't have the stop on a dime .type braking. i;ve bleed all 4 corners , there are no light on dash , car has 88k. im thinking 1. a wear brake booster , or a big brake equalizer ....since i've put bigger rotors.

BUDXR7
04-14-2017, 09:40 AM
So I've just about completed my shopping for this project. I went with the 03-04 gt pbr calipers (reconditioned from rock auto) and they came with brackets. I have the 93+ spindles and sway bar end links. Side note, I also have a set of solid brembo rotors, which by the way are far thinner than my stock 89 rotors with 16k miles on them. Also have the gt brake pads for them. The pbr calipers have the coarse thread from my observation so I assume I can reuse my stock 89 banjo bolts (I haven't disassembled anything yet). I am wondering if I should just go the rest of the way and get the braided ss hoses from victor (or if somebody has a good used set)? Will these hoses negate the need to grind the caliper/hose block for interferences? Any other parts I should be looking for? Thanks guys.

RalphP
04-15-2017, 01:31 PM
The stainless hoses will remove the requirement to grind clearance at the banjo bolt, yes.

Don't forget to touch up the caliper and/or the spindle to clear the ear; it hits at the end of the brake travel.

Hrm ... I'd stick with the thicker rotor for better heat dissipation if it were me; but it's your car, just keep the pads matched to the rotor. You will be needing a 1993+ non-Sport rotor for it all to fit, though.

RwP

BUDXR7
04-15-2017, 02:23 PM
I've seen plenty of discussion about the difference between rotors/hubs between years but is it true? The replacement rotors I got seem to fit on the 89 and 93 hubs exactly the same. I'm replacing the rotors either way because this whole project started with warped fronts. Leave it to me to fix a $30 problem with a $2500 solution.... somehow speedstars got a wrapped up in this too.o

RalphP
04-15-2017, 02:59 PM
In 1989 to 1992, the MN12 used an "integral" bracket (i.e., the calipers bolted straight to the spindle). These are to use a 276mm diameter rotor that's right UNDER 26mm thick and one caliper design.

The HUBS, well, there were two from 1989 to 1997; with and without ABS tone ring. Today all you can find are with the ABS tone ring, and that's OK, since without ABS it just ignores that ring.

For 1993, with the advent of the FN10, the calipers and spindles were changed to use a bracket between, since Fomoco picked two different size rotors to fit the same hub and wheels. The standard MN12 rotor is also 276mm diameter that's right OVER 26mm thick. The SPORT, and the Mark VIII, got a 294mm diameter rotor that's right under 26mm thick. Standard got a different caliper and bracket (set "A" for 15 inch wheels) as did the Sport and FN10 (set "B" for 16 inch wheels).

This is all on the front.

For the rears, with 1993, the entire family got a slightly different rear rotor and caliper; the rotor is a smidge thinner (and lighter), the caliper fits over the new center line. (Old rotor is right under 24mm thick; new rotor is 18mm thick)

For the rear, the OLD rotor and the NEW caliper, or NEW rotor and OLD caliper, can swap; but the pads are no longer properly centered (also, you'll have fun putting the OLD caliper, OLD rotor, and NEW pads on due to the NEW pads being a bit thicker ...)

Since the OLDER rotors were a bit thicker (measuring 24mm thick, an increase of about 33%), if you can on the rear, run 1989-1992 rear calipers and rotors for maximum braking; but running the new ones won't make any difference until you start pushing the heat envelope. And if you're doing that, I'd personally recommend the caliper relocation brackets and Cobra type rotors; along with possibly a Big Brake upgrade.

For the FRONT, you can use the Gen1 rotors with Gen2 calipers; there's a difference in the thickness, and it might not make much difference to your braking, but "center hub is the same size!" isn't quite the ONLY criteria, especially since the HUB itself didn't change from 1989 to 1998 (last year Mark VIII).

And there's more than you probably wanted to know about it *grins* And explains why "THESE %$*@w&$%^ PADS DON'T FIT!!!" on the back sometimes.

RwP

BUDXR7
04-15-2017, 06:03 PM
That's great Info. I'm a database guy so more is always better. Thank you.

BUDXR7
04-30-2017, 04:57 PM
Are there any opinions or experiences on whether the dust guard is necessary? Will it really funny down on a mess?

potshotscott
04-30-2017, 09:02 PM
I went with the Mustang 2 piston PBR brakes and I think that they work fine.

I've been following this thread for a while now trying to decode the information before heading to the junk yard for Mustang dual piston parts. What's this bracket that people speak of? Do I need the bracket to install 2004 Mustang dual piston cylinders on my stock 1994 Super Coupe?

I'm confused by this thread (http://www.tccoa.com/articles/mn12how-to/brake_upgrade/brake_upgrade.htm) that claims 2 piston PBR calipers are a direct bolt on. Wondering what these brackets are discussed in the thread? Are we just talking about the brackets that the pads fit into? If so can't I just rob the whole assembly from the donor car, turn the rotors, get new pads and do the swap??

RalphP
04-30-2017, 09:22 PM
Read the threads carefully.

You'll need the caliper BRACKET and the CALIPER both. That's everything out from the spindle.

And, if your car doesn't have a 1993+ spindle set, you'll need to upgrade to them also.

(A 2003 caliper will also work; 1999-2002 will work, but be SURE to get the banjo bolt! It's different.)

Now.

You will also need to clearance the caliper and/or the spindle where it will hit when the pads go all the way down.

I did the spindle; but if you're not comfortable, you can clearance the caliper. And it doesn't take much, mind you!

RwP