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View Full Version : HP guesses in the new year.....



XR7 Dave
01-04-2017, 09:24 PM
So guys, how much HP do you think our split port swapped XR7 will make with a turbo? Motor is stock and we don't want to break it so we aren't going to go crazy and it will be running on pump gas. Bone stock the split port made 173rwhp 194rwtq. Where will we go from here? :D

davec73
01-04-2017, 09:36 PM
It will make at least 450

dthompson
01-04-2017, 09:54 PM
my guess is 350whp with the stock cam... if that is what you mean by the motor is stock :)

ScrapSC
01-04-2017, 10:17 PM
525 😎 and grinning.

35thpartdeux
01-04-2017, 11:30 PM
At the motor I'm guessing 315. That 525 might work for a few hundred miles though :cool:

figulaz
01-05-2017, 12:09 AM
how much boost is planned? isn't 15lbs close to double whatever NA hp. there is more to it but a rough number

no164ford
01-05-2017, 01:57 AM
285 HP. 290 tq

XR7 Dave
01-05-2017, 12:32 PM
Come on guys, lets be realistic. It's a stock 99 split port 3.8L. It makes 173rwhp NA. It's going to run on pump gas.

It has stock hyperutectic pistons, a stock cast crank, and powered metal rods. It has stock valve springs and stock cam. Yes, it is STOCK.

On a good day 1psi boost can net maybe 15rwhp. So 10psi could maybe net 150rwhp. To get from 173rwhp to 500rwhp will require 500-173=327/15=22psi. Not happening. How much boost is safe with pump gas on powdered metal rods? There is no way we can run 20psi. Like I said, not an option to blow it up.

If everything works well at 10psi we might make 325rwhp, but I've also seen 1psi netting only 10rwhp in which case 10psi would net 275rwhp. If we do make 325rwhp, that would be pretty impressive considering the most I've seen an SC make (even highly modified) at 10psi is around 295rwhp.

It will be interesting to see how the motor responds in terms of HP/psi.

I guess I should rephrase the question - how much power do you think it will make at 10psi, and how much do you expect it will make at 14psi? I think that's as high as we will go on a totally stock 100k mile motor.

XR7 Dave
01-05-2017, 12:34 PM
At the motor I'm guessing 315. That 525 might work for a few hundred miles though :cool:oo

Good one. But I don't think 525rwhp would make it off the dyno, nevermind lasting for hundreds of miles. :D

ScrapSC
01-05-2017, 12:38 PM
You said "We don't want to break it." We never want to break stuff..... You never truly implied or I didn't take you as being SUPER serious "Its not an option to break it."

You can be very sneakily on these things.


305 to the wheels then......:p

dthompson
01-05-2017, 01:26 PM
I'll stick with my guess of 350whp at 14psi. 10psi I'd say 300whp.

no164ford
01-05-2017, 03:01 PM
I think 300 rwhp would be impressive @ 10 psi but I don't think you will get it.

XR7 Dave
01-05-2017, 03:23 PM
You can be very sneakily on these things.


Yes, yes I can. lol

pro street rich
01-05-2017, 03:33 PM
I would look for 398 hp with of course that funny gas I know you will be putting on there some place...lol.....Rich

Jacob_Royer
01-05-2017, 06:51 PM
I am going to say 322

no164ford
01-06-2017, 11:21 AM
I just assumed its a aod auto is it?

If its 5 speed then Id say +25-30 hp

XR7 Dave
01-06-2017, 12:28 PM
I just assumed its a aod auto is it?

If its 5 speed then Id say +25-30 hp

No, it's not an auto. The 99 3.8L was only rated at 190hp at the flywheel. With an AOD it would probably make 155rwhp. lol

TBirdJKC
01-06-2017, 12:38 PM
With only 10lbs. of boost I'm going to conservatively guess 275-290 at the tires

plethaus
01-06-2017, 05:45 PM
429whp... ;)

XR7 Dave
01-08-2017, 01:36 PM
Well first dyno session complete. This was with wastegate spring only, no boost controller so we were stuck with a measly 7.8psi but nonetheless, 310rwhp.

So Travis guessed 315 and Anthony guessed 305. We split the difference on purpose! lol Not really, it made what it wanted to make. We have gained about 17hp/psi so far but most likely gains will drop off a bit as we go up. We'd like to run 12psi I think on this motor which will hopefully be reliable. If we are lucky, that would mean another 60 or so HP. The goal is 350rwhp, but so we'll either stop at 12psi or 350rwhp, whichever comes first.

Anyone want to guess where we end up?

figulaz
01-08-2017, 03:24 PM
i think you stop at 365 rwhp even if its at 15lbs. boost is an addiction and the first step is admitting it... especially when all you need to do is twist a knob...no pulley swap nonsense:p..I know you said pump gas but is an e-85 tune in the cards? how much timing and iat temps is it logging? blow thru or draw thru awesome results... pics too pls!!

no164ford
01-08-2017, 08:42 PM
Dam I am impressed!

XR7 Dave
01-09-2017, 09:11 AM
It responded better than we thought it would. Of course we can't drive it now since we are in the midst of blizzard season, so on the road driving impressions will have to wait till spring. But we wanted to find out how a split port swap and turbo would compare to spending money on an M90 to get to the same power levels. It's pretty easy to get to 300rwhp with an M90, but we all know how hard it is to get from 300 to 350. With this setup it should be as easy as adding a boost controller.

This turbo setup is designed to be very user and service friendly, it can be used with AC and cruise, exhaust is relatively quiet, and it uses as much of the stock SC hardware as possible. I'll post pictures soon as well.

The tune is not aggressive because the motor is stock and we are understandably a bit nervous about the powder metal rods. If it were just a split port top end swap on a stock SC shortblock we'd have no worries about 15-16psi. We do plan to run E85 in spring but still won't be turning it up a whole lot because we just don't have the time/budget for a bottom end right now.

Jacob_Royer
01-09-2017, 09:34 AM
Makes me wonder what my 4.2 would do with a turbo.......

ScrapSC
01-09-2017, 11:06 AM
Impressive for that amount of boost. Looks like it will be in the 350 range with controller...

20psiofevil
01-09-2017, 08:10 PM
14psi should get you close to 350rwhp. I'd say swap in a small cam but stock can easily make enough power with a turbo to window the block.

Jacob_Royer
01-09-2017, 11:51 PM
It responded better than we thought it would. Of course we can't drive it now since we are in the midst of blizzard season, so on the road driving impressions will have to wait till spring. But we wanted to find out how a split port swap and turbo would compare to spending money on an M90 to get to the same power levels. It's pretty easy to get to 300rwhp with an M90, but we all know how hard it is to get from 300 to 350. With this setup it should be as easy as adding a boost controller.

This turbo setup is designed to be very user and service friendly, it can be used with AC and cruise, exhaust is relatively quiet, and it uses as much of the stock SC hardware as possible. I'll post pictures soon as well.

The tune is not aggressive because the motor is stock and we are understandably a bit nervous about the powder metal rods. If it were just a split port top end swap on a stock SC shortblock we'd have no worries about 15-16psi. We do plan to run E85 in spring but still won't be turning it up a whole lot because we just don't have the time/budget for a bottom end right now.


Can a turbo setup retaining ac etc be built that supports 500rwhp?

XR7 Dave
01-10-2017, 08:01 AM
Can a turbo setup retaining ac etc be built that supports 500rwhp? Of course.

dthompson
01-10-2017, 08:32 AM
Of course.

Dave is going to let me try it out on mine and see!

Jacob_Royer
01-10-2017, 09:05 AM
Of course.

I am waiting for clark to figure out all the demons of the aje crossmember
then I will get one. Seems like it would leave alot more room for such a build.
Seems more economical than a tvs...build a custom upper for an na lower.

ScrapSC
01-10-2017, 09:31 AM
If you already have the supporting mods for your amped up MPIII or MPX the TVS isn't that bad if you want to go the supercharger route. I do see the benefits of the turbo though... It seems as though it would require more fabrication.... If you think about it, Dave N had his black car with AC and it was capable of a 9 second pass and then could be tamed down to cruise on the street.....

XR7 Dave
01-10-2017, 12:40 PM
K member is irrelevant.

plethaus
01-10-2017, 12:48 PM
Can a turbo setup retaining ac etc be built that supports 500rwhp?

There's one on my car right now

Jacob_Royer
01-10-2017, 03:16 PM
K member is irrelev.

I figured it would make the hotside easier to plumb and the car easier
to work on in general. realisticly to make 500rwhp would I need a turbo
so large it would be lag city?

plethaus
01-10-2017, 04:12 PM
It depends a lot on the engine, the turbo, etc. On my car, with a really mild 3.8, we tried to go with a turbo that was big enough to give a little room to grow but hopefully keeping lag to a minimum. We ended up switching to an even smaller housing after the fact just to help spool a little more. It definitely takes a different technique to make use of it, but you quickly learn.

neverfastenough
01-10-2017, 06:09 PM
I figured it would make the hotside easier to plumb and the car easier
to work on in general. realisticly to make 500rwhp would I need a turbo
so large it would be lag city?

One's opinion on lag is basically going to be based on how they like to enjoy their car. Any turbo worth putting on is going to "lag" to some degree.

The drag strip is no big deal, you don't have to worry about lag there, the right setup will leave as hard as you want it to. The street is a whole different story

sanddune24
01-10-2017, 09:27 PM
There's one on my car right now

Very interesting, Is there a big change in the cam you need to use for a turbo setup over one you would use on late model M90 or an MPX?

20psiofevil
01-10-2017, 10:57 PM
I figured it would make the hotside easier to plumb and the car easier
to work on in general. realisticly to make 500rwhp would I need a turbo
so large it would be lag city?

For a turbo newb with a 4.2 I'd recommend an on3 70mm with 68 ar. I ran a 6262 on my 4.3l and it made target boost with half throttle. I did not care for instant boost because way to much tq to control.

Jacob_Royer
01-11-2017, 01:28 AM
A turbo setup that spools like my 3.5 EcoBoost would be nice lol but I know
that is s pipe dream considering the tiny turbos on the truck. I actually have a turbo
grind in my car now. I run 3.73s and a 2800stall non locking aod I am curious if I would
have to make any changes to that setup to utilize a turbo. .

Broncojohnny
01-23-2017, 12:54 PM
Not sure if you have dynoed this one again but I would think you would get your 350 hp right around 12 psi of boost. You don't have to use any horsepower to turn a blower and that makes a big difference.

XR7 Dave
01-23-2017, 02:00 PM
We did get the car back on the dyno. We increased boost to 11.5psi to reach our goal of 350rwhp. After 25 dyno pulls the combo is running great. Can't wait for spring to get it out on the street and to the track.

neverfastenough
01-23-2017, 05:35 PM
This is a really big deal

XR7 Phillip
01-23-2017, 05:50 PM
25 pulls??? :eek: I'm going to have to change the oil when I get back just cause of all those miles. Lol

plethaus
01-23-2017, 06:29 PM
Sweet! What did Phil put in the exhaust setup? Also did you run the WG internal?

XR7 Dave
01-23-2017, 10:00 PM
Sweet! What did Phil put in the exhaust setup? Also did you run the WG internal?

We did plumb the waste gate back in. We are using the old supercharger exhaust system minus the resonator. It's pretty quiet. Dumping the down pipe netted about 10rwhp.

ScrapSC
01-24-2017, 12:41 PM
Those are some impressive numbers!! :D

Broncojohnny
01-25-2017, 06:08 PM
Sounds real nice. This makes me want to dig up a turbo at the junkyard and do the conversion on my death trap.

TBirdJKC
01-26-2017, 01:24 PM
25 pulls??? :eek: I'm going to have to change the oil when I get back just cause of all those miles. Lol

And refill the gas tank!

XR7 Dave
01-27-2017, 12:55 PM
And refill the gas tank!

Yep, it's about empty. lol

20psiofevil
01-27-2017, 08:07 PM
Dave did you ever list what snail youre using?

XR7 Dave
01-28-2017, 09:43 AM
Dave did you ever list what snail youre using?

It's a Precision CEA 6062. Sadly we are currently completely unable to get this turbo into it's happy place. lol

20psiofevil
01-28-2017, 04:41 PM
It's a Precision CEA 6062. Sadly we are currently completely unable to get this turbo into it's happy place. lol

Awesome! Now build a 4.3l and buy a 2nd 6062:D

XR7 Dave
01-29-2017, 02:22 PM
Awesome! Now build a 4.3l and buy a 2nd 6062:D

This build is going in a different direction. But to weigh in a bit to your suggestion, with the complexity of an SC already in mind, twins is not a real effective use of space and money. A single is quite capable of putting a 4.2 underwater and be still very streetable at the same time.

This 6062 is rated for 750hp (say 600rwhp) so clearly we aren't anywhere near maxing this turbo out. Our problem at the moment is that the stock split port engine really isn't safe at the higher boost levels associated with this power level. As I'm sure you know, turbo's all have efficiency maps and we are way off that right now which is killing efficiency. If we had the ability to turn the boost up things would be an entirely different story, I am sure.

For now this is basically an exercise to demonstrate what can easily be done with a stock motor and mild boost on pump gas.

sam jones
01-29-2017, 02:59 PM
QUOTE=
For now this is basically an exercise to demonstrate what can easily be done with a stock motor and mild boost on pump gas.[/QUOTE]


Good afternoon

Great read. Any pictures to be posted?

figulaz
01-29-2017, 04:45 PM
I love the turbo builds on here. need some pics tho! fun idea with the n/a block...tons of them out there on the cheap...lo line tbirds and mustangs, neglected v6 F150s too. I saw some manifolds on your FB... I don't think it was this particular build but couldn't really see what you did? it looked like manifolds swapped sides to faced forward and lopped off and welded pipe and vbands accordingly. are you using some hi nickel magical cast approriate wire?..

XR7 Dave
01-29-2017, 05:42 PM
Yeah, I just have to get unlazy and upload pics, video, etc. We use manifolds that have been converted to V-band connections. Yes, they are welded using the appropriate methods. :)

20psiofevil
01-30-2017, 08:46 PM
That turbo is rated similar to what my 6262 was. I think that turbo is an excellent choice for a stock engine.

XR7 Dave
01-31-2017, 08:25 AM
That turbo is rated similar to what my 6262 was. I think that turbo is an excellent choice for a stock engine.

I think it's too much turbo for this application. We'll see.

neverfastenough
01-31-2017, 08:41 AM
I think it's too much turbo for this application. We'll see.

I concur:)

20psiofevil
01-31-2017, 08:02 PM
I think it's too much turbo for this application. We'll see.

A 4431e with .63 t3 would support 450rwhp and over 500ftlbs on a 3.8l but it hits to hard to fast for mustang rods. How does that one spool?

35thpartdeux
01-31-2017, 09:34 PM
I think it's too much turbo for this application. We'll see.
So you mean just enough :cool:

XR7 Dave
01-31-2017, 11:07 PM
So you mean just enough :cool:

Doesn't really work that way. If you can't get the compressor up on it's efficiency map then it doesn't perform well. Bigger is not better unless that is actually what you need. A system of matched components is the goal here.

90blkbrd
02-12-2017, 11:09 AM
2 weeks later and still no pictures.

Ever since Corey built his first turbo setup I've wanted to know what a bone stock 95 auto and just add a turbo and exhaust could do. And keeping air conditioning.

ScrapSC
02-13-2017, 01:37 PM
Yeah,, What he said... ^^^^^^

kenewagner
02-13-2017, 03:03 PM
Yeh I would like to see the turbo car. Will it still be a SC or will it be something else:rolleyes:

Ken

plethaus
02-13-2017, 07:34 PM
Yeh I would like to see the turbo car. Will it still be a SC or will it be something else:rolleyes:

Ken

It's now a SuperTurboCoupe

neverfastenough
02-13-2017, 08:11 PM
It's now a SuperTurboCoupe

It's an xr7, no name change needed :)

plethaus
02-13-2017, 08:27 PM
Oh yeah, forgot lol.

XR7 Dave
02-13-2017, 08:30 PM
The Tbirds will now be called Subiecoupes.

XR7 Dave
02-13-2017, 08:47 PM
A couple pictures for the impatient ones. :)


66739

66740


It really is a lot easier to work on than a supercharged SC, that's for sure.

kenewagner
02-14-2017, 10:27 AM
Very Very nice

Ken

XR7 Dave
02-14-2017, 04:10 PM
Very Very nice

Ken

Thanks Ken! It's been fun so far.

XR7 Dave
02-14-2017, 08:03 PM
Video, pardon the tire spin. :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuta7BgghQA

plethaus
02-14-2017, 08:21 PM
Nice dyno video...

Also, it sure would be nice to be able to hear my turbo at WOT :p

neverfastenough
02-14-2017, 08:36 PM
Nice dyno video...

Also, it sure would be nice to be able to hear my turbo at WOT :p

Only sissy people plumb their wg back in :D. I'm sure the public can hear it.

plethaus
02-14-2017, 08:50 PM
Only sissy people plumb their wg back in :D. I'm sure the public can hear it.

Sorry, what was that? I can't hWSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH *shift* WSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

kenewagner
02-15-2017, 09:52 AM
Thanks Ken! It's been fun so far.

Did you fabricate the exhaust manifolds? They look real clean and professional.

Ken

CMac89
02-15-2017, 04:35 PM
A turbo setup that spools like my 3.5 EcoBoost would be nice lol but I know
that is s pipe dream considering the tiny turbos on the truck. I actually have a turbo
grind in my car now. I run 3.73s and a 2800stall non locking aod I am curious if I would
have to make any changes to that setup to utilize a turbo. .

Part of the transition will include a converter change for auto cars. Then all else is dependent on your goals/expectations. Spool is dependent on a decent amount of specs, but it will make power regardless of what you have. Optimization is a tricky concept.

The stall speeds that guys currently run for blower cars is too low, so it definitely will be for turbos. Since you don't get boost as quick with a turbo, you'll need to help it by loosening it up. Converter requirements are more dynamic for turbo setups than NA or blower engines.

I think some people are silly on when they want power to come in. Like, 2500 RPM? There's no feasibility there. So if you have a turbo that spools at 3000RPM (or 3500 even), then you'll need to set up your car to accommodate for that. Your car will be faster, the higher RPM your operating range is, regardless. You can realistically expect these engines to make 500rwhp with a 3000RPM spool speed, given a proper setup. Converting over to turbo with a given any setup, it won't be a guaranteed.

Another thing to consider is that once you get to the 400+rwhp range, premium pump gas isn't a very robust or reliable fuel to use. You assume risk with a turbo because you can easily turn boost up to make 500+whp, but pump gas wont support it. A big turbo kind of helps things in the detonation world because they spool when piston speeds are high, thus the cylinder pressures are lower. In other words....CORN.

figulaz
02-15-2017, 11:28 PM
that thing looks top shelf!! SCU does it again. You're a lucky young man Phil! is this the car with the 6 speed swap?

20psiofevil
02-16-2017, 08:44 PM
A couple pictures for the impatient ones. :)

Dave, any pics of how you plumed the passenger side header? Do flipped headers hit the motor mount on a sc like they do on sn95 on that side or does it require finesse also?

dthompson
02-16-2017, 10:26 PM
Another thing to consider is that once you get to the 400+rwhp range, premium pump gas isn't a very robust or reliable fuel to use. You assume risk with a turbo because you can easily turn boost up to make 500+whp, but pump gas wont support it. A big turbo kind of helps things in the detonation world because they spool when piston speeds are high, thus the cylinder pressures are lower. In other words....CORN.

I'm interested in this statement. I understand the general concept of octane and dynamic compression... but I have not seen something in writing that supports what you say. What happens if you have a SC based car that makes 400whp at 17 psi on pump gas and you install a turbo kit making 17 psi and still run pump gas? my guess would be that with the turbo kit would be pretty close to 500whp using pump gas. Or am i just misreading what you are saying?

Thanks,
Derek

Toms-SC
02-16-2017, 11:44 PM
I feel the need to post.

XR7 Phillip
02-17-2017, 12:11 AM
that thing looks top shelf!! SCU does it again. You're a lucky young man Phil! is this the car with the 6 speed swap?

Yeah, this is the same car that I 6spd swapped a couple years ago. After I rowed that extra gear for the first time, I never looked back. Lol

sam jones
02-17-2017, 03:55 AM
I'm interested in this statement. I understand the general concept of octane and dynamic compression... but I have not seen something in writing that supports what you say. What happens if you have a SC based car that makes 400whp at 17 psi on pump gas and you install a turbo kit making 17 psi and still run pump gas? my guess would be that with the turbo kit would be pretty close to 500whp using pump gas. Or am i just misreading what you are saying?

Thanks,
Derek

Good morning


I agree with Mr. Derek until I read the following post by XR7 Dave. As I understand the information a 400 hp blower driven SC engine is close to a max out burning premium pump gas alone.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?125838-400rwhp-on-91-octane&p=995139#post995139

XR7 Dave
02-17-2017, 08:37 AM
17psi on pump gas is pushing your luck, regardless of measured HP. Most people running this level of boost are using a supplement such as alcohol injection. Due to the increased exhaust temperatures with a turbocharger, boost levels that "seem" ok with a supercharger (typically light detonation) will result in severe detonation with a turbocharger. This is due primarily to the increased exhaust temperature.

You will make more HP with a turbo compared to a supercharger, exactly how much more is not a pencil and paper calculation. With the right fuel the power gains can be significant.

CMac89
02-17-2017, 10:15 AM
I'm interested in this statement. I understand the general concept of octane and dynamic compression... but I have not seen something in writing that supports what you say. What happens if you have a SC based car that makes 400whp at 17 psi on pump gas and you install a turbo kit making 17 psi and still run pump gas? my guess would be that with the turbo kit would be pretty close to 500whp using pump gas. Or am i just misreading what you are saying?

Thanks,
Derek

Yes, there will be a HP difference when going turbo because you aren't driving a blower, but you still assume the same risk. Since the turbos are spooling around 2800-3200 rpm, that's still far below the 5200 HP / TQ crossover point, so cylinder pressures are still a concern for turbos.

Part of the point I was trying to make is that this group has good awareness about limits of how much one can overdrive the blowers and they have a mechanical inefficiency posing as a safety-net built in to them that prevents too much boost being ran. With a turbo, you push a couple of buttons in your car, or you get out and turn the boost controller and you go from a pet to a monster in seconds. So using a fuel that can't handle a monster, but can feed a pet only is a recipe for disaster.

I'm sure Dave has experience repairing detonated engines because of pump gas at levels even lower than 400rwhp. Considering magnitude of affect, there are many other engines that get destroyed because of pump gas being non-robust for their power levels. It's all too common.

kenewagner
02-17-2017, 01:24 PM
Yes, there will be a HP difference when going turbo because you aren't driving a blower, but you still assume the same risk. Since the turbos are spooling around 2800-3200 rpm, that's still far below the 5200 HP / TQ crossover point, so cylinder pressures are still a concern for turbos.

Part of the point I was trying to make is that this group has good awareness about limits of how much one can overdrive the blowers and they have a mechanical inefficiency posing as a safety-net built in to them that prevents too much boost being ran. With a turbo, you push a couple of buttons in your car, or you get out and turn the boost controller and you go from a pet to a monster in seconds. So using a fuel that can't handle a monster, but can feed a pet only is a recipe for disaster.

I'm sure Dave has experience repairing detonated engines because of pump gas at levels even lower than 400rwhp. Considering magnitude of affect, there are many other engines that get destroyed because of pump gas being non-robust for their power levels. It's all too common.

So everything you say makes sense, which is what I would expect from you. Is there a formula for other grades of fuel. I am running only 100 octane unlead at this time. What would be the HP limit on that. I know timing and other factors apply, just a rough guess

Ken

dthompson
02-17-2017, 03:07 PM
thanks for the replies! I'm not sure I can see that it is worth the effort/expense to convert to a turbo (in my case) if I only want to run pump gas. E85 is very hit or miss around here, so it is not practical to switch fuel in my case. If 15-17psi (or 375-400whp) is the approximate octane limit of pump gas, and you are already there, why convert? or am i missing something? It seems that this turbo set up is a cheaper way to get to where Im currently at :-)

rzimmerl
02-17-2017, 03:11 PM
Where you are at now you'll need to switch fuel or run snow methonal injection kit like most of us and up the boost. I've always run pump 93 and alky injection as E85 is non existent in my area, and yes made 506 on pump 93. Then would be the decision to find a twin screw or resort to the dark side.

David Neibert
02-17-2017, 05:30 PM
Where you are at now you'll need to switch fuel or run snow methonal injection kit like most of us and up the boost. I've always run pump 93 and alky injection as E85 is non existent in my area, and yes made 506 on pump 93. Then would be the decision to find a twin screw or resort to the dark side.

Same here, making right around 500 rwhp with 93 octane and methanol injection using the 2.3 whipple at about 21 pounds of boost. Could make more power switching to E85, but it's not widely available in the STL area. I already did the turbo thing and while I agree that the power they make is very impressive, it's not all peaches and cream. Takes some time to sort out the combo and managing the extra heat under the hood is also something to consider. That said, it's really cool, when you can smoke the tires from a 70 mph roll on the highway.

David

20psiofevil
02-17-2017, 07:32 PM
There is no comparison between a roots blower at 17psi and a 62mm turbo at 17psi. The turbo is going to move more air. I've got logs showing a 62mm a 16-18psi and max maf ad counts were 820's, load 160. Switched to an s366 and 870/190. So the 66mm was moving more air as it showed in fuel trims and mph at the strip.

dthompson
02-17-2017, 08:30 PM
i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.

XR7 Dave
02-18-2017, 10:20 AM
i didn't mean to derail the thread... It is an interesting discussion about octane limits. something I was not all that familiar with, but something one must consider in deciding what they want out of their car.

I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. :) Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it. :)

1FSTBRD
02-18-2017, 11:06 AM
Some good words, Dave.

Jacob_Royer
02-19-2017, 07:27 AM
I understand. Everyone has their own set of concerns and interests based on their unique situation which is a combination of their mods and their expectations. However, I think the thing that has been skirted around like the proverbial elephant in the room, is that we are all looking for ways to make our cars more fun.

A car is no fun if the power band isn't where you can use it, or if the boost range is inaccessible due to cylinder pressure or rpm, etc. From my perspective, and since I do not have the luxury of owning just one project car, I can take this back to 2001 when I had a well modded M90 based car. It made 12-13psi and I ran 12.5's with it under ideal conditions. That car was as fast as most of the cars you guys are driving now so I guess I should have been happy. But the two things that bothered me most about it was that the power band started at 3000rpm and petered off from there. Guys that's not fun, I don't care how fast it is. If you can't feel the power band, then it just takes the thrill out. I was used to higher HP NA engines that have a definite power band that you can feel come in with rpm. My car didn't have that.

The other thing that my M90 car had was ridiculous wheel hop. The torque comes in so fast and so hard that the 5spd was murder to try and put the power down. I literally broke two axles at the same time on the track. When I switched to the AR I found that the car wheel hopped less. It made about 80rwhp more, but it hopped less. The car also developed a bit of a power band. It was a strange sensation to be able to hook the tires in 3rd and then feel them start to spin again as it hit about 4800-5000rpm. This reminded me more of my old NA big block days. So it was fun.

So why bother looking at turbo's? Well things change. Technology improves, things become readily available that weren't a few years ago, information is much more readily available, it's just different today.

I considered doing turbos instead of the AR's back in 2003 when I started all this. But information was scarce and frankly it just didn't seem viable as there were too many unknowns. Not to mention the angst among SC owners at the time against anything not M90. It was just to big of a step, and furthermore, it wasn't necessary. When a 2003 Cobra made 360rwhp, making 400rwhp was enough to turn heads. Of course we all know what 400rwhp will do for you in 2017. No one could have predicted that we'd have bone stock Mustangs making 400rwhp. Things change.

For now we are looking at a new model of how to make a turbo work best for an SC. We have started out with a small turbo on a mild engine so that someone buying a car or starting to mod it now can have an idea of how changing over to a turbo now before spending a lot of money on a supercharger, can benefit them. Absolutely we know how to make big power with turbo, that has never been a question. The question has always been, how can we make that practical or achievable for a beginner or for someone with milder expectations. We have started there with this kit.

So far I can tell you a few things - first of all, wheel hop is almost completely eliminated. Now even a 5spd car builds torque smoothly like an auto rather than violently like we are all used to. Second, the engine now has an amazing power band. It's not that the turbo creates this power band more than it actually "releases" it. No longer does the motor act like it has a brake being gradually applied with rpm. The engine simply runs the rpm band it was designed to operate in. Well, and plus a little. That's fun.

Which brings me to the fun factor. Take the wheel hop down a notch - or 2 - and take the power band up a notch - or 2 - and that's where the fun factor is. It takes a lot more doing to properly match a hot side with the airflow and boost you want to run for any particular given application, but the results are worth it. It's not a "one size fits all" deal because the needs of a 9000rpm 1.6L engine are quite different from a 5000rpm 3.8L even if the HP outputs are the same. A turbo that works great on the 1.6 will be a mismatch on the 3.8. It's not like the supercharger world where for the most part bigger is better.

All that aside, people just want to know "how much power can I make and how much will it cost". HP/$$. Well I'm not going to have that discussion with you. :) Physics and science don't step aside just so that the SC world can languish. The science is proven and the fact is you can't make more power any other way, so this is the way we are going. We'll figure out what works best for us and maximize our results. If you are passionate about your SC then most likely this will be part of your future. SCUI has I think 5 supercharger kits on pre-order at the moment but after that we won't be making any more.

It's time to embrace the future, and the future includes a turbo and E85. You will always be able to make more power on pump gas with a turbo than you can with a Supercharger, most likely in the neighborhood of 50-80rwhp, but the real power lies in the ability to run 20-25psi if you really want to, whether it's on race fuel or E85. It's frankly more fun than a supercharger. Especially on the street and particularly at lower boost levels where most of you spend 99% of your time. All the fast kids will be doing it. :)


So when will you start producing a viable turbo kit? Or at least a hotside? I love the powerband of my ecoboost it really growson you! I am to the point where I feel like I have hit a 15psi road block with an m90.

Creighton
02-19-2017, 05:11 PM
Thanks for all of the great information. Clean slate on my seized motor 95.
Will be following this.
Creighton

CMac89
02-20-2017, 11:57 AM
Dave puts it into perspective about progressing a community. Of course, you can get a 3.4 Whipple and put it on there, and I'd love for someone to do that. Then you're talking about hood clearance issues and modifying a section of a firewall. Turbo is just a more concise package that has great capabilities and street manners.

Of course it depends on what your requirements and goals are. To each their own.


So everything you say makes sense, which is what I would expect from you. Is there a formula for other grades of fuel. I am running only 100 octane unlead at this time. What would be the HP limit on that. I know timing and other factors apply, just a rough guess


Not to change the momentum of Dave's post:

I'm not aware of a formula; but there's plenty of people out there that run the same fuel to get an experimental estimation. E85 pump will let you run around 1000whp in a 6 cylinder. Probably more, but i'm not comfortable doing more with a 6 cylinder. Race E85 or E99 can make much more. For 100 octane gas, I'm not sure what its limit would be. I think 100 octane would only be enough to feel comfortable making 450-500whp using a turbo. I wouldn't use it as a way to make much more power than 93. Someone would need to put EGT on all cylinders to be able to see how much power you can safely make. Nobody really does that around here, so headgaskets/bearings are what tells the story, which is slow feedback.

You have to be careful when thinking octane. There are other factors than octane that are to be considered in the capability of a fuel. Latent heat of vaporization, distillation end points, and octane are just some of the factors to consider. To simplify a way of thinking, a fuel becomes dangerous to an engine whenever cylinder temperatures start to rise to the point of detonation. Some fuels have low temperature distillation end points and the enthalpy of vaporization is low, which keeps cylinder temperatures lower. Octane compounds with their effect by allowing the fuel to burn slower. E85 (or alcohols for that matter) are great for lowering risk of detonation because they burn much cooler than gas. Gas needs a lot of octane because the atomization does not have as much cooling effect as alcohols. E85 is around 105 octane and it burns cooler than gas.

Double Whammy

kenewagner
02-20-2017, 03:10 PM
For 100 octane gas, I'm not sure what its limit would be. I think 100 octane would only be enough to feel comfortable making 450-500whp using a turbo. I wouldn't use it as a way to make much more power than 93. Someone would need to put EGT on all cylinders to be able to see how much power you can safely make. Nobody really does that around here, so headgaskets/bearings are what tells the story, which is slow feedback.

You and corey have made big turbo HP. What fuel are or were running, E85? I can get 110 but its leaded and would foul my O2 sensors. E 85 is everywhere here in Omaha. I am running 80lb injectors now but don't know if that would be enough to run E85 to run well into the 500 range. That and a whole new tune. E85 would be a lot cheaper than what Im doing now. A lot to think about

Ken

pro street rich
02-21-2017, 02:22 PM
years ago I took a brand new nos engine and added a bunch of stuff to it.. I had the best of the best and had it tuned. that thing was a rocket ship. Even when Dave D tuned it he was surprised by how everything worked together and how much power it made.. Then one day it went BOOM and I do mean BOOM.. I guess this was a simple case of over riding the gas that was in this car as has been talked about here.. I do beleive that there is a lot of truth to the over killing of pump gas in these cars... Just had to say something on that matter....Rich

1FSTBRD
02-21-2017, 07:25 PM
I know that this is a turbo NA split port discussion, but as someone that has beefed up their NA 3.8 split port Mustang (higher compression custom ported heads, cam, tune, 4.10's etc etc), I can say that they're capable of being pretty badass. What I like about the stock Ford split ports is the multi-angle valve job.....it's really effective. I flow tested them with a crude vacuum setup, and the exhaust ports, there's this ridge right beneath the valve port that directs lower lift air from a slow moving area of the valve out the sides, and speeds it up around to the exhaust port exit side. I had a spare pair of heads that someone had removed that ridge, and with a string/ vacuum test, it lost that velocity. It was interesting to do a few tests and try a few different things and then see what worked the best.

1FSTBRD
02-22-2017, 12:35 AM
....Forgot to mention, way to go Dave! 350 hp out of the stock lower end (from what I can tell?) with a turbo is amazing. I believe that the most that I can remember the Procharged/ cam/ intake/ 4.2 stroker/ forged bottom end split port intake guys were getting was around 375 rwhp.

20psiofevil
02-22-2017, 08:28 PM
....Forgot to mention, way to go Dave! 350 hp out of the stock lower end (from what I can tell?) with a turbo is amazing. I believe that the most that I can remember the Procharged/ cam/ intake/ 4.2 stroker/ forged bottom end split port intake guys were getting was around 375 rwhp.

This was the best I got out of my stock mustang engine with procharger. Looking back at that af I'm surprised it lived! I believe with a healthy tune it could of made 390-400rwhp. I was fighting the returnless fuel system back then also.

1FSTBRD
02-23-2017, 01:01 AM
This was the best I got out of my stock mustang engine with procharger. Looking back at that af I'm surprised it lived! I believe with a healthy tune it could of made 390-400rwhp. I was fighting the returnless fuel system back then also.

Stock? Wow. That's awesome! The bottom end on the 3.8's is much more durable than it gets credit for. On the Mustang forums, 275-300 ish rwhp was the commonly advised power level not to exceed with a Procharger setup running 7-8 or so PSI in stock form, but I don't know if anyone had actually ran their particular setup higher than that to test it out. Clearly you had, so it's good to see that someone had rolled the dice.

Does anyone know the real limit to the stock bottom end on the 3.8's? As in turned up the boost until it physically blew? Obviously the M90 would create lots of heat, but I'd be interested in what the actual limits of a turbo'd/ Procharged setup would be.

XR7 Dave
02-23-2017, 07:29 AM
Stock? Wow. That's awesome! The bottom end on the 3.8's is much more durable than it gets credit for. On the Mustang forums, 275-300 ish rwhp was the commonly advised power level not to exceed with a Procharger setup running 7-8 or so PSI in stock form, but I don't know if anyone had actually ran their particular setup higher than that to test it out. Clearly you had, so it's good to see that someone had rolled the dice.

Does anyone know the real limit to the stock bottom end on the 3.8's? As in turned up the boost until it physically blew? Obviously the M90 would create lots of heat, but I'd be interested in what the actual limits of a turbo'd/ Procharged setup would be.

It's a dangerous game to play. One person has a personal experience that they consider to be gospel, someone else bets their kids future on achieving the same result and boom. I have played that game many times and the longer I live the more I realize that it's a fool's game. One person might be fine with the idea that their engine might explode at any minute but the next person might consider that traumatizing.

It would have been very easy for us to turn the boost up on our $200 JY motor and "see" where it goes but if I have learned anything over the years it is to act more responsibly than I think. So that's what we have done here. With the right pieces in place, we will satisfy everyone's burning desire to see what is possible vs. what is responsible. And no, that doesn't mean we are going to blow up a stock 3.8L. What it means is we are building a solid bottom end and some good valvetrain so we can safely turn it up. :)

plethaus
02-23-2017, 07:28 PM
Here is my own car. You can see I hit the rev limiter in second.. I ran into it just because the powerband is now so much more linear that 6000 feels like 5000 used to (I was still getting used to that.) I am taking it back to Dave this summer for E85 conversion 'cuz it's easier to find it here than 93 octane is now. Also note how the camera gets pushed backwards in perfect time with the way the power comes on, lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gsZYiXCojA

TBirdJKC
02-23-2017, 07:47 PM
Here is my own car. You can see I hit the rev limiter in second.. I ran into it just because the powerband is now so much more linear that 6000 feels like 5000 used to (I was still getting used to that.) I am taking it back to Dave this summer for E85 conversion 'cuz it's easier to find it here than 93 octane is now. Also note how the camera gets pushed backwards in perfect time with the way the power comes on, lol:


I love the way that thing sounds. Racecar exhaust FTW!

1FSTBRD
02-23-2017, 08:48 PM
It's a dangerous game to play. One person has a personal experience that they consider to be gospel, someone else bets their kids future on achieving the same result and boom. I have played that game many times and the longer I live the more I realize that it's a fool's game. One person might be fine with the idea that their engine might explode at any minute but the next person might consider that traumatizing.

It would have been very easy for us to turn the boost up on our $200 JY motor and "see" where it goes but if I have learned anything over the years it is to act more responsibly than I think. So that's what we have done here. With the right pieces in place, we will satisfy everyone's burning desire to see what is possible vs. what is responsible. And no, that doesn't mean we are going to blow up a stock 3.8L. What it means is we are building a solid bottom end and some good valvetrain so we can safely turn it up. :)

That's the smart route. :D Either way, I'm impressed at the power levels you're currently at on a stock bottom end.

I'd finally figured out why my Mustang wasn't idling right after I'd installed the cam last year Dave......it was a bad/ errant injector. It was driving me nuts. The car was running pretty good still, but it felt like the AFR's were off. I'd installed new injectors last week after troubleshooting a bunch of things and some smoke tests and various things and it's a completely different beast.