PDA

View Full Version : Issues with A/C Compressor, and an update on my SC



Roboplex
04-01-2017, 03:00 PM
So I just got my SC's cooling fan motor replaced, along with the IRCM, and it's helped with my overheating issue I had quite a few months ago. The mechanic also fixed some vacuum leaks in the new brake system so it's not stalling at traffic lights anymore. So at least she's drivable now.

However, I'm having an issue with my A/C. My A/C Compressor started smoking today. Yesterday after getting it home from the shop, the A/C was blowing ice cold, and I didn't notice any abnormal smell. Today, I started her up, turned on the A/C, and it was blowing warm air (not hot, it had been cooled a little bit). After a few minutes of running, I noticed a burning smell, it started blowing HOT air, and the compressor started smoking about where the pulley meets the compressor itself. The belt also started shaking when this happened.

A few hours later, I started it up, the same thing happened, but I caught it before it started smoking. I drove it with the A/C off, and it seemed fine. I turned the A/C on while I was driving, and it blew cold air like nothing happened, but I turned it back off just in case. I do know the car has a mild freon leak somewhere (it's been about a year since it's been recharged, but it was blowing ice cold yesterday), and the compressor has been rebuilt at least once that I know of (there's a sticker on the compressor that says so).

I'd love your input on this, and I'm glad to be back on SCCOA.

Joseph B.

MadMikeyL
04-01-2017, 04:44 PM
If there is smoke coming from the compressor, then it is locking up. When it locks up, the compressor clutch and/or the belt slips, causing the smoke. Replace the compressor, flush the system, fix the leak, and refill it with the proper amount of refrigerant and pag oil.

Roboplex
04-01-2017, 07:09 PM
If there is smoke coming from the compressor, then it is locking up. When it locks up, the compressor clutch and/or the belt slips, causing the smoke. Replace the compressor, flush the system, fix the leak, and refill it with the proper amount of refrigerant and pag oil.

Thanks! I found a compressor online for like $120, so I'll order it and tell you how it goes. In your opinion, should I replace the condenser as well? I read that it's a general rule that you should, but I really don't want to spend extra money if I don't have to. I'd just like your opinion.

Thanks!
Joseph B.

RalphP
04-01-2017, 08:04 PM
Thanks! I found a compressor online for like $120, so I'll order it and tell you how it goes. In your opinion, should I replace the condenser as well? I read that it's a general rule that you should, but I really don't want to spend extra money if I don't have to. I'd just like your opinion.

Thanks!
Joseph B.

The condensor NEEDS to be flushed.

The current designs don't flush well, so it's better to replace.

It's your choice, though; a little now and a little again later; or a bit more now and no more later *grins*

(Besides, a new compressor from RockAuto is around $80; cheap at twice the price IMO. Also, replace the accumulator and the orifice tube; both will be crapped by the compressor failing. Still flush the evaporator, or as soon as it fires up, it'll start spitting the crap from the failed compressor into the new one, killing IT also. Le sigh.)

A reman'ed kit with the accumulator and the orifice tube hose is around $160 at RockAuto (new is under $200). I'm in the same category; I've got a leak at the compressor (an old SC compressor) on my 1991 Cougar, so I'm going to go for the new compressor, new accumulator, new orifice tube hose and condensor and flushing all else out (I don't think the compressor spit itself; it's just leaking around the front seal now. Le sigh.) Good news, I have the gauges and the vacuum pump. Bad news, it's STILL over $330.

RwP

Roboplex
04-01-2017, 11:06 PM
The condensor NEEDS to be flushed.

The current designs don't flush well, so it's better to replace.

It's your choice, though; a little now and a little again later; or a bit more now and no more later *grins*

(Besides, a new compressor from RockAuto is around $80; cheap at twice the price IMO. Also, replace the accumulator and the orifice tube; both will be crapped by the compressor failing. Still flush the evaporator, or as soon as it fires up, it'll start spitting the crap from the failed compressor into the new one, killing IT also. Le sigh.)

A reman'ed kit with the accumulator and the orifice tube hose is around $160 at RockAuto (new is under $200). I'm in the same category; I've got a leak at the compressor (an old SC compressor) on my 1991 Cougar, so I'm going to go for the new compressor, new accumulator, new orifice tube hose and condensor and flushing all else out (I don't think the compressor spit itself; it's just leaking around the front seal now. Le sigh.) Good news, I have the gauges and the vacuum pump. Bad news, it's STILL over $330.

RwP
From my understanding, it's most likely the clutch that's bad, since the pulley seized up causing the smoke, not the internals of the compressor, correct? In that case, wouldn't the condenser be fine, since the clutch doesn't have anything to do with the actual refrigerant itself, and there wouldn't be any debris in the system? I don't have any access to compressed air to flush the condenser, and I'd rather not take it to a mechanic (just dropped $500 on repairs last week). Like you said, the condensers are cheap, and I could do that myself since I wouldn't need to flush it. I'm willing to do whatever I need to get it fixed, I just don't want to do anything that's unnecessary. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what I need to do.

I really appreciate your help!

RalphP
04-01-2017, 11:21 PM
From my understanding, it's most likely the clutch that's bad, since the pulley seized up causing the smoke, not the internals of the compressor, correct? In that case, wouldn't the condenser be fine, since the clutch doesn't have anything to do with the actual refrigerant itself, and there wouldn't be any debris in the system? I don't have any access to compressed air to flush the condenser, and I'd rather not take it to a mechanic (just dropped $500 on repairs last week). Like you said, the condensers are cheap, and I could do that myself since I wouldn't need to flush it. I'm willing to do whatever I need to get it fixed, I just don't want to do anything that's unnecessary. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what I need to do.

I really appreciate your help!

Actually, if turning the A/C off STOPS the hang, it's not the clutch bearings. It might be the clutch and coil, so you can try that; that won't even take the whole compressor.

You may want to try a clutch kit on it first ... http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/mercury,1990,cougar,3.8l+232cid+v6+supercharged,11 98650,heat+&+air+conditioning,a/c+compressor+clutch,6572

Yes, it's almost as much as the compressor. HOWEVER, you'll not have to break the system, so the charge stays good, it keeps cooling, and all sounds good.

HOWEVER ... if it locked up the belt with it on, it's the COMPRESSOR itself. Especially if it quit being locked up with the A/C off.

RwP

Roboplex
04-02-2017, 12:03 AM
Actually, if turning the A/C off STOPS the hang, it's not the clutch bearings. It might be the clutch and coil, so you can try that; that won't even take the whole compressor.

You may want to try a clutch kit on it first ... http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/mercury,1990,cougar,3.8l+232cid+v6+supercharged,11 98650,heat+&+air+conditioning,a/c+compressor+clutch,6572

Yes, it's almost as much as the compressor. HOWEVER, you'll not have to break the system, so the charge stays good, it keeps cooling, and all sounds good.

HOWEVER ... if it locked up the belt with it on, it's the COMPRESSOR itself. Especially if it quit being locked up with the A/C off.

RwP
It seems to only happen when the AC is on. The car runs perfectly with the AC off, at least today it did. I drove it around for about an hour with the AC off and it was absolutely fine. No smell, no smoke. It doesn't happen every time I put the AC on either. Sometimes it gets ice cold and it's like normal. Sometimes it blows lukewarm air for a few minutes, then locks up. I'll test all of this again tomorrow deliberately, this is just from what I remember from the past few days of driving it.

Thinking back, I think the compressor might have a freon leak, as I just remembered I started hearing a hissing noise from the compressor a few months ago. I doubt it's low on freon since when it works, it blows REALLY cold air. Last time I had it recharged, the mechanic put in freon with stop leak. Could that have gummed up the compressor? I'm just throwing everything I can remember out there, hopefully you can make something out of it :).

Have a good night
Joseph B.

RalphP
04-02-2017, 01:25 AM
Last time I had it recharged, the mechanic put in freon with stop leak. Could that have gummed up the compressor? I'm just throwing everything I can remember out there, hopefully you can make something out of it :).

Have a good night
Joseph B.

The compressor and/or the orifice tube. Don't know that's what it IS, but I'd do the orifice tube ALSO while replacing the compressor.

Do be aware you won't have much time if you don't want to replace the accumulator also. Plus, you'll need the PAG oil for the compressor (PAG 46 is recommended; Ester oil can also be used)

If doing it yourself, you'll need to rent the gauges, the vacuum pump, and don't forget the R134a. May even need the conversion kit. Just so you're braced for it.

RwP

MadMikeyL
04-02-2017, 12:28 PM
If it is smoking, the problem is not just the clutch. A failed clutch will either not engage, or stay engaged. Smoking means the clutch is engaging, but the compressor can't turn, so you will have to replace the complete assembly. No need to replace the condenser or evaporator, but do flush them out with some brake-clean and compressed air, and do replace the accumulator and orifice tube.

Roboplex
04-02-2017, 01:30 PM
If it is smoking, the problem is not just the clutch. A failed clutch will either not engage, or stay engaged. Smoking means the clutch is engaging, but the compressor can't turn, so you will have to replace the complete assembly. No need to replace the condenser or evaporator, but do flush them out with some brake-clean and compressed air, and do replace the accumulator and orifice tube.
Do you know of any ways to do it without compressed air? Maybe by pulling a vacuum? I can get a vacuum pump, I just dont have an air compressor at my disposal.

RalphP
04-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Do you know of any ways to do it without compressed air? Maybe by pulling a vacuum? I can get a vacuum pump, I just dont have an air compressor at my disposal.

Well, on an episode of Wheeler Dealers, Edd Chyna showed flushing an intercooler by using cork plugs; pouring acetone into it; sloshing back and forth; and then pouring it out.

I don't know if that would do the job or not, though.

Maybe you might have a friend with a storage tank and a compressor? Charge the tank up and use it?

Shucks, you can buy decent compressors at Hazard Fraught ... err, Harbor Freight for under $60 nowadays if you locate a coupon. Currently, as I type this, their home page has one for $50.

Edit: Link, without coupon code: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-gal-13-HP-100-PSI-Oilless-Pancake-Air-Compressor-61615.html

RwP

MadMikeyL
04-02-2017, 02:22 PM
You can get a can of compressed air, or they might sell something at the auto parts store meant to flush it. You want something with a bit of pressure behind it though to get the little particles out of there.

TbirdSCFan
04-02-2017, 06:56 PM
What all Ralph said.. ;) But I will add a few foot+cliff notes.

The orifice tube is part of the liquid line. You'd be better served by replacing the entire line; HOWEVER... you CAN run some brake cleaner in the back side.. cap it with your thumbs and slosh it around. Then drain and look at what comes out. If its rather clean and you can blow through it without it restriction, you can reuse it. OTOH, the particles that make it through the fine mesh are still in your system. It needs a good flush.
Be aware that your new accumulator/drier will also filter out a small amout of contaminants.

Same situation with the condenser. IF you can clean it and there isn't a large amount of crud from it, you can reuse it. Its a judgement call.
You will need a new compressor. No way around that. When they sieze up, they're done for.

You can search on the forums for A/C r134a retrofit and "black death" and read up since its a very lengthy topic and discussion.

Roboplex
04-02-2017, 08:06 PM
What all Ralph said.. ;) But I will add a few foot+cliff notes.

The orifice tube is part of the liquid line. You'd be better served by replacing the entire line; HOWEVER... you CAN run some brake cleaner in the back side.. cap it with your thumbs and slosh it around. Then drain and look at what comes out. If its rather clean and you can blow through it without it restriction, you can reuse it. OTOH, the particles that make it through the fine mesh are still in your system. It needs a good flush.
Be aware that your new accumulator/drier will also filter out a small amout of contaminants.

Same situation with the condenser. IF you can clean it and there isn't a large amount of crud from it, you can reuse it. Its a judgement call.
You will need a new compressor. No way around that. When they sieze up, they're done for.

You can search on the forums for A/C r134a retrofit and "black death" and read up since its a very lengthy topic and discussion.
I'll replace the Accumulator, Condenser, and Orifice tube along with the compressor. Like I said there's a leak in the system anyway and have a good chance of fixing the leak. I'd rather replace everything and know it's good than save $100 and risk having to do it again. Florida summers are unbearable without AC, so I'm doing this right. Plus it's still gonna be cheaper than going to the mechanic for just the compressor and flush.

Thanks!

Roboplex
04-02-2017, 11:35 PM
What all Ralph said.. ;) But I will add a few foot+cliff notes.

The orifice tube is part of the liquid line. You'd be better served by replacing the entire line; HOWEVER... you CAN run some brake cleaner in the back side.. cap it with your thumbs and slosh it around. Then drain and look at what comes out. If its rather clean and you can blow through it without it restriction, you can reuse it. OTOH, the particles that make it through the fine mesh are still in your system. It needs a good flush.
Be aware that your new accumulator/drier will also filter out a small amout of contaminants.

Same situation with the condenser. IF you can clean it and there isn't a large amount of crud from it, you can reuse it. Its a judgement call.
You will need a new compressor. No way around that. When they sieze up, they're done for.

You can search on the forums for A/C r134a retrofit and "black death" and read up since its a very lengthy topic and discussion.
So I just went through the previous owner's records. There have been 2 incidents where the compressor needed to be replaced. One in 2000, one before. On the older one the writing is hard to read, I can't tell if they replaced the whole Compressor, but I see the words Clutch/Pulley so they might've only done those. The first ticket also says they replaced the accumulator & liquid line, flushed condenser/evaporator, and converted to R134a. It also says that the condenser/evaporator may go bad due to increased pressure and the fact that they're original (pressure: 110/120). The 2nd (2000) ticket says they replaced compressor and clutch, replaced the retrofit kit, the liquid line, the accumulator, and the orifice tube. I guess it's good I'm replacing the condenser, it's had a hard life xD.

I just thought I'd post this here, let me know if this changes anything. Thanks!

Roboplex
04-03-2017, 06:20 PM
So I just went through the previous owner's records. There have been 2 incidents where the compressor needed to be replaced. One in 2000, one before. On the older one the writing is hard to read, I can't tell if they replaced the whole Compressor, but I see the words Clutch/Pulley so they might've only done those. The first ticket also says they replaced the accumulator & liquid line, flushed condenser/evaporator, and converted to R134a. It also says that the condenser/evaporator may go bad due to increased pressure and the fact that they're original (pressure: 110/120). The 2nd (2000) ticket says they replaced compressor and clutch, replaced the retrofit kit, the liquid line, the accumulator, and the orifice tube. I guess it's good I'm replacing the condenser, it's had a hard life xD.

I just thought I'd post this here, let me know if this changes anything. Thanks!
I'm thinking of replacing the evaporator while I'm at it just since it's so damn cheap ($40). It is original from 1990, and it's been through 3 compressors already (not counting this new one). That would eliminate all the weak spots in the whole system.

TbirdSCFan
04-03-2017, 07:17 PM
I'm thinking of replacing the evaporator while I'm at it just since it's so damn cheap ($40). It is original from 1990, and it's been through 3 compressors already (not counting this new one). That would eliminate all the weak spots in the whole system.
As a heads up, its a pretty involved job; you have to remove the dash to get to the evaporator case. You have to split the case and then reglue it.
So thats also the time to replace the heater core. If you're like me, I'd refurbish the dash frame. Sand/prime to eliminate some of that interior rusty smell; rewrap the wiring harness; run any accessory wiring, fix rattles, re-epoxy broken trim clips, etc.

Roboplex
04-03-2017, 07:25 PM
As a heads up, its a pretty involved job; you have to remove the dash to get to the evaporator case. You have to split the case and then reglue it.
So thats also the time to replace the heater core. If you're like me, I'd refurbish the dash frame. Sand/prime to eliminate some of that interior rusty smell; rewrap the wiring harness; run any accessory wiring, fix rattles, re-epoxy broken trim clips, etc.
I'm gonna attempt it, I got my hands on a service manual, but if I get into it and it's too much for me I'll just flush it and hope it holds.

Roboplex
04-03-2017, 08:20 PM
As a heads up, its a pretty involved job; you have to remove the dash to get to the evaporator case. You have to split the case and then reglue it.
So thats also the time to replace the heater core. If you're like me, I'd refurbish the dash frame. Sand/prime to eliminate some of that interior rusty smell; rewrap the wiring harness; run any accessory wiring, fix rattles, re-epoxy broken trim clips, etc.
In your opinion, how long do you think it would take? I've done a blower motor before, and I just recently had to put in a new Climate Control unit in my mom's car which had me taking the trim off the dash, but I've never done anything to this caliber. I don't want to be in TOO over my head.

I talked to my grandfather about it today, he's the one who suggested I do the evaporator, and he seemed to think I could do it, but that might just be him.

Sorry if I keep posting or if I seem stupid or anything, I just don't want to make a wrong move here. Again, thanks for your patience!

KMT
04-03-2017, 08:59 PM
This thread is for '95 SC, I think, and if you can get thru the lack of formatting, you'll get the idea, I think...

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?22467-What-to-know-about-replacing-heater-core-(help-nee&highlight=heater+core+replacement

seats, steering column, wiring, dash....big job any way you look at it, but as noted, do the heater core if you take the plunge.

As for replacing the condenser, you might want to consider the narrow, more modern style that frees up space in front of the intercooler. Search here.

MadMikeyL
04-03-2017, 09:03 PM
Book time is 8 hours. If you've never pulled a dash before, figure at least double that. As someone who has had these cars apart that far many times before, it would probably take me about 5-6 hours.

Roboplex
04-03-2017, 09:47 PM
This thread is for '95 SC, I think, and if you can get thru the lack of formatting, you'll get the idea, I think...

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?22467-What-to-know-about-replacing-heater-core-(help-nee&highlight=heater+core+replacement

seats, steering column, wiring, dash....big job any way you look at it, but as noted, do the heater core if you take the plunge.

As for replacing the condenser, you might want to consider the narrow, more modern style that frees up space in front of the intercooler. Search here.
I think I'm gonna try xD. From my understanding it's not necessarily a hard (tricky) job to do, it just takes a lot of time. I've got plenty of time on my hands, and you guys to back me up if I make a wrong move. I'll price out heater cores, and see if it's something I can do.

About the condenser, (I know this sounds really dumb) but how on earth do you get it out? My shop manual doesn't really provide much detail, it just says unbolt it and it comes out. It's in front of the radiator, so is there a way to get it out without removing the rad? I'm fine with removing the radiator to get to it, I'd just like to avoid the hassle of draining/refilling the coolant if at all possible.

Thanks!

KMT
04-03-2017, 10:49 PM
It's in front of the radiator, so is there a way to get it out without removing the rad? I'm fine with removing the radiator to get to it, I'd just like to avoid the hassle of draining/refilling the coolant if at all possible.


I removed my radiator when I did mine. Intercooler stayed. Might be a chance you could remove the brackets and tilt it back enough at the top.

But if you have all that out, it makes working on the A/C, lines, syphon tube, etc. that much easier. The hardest part is bleeding air out of the cooling system, tho ;)

Ken

Roboplex
04-03-2017, 10:53 PM
I removed my radiator when I did mine. Intercooler stayed. Might be a chance you could remove the brackets and tilt it back enough at the top.

But if you have all that out, it makes working on the A/C, lines, syphon tube, etc. that much easier. The hardest part is bleeding air out of the cooling system, tho ;)

Ken
I'll see if I can manage by just tilting it, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would make it easier.

Thanks!

Roboplex
04-06-2017, 10:43 AM
I think I'm gonna try xD. From my understanding it's not necessarily a hard (tricky) job to do, it just takes a lot of time. I've got plenty of time on my hands, and you guys to back me up if I make a wrong move. I'll price out heater cores, and see if it's something I can do.

About the condenser, (I know this sounds really dumb) but how on earth do you get it out? My shop manual doesn't really provide much detail, it just says unbolt it and it comes out. It's in front of the radiator, so is there a way to get it out without removing the rad? I'm fine with removing the radiator to get to it, I'd just like to avoid the hassle of draining/refilling the coolant if at all possible.

Thanks!
So I decided against changing the evaporator core. I talked to my mechanic who did my vacuum brakes conversion, and he STRONGLY recommended I not do it myself as I don't have too much experience. He said that usually the condenser is the one to get most of the beating from the condenser "grenading". He told me that usually the only reason I would want to replace it was if it started leaking. Told me to flush it, make sure it holds vacuum, and just replace the other stuff.

So I bought all the parts, rented the tools, and I'm gonna get everything done this weekend. Just wanted to let you guys know what's up.

Thanks! I'll let you know if I run into any trouble :)

RalphP
04-06-2017, 11:05 AM
Yah, evaporators aren't usually plate and fin in our vintage vehicles; the condensors, more likely.

Hopefully it's not worth learning Klingon and Romulan so you can curse it properly :D

RwP

Roboplex
04-06-2017, 11:29 AM
Yah, evaporators aren't usually plate and fin in our vintage vehicles; the condensors, more likely.

Hopefully it's not worth learning Klingon and Romulan so you can curse it properly :D

RwP
LOL! So this is concerning. I just hooked up my manifold gauges, and the low side pressure was 75!! I'm under the understanding its not supposed to get over 50. Meanwhile, the high side pressure was only about 70! I thought that was supposed to be like 150! Is this normal for a failed condenser? Maybe the previous mechanic overcharged it and it made the compressor fail?

TbirdSCFan
04-06-2017, 12:06 PM
LOL! So this is concerning. I just hooked up my manifold gauges, and the low side pressure was 75!! I'm under the understanding its not supposed to get over 50. Meanwhile, the high side pressure was only about 70! I thought that was supposed to be like 150! Is this normal for a failed condenser? Maybe the previous mechanic overcharged it and it made the compressor fail? Are you talking about the old failed compressor? That number is in the range of normal standing pressure for r134a, which is what I believe you have based on the maintenance history.
It would mean that you have a system full of r134a which also means you don't have any leaks (odd, but I suppose it could happen). Leaks are the normal cause of compressor failure. The only other thing I can think of that could kill a compressor is an incompatible oil was used. r134a requires PAG or ester oil.

Roboplex
04-06-2017, 12:13 PM
Are you talking about the old failed compressor? That number is in the range of normal standing pressure for r134a, which is what I believe you have based on the maintenance history.
It would mean that you have a system full of r134a which also means you don't have any leaks (odd, but I suppose it could happen). Leaks are the normal cause of compressor failure. The only other thing I can think of that could kill a compressor is an incompatible oil was used. r134a requires PAG or ester oil.
This was with the car cold, not sure if that matters. But the old compressor is a remanufactured Four Seasons unit (I know those are pretty notorious for failing). It did have a sizable leak previously (I think freon with stop leak fixed it), when I bought the car it wasn't charged at all. We didn't take it to a very good mechanic when I first bought it, and maybe he forgot to add more PAG oil (if it needed it) when he recharged it?

MadMikeyL
04-06-2017, 12:33 PM
When the compressor isn't running, the pressure will equalize between the high and low sides, which means the low side goes up and the high side goes down, so those pressures aren't out of line, given that your compressor has failed. As was said though, it means you will have to have the system evacuated prior to pulling it apart.

KMT
04-06-2017, 02:38 PM
Is this normal for a failed condenser?

I think a condenser only 'fails' when it leaks (being plugged/contaminated makes it a victim, not a suspect). I think it's low on the list of culprits. As for only replacing when damaged/leaking, new designs, aka 'parallel flow' offer better performance, in some cases working to offset any 134a deficiencies when converting an older system.

As noted, if you still have near spec pressure in the system, you don't have an actionable leak. If there was zero/low pressure, the system wouldn't engage the clutch. If the compressor self-destructed in a typical manner, you'd get nothing like what you previously described. It might be ok, and just responding to a chronic on/off system blockage. It may have suffered from conditions out of it's control, and just be a symptom/victim.

Might be all down to the clutch. Might be a wasted syphon tube....might be legacy and a mix of mishaps.

I'd be more curious what you find when you have things disassembled ...until then, it's only speculation ;)

Good luck and keep us posted.

Ken

TbirdSCFan
04-06-2017, 03:53 PM
This was with the car cold, not sure if that matters. But the old compressor is a remanufactured Four Seasons unit (I know those are pretty notorious for failing). It did have a sizable leak previously (I think freon with stop leak fixed it), when I bought the car it wasn't charged at all. We didn't take it to a very good mechanic when I first bought it, and maybe he forgot to add more PAG oil (if it needed it) when he recharged it? With a bad compressor, you'd see the same pressure on both sides. The difference of 5 psi from low+high isn't significant since the guages are designed for 2 different ranges. That its holding that high of pressure is good news in a sense; means your evaporator is good.

Its difficult to determine the cause based on what you know, but if it was empty before, and the mechanic didn't add PAG, that would explain a lot.

The replacement work is rather straightforward if you pay attention to the details. The recharging is more involved, but again if you pay attention to the details, you'll be fine.

Roboplex
04-06-2017, 04:51 PM
With a bad compressor, you'd see the same pressure on both sides. The difference of 5 psi from low+high isn't significant since the guages are designed for 2 different ranges. That its holding that high of pressure is good news in a sense; means your evaporator is good.

Its difficult to determine the cause based on what you know, but if it was empty before, and the mechanic didn't add PAG, that would explain a lot.

The replacement work is rather straightforward if you pay attention to the details. The recharging is more involved, but again if you pay attention to the details, you'll be fine.
Yep I got it evacuated and it's holding vacuum. Needle stuck at like 30inHg for about an hour. Getting all the parts in on saturday (compressor as early as tomorrow), so I'll let you know if I have any other questions on the install. I found a pre-pressurized flush kit at Autozone so I'm not gonna have to buy an air compressor for the evaporator. Otherwise I loaned out the vacuum pump, manifold gauges, and torque wrench. I've got a good socket set and breaker bar. I bought 3 12oz cans of R134a (40oz x 80% = 32oz) If the compressor isn't pre-oiled I'll run out and get some PAG oil. Just making sure I've got everything I need.

The only other thing I was curious about was the AC line removal tools. I've got a set of the cheap plastic donut ones like the picture , but I'm not sure if those will be sufficient. The one in my shop manual looks different,
but I don't want to buy another set if I don't have to.66914

TbirdSCFan
04-06-2017, 05:17 PM
Looks like you've done your homework.

Those should work OK. The compressor will have about 2 oz of oil out of the box, so usually you'll need to add about 6oz more spread around the various components. It doesn't have to be precise, just don't dump it all in the compressor itself. Your new parts should come with new Orings, just be sure to lube them before installing.

Roboplex
04-06-2017, 05:29 PM
Looks like you've done your homework.

Those should work OK. The compressor will have about 2 oz of oil out of the box, so usually you'll need to add about 6oz more spread around the various components. It doesn't have to be precise, just don't dump it all in the compressor itself. Your new parts should come with new Orings, just be sure to lube them before installing.
Ok thanks! I'll make sure to spread the oil between the compressor, condenser, and evaporator, and lube the O-rings.

Again, thanks for your help! Don't think I'd be able to do this without this forum.

Roboplex
04-07-2017, 10:56 PM
Looks like you've done your homework.

Those should work OK. The compressor will have about 2 oz of oil out of the box, so usually you'll need to add about 6oz more spread around the various components. It doesn't have to be precise, just don't dump it all in the compressor itself. Your new parts should come with new Orings, just be sure to lube them before installing.
Got the compressor. It says it's pre-oiled with 7oz of PAG 46. Do I still need to add oil to the new condenser?

KMT
04-07-2017, 11:30 PM
Got the compressor. It says it's pre-oiled with 7oz of PAG 46. Do I still need to add oil to the new condenser?

I added 1 oz. oil to the new condenser when I installed it, along with a new, pre-oiled compressor.

Falcon20x
04-08-2017, 05:35 PM
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?133785-A-C-rebuild-tips&highlight=Falcon20x+a%2Fc+rebuild

Roboplex
04-08-2017, 07:28 PM
Does anyone have any tips on getting the condenser out without removing the radiator? I was able to get the top 2 bolts, but can't for the life of me find the bottom two. Anywhere I should be looking? Thanks!

KMT
04-08-2017, 07:57 PM
I don't think there are more than just the two top bolts/clamps on the condenser.

On my Anny, it sat inside rubber mounts/pockets on the bottom - one on each corner.

Yours has been in there for years - might be stuck...needs encouragement to come loose? Can you come in from the front...under the nose - try to reach up thru the cutouts in the gfx, and pry it upwards, on the lower edge? Be aware there should be some light duty foam on each side to help seal it. Try to salvage those if you can, or be ready to find new.

I can add photos if you like.

Roboplex
04-08-2017, 08:17 PM
I don't think there are more than just the two top bolts/clamps on the condenser.

On my Anny, it sat inside rubber mounts/pockets on the bottom - one on each corner.

Yours has been in there for years - might be stuck...needs encouragement to come loose? Can you come in from the front...under the nose - try to reach up thru the cutouts in the gfx, and pry it upwards, on the lower edge? Be aware there should be some light duty foam on each side to help seal it. Try to salvage those if you can, or be ready to find new.

I can add photos if you like.
Photos would be nice :)

I'll see if I can get it out. I saw 4 bolts on the diagram in my manual, so just knowing there's probably only 2 narrows things down. Right now my immediate concern is getting the Evaporator/Accumulator lines off. I bought the remover tools that clamp all the way around the connector as my little donut ones weren't doing the job. Still not budging. I've been working on it for hours. Tons of coats of penetrating oil, still nothing. I think the connector might be loose, as I can see the lip of the line past the connector, but I can't get the line apart.

KMT
04-08-2017, 08:59 PM
Photos would be nice :)
can see the lip of the line past the connector, but I can't get the line apart.

Cut both pipes on the side that leads to the accumulator...it's going to be discarded, then remove the accum. so you have room to work. Try twisting the short section of pipe that is left in place.

Note from these photos (2 same only different SCs) where the condenser sits, and try to spot the rubber pockets on the lower outside corners.
66936
66937

Roboplex
04-08-2017, 11:15 PM
Cut both pipes on the side that leads to the accumulator...it's going to be discarded, then remove the accum. so you have room to work. Try twisting the short section of pipe that is left in place.

Note from these photos where the condenser sits, and try to spot the rubber pockets on the lower outside corners.
66936
66937
Ok I got the Evaporator lines off without cutting the accumulator pipes. My issue was I didn't have the other side of the accumulator disconnected before I tried getting the evap pipes off, so the rigid steel line to the compressor was holding it in place, even though the spring lock was open. It took time, and a lot of tugging and wiggling on the accumulator, but I don't have a saw sharp enough to cut steel xD. I'm gonna tackle the condenser tomorrow. Thanks a bunch for the pics!

KMT
04-09-2017, 12:14 AM
To be sure you understand from the photo, I put a red circle around the lower left rubber mount/pocket.
66938

TbirdSCFan
04-09-2017, 01:13 AM
Photos would be nice :)

I'll see if I can get it out. I saw 4 bolts on the diagram in my manual, so just knowing there's probably only 2 narrows things down. Right now my immediate concern is getting the Evaporator/Accumulator lines off. I bought the remover tools that clamp all the way around the connector as my little donut ones weren't doing the job. Still not budging. I've been working on it for hours. Tons of coats of penetrating oil, still nothing. I think the connector might be loose, as I can see the lip of the line past the connector, but I can't get the line apart.

Just the 2 bolts at the top are all that hold the condenser on. I haven't tried removal without removing the radiator first.

As for your evaporator hookup, you may have to twist the lines and also be sure the tool is pressed as far into the spring locks as possible. As I recall, I ended up wrapping a rope around the tube on mine and tug-pounded it off. :D

However, I see you've removed it, so nevermind.

Roboplex
04-09-2017, 07:53 PM
Just the 2 bolts at the top are all that hold the condenser on. I haven't tried removal without removing the radiator first.

As for your evaporator hookup, you may have to twist the lines and also be sure the tool is pressed as far into the spring locks as possible. As I recall, I ended up wrapping a rope around the tube on mine and tug-pounded it off. :D

However, I see you've removed it, so nevermind.
Got the condenser in, now I think Rockauto shipped me the wrong compressor. I was trying to get it in, and the screws wouldn't line up, and the power connector is on the side, not the top. Also, when trying to connect the AC lines to the compressor, the lines wouldn't match up (the large port was on the wrong side), and the connectors were towards the bottom of the compressor (prompting all the oil to leak out). The compressor part number is GPD 651449, while the box says 651440. My order says 651440. Needless to say I am PISSED. My radiator's out, the car's torn apart, and now I figure out I have the wrong damn part. Won't be buying from them if at all possible in the future. Besides this, a bunch of fins on the edges of the condenser are bent to hell. Gosh am I mad.

KMT
04-09-2017, 08:16 PM
I just looked and yes, it seems they sent you the wrong unit :(

Feel your pain...

Well, you'll have time to comb out the bent fins while you wait - there's a tool for that. A thin bamboo skewer works well sometimes, just don't get rough w/them.

Roboplex
04-12-2017, 11:03 PM
I was JUST about to forgive Rockauto. They shipped me the new compressor quickly, and I got to work. I finished basically everything on the AC system, reinstalled radiator, flushed evap, the works. Then I got to the accumulator. The inlet from the compressor is too small for the fitting. I'll post a picture. I should've known. The funny thing, is that the picture on their website shows the wrong part, but it's still under 1990 Ford Thunderbird SC. I know the line hasn't been replaced in the past, so the fitting is the same size as all 90' SCs. I dunno if they're gonna take this one back so easily, since it does show the part I was shipped in the picture on Rockauto. But how was I supposed to know if it was the wrong part, before I even started the job to see what the old one looked like? Like I said, the website listed it under 1990 FORD THUNDERBIRD SUPER COUPE! Was hoping to have the car all done and nice and shiny for Easter Mass, but I guess that's probably not gonna happen. Ugh this just makes me so mad.

So all in all, I spent $250 on 4 parts from Rockauto. Two of them are incorrect, and a third was damaged in shipping (that I paid $30 extra for).

The old accumulator:
66967

The new accumulator
66966

Roboplex
04-13-2017, 10:53 AM
I was JUST about to forgive Rockauto. They shipped me the new compressor quickly, and I got to work. I finished basically everything on the AC system, reinstalled radiator, flushed evap, the works. Then I got to the accumulator. The inlet from the compressor is too small for the fitting. I'll post a picture. I should've known. The funny thing, is that the picture on their website shows the wrong part, but it's still under 1990 Ford Thunderbird SC. I know the line hasn't been replaced in the past, so the fitting is the same size as all 90' SCs. I dunno if they're gonna take this one back so easily, since it does show the part I was shipped in the picture on Rockauto. But how was I supposed to know if it was the wrong part, before I even started the job to see what the old one looked like? Like I said, the website listed it under 1990 FORD THUNDERBIRD SUPER COUPE! Was hoping to have the car all done and nice and shiny for Easter Mass, but I guess that's probably not gonna happen. Ugh this just makes me so mad.

So all in all, I spent $250 on 4 parts from Rockauto. Two of them are incorrect, and a third was damaged in shipping (that I paid $30 extra for).

Okay I called Rockauto, explained the situation. The guy seemed really puzzled as to why that happened. He agreed it was a fault on their part, issued me a full refund, and told me to throw out the bad part.

I'll post again when I get the new one in :).

TbirdSCFan
04-13-2017, 04:19 PM
The new accumulator
66966 Yikes.. Yup.. we don't have any barb connectors. :rolleyes:

Creighton
04-13-2017, 08:26 PM
Have been following your ordeal. Hope it gets sorted soon.
Are wrong shipped parts a common problem with RockAuto? Need to order a bunch of stuff and they are on the short list. Thanks!
Creighton

KMT
04-13-2017, 08:43 PM
Are wrong shipped parts a common problem with RockAuto?

I've had good luck w/RA. They've always responded quickly for any questions, never rcvd. wrong items, etc. Had to return a bad (?) wheel bearing once and that went as quick as could be expected. I only order items from any vendor when the impact from wrong parts, delayed shipping, returns, etc. won't impact my repair plans. Otherwise, I deal local, OTC.

If you use RA, be sure to check here for discount codes. I keep an eye out for SC related items being clearanced/discounted via their RSS feed.

Ken

Roboplex
04-14-2017, 08:47 AM
I've had good luck w/RA. They've always responded quickly for any questions, never rcvd. wrong items, etc. Had to return a bad (?) wheel bearing once and that went as quick as could be expected. I only order items from any vendor when the impact from wrong parts, delayed shipping, returns, etc. won't impact my repair plans. Otherwise, I deal local, OTC.

If you use RA, be sure to check here for discount codes. I keep an eye out for SC related items being clearanced/discounted via their RSS feed.

Ken
Yep I used the SCCOA code, and the Accumulator was one of their wholesale closeouts. Maybe that's why it was incorrect, I dunno. I just wish they offered to expedite shipping on the replacement, so I won't have to wait until next Wednesday to get it delivered. Stuff like this just happens I guess.

Roboplex
04-18-2017, 06:06 PM
I've had good luck w/RA. They've always responded quickly for any questions, never rcvd. wrong items, etc. Had to return a bad (?) wheel bearing once and that went as quick as could be expected. I only order items from any vendor when the impact from wrong parts, delayed shipping, returns, etc. won't impact my repair plans. Otherwise, I deal local, OTC.

If you use RA, be sure to check here for discount codes. I keep an eye out for SC related items being clearanced/discounted via their RSS feed.

Ken
Got the new Evaporator in, and i've got the system on a vacuum. I've had the pump running for about 4 hours, and was planning on going overnight, as I heard the longer you have it on the pump, the better. My only concern is that I'm worried the new PAG 45 in the compressor is going to be sucked out by the vacuum pump. I read up on it a little bit, but haven't got a clear answer on how long I should run it for. The system's been basically open to air this whole time (not my brightest moment, i admit), and I live in humid Florida, so I'm sure a fair bit of moisture got in.

But either way, I got everything put back together, and I'm planning on recharging the system tomorrow.

MadMikeyL
04-18-2017, 06:46 PM
There is no need to keep the vacuum pump running longer than 15-20 minutes, but leaving the vacuum on the vehicle is where the longer the better comes into play, so I would leave that overnight if you can. In addition to helping pull the moisture out, this will also tell you if you have any leaks in the system before you put any refrigerant in.

KMT
04-18-2017, 06:55 PM
how long I should run it for.

I pull it down as far as it continues to drop, then hold for max. 30 minutes, then shut down the pump and watch it/wait to see if it creeps back up for as long as I have patience ;)

As for the oil, how wet was the exhaust on the pump?

TbirdSCFan
04-19-2017, 04:35 AM
Got the new Evaporator in, and i've got the system on a vacuum. I've had the pump running for about 4 hours, and was planning on going overnight, as I heard the longer you have it on the pump, the better. My only concern is that I'm worried the new PAG 45 in the compressor is going to be sucked out by the vacuum pump. I read up on it a little bit, but haven't got a clear answer on how long I should run it for. The system's been basically open to air this whole time (not my brightest moment, i admit), and I live in humid Florida, so I'm sure a fair bit of moisture got in.

But either way, I got everything put back together, and I'm planning on recharging the system tomorrow.
Usually in a hotter climate, you leave it on longer, but 1 hour is more than sufficient. The pump won't pull out much if any of the oil, so no sweat. I wouldn't worry a lot about it being open either... a few hours should't hurt it. Its not like air circulates in/out of it while its just sitting there. What you want to see is when you're done, does it hold a vaccuum, w/o the needle moving, for at least 12 hours.

Roboplex
04-19-2017, 06:28 PM
Usually in a hotter climate, you leave it on longer, but 1 hour is more than sufficient. The pump won't pull out much if any of the oil, so no sweat. I wouldn't worry a lot about it being open either... a few hours should't hurt it. Its not like air circulates in/out of it while its just sitting there. What you want to see is when you're done, does it hold a vaccuum, w/o the needle moving, for at least 12 hours.


Tried recharging with freon, aaaand the high pressure hose ruptured. I found one on Amazon for $30, I just need someone quickly to tell me if it's the right part. There's only one left, and I wanna get it before someone else does. Sorry if I seem hasty.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-55683-Hose-Assembly/dp/B000CL9LJ8

Thanks so much!
Joseph B.

TbirdSCFan
04-19-2017, 06:48 PM
Tried recharging with freon, aaaand the high pressure hose ruptured. I found one on Amazon for $30, I just need someone quickly to tell me if it's the right part. There's only one left, and I wanna get it before someone else does. Sorry if I seem hasty.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-55683-Hose-Assembly/dp/B000CL9LJ8

Thanks so much!
Joseph B. Ruputured? :eek: Thats amazing. The overpressure valve (the stump in the picture on the manifold that bolts to the compressor) should have let go before that. Was it the hose itself or where the hose fits into the condensor? Was it locked in place after installation?
Was the fan running?

Anyways, that looks like the correct part.

Roboplex
04-19-2017, 07:02 PM
Ruputured? :eek: Thats amazing. The overpressure valve (the stump in the picture on the manifold that bolts to the compressor) should have let go before that. Was it the hose itself or where the hose fits into the condensor? Was it locked in place after installation?
Was the fan running?

Anyways, that looks like the correct part.
It was definitely near the high side access port. There's freon/oil all over my coolant overflow tank. It definitely shot downward. I'm pretty sure it was locked in place, although I did hear 2 audible *pops*, so it could've been the spring locks. I'm just in the beginning stages of troubleshooting, but just feeling under the high pressure line there's an area that definitely feels like a crack.

Edit: No the fan was not on btw

Roboplex
04-19-2017, 07:19 PM
It was definitely near the high side access port. There's freon/oil all over my coolant overflow tank. It definitely shot downward. I'm pretty sure it was locked in place, although I did hear 2 audible *pops*, so it could've been the spring locks. I'm just in the beginning stages of troubleshooting, but just feeling under the high pressure line there's an area that definitely feels like a crack.
Yep I'm like 90% sure it's the high pressure line. The spring lock connectors were both engaged (the spring was before the lip of the line), and I can definitely feel a crack on the bottom of the line, right where it was spraying. Not sure why it popped twice though.

Roboplex
04-19-2017, 08:20 PM
Yep I'm like 90% sure it's the high pressure line. The spring lock connectors were both engaged (the spring was before the lip of the line), and I can definitely feel a crack on the bottom of the line, right where it was spraying. Not sure why it popped twice though.
Sorry about the many replies, but I think I figured out what happened. Remember the minor leak I was telling you guys the previous owner had? I suspect that leak was in the high pressure hose (it popped in the rubber flexible part) and the act of vacuuming it down and recharging just overwhelmed it and it ruptured.

Idk, that's my 2 cents, but I'm definitely sure it's the actual hose that blew. I can feel the rubber flaking off, and the only place where it's oily from the freon is right under the hose.

TbirdSCFan
04-19-2017, 09:07 PM
Sorry about the many replies, but I think I figured out what happened. Remember the minor leak I was telling you guys the previous owner had? I suspect that leak was in the high pressure hose (it popped in the rubber flexible part) and the act of vacuuming it down and recharging just overwhelmed it and it ruptured.

Idk, that's my 2 cents, but I'm definitely sure it's the actual hose that blew. I can feel the rubber flaking off, and the only place where it's oily from the freon is right under the hose. Well there you have it. Sounds like the problem. I've never had one of mine go, but with age.. its certainly possible.

I assume the engine wasn't running at the time you were adding refrigerant. Thats OK for most of the first can. When you start the engine and turn on the A/C to pull in the rest of the refrigerant, your radiator fan should be running. Compressor should engage and fan should be running.
As you add refrigerant, the high side guage (red knob is always closed BTW) will rise until the compressor cycles and it will drop down and rise again. Low side pressure does the opposite.. it drops until it cycles and then pops up and drops slowly again. That pressure is somewhere in the 20s. It usually won't cycle until the 2nd can is almost done.

On that subject, I tweak my pressure switch to cycle at 20 or less.. reason being that for the coldest air, you want the evaporator to be as cold as possible w/o freezeup. For R12, that cycle pressure ends up being almost 30psi. For r134a, its around 20psi. The factory switch is adjusted for r12 ;) That switch is the thing mounted on top of the accumulator. If you remove the connector and peek down inside, there's a slotted screw that is used to adjust. Its recommended that you turn it just 1/8 turn at a time CCW. If you adjust it too far, all that will happen is your A/C will start off cold but then push out warm air indicating freezeup. If you turn it off, after a few minutes, it will push cold air again.

KMT
04-19-2017, 09:30 PM
... and the act of vacuuming it down and recharging just overwhelmed it and it ruptured.

Sounds logical, yes, that and it's age in general. Hopefully that's the only leak source now ;)

Roboplex
04-19-2017, 09:51 PM
Well there you have it. Sounds like the problem. I've never had one of mine go, but with age.. its certainly possible.

I assume the engine wasn't running at the time you were adding refrigerant. Thats OK for most of the first can. When you start the engine and turn on the A/C to pull in the rest of the refrigerant, your radiator fan should be running. Compressor should engage and fan should be running.
As you add refrigerant, the high side guage (red knob is always closed BTW) will rise until the compressor cycles and it will drop down and rise again. Low side pressure does the opposite.. it drops until it cycles and then pops up and drops slowly again. That pressure is somewhere in the 20s. It usually won't cycle until the 2nd can is almost done.

On that subject, I tweak my pressure switch to cycle at 20 or less.. reason being that for the coldest air, you want the evaporator to be as cold as possible w/o freezeup. For R12, that cycle pressure ends up being almost 30psi. For r134a, its around 20psi. The factory switch is adjusted for r12 ;) That switch is the thing mounted on top of the accumulator. If you remove the connector and peek down inside, there's a slotted screw that is used to adjust. Its recommended that you turn it just 1/8 turn at a time CCW. If you adjust it too far, all that will happen is your A/C will start off cold but then push out warm air indicating freezeup. If you turn it off, after a few minutes, it will push cold air again.
The engine was running as I added refrigerant, I started the car with the AC on, and then opened the valve (only blue) on the manifold gauges. That's what I thought was the correct procedure. I shorted the connector on the pressure switch to get the compressor to cycle after the 1st can, as the low side pressure just kept rising, the refrigerant wasn't being "sucked" out (it took a REALLY long time for the 1st can), and the high side wasn't evening out. After a minute or so of the compressor cycling and on the 2nd can of refrigerant, that's when it blew.

I think I remember unscrewing the screw on the pressure switch when I was taking the thing apart last week. Wasn't thinking straight and just unscrewed everything I saw on the whole thing. Is it possible that I may have over-tightened it when I screwed it back in?

TbirdSCFan
04-20-2017, 03:03 AM
The engine was running as I added refrigerant, I started the car with the AC on, and then opened the valve (only blue) on the manifold gauges. That's what I thought was the correct procedure. I shorted the connector on the pressure switch to get the compressor to cycle after the 1st can, as the low side pressure just kept rising, the refrigerant wasn't being "sucked" out (it took a REALLY long time for the 1st can), and the high side wasn't evening out. After a minute or so of the compressor cycling and on the 2nd can of refrigerant, that's when it blew.

I think I remember unscrewing the screw on the pressure switch when I was taking the thing apart last week. Wasn't thinking straight and just unscrewed everything I saw on the whole thing. Is it possible that I may have over-tightened it when I screwed it back in? So the whole time, the fan wasn't running? Check your connectors,etc. Its important that the fan runs when the car is sitting still and the A/C is on. Its what pulls the air across the condenser and thus pulls the heat out of the compressed refrigerant. If the fan doesnt run, its easy to overpressure the lines and for the relief valve to vent.

Although relief pressure is I think around 400psi, your high side pressures should stay below 250 except on the hottest days. They use a rule of thumb of 2.5x ambient temperature for high side pressure. So if its 80 out, 200 is about expected. My rule of thumb is "high as needed but less than 300".. :D

Roboplex
04-20-2017, 12:32 PM
So the whole time, the fan wasn't running? Check your connectors,etc. Its important that the fan runs when the car is sitting still and the A/C is on. Its what pulls the air across the condenser and thus pulls the heat out of the compressed refrigerant. If the fan doesnt run, its easy to overpressure the lines and for the relief valve to vent.

Although relief pressure is I think around 400psi, your high side pressures should stay below 250 except on the hottest days. They use a rule of thumb of 2.5x ambient temperature for high side pressure. So if its 80 out, 200 is about expected. My rule of thumb is "high as needed but less than 300".. :D
The relief valve didn't vent. The area around it is completely dry. I've narrowed it down to the actual hose. I took the open can of freon and tried charging it a little with the engine off, and immediately I heard hissing coming from the hose. The fan might not have been running because I shorted the connector to the low pressure switch? I might just go buy a new switch, as I completely screwed up the calibration because unscrewed the screw when I was taking it apart, and they're only $10 and in stock at Autozone.

RalphP
04-20-2017, 12:38 PM
The hose failure was probably due to a) it not being a barrier hose, and b) it being old. The double pop was probably the outer hose yielding, then the INNER hose yielding. (Or possibly vice versa).

I'd replace all other hoses on the system now. And since it's been open, the accumulator at least will need to be replaced again, since it takes only minutes for the dessicant to fail when open to 50% or greater RH.

RwP

TbirdSCFan
04-20-2017, 05:31 PM
The relief valve didn't vent. The area around it is completely dry. I've narrowed it down to the actual hose. I took the open can of freon and tried charging it a little with the engine off, and immediately I heard hissing coming from the hose. The fan might not have been running because I shorted the connector to the low pressure switch? I might just go buy a new switch, as I completely screwed up the calibration because unscrewed the screw when I was taking it apart, and they're only $10 and in stock at Autozone. Got it. New switch is a good idea. And you definitely need a new high hose.

You shouldn't need to short the connector intially. After you pull a vacuum, there should be enough to pull in about 3/4 of the first can. Then start the car, turn on the A/C control switch to max A/C, cabin fan to 3 or 4, and coldest setting. The compressor should cycle on its own for short periods.. like a few seconds at a time. That should be enough to pull the rest of the first can in. Immersing the can in warm/hot water will help speed that up. Then shut off the blue knob, add next can, vent/hiss the yellow hose at the guage very briefly, and proceed with the next can. As this is going on, the cycle times for the compressor should get longer, the high side pressures should increase, the lower side pressure should decrease slightly. And the fan should be running. Colder air should be coming out of the vents by this time too. You will probably need to change out the water supply to keep it warm. When the 2nd can is finished, things should be rather steady. You'll add about 1/2-3/4 of the 3rd while watching the pressures. Opening the throttle a bit will help. :cool:

Roboplex
04-22-2017, 11:38 AM
Got it. New switch is a good idea. And you definitely need a new high hose.

You shouldn't need to short the connector intially. After you pull a vacuum, there should be enough to pull in about 3/4 of the first can. Then start the car, turn on the A/C control switch to max A/C, cabin fan to 3 or 4, and coldest setting. The compressor should cycle on its own for short periods.. like a few seconds at a time. That should be enough to pull the rest of the first can in. Immersing the can in warm/hot water will help speed that up. Then shut off the blue knob, add next can, vent/hiss the yellow hose at the guage very briefly, and proceed with the next can. As this is going on, the cycle times for the compressor should get longer, the high side pressures should increase, the lower side pressure should decrease slightly. And the fan should be running. Colder air should be coming out of the vents by this time too. You will probably need to change out the water supply to keep it warm. When the 2nd can is finished, things should be rather steady. You'll add about 1/2-3/4 of the 3rd while watching the pressures. Opening the throttle a bit will help. :cool:
Got the new hose in, started adding freon. About 2 cans in, and I had to stop, the high side pressures were approaching 400. The compressor was running, but the cooling fan was not. The cooling fan does run when the Radiator heats up, as it never overheats since I got it replaced. Anything this could be?

MadMikeyL
04-22-2017, 12:17 PM
Most likely the ircm. Could also be the fan itself, or a wiring issue, or possibly the ac control unit, but not likely.

Roboplex
04-22-2017, 12:21 PM
Most likely the ircm. Could also be the fan itself, or a wiring issue, or possibly the ac control unit, but not likely.
I just replaced the IRCM and fan motor like a month ago. I highly doubt that's it. But it could be.

KMT
04-22-2017, 01:05 PM
The compressor was running, but the cooling fan was not.

Does the fan come on when you disconnect the ECT sensor and start the car/engine running. If so, that should indicate the fan & IRCM are both ok.

Did you get cold air out the vents this time at all?

And remind me, sorry if I missed it - did you replace the orifice tube, and did you vacuum it down again after replacing the line?

Roboplex
04-22-2017, 01:31 PM
Does the fan come on when you disconnect the ECT sensor and start the car/engine running. If so, that should indicate the fan & IRCM are both ok.

Did you get cold air out the vents this time at all?

And remind me, sorry if I missed it - did you replace the orifice tube, and did you vacuum it down again after replacing the line?
Disconnected the ECT sensor, fan didn't come on.

I did get cold air out of the vents.

I replaced the entire low pressure (with orifice tube) and high pressure lines, and held it on a vacuum overnight.

I guess this means it's the IRCM since the fan does kick in when it gets to temperature. Thankfully it's under warranty, so I should be able to get a new one for free.

KMT
04-22-2017, 01:49 PM
Disconnected the ECT sensor, fan didn't come on.

Well, yes, if you did that w/engine running, and you know the fan and connection to it are healthy, IRCM would be my guess. I've seen one time when an IRCM failed to support A/C fan turn-on, so it can happen.

Maybe you'll get it sorted before Easter 2018 ;)

Ken

TbirdSCFan
04-22-2017, 02:25 PM
Got the new hose in, started adding freon. About 2 cans in, and I had to stop, the high side pressures were approaching 400. The compressor was running, but the cooling fan was not. The cooling fan does run when the Radiator heats up, as it never overheats since I got it replaced. Anything this could be? With your A/C, the EEC engages the compressor and fan. And you're not still shorting the connector, right? All connectors should be plugged in as normal. Try KOEO test. One of the first things the EEC does is turn on the fan.

Roboplex
04-22-2017, 03:54 PM
With your A/C, the EEC engages the compressor and fan. And you're not still shorting the connector, right? All connectors should be plugged in as normal. Try KOEO test. One of the first things the EEC does is turn on the fan.
All connectors are plugged in as normal. Is a KOEO test something I can do without any special tools?

If the EEC was bad, and since it controls both the fan and compressor like you said, the compressor wouldn't be engaging either, right? The compressor works perfectly, and engaged as I added freon, the fan just isn't running.

KMT
04-22-2017, 04:46 PM
Is a KOEO test something I can do without any special tools?


Yes, but I don't recall if it also spools the fan. You might need to spend the $35 and pick up a tester...not a bad tool to have, actually. Just remember to get one for the ODB type for your car - the EEC relies on the IRCM to complete the low/high fan circuits, and the EEC may well be a suspect, especially since your ICRM is new...


YouTube for how to DIY self-test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X07hu0kAuzE
...your connector should be on the rear of the pass. side wheelwell hump, back near the firewall.


IRCM relay tests on car:
-------------------------------------------
Breaking the circut on wire #14 turns on low speed fan. Gounding wire #17 turns on power to the high speed fan motor windings. The fan should always be started in low speed (high pulls too many amps) and when the high speed is turned on the low speed should be turned off at the same time.

IRCM/CCRM Pin Outs (Main Fan Relays)
Pins 1/2 (black/yellow and black/orange) - Power to HIGH speed fan windings
Pins 6/7 (2 blue wires) - Power to LOW speed fan windings
Pin 13 (red) - 12V Ignition Hot (splice with 3A fuse if using external relays for fan)
Pin 14 (tan/orange) - Signal from EEC to IRCM for low speed fan
Pin 17 (green) - Signal from EEC to IRCM for high speed fan

Roboplex
04-22-2017, 05:31 PM
Yes, but I don't recall if it also spools the fan. You might need to spend the $35 and pick up a tester...not a bad tool to have, actually. Just remember to get one for the ODB type for your car - the EEC relies on the IRCM to complete the low/high fan circuits, and the EEC may well be a suspect, especially since your ICRM is new...


YouTube for how to DIY self-test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X07hu0kAuzE
...your connector should be on the rear of the pass. side wheelwell hump, back near the firewall.


IRCM relay tests on car:
-------------------------------------------
Breaking the circut on wire #14 turns on low speed fan. Gounding wire #17 turns on power to the high speed fan motor windings. The fan should always be started in low speed (high pulls too many amps) and when the high speed is turned on the low speed should be turned off at the same time.

IRCM/CCRM Pin Outs (Main Fan Relays)
Pins 1/2 (black/yellow and black/orange) - Power to HIGH speed fan windings
Pins 6/7 (2 blue wires) - Power to LOW speed fan windings
Pin 13 (red) - 12V Ignition Hot (splice with 3A fuse if using external relays for fan)
Pin 14 (tan/orange) - Signal from EEC to IRCM for low speed fan
Pin 17 (green) - Signal from EEC to IRCM for high speed fan
I'm gonna take it back to my mechanic on Monday for his advice. Not that I don't value this forum or anything, but I'm just really over this whole job, and need to focus on other things like school xD. Plus I remember him saying something about the high/low speed circuits when he installed the IRCM.

I'll let you know how it goes!

TbirdSCFan
04-22-2017, 10:39 PM
All connectors are plugged in as normal. Is a KOEO test something I can do without any special tools?

If the EEC was bad, and since it controls both the fan and compressor like you said, the compressor wouldn't be engaging either, right? The compressor works perfectly, and engaged as I added freon, the fan just isn't running. To test your fan circuit, all you need is a paperclip. Watch the video that KMT listed. Its OK, but you can stop after you see where he inserts the jumper wire. Thats all you need to know for now. After that, jump in, turn the key on to the run position.. listen for the Fan to run briefly. If it runs.. then the EEC, IRCM, and fan are working. It should throw a code if the fan doesn't work. Count the flashes of the engine light like the guy in the video shows, then look it up.

Note: he states that he hasn't been able to clear codes. Thats done by removing the jumper with the key still turned on. ;)

The fan and compressor are both engaged by the EEC. Its kind of unlikely that the EEC is the culprit, but the IRCM could be.. there is a way to test it by applying 12v to the brown/orange wire, and/or shorting the pink wire to ground. Its up to you if you want to delve into that test. If you have a spare good working IRCM sitting around, you could try that out too.

KMT
04-22-2017, 11:12 PM
To test your fan circuit, all you need is a paperclip. Watch the video that KMT listed. Its OK, but you can stop after you see where he inserts the jumper wire.

I tried to find another one that didn't take so long to get to that part, but got distracted by the fancy test equipment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dwCpcfWqqQ

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 02:39 PM
To test your fan circuit, all you need is a paperclip. Watch the video that KMT listed. Its OK, but you can stop after you see where he inserts the jumper wire. Thats all you need to know for now. After that, jump in, turn the key on to the run position.. listen for the Fan to run briefly. If it runs.. then the EEC, IRCM, and fan are working. It should throw a code if the fan doesn't work. Count the flashes of the engine light like the guy in the video shows, then look it up.

Note: he states that he hasn't been able to clear codes. Thats done by removing the jumper with the key still turned on. ;)

The fan and compressor are both engaged by the EEC. Its kind of unlikely that the EEC is the culprit, but the IRCM could be.. there is a way to test it by applying 12v to the brown/orange wire, and/or shorting the pink wire to ground. Its up to you if you want to delve into that test. If you have a spare good working IRCM sitting around, you could try that out too.
Did the EEC test, fan didn't run, and no codes popped up at all.

Edit: Nevermind! Had the jumper cable connected to the wrong contact. The fan did run, and if I read the code correctly, it showed codes 11 and 15. I'll post a video soon.

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 03:06 PM
Did the EEC test, fan didn't run, and no codes popped up at all.

Edit: Nevermind! Had the jumper cable connected to the wrong contact. The fan did run, and if I read the code correctly, it showed codes 11 and 15. I'll post a video soon.
Here's the video to the error codes. It looks like it displayed codes 11 and 15. The fan DID run!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6CQ7yP-QGo

KMT
04-23-2017, 03:31 PM
See http://www.njtacc.com/tech/eec_codes.html - for a list that includes SC-only codes.

11 means pass and 15 may just be an artifact of the DIY process - or there might be a ground/EEC gremlin? Has the EEC been replaced? Is the center bolt for the connector at the EEC in place/snug? Is the battery charged up and clamps clean/tight? I'd still try to obtain a reader at some point.

Fan runs, means the computer is ok; the IRCM is ok; and the fan circuits are OK.

That said, fan not running when ECT connector pulled means...?

I'd repeat that ECT test, again, with engine running, then unplug the ECT and fan should run.

Did you confirm the high pressure switch part number/application when you bought the new one? Sorry if I missed it, did you jumper it to test that circuit?

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 04:22 PM
See http://www.njtacc.com/tech/eec_codes.html - for a list that includes SC-only codes.

11 means pass and 15 may just be an artifact of the DIY process - or there might be a ground/EEC gremlin? Has the EEC been replaced? Is the center bolt for the connector at the EEC in place/snug? Is the battery charged up and clamps clean/tight? I'd still try to obtain a reader at some point.

Fan runs, means the computer is ok; the IRCM is ok; and the fan circuits are OK.

That said, fan not running when ECT connector pulled means...?

I'd repeat that ECT test, again, with engine running, then unplug the ECT and fan should run.

Did you confirm the high pressure switch part number/application when you bought the new one? Sorry if I missed it, did you jumper it to test that circuit?
There is a ground issue somewhere in the car, as I get some squealing through the speakers, but that's probably not related since it's in the audio system.

I did the ECT test again with the car running, still no fan. I'm starting to suspect maybe the fan motor, or the fan motor connections? The mechanic just crimped them with a butt connector and wrapped it in electrical tape. Maybe they're bad on the low speed or high speed wire? I don't know. My mom recalls him saying something about only hooking it up to the high circuit, so that it would always run on high and never overheat. Maybe that could be the culprit?

The battery is brand new, and my battery tester says it's at full charge.

I did jump the High Pressure switch on my first attempt to charge it before I bought the new sensor, and the compressor ran, but no fan. The new sensor works, only turned the compressor on once some freon was in, but still no fan.

KMT
04-23-2017, 04:30 PM
The deal w/the fan motor is that there are two windings/speed circuits...one for low speed and one for high. High draws so much current on spin up that the circuit is designed so it always/only comes online after the fan has first been spun up using the speed circuit. On high, both circuits are lit.

There are ways to modify the fan circuit so it always runs, but that's not something you've described so far, unless it used to do that and now, for some reason, it doesn't. I can imagine doing that mod the wrong way and having fan motor, and at least IRCM issues, sometime down the road. Speaking of which, why is there a new IRCM in the mix now?


>The mechanic just crimped them with a butt connector and wrapped it in electrical tape

I'd want to know what's going under that tape and specifically why a repair was needed/done in the first place.

What I've been trying to help you troubleshoot so far involves an unmolested fan, harness, connector, etc. No telling where to go next if that means a franken-fan circuit ;)

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 04:40 PM
The deal w/the fan motor is that there are two windings/speed circuits...one for low speed and one for high. High draws so much current on spin up that the circuit is designed so it always/only comes online after the fan has first been spun up using the speed circuit. On high, both circuits are lit.

There are ways to modify the fan circuit so it always runs, but that's not something you've described so far, unless it used to do that and now, for some reason, it doesn't. I can imagine doing that mod the wrong way and having fan motor, and at least IRCM issues, sometime down the road. Speaking of which, why is there a new IRCM in the mix now?


I'd want to know what's going under that tape and specifically why a repair was needed/done in the first place.

What I've been trying to help you troubleshoot so far involves an unmolested fan, harness, connector, etc. No telling where to go next if that means a franken-fan circuit ;)
The IRCM and Fan Motor were replaced due to the car overheating and the fan not running AT ALL. I was having some major health issues and wasn't up for fixing it myself, so I took it to my mechanic, and he told me to buy those 2 parts. That's why I'm gonna call him and have him look at it tomorrow. I need to know exactly what he did.

I have a picture of the crimped connections:

67001

TbirdSCFan
04-23-2017, 04:47 PM
I did the ECT test again with the car running, still no fan. I'm starting to suspect maybe the fan motor, or the fan motor connections? The mechanic just crimped them with a butt connector and wrapped it in electrical tape. Maybe they're bad on the low speed or high speed wire? I don't know. My mom recalls him saying something about only hooking it up to the high circuit, so that it would always run on high and never overheat. Maybe that could be the culprit? The A/C engages the low speed fan circuit. :) His fix is not correct. Just looked at your picture. That is the aftermarket replacement fan.. it is a single speed fan because well... the manufacturer didn't see the need for a high speed winding.. :rolleyes: :( It is what it is. I have this same setup in my red car, but I didn't get goofy or tricky with wiring it in. I just connected it like the diagram showed and viola.. it works as it supposed to. That is to say there's just 1 speed.

Black harness wire to black fan wire. Brown/yellow harness wire to either fan orange wire. Remaining harness wire to the other fan orange wire. :cool:

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 04:56 PM
The A/C engages the low speed fan circuit. :) His fix is not correct.
I'm not sure if he actually wired it up that way (only going on something my mom said she THINKS she remembers hearing), but I'm definitely gonna have him take a look. And anyways, i'm not too good with electrical stuff yet, and I don't wanna mess it up even more.

KMT
04-23-2017, 05:34 PM
I'm not sure if he actually wired it up that way

From the photo, it looks like at least one of the tabs/keepers is broken on the factory fan/harness connector. Easy to do when the plastic gets old, but risky later...it might look like it's snug, but if the male connector isn't fully plunged, you can lose power to the fan thru the connector and not realize it (ask me how I know). The size of the wires demonstrates just how much current is being passed, and a marginal connector puts that at risk.

If one or both tabs are broken, I'd wrap a zip-tie length wise to better mate/clamp the two connector pieces.

I'd recommend new, but it's a molded connector, and having to splice just adds another point for failure to sneak in.

Roboplex
04-23-2017, 05:37 PM
From the photo, it looks like at least one of the tabs/keepers is broken on the factory fan/harness connector. Easy to do when the plastic gets old, but risky later...it might look like it's snug, but if the male connector isn't fully plunged, you can lose power to the fan thru the connector and not realize it (ask me how I know). The size of the wires demonstrates just how much current is being passed, and a marginal connector puts that at risk.

If one or both tabs are broken, I'd wrap a zip-tie length wise to better mate/clamp the two connector pieces.

I'd recommend new, but it's a molded connector, and having to splice just adds another point for failure to sneak in.
Yep it broke off when I was disconnecting it for removing the radiator. It felt really snug so I thought it was ok. I'll ziptie it and see if it helps.

KMT
04-23-2017, 05:46 PM
Might as well pull it apart and make sure nothing looks melted and/or corroded/green. If healthy, dab some connector grease inside then reconnect and tie off.

Roboplex
04-25-2017, 08:42 PM
Might as well pull it apart and make sure nothing looks melted and/or corroded/green. If healthy, dab some connector grease inside then reconnect and tie off.
So so glad I brought it to the mechanic. It WAS the IRCM after all! And, my mechanic actually found a used one for $25! So I'm returning the bad aftermarket one to rockauto that originally cost me $90 for a full refund, and I'm getting a used OEM part for $25! So it's a win win!

Mechanic said it was working perfectly with the new (used) IRCM in, and I'm picking it up tomorrow.

KMT
04-25-2017, 09:47 PM
Did the mech. wrap up all the A/C work too?

Roboplex
04-25-2017, 10:32 PM
Did the mech. wrap up all the A/C work too?
It was all pretty much done, but he did evacuate it and recharge with the proper amount of refrigerant just to be safe.

I'll get more details when I pick it up tomorrow, but he said it's blowing cold and the fan is running.

TbirdSCFan
04-26-2017, 04:18 AM
Glad you got it all worked out. Why does everything have to be such an adventure, right? :rolleyes:

KMT
04-26-2017, 05:35 AM
...it's blowing cold and the fan is running.

Good news that - fingers crossed. Nice work.

potshotscott
04-26-2017, 12:34 PM
These cars remind me of Naval Aviation more and more. Fly an hour work on it for three. Love every minute of it (figuratively speaking).