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MotorCityMike
01-24-2003, 03:02 PM
Seeing as how this is my first post, please allow me to intoduce myself.

I am Mike Lasiuta and I represent a company located in Chesterfield, MI by the name of PF&E. We are currently expanding our facilities to produce headers for your cars of interest, the T-Bird SC as well as many others.

We currently have a pre-production prototype set of header made from mild steel and coated with high-temperature ceramic coating.

I will attach a few pics for you. Sorry about the photo quality, they were taken with no flash under flourescent lighting, which didn't really turn out too well. I will get better pics for you and post them ASAP.

The price for these headers is $379 uncoated, or $479 coated. We can also make custom Y-pipes and cat-back exhaust systems if you're local. We use only the best quality materials and every header is TIG welded for strenght.

I didn't know where else to post this so I hope its in the right place.. :confused:

If I can answer any questions for you, please feel free to email me.

MotorCityMike
01-24-2003, 03:04 PM
Pic2

MotorCityMike
01-24-2003, 03:08 PM
Pic3

MotorCityMike
01-24-2003, 03:09 PM
Pic4

MotorCityMike
01-24-2003, 03:11 PM
I alomost forgot...these can be had in stainless too. Email me if interested and I'll give you details.

Rob Noth
01-24-2003, 05:34 PM
Mike,
That looks like a nice product, finally a direct fit shorty for our car.

Can I make a suggestion? LONG TUBES, LONG TUBES, LONG TUBES! Right now the only other headers for the SC are made by Kooks Custom Headers in NY, and these are only 28" long (more like a mid length), and they have a very short collector taper.

If you were to make a true long-tube header with a good design, I bet you could sell a lot of those. Especially if the price was comparable or less than the $620 that you'd pay for coated Kooks headers.

35th SC
01-24-2003, 06:47 PM
Mike,
I second the long tube header request!

Mike

Nick Sc
01-24-2003, 09:17 PM
How long is a long tube header? from what point to what point? also how long would one want the collectors to be?? Thanks Nick

392Bird
01-24-2003, 09:39 PM
Yea, and Long Tubes for the 89-93 TBrids with 5.0 in them.
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee. :)

There are only shorties with 1 1/2 primaries for them. We need some LTs with 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 primaries.

curse
01-25-2003, 12:23 AM
I'd be very intrested in any type that you are willing to produce. Could you please e-mail me any details nlocc@hotmail.com thanks
Victor

Very nice looking header:D

mn12sc35th
01-25-2003, 02:56 AM
Sexy,sexy,sexy mmmmmm

Would love to see some long tubes as well...

At least there are other companies trying to make parts for our cars. Looks like a very comparable product at about 120$ cheaper than the kooks headers. Now if I can find 500$..... Well that's something else.

David Neibert
01-25-2003, 12:27 PM
I hate to be the only stick in the mud, but why do you guys think long tube headers are necessary ?

I was one of the suckers who bought into all the hype Bill Hull was spreading several years back about the big power gains from adding headers and a free flowing exhaust. Before doing anything else to the car I had the Kooks medium length headers and exhaust installed. I think it gained 10-15 HP, not the 60 that advertised.

I think just porting the exhaust manifolds (mainly the collectors) and installing the free flowing exhaust would be plenty to run high to mid 13s. If the kooks medium length headers are good enough to support 500 HP (Chris Wise), then why bother with long tubes ? I do agree they look killer, but don't think they are necessary to make big power.

David

XR7 Dave
01-25-2003, 09:37 PM
I CAN tell you that long tubes make exhaust work a ~~~~, since nothing you buy for the rest of the exhaust will fit. :)

Thomas A
01-25-2003, 11:54 PM
Dave brings up another interesting point. At what point are headers really neccasary? What kinda RWHP numbers do you need to be putting down to benifit from the added flow of headers over stock exhaust manifolds?

Thomas

392Bird
01-26-2003, 12:33 AM
Its all about flow.
http://www.qsl.net/ya5t/exhaust1.htm

XxSlowpokexX
01-26-2003, 10:47 AM
Long tubes...EVen if not equal lenght..Tuned exhaust..Now on an almost 400 RWHP motor..The difference between manifolds, Kooks headers, and real long tubes would be substantial. My Sc Dyno experience is Nill...But I've been building and racing SBF for years..Had everything from Nitrous,roots blowers, cetrifigal blowers, screw type blowes, as well as turboes. One thing I can tell you. On a stock motor your gain switching from manifolds to headers will be minimal...As will an exhaust in general. Depending on just how restrictive that exhaust may be. In the case of a stock SC we arnt dealing with much power. Someone should do a before and after comparison on a stock SC after exhaust has been added..See what the Dyno tells....Me..I have kooks and would love a set of real full lenghts..I know I'm going to get power from teh swap:O)

tbird88
01-26-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by MotorCityMike
Seeing as how this is my first post, please allow me to intoduce myself.

I am Mike Lasiuta and I represent a company located in Chesterfield, MI by the name of PF&E. We are currently expanding our facilities to produce headers for your cars of interest, the T-Bird SC as well as many others.

We currently have a pre-production prototype set of header made from mild steel and coated with high-temperature ceramic coating.

I will attach a few pics for you. Sorry about the photo quality, they were taken with no flash under flourescent lighting, which didn't really turn out too well. I will get better pics for you and post them ASAP.

The price for these headers is $379 uncoated, or $479 coated. We can also make custom Y-pipes and cat-back exhaust systems if you're local. We use only the best quality materials and every header is TIG welded for strenght.

I didn't know where else to post this so I hope its in the right place.. :confused:

If I can answer any questions for you, please feel free to email me.

MotorCityMike...Glad you stopped by to visit and thank you for your interest in offering help on the header situation. Myself, like others, I would love to have a well-built shorty header and for it to be reasonably priced also. You score high on both counts in my book.
I assume you work with Gary, can you guys handle the production? I ask because I can fully understand gettin' swamped with orders, happens to me all the time.

'bird

tbird88
01-26-2003, 01:12 PM
Who among us needs long-tubes? For street use, I really doubt anybody needs 'em except for the N/A guys.
It's not like we are that short on low-end torque, one of the main benefit of longtubes, now is it? We don't really need to extend our powerband to higher rpms either...or do we?

'bird

IGot6UGot8
01-26-2003, 01:18 PM
Are these direct bolt on replacement of the manifolds? Will they bolt in place without modifying the exhaust pipes?

Thanks
Jake

fast Ed
01-26-2003, 01:34 PM
OK Mike, so how about an e-mail address or phone number to contact your shop ????



cheers
Ed Nicholson
SCCoO

MotorCityMike
01-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Just to answer a few questions for you....
These headers are direct replacement for all SC 3.8's.
I am marketing them for Gark Cook over at PF&E. The number there is (586)949-3400 please ask for Greg, he is in charge of internet sales. The hours of operation are M-F 8am-5pm and Sat. 9-12pm EST. If there is no answer for some reason, please leave a message for Greg. PF&E is currently expanding their operation and increasing production, so please bear with us as we bring things up to speed.

XxSlowpokexX
01-26-2003, 06:33 PM
Oh I plan on revving to 6500..And on blown SBF I've noticed a substantial improvement up top going from a shorty to a long tube....But hey...Its all about efficiency...Sure a shorty can flow just as much if not more then a long tube depending...However never as efficiently..But to each his own I always say:O)

v6stanger
01-26-2003, 06:49 PM
MotorCityMike:

If you guys are serious about this. I would highly recommend going to v6power.net also.

Alot of 3.8 mustang guys would kill for a nice set of long tubes. All we have is the crappy quality MAC brand which have fitment problems and crappy coatings.

Zach

tbird88
01-26-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Damon Slowpoke Baumann
Oh I plan on revving to 6500..And on blown SBF I've noticed a substantial improvement up top going from a shorty to a long tube....But hey...Its all about efficiency...Sure a shorty can flow just as much if not more then a long tube depending...However never as efficiently..But to each his own I always say:O)
I'm sure they'd be happy to build you larger/longer tubes. But for most of us on the street, I'm sure 5500 would be more than ample as an rpm limit and the potential buyers market much larger. Put that together with other factors such as our ignition sequences & cam design and I think they'd sell the heck out've shorties.

I've asked before on the old boards in various header/exhaust threads about others thoughts concerning scavenging etc but got no concrete answers, actually didn't get many responses. Be more than happy to hear anyone's opinions. Keep in mind I'm not askin' about SBF's or BBChevy dragboat engines, basicly lookin' for breathin' theory on street apps.

'bird

fast Ed
01-26-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by MotorCityMike
Just to answer a few questions for you....
These headers are direct replacement for all SC 3.8's.


Mike, I just want to ask if you have looked at application fitments for all years of the SC motor ... some of our cars are EGR equipped, some aren't ... do you have a different R/S header for that, or a provision for capping off the EGR tube fitting on the header if not needed ? Also, the 94 - 95 cars have a different R/S manifold and EGR tube, what needs to be done to install the headers on those cars ?

thanks
Ed N.

curse
01-26-2003, 07:20 PM
Heck if they are really serious i say we should start a group buy. i know I will be getting a set, really don't care which shorties would be more than fine for me

IGot6UGot8
01-26-2003, 07:29 PM
I second that. I won't have the cash for a couple months, but they look a heck of a lot better than stock or bored manifolds. Would it be possible to get a slight discount for a group purchase?

Jake

syphon
01-26-2003, 08:29 PM
Can someone summarize the difference between shortie and long tube headers for me? Advantages and Disadvantages of each?

GooeyGus2
01-26-2003, 09:06 PM
obviously the long tubes are longer, and look pretty sweet from under the car, they can also be hard do to exhaust work with though. they will increse flow more smoothly into the rest of the exhuast.

JJanney
01-26-2003, 09:43 PM
If this company is willing to make long tubes, maybe they can also make the rest of the exhaust also. For instance, maybe an h- or an x-pipe behind the long tubes? Buying an entire exhaust system from one company saves on shipping and seeing as his prices are pretty low to begin with...

Jason Wild
01-26-2003, 10:07 PM
I would Kill for a set of headers that look like that.
Group Buy would be amazing!:D

Mike8675309
01-26-2003, 10:48 PM
Short tube headers are really just designed to ease the flow of exhaust out of the engine cylinders. They are designed to have the least restriction possible to the flow of exhaust gases. And that's about it.

Long tube headers are designed to do everything the short tube headers are, but they are also typically "tuned" so that the shock waves from the exhaust gases impact within the collector to reflect back into the combustion chamber such that the remaining exhaust gases are "scavanged" out of the chamber.

This scavanging effect allows for more exhaust gas to be removed from the cylinder than would otherwise exit under it's own power.

Less exhaust in the engine cylinder means more intake fuel/air mixture can be sucked into it during the intake stroke as the exhaust won't be taking up the space! (whew)

But as with all things SC, there is a little difference on our car.

And that is that when we really want power, our Air/Fuel mixture is under higher than atmospheric pressure (boost), and due to that, the exhaust doesn't really need to be scavanged because it is PUSHED out by the incoming intake mixture. (there is some valve overlap)

So the benefit of well designed long tube headers on a naturally aspirated car are certain. But on a supercharged engine, the benefits are of much less value.

Now if long tubes where the same as short tubes, then sure, maybe it would be a fun thing to do. But as some have found, you can get 80-95% of short tube header performance with well massaged stock exhaust manifolds. Those that want that extra 10% get the short tube headers. But long tube headers are expensive, assuming someone makes them, and their value is dubious when you look at their cost.

At least that is the impression i've gotten from others after hanging out here for 2 years. (and a little garage logic thrown in)

MotorCityMike
01-26-2003, 11:34 PM
We will offer a 10% discount on all group purchase orders. If you want exhaust we will need a car local or someone willing to travel so we have something to start from. This also goes for long tubes.

IGot6UGot8
01-26-2003, 11:42 PM
What is your minimum purchase required for a group purchase?

Jake

BlownSuperBird
01-27-2003, 02:17 AM
Im all for the group perchase (shorties) and is there going to be an option to pick up the headers fer savings on shipping and time?

ben m
01-27-2003, 05:48 PM
i already have a pretty amazing exaust that i designed myself, but i would drive to detriot so that they could make a killer exaust for our cars, maybe some side pipes too! it wouldn't be for awile, though. im still in school and would need to wait until my spring break, but e-mail me if you guys want me to go.

mach1coupe@yahoo.com

ben m

Slysc
01-27-2003, 10:18 PM
I'm from the Detroit area and I'd be willing to stop by with my car to get a quote on some long tube headers or just to check out your shorties. But... my cars in the garage waiting for my custom pistons. I'll look you up in a month or so when it's on the road.

Thomas A
01-28-2003, 02:43 AM
If a group order is setup, I think there would be a lot more intrest. I'd prolly be in for a set.

MotorCityMike:
Would you then setup group buy info on your guys' website, or would you rather have us as a club gather all the order info and then submit it to you as whole order?

If we need to get something started as a club, let me know. I'm not sure if I'd be up for it, but if no one else steps up I will throw my name in.

Thomas

Mike8675309
01-28-2003, 09:23 PM
Keep in mind that we have a group buy forum on this website.

Bill McNeil
01-29-2003, 02:25 AM
I'll have stock manifolds still, and they work just fine.

They came free with the car too.:rolleyes:

MotorCityMike
01-29-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Bill McNeil
I'll have stock manifolds still, and they work just fine.

They came free with the car too.:rolleyes:

To each his own... :rolleyes: This thread was started to let the owners of SC 3.8's know that a product is becoming available for their cars, not to compare apples to oranges. :rolleyes:

I will say this just one time, and hope that my message is clear.

I don't care if you buy these headers or not. It makes no difference to me either way. If you want a set please call the shop. If you don't want a set then why are you posting here?

vettewars
01-29-2003, 01:17 PM
a system which goes from either stock manifold or shorty headers to the point of connection just behind the stock center muffler.

The elimination of the cats and center muffler is the best single improvement one can make on exhaust (at low price)....the rear mufflers are not all that bad and can be replaced anytime.

But no one sells anything which allows this bypass. I've heard from at least one that eliminated the center muffler and "replaced it" with a crossover pipe....and it didn't sound ricey or resonant....that would be great....and I bet you'd sell alot of them if they were reasonably priced ($200 or less sound right?)

tripntx
01-29-2003, 01:59 PM
I'm interested in the shorty's.

MotorCityMike
01-29-2003, 03:11 PM
Well heres an update for some of you that may be wondering....

The group purchase will require a minimum of 10 sets of headers in any variety. What we will do is take emails from those of you wanting headers. We ask that you include your full name, shipping address, and daytime phone number. Emails may be directed to me. We will offer 10% off of each individual invoice after we receive 10 confirmation emails. Please include SCCOA in your email to recieve the group purchase price.

We will not be building these headers until the end of February due to current commitments. We will take the orders for them now, but please allow time for production and shipping.

Shipping is to be paid for by the purchaser. We will only bill you for actual shipping/boxing fees.

Those of you that are local can pick up your headers in Chesterfield, MI when the time comes.

I also wanted to mention that we currently do not have a website set up. That is in the planning stages now, and once up and running, it will have an online catalog and order form. I don't have a specific timeframe as to when it will be completed, as thats up to the designer/developer.

Oh, and I didn't want to forget to add prices for stainless headers. They will run $459 or $559 coated.

Thanks for all of your interest. Any further questions or comments may be directed to me via email or call PF&E and ask for Greg at 586-949-3400.

XR7
01-29-2003, 05:03 PM
Hmm.. not sure if this was asked..

These are the dimensions of the Kooks
1 " primaries
2.4" I.D. collectors

Are we going to get equal numbers on these Shorty Headers..
If this is the case.. I am there.. will mail you today.. even though we won't get them till after Feb...

Karl

DarrylO
01-29-2003, 05:30 PM
Just goes to show these cars don't need a header if Bill can push 300+ RWHP outta the stock manifolds with a little porting..

vettewars
01-29-2003, 05:40 PM
I spoke to Greg directly and I'm working on a way to get him a car to experiment on for a bolt on center piece that connects from stock manifolds to the ball and socket joint behind the center muffler, including an X pipe in the middle to replace the center muffler....

I remember reading a thread where a guy designed his own X pipe and it worked like a muffler....and he sounds like he's willing to R&D, dyno, and design this.

Anyone remember that thread, the guy, or has anyone else designed the X pipe?...where to put it...how did it sound, etc?
Anyone interested in a group buy on that?.....I know I'd buy up to 5 right off the bat...you just can't beat the advantages....

1. Easy Cat bypass
2. Probably solid 25 to 30 hp increase
3. Low cost ($200 to 300?)
4. Easy installation - true bolt on in hour or less
5. Less weight
6. Easy route to accomodate other mods and reduce head gasket blow

David Neibert
01-29-2003, 06:21 PM
I think your making several assumptions that may not be true.

Going from the stock manifolds to the far side of the resonator, removes the most restrictive portion (stock resonator) but still retains the second biggest restriction. (stock single pipe).

Solid 25-30 HP gains won't be happening on a stock or moderatly modded SC even if you installed headers and a complete exhaust.

Replacing the resonator with an "X" pipe and then joining the two pipes into a single pipe one or 2 ft. later doesn't make any sense. The purpose of an "X" or "H" pipe is to balance both sides of a true dual system. Those systems I've heard with out resonators (dual or single pipe) sound pretty bad (farty, or raspy).

I believe you can accomplish the same thing by purchasing a set of downtubes with high flow cats and a resonator from SCP.

David

vettewars
01-29-2003, 06:41 PM
confirm BIG gains with removing the cats and resonator....plus many threads here.....
and many others and I have discounted any noticeable improvement by removing the rear mufflers...

I haven't dynoed any of this....but I've done the step by step process of removing the cats....much better.....remove the resonator.....better balls....more top end.....

my seat of the pants and references of pulling 90 in my makeshift quarter vs. 85 stock mean to me it has to be somewhere in the 20 hp range at least....so I went out on a limb to add a few more.

I bought the SCCOA headers and resonator....and I do 95 in my makeshift quarter with that.....yes I'm happy with that....but the center muffler is too big and an eye soar.

That still doesn't make the idea a bad idea...IF the X pipe can truly act as an effective muffler......it still has the advantages I've listed...and if you add a few extra other input changes at low cost (like spinning the blower up, MAF, cold air system).....you've done the lowest cost avenue to reducing head gasket blowing....and you have the potential to create a 14 second SC for under $1000 TOTAL.....and with about 4 hours of work.

Now tell me that's not a good idea.....for the second, third, forth, fifth...or....that you own.....

tbirdboy
01-29-2003, 07:16 PM
Would be interesting to see horsepower/torque numbers done on a well tuned mule to get a better perspective on my reason to buy. Flashy coating is cool and all and the lack of aftermarket leaves a longing in my gut to just go out and buy something just because new products for our cars are a rarity, but personally I would like some numbers(HP/T) other than the price for me to fork out a credit card and charge it.
Sure are pretty though, with some custom valve covers, wires and polished tubes and polished pulleys and aluminum rad tank and.........:)

David Neibert
01-29-2003, 08:19 PM
Now tell me that's not a good idea.....for the second, third, forth, fifth...or....that you own.....

I'm not sure I understand what your saying, but it sounds like your angry. Are you saying you would put this part on all five of the SCs you own ?

I'm not saying your ideas are bad...I'm just having problems visulizing an "X" pipe in conjunction with the single exhaust pipe. Here is a picture of the stock exhaust I borrowed from SCP's website. Maybe you can describe what your planning using the picture.

http://www.supercoupeperformance.com/3.jpg

BTW, you never mentioned headers and down tubes. Earlier you said from the stock manifolds to the ball socket joint behind the center muffler. Anyhow, It's not a muffler, it's a resonator. Again..if you don't deal with the small single pipe..you won't be able to get any of the low cost HP you mention.

I have either track tested or dyno tested nearly every mod I've done over the past five years. I've also talked to dozens of SC owners about what worked and what didn't. I'm only trying to share my experince, not argue with you.

Good luck with your project.

David

XxSlowpokexX
01-29-2003, 09:36 PM
The first exhaust I ever put in my SC was a replacement for the section you plan on doing. I had 2 2 1/4 pipes into an H pipe back into one. Reason for the H pipe was that I was planning on a dual exhaust system. The sound was a tad raspy. Not overly however. Keep in mind the stock mufflers on these cars barely do any muffling. I noticed a substantial increase in performance. Besides the resonator, the two biggest restriction are the 90 degree bend going into the factory cats as well as the 2 inch or smaller ball at the end of the resonator. Making up a front bolt in kit will eliminate the resonator and the two 90 degree bends however the ball size will still be the same. Perhaps you can use a standard 2.5 inch collector flange and supply a new one for installation on the back half of the exhaust. Another rexhaust I have treid was two 2 1/4 inch pipes into a single 2.5 inch catalytic. This setup had only a very slight increase in sound, passed emmisions (tailpipe), and did show an improvement in performance..Still that system retained that rather small 2 inch ball where the resonator ended. If he's willing to do some research and dyno testing there are at least two ideas worth giving a shot. I'd personally work at something emmisions legal...Hey..Goodluck:O)

Mike8675309
01-30-2003, 01:17 AM
MotorCityMike

More power to you and your group. Having people supporting our cars with parts is great to see. For those that want some headers, it's looking like yours may be the best deal in town.

I think people just wanted to make sure everyone knows that for reasonably good performance, the stock manifolds ported are a true option.

In addition, Long Tube headers have questionable benefit on our cars.

And while Headers may not be completely necessary, assuming a good design, shorty headers can provide an advantage over ported stock manifolds.

Hellraizer547
01-30-2003, 01:24 AM
Hello, i'm a huge newbie and have a dumb question.
What is the point of coating it? are there hp gains or is it better or what, because 100 more bucks is alot so it has to make a big difference, thanx for your guys' input.

MotorCityMike
01-30-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Hellraizer547
Hello, i'm a huge newbie and have a dumb question.
What is the point of coating it? are there hp gains or is it better or what, because 100 more bucks is alot so it has to make a big difference, thanx for your guys' input.

Coating does a few things....

It keeps the heat inside the header, therefore making more thermal efficiency. It also keeps engine compartment heat down, which in a way could contribute to lower engine operating temperatures, less problems with overheating the starter, etc.
Not to mention that coating them makes them look better and last longer.

I wanted to post and let you guys know that the header size is 1 3/4 primary with a 2.5" collector for those that were asking.

MercsSC
01-30-2003, 12:18 PM
Your Z28 painted with 87 IROC blue ? I have half gallon of that colour ..going to do the SC in it ..and hey thanks for making the new plumbing for us :cool:

MotorCityMike
01-30-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by MercsSC
Your Z28 painted with 87 IROC blue ? I have half gallon of that colour ..going to do the SC in it ..and hey thanks for making the new plumbing for us :cool:

That was the original color of the car, but its been slightly customized with added pearls. It really is hard to catch in a picture, but the paint looks lighter and brighter in the sun, and dark and shiny in the dark. Its really hard to describe. I've had lots of people asking for the paint recipe ;)

Oh, and your welcome :D

MercsSC
01-30-2003, 12:53 PM
thats what I loved about the stock colour ...it was very moody .. as I like to call it ..:D

tripntx
01-30-2003, 02:22 PM
I just emailed him to be added to the list for group purchase.

vettewars
01-30-2003, 04:13 PM
I know this center section would work....

I also don't believe that the stock system....from the ball joint in the center back is that much of a problem....this has been documented with pressure readings on a very old thread.

That's EXACTLY why this is a low cost alternative for the average SC owner to avoid a high cost complete cat back system...while still retaining a decent back end of the stock exhaust.

I've run the headers, SC center muffler, and with back disconnected or with back mufflers taken out....and I got no noticeable improvement....

I talked to a guy on the phone that posted here....can't find the thread where he made an X pipe and it sounded OK....

not sure the difference in performance or "muffling capacity" of an X vs an H.....

Could you describe the H-Pipe....where you put it.....and did it have any objectionable resonances?

XxSlowpokexX
01-30-2003, 08:58 PM
There was no research into where I put my H. I just put it where the stock resonator was. Like I said preciously, a little raspier but not overly loud. In my opinion the nicest sounding of all was the single cat setup..I failed to mention it also has stock replacement dynomax...If hes willing to do testing of these systems...Try a few...Also The borla XS mufflers will get rid of alot of the raspiness ..There great:O)

XxSlowpokexX
01-30-2003, 08:59 PM
There was no research into where I put my H. I just put it where the stock resonator was. Like I said preciously, a little raspier but not overly loud. In my opinion the nicest sounding of all was the single cat setup..A single highflow 2.5 cat only cost around 80$ I failed to mention it also has stock replacement dynomax...If hes willing to do testing of these systems...Try a few...Also The borla XS mufflers will get rid of alot of the raspiness ..There great:O)

MotorCityMike
01-30-2003, 09:22 PM
I don't know what kind of room there is under these cars (until we get another one at the shop for reference) but we could do something like this:

from the headers into a 2 1/2" y-pipe to a single 3" converter (if needed) back to another 2 1/2" y-pipe with 2 stainless Magnaflow mufflers? They're a straight thru design and look and sound great.

Just a thought to throw out there...

Keep the emails coming!

XxSlowpokexX
01-30-2003, 09:54 PM
Mike I mentioned the Borlas because they are especially quiet and the one thing about these cars that people after doing exhaust complain about is the sound...Kinda like a Honda v6 on steroids to put it mildly...If your making a Y pipe for stock manifolds you cant mate up bigger then a 2 1/4 pipe to it. I realize that header flange is 2.5 inch and that great however that wont with the stock manifolds. Idealy I would from the header go into into to 2 .5 inch cats then out back to a 3 - 3.5 inch then back into two 2.5....Ive also seen the dual 2.5 pipes into one 3 inch cat, 3 inch to the back, then out to two 2.5 mufflers..Wonder how a single 3.5 inch to the back would work....You still might want to look into a resonator for the front half....

As far as headers..Is that a jet hot or HPC coating?....They do lower temps a tad in teh engine compartment but work mostly as a rust deterent as far as I'm concerned. DO you use that because its local?..If not you might want to look into SWAINTECH.com ...They do real thermal barrier coatings on headers that work great...

Also....If you plan on doing fulllenghts..Count me in:O)

Thomas A
01-31-2003, 12:59 AM
Mike,

What kind of warrenty would these headers come with? Also, will manifold gaskets be needed? Thanks.

Thomas

darriantbird
02-01-2003, 12:40 AM
If your looking for lowering under hood heat the only realistic way is to use something know as" header tape" it looks like hell but you can't see the header very well in our cars anyhow with all the room under our hood LOL.

Thomas A
02-03-2003, 01:08 AM
ttt

MotorCityMike
02-03-2003, 10:59 AM
The warranty period will be for one year from the date of purchase.

Its is very rare that our headers ever have a problem in their lifetime, however due to the coatings being outsourced and their warranty being one year, we would have to stay within the one year also.

pearl95sc
02-03-2003, 04:29 PM
I can't find the picture right now, but there is a company called yodude performance that makes a custom exhaust that is true duals with an x pipe. When I checked on the different prices, the said that it had not been tested on an SC yet , but should fit. It is only available for 94 and up birds also. The system is also a complete mandrel bent system. It can be fitted with high flow cats, and mufflers too. They don't have pics on their website, but you could e-mail them if interested. www.yodudeperformance.com is the web adress. Give it a look if interested. My original idea was to use this system with no cats and throw my flowmasters on the end.

vettewars
02-03-2003, 06:53 PM
For the cheapo "center section I've suggested, I thought this was cute...2 X 2" inlet, one 2 1/2 (all inside diameters) from Whitney....but it's expensive at $134.
They have a high flow 2 1/2 in and out at $109.

HIGH-CAPACITY SUPER-FLOW CATALYTIC CONVERTERS
Each
81ZX6047X
$134.95
High-flow-rate monolithic catalyst (400 cells P.S.I.) for dramatically lower back pressure than with most OE converters!
Dual aluminized heat shield allows converter to be mounted on either side 409 stainless steel case
High-capacity, super-flow catalytic converters increase horsepower and improve fuel economy! Features: odor-resistant catalyst; heat and vibration-resistant mat. Features capped air tubes so converter can be used on vehicles that come with or without air tubes. Clamp-on or weld-on installation; mounting hardware not included.
Note: Meets these EPA displacement requirements: up to 7.5L engines with vehicle curb weight of 7,000 lbs. or less, exc. California. For California, 2-way 7.5L 7,000 lbs., 3-way 5.7L 6,000 lbs., 3-way w/air, 5.9L 6,000 lbs. Inlet and outlet sizes are inside diameters. Choose single-in, single-out with single air tube, dual-in, single-out with dual air tubes and dual-in, dual-out with dual air tubes.

Cheapest one in one out I found on the web for $75
or use that available on SCCOA site....

http://store.duratecperformance.com/store/shop.mpl?Cat=2,20,28&Item=261

CarSound High-Flow Universal 3" Catalytic Converter

This high flow cat has been proven to flow over 400 cfm of exhaust on the flow bench! Replacing restrictive OEM catalytic converters with our CarSound units will free up horsepower that is lost while trying to push exhaust out an all-too-restrictive pipe. We offer these converters with an inlet/outlet diameter of 2" through 3" -- most applications should use the 3" piping. We will contact you via email to ensure you receive the correct inlet/outlet size.

Cannot find a short Y pipe on the web to do that installation.
Used to be available at whitney

Thomas A
02-03-2003, 11:55 PM
You can get 2.5" high flow cats from Jegs or Summit for ~$55.

MIKE,

When is the end date to this group purchase? I'm still trying to decided on this. Thanks.

Thomas

DLF
02-04-2003, 02:40 AM
Here's what's after my Kooks Shorties. Jeg's cats and a Magnaflow muffler.

http://users.rcn.com/fraleigh/SCExhaust.jpg

pastera
02-04-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by DLF
Here's what's after my Kooks Shorties. Jeg's cats and a Magnaflow muffler.

http://users.rcn.com/fraleigh/SCExhaust.jpg

DLF: does that setup bolt to stock manifolds? In other words, do the kooks shorties hook up the same as stock manifolds.

Also how much?

Aaron

DLF
02-04-2003, 07:49 PM
No, the Kook's headers are actually mid-length, and my system will not bolt up to the stock manifolds. I fabricated it myself, and not counting the cost of the MIG welder, it was about $300.

vettewars
02-05-2003, 11:31 AM
I know the resonator is a flow through....it's not restrictive at all...but it's bulky and heavy and expensive....

I'm going to experiment with either the X pipe from magnaflow at $55 or a single cat to replace the 3 components pictured above.....

Just to compare....SCCOA http://www.supercoupeperformance.com/
offers these possibilities....which are expensive when you include the resonator ....and I've never understood why they don't offer a "complete" center section.....or one that simple bolts up to the stock back system...
you have to do that yourself or go custom all the way back...

SCP High Flow 2 " Down Tubes For Headers
Oxygen Sensor fittings will be in the headers themselves.
Our down tubes go from the header to the transmission cross member. Note that they do NOT go all the way to the resonator. If you elect to have the cats, each will be welded in place on to the piping. Our cat-back exhaust will mate right up to these or you may have any muffler shop mate these to any other exhaust.
With High Flow Converters $325/pair

Without Converters $195/pair

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SCP High Flow 2 " Down Tubes For Factory Cast Iron Manifolds
Includes Oxygen Sensor fitting for the passenger side. The drivers side O2 fitting is in the cast iron exhaust manifold.
Our down tubes go from the factory manifolds to the transmission cross member. Note that they do NOT go all the way to the resonator. If you elect to have the cats, each will be welded in place on to the piping. Our cat-back exhaust will mate right up to these or you may have any muffler shop mate these to any other exhaust.
With High Flow Converters $325/pair

Without Converters $195/pair

Magnaflow Resonator $115
High quality dual-inlet, single outlet welded construction resonator. This is not a cheap stamped steel unit that will rust out in two or three years.

Available for with a larger dual 2 " inlet and a single 3" outlet. This resonator can also be made to work on your stock system with reducers.

pastera
02-05-2003, 11:57 AM
Looks like I'll be off to the local exhaust shop - can't afford >$1000 for a new exhaust. I'm sure I can do better locally. It may not be mandrel bent but I'm not looking for big HP numbers.

I was looking for a front section with cats and resonator for around $350-400. Then I could use the flowmaster cat-back system for $270.

Aaron

vettewars
02-05-2003, 12:29 PM
Aaron,

You don't need a front section with 2 cats and resonator...get them to do take off the cats and stock resonator....then have them patch in a single (2 1/2 or 3" in and out) cat....this looks like a low risk way to go based on previous comments....you'll be happy with the performance....and you'll be under your budget.

Interesting....I didn't know you could get the back end for that cheap.

As I said before....I ran headers through magnaflow resonator open (disconnected from back) and with back on....with no performance difference.....so I would wait untill the back goes before you upgrade that....

pearlwhite94sc
02-05-2003, 08:30 PM
when does this end becaus i dont have the dough right now but i am deffinitly interested in a set and will have the money soon. When you say uncoated is that a bare metal finish or is it still nickel plated just no ceramic coat? if its just nickel is it possible to get a set in bare metal form?

thanks
Chris

pearlwhite94sc
02-05-2003, 08:46 PM
i forgot to say also that on my car i gutted the cats and eliminated the resonator with a straight piece of pipe. i have the Flowmaster force 2 cat-back system.
Its loud and without the resonator it does have a hollow sound at about 1700-2000 rpm but other than that it sounds good!
I get compliments all the time on how smooth and bad it sounds at the same time. When i was at the local dragstrip this summer Johnny Lightning of Johnny Lightening Performance complimented me on how good it sounded screaming down the track!

Also i think after doing alot of work under the SC long tube headers are a no-no!!! alot of stuff like (motor mounts, clutch....) require you to unbolt the downpipe. Having a full length header would make alot of things difficult to get to!

Thats just my two cents
Chris

35th_tbird
02-05-2003, 10:15 PM
i would definitely be interested but getting the money would be another story...

Thomas
02-08-2003, 05:11 PM
I'm interested in the shorties (I don't make much power yet anyway) and I'm just wondering what the size and flow differences are between your shorties and the 96/97 shorties from a 3.8. I'm sure they're bigger, but I'm just curious as to how much. Because it's like a 300 dollar difference between the two.
-Thomas

1BADSC
02-09-2003, 03:55 AM
Has anyone noticed that these are not even equal length headers and the welds aren't that great looking either, maybe it is just the picture.
And are those headers mandrel bent or are those just a bunch of different bends all welded together to make a long pipe. Cause that is what it looks like.

MotorCityMike
02-09-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by 1BADSC
Has anyone noticed that these are not even equal length headers and the welds aren't that great looking either, maybe it is just the picture.
And are those headers mandrel bent or are those just a bunch of different bends all welded together to make a long pipe. Cause that is what it looks like.

Have you noticed that theres is no practical way to make equal length headers for these cars? Where is the room?

If you're looking for quality, please take out your microscope and look closely. These have thick flanges, TIG welds, and are built by experienced fabricators that are highly skilled welders. This company has been building custom headers since 1989....these are not some garage built pieces of scrap metal.

Like I said before, if you don't like them or have a problem with the way they look, then don't buy them. Its that simple.

XR7 Dave
02-09-2003, 11:01 AM
Thomas, factory headers are a complete waste of time. The primary tubes are 1.5", which is not bad, but then they are not mandrel bent, so they crush down real bad on the bends, and then where thy come together they crunch down even more to like about 1/2 their original size.

1BADSC
02-09-2003, 01:47 PM
MotorcityMike.... Not so sure about that. Kooks managed to get something near perfect if not perfect. As far as the welds go, maybe it was the pictures, but then again I can't see them.

35th_tbird
02-09-2003, 05:48 PM
come on now...let's not get offensive. at least he's providing something as an alternative to the rather expensive kooks headers. if you don't like the looks of his product, or you just love the kooks ones that much, then don't get them, stick with kooks. i for one am glad he's bringing them to the table. i think that he's only trying to help a group of people that don't have a large aftermarket for their cars (as compared to some others) get some better stuff on those cars. like i said, if you don't like them, don't rag on him trying to insult his work, just go with the kooks headers, i'm sure he won't mind, since there are people here who are interested in his headers.

1BADSC
02-09-2003, 06:20 PM
All I am trying to say is that people are going to be buying a header that is not going to perform much better than the stock manifold.

XxSlowpokexX
02-09-2003, 09:30 PM
Ahhhh...We are lucky that anyone puts any effort into building peices for our cars....As for those headers....Thats just how you make custom headers..Peice by peice (all mandrel bent of course)..If there is enough of a calling....Then you can call your tubing suplier and have exact mandrel bent *one peice primaries* made...Which is not really nec...Then you can be Like MAC and make a header whose flanges never bolt up correctly because their mass produced ~~~...Anyway..Hes offering a product..No one is telling you to buy them..On mor ething..If you believe 2 inch outlets are good for a supercharged vehicle....I dont know what to tell you

35th_tbird
02-10-2003, 07:34 PM
thank you damon, i'm glad i'm not the only one who feels that way. the more products for our cars, the better competition will favor us. if kooks sees these header being made for our cars, and people buying them, they might lower their prices to stay in competition with this company. if they don't...then we have these headers at a lower price than the kooks ones. all i'm saying is that i for one am glad that we have a choice.

35th_tbird
02-10-2003, 07:38 PM
on another note...is there a confirmed choice between short and long tubes? or are people getting carried away with the long tube _idea_ and wanting to order them.

XxSlowpokexX
02-10-2003, 10:45 PM
Well I'm getting a set of Kooks long tubes in soon so Ill most likely get rid of my short tube Kooks...Normally I would just stick with the shorties for ease of installation and what not..But I'm wanting those 3 inch collectors..And after spending all that dough on everything else..Why not:O)..I plan on moving alot of air and for what I'm doing I'm not happy with the Kooks shorties collectors..However these new shorties have a nice collector on them at a reasonable price. So unless your looking to be #1 in the SCCOA..Dont bother with the long tubes..You dont need them..Hell you probably dont need them to be #1. But I personaly can use all the help I can get

DGernmann
02-11-2003, 05:24 AM
Guys, this is off the subject but goes with the exhaust questions, looking to upgrade exhaust, should I go with a single cat-then 3" tube then muffler, then y pipe and then other 2 mufflers, or do 2 high flow cats, then a muffler 2 in 2 out and go duals from the middle muffler out to the rear with a muffler on each side?? Also what brand should I use Borla, Mangnaflow or Flowmaster?? For rear and for center?? I do not want alot of drone inside the car. I can't decide!!! HELP!! Also I have a 94sc. Thanks.

1BADSC
02-11-2003, 11:55 AM
just use a single 3 inch pipe, it will have the same cross flow area of 2, two inch pipes.

91TBird5.0
02-12-2003, 11:39 PM
Where do I get a set of headers for a 91 5.0. Long or short doesn't matter?????

MotorCityMike
02-18-2003, 11:24 AM
We have 3 confirmed for the group purchase... TTT^

lowflying90
02-18-2003, 12:33 PM
how much are they going to cost?

jeff

MotorCityMike
03-01-2003, 04:43 PM
So far we have 3 confirmed for the GP. Anybody else thats been considering getting them should join in now for the 10% discount.

XR7
03-04-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by MotorCityMike
So far we have 3 confirmed for the GP. Anybody else thats been considering getting them should join in now for the 10% discount.

Hey, I apologize for this.. but in order to get the full details as well as other conversations in this 7 page thread.. could you please provide the following again

Price for Coated in group buy..

and You will be able to confirm myself as number 4

Just need to know the price again..

also You stated at one time in the begining I remember, you were going to get some better pictures... were you ever able to do so?.

Karl

BlackbirdSC
03-04-2003, 03:30 PM
Any chance on getting a 'real' collector on them? That's where the main power gain is from a header. Tube length being second to collector length. A nearly non-existant collector hurts their potential.

Even a 6" or 8" collector would be great.

And for the people that think Kooks headers are perfect or near perfect..... ahhhh... ya. Neither of the sets I've had were perfect. The first were downright pitiful and the 2nd are average > above average at best.

XxSlowpokexX
03-04-2003, 08:26 PM
Now I have had my kooks shorties for awhile now..I'd have to say they were excellant in quality..I been to their shop and actually watched them make headers..Shop is CLEAN AS A WHISTLE..I must admit that their shorties do not have the best collector design..Diameter wise..But hell....Its all a compromise..If you dont liek teh shorties you can always go fro some full lenghts:O)..Now tell me this..What would be the difference between lets say a 6 inch collector with a 3inch diameter as compared to a 3 inch collecto with a 3 ich diameter connected to a 3 inch long 3 inch diameter pipe..Id have to say nothing....Now if your going from a 3 inch directly to a 2 1/4 inch Pipe well.........Different story..SO thats a tad misleading...However I recently got a set of full lenght kooks headers with 3 inch collectors and well...NICEEEEEEE.....Hopefully my moter will agree with me:O)

BlackbirdSC
03-05-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Damon Slowpoke Baumann
I must admit that their shorties do not have the best collector design..Diameter wise..But hell....Its all a compromise..If you dont liek teh shorties you can always go fro some full lenghts:O)..Now tell me this..What would be the difference between lets say a 6 inch collector with a 3inch diameter as compared to a 3 inch collecto with a 3 ich diameter connected to a 3 inch long 3 inch diameter pipe..Id have to say nothing....Now if your going from a 3 inch directly to a 2 1/4 inch Pipe well.........Different story

You could add a piece of pipe right at the collector to kinda serve as an extension, but the joint messes up flow quite a bit. Especially with the type of collector on the Kooks shorties. That disturbs the exhaust pulses (pressure waves) that you're trying to tune for max power. Different length tubes and collectors can tune the exhaust pulse for maximum scavenging. The current shorties miss this concept altogether with practically no collector at all.

And to be honest, I don't think I should have to 'crutch' my exhaust system to 'fix' a defect in a $600-$700 part. But we all have to work with what we can get. Right now Kooks knows they can screw us for whatever they want 'cause they're the only game in town.

XxSlowpokexX
03-05-2003, 08:08 PM
Well most shorties using the ball type collector end basically suck..I was actually refering to a header with a real collector such as many full lenghts out there..The kooks fullenghts I have now xonsist of 6 inch long 3 inch diameter collectors..And they look good as all hell:O)..Now if they perform as good as they look..:O)

MotorCityMike
03-05-2003, 08:37 PM
Anyone wanting headers please call 586-949-3400 and ask for Greg. He will answer any questions or take your orders.

Thanks for all of the emails.

steveblk89SC
04-01-2003, 01:36 AM
hey MotorCityMike,
by direct replace ment do you mean that they will hook up to the stock down tubes or will i need to make a set of custom downtubes thanks
Steve
sdelia69@twcny.rr.com

MotorCityMike
04-01-2003, 12:09 PM
These headers will bolt up to your stock downpipes.

Unfortunately we didn't get enough people for the G/P, which has expired today. Anyone still interested please contact me. For you people that were interested in the G/P I will be emailing you to discuss a resolution.

Thank you for all of your interest.

MotorCityMike
12-22-2003, 03:38 PM
These are still available...