Anyone running SuperSixMotorsport Superheads?

F

FlyinLow

Registered User
I have been looking around to get some head porting done and wanted to know if any of you are running the Superheads from Super Six Motorsports? Their numbers look good, just want some real world results on an SC.
Thanks
 
Supersix actually uses the naturally aspirated 3.8 heads I believe from 1996-1998..Might be 97-98..Awhile back I was doing research when I stumbled across them..Those later model 3.8 heads are suppossed to be just as strong as the earlier model SC castings yet use lighter valvetrain componants..Its been awhile but that's what I remember
 
Check out the article on 3.8/4.2 Internals on the left side of their home page. According to that, the 96-98 3.8L heads are almost the same as the SC heads, the difference over 89-95heads being the coolant passages (8 around each cylinder on the 89-95's 5 on the SC and 96-96) which has something to do with the increased strength.
 
I read the section about the single port superheads and how they compare to split port heads. There was some mention of SC heads in that section, but this company clearly specializes in the naturally aspirated V-6 engines.

The flow numbers they post, especially on the exhaust side are not high enough to compete with Coy Miller and Stegimeir's Super Coupe heads. Keep in mind that a forced induction head also needs stronger valve springs to keep the valves closed against a pressurized intake manifold. The larger the valve diameter the more seat pressure you need.

All the good head builders will offer a cam that is designed to work best with their heads (considers head flow, valve length, valve springs and rocker geometry). I didn't see any mention of cams or head and cam packages for the Super Coupe engine.

The prices may be lower, but I would stick with someone who specializes in SC heads.

BTW, Here is a link to the Stegimier heads.

http://www.apten-us.com/scheads/38heads.html

David
 
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Supersix heads do not flow as well as lets say Steigs heads because they most likely do not add material to the exhaust ports..If you consitute the price difference as being worth it..Then go for it..I'd say 99% of SC owners will do fine with a $500 port job/valve job with new springs..Perhaps you may need new guides...If you want add in a set of better valves..All depends what you want to spend. I went with the Steig heads not because there better per say..But they are better for what I have planned. I've been building motors for about 15 years and truthfully I have never spent as much for headwork as I have with the Steig heads on a V8, let alone a v6. Truthfully I'm still shakking my head at the cost. But to me my my time is worth more then wasting it on experimentation and the price of admission war outweighed me possably being dissapointed in my purchase.

Soo my advice....Look at what you expect out of your 4,000lb car and spend accordingly...Do you plan to go 14,13,12,11's??....And what do you need to get there
 
David Neibert said:
I read the section about the single port superheads and how they compare to split port heads. There was some mention of SC heads in that section, but this company clearly specializes in the naturally aspirated V-6 engines.

The flow numbers they post, especially on the exhaust side are not high enough to compete with Coy Miller and Stegimeir's Super Coupe heads. Keep in mind that a forced induction head also needs stronger valve springs to keep the valves closed against a pressurized intake manifold. The larger the valve diameter the more seat pressure you need.

All the good head builders will offer a cam that is designed to work best with their heads (considers head flow, valve length, valve springs and rocker geometry). I didn't see any mention of cams or head and cam packages for the Super Coupe engine.

The prices may be lower, but I would stick with someone who specializes in SC heads.

BTW, Here is a link to the Stegimier heads.

http://www.apten-us.com/scheads/38heads.html

David
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Doug Fraliegh had a set of heads I done for his 95. I sold him a set of 95 heads I had and the Comp Cams regrind I was using. That I know of, he has had good luck with the setup.

Also, If Tom at Super Six is not using a Diffuser to 'enhance' the exhaust flow like Stieg and Coy do, the numbers are identical on the exhaust. Well... except for the Super Six heads flowing more below .300" lift, 7 less at .400" and 1 cfm more at .500" and .600". And yes... I do have the open exhaust flow numbers for the Steig heads from a reliable source.

I'm not trying to offend or influence anyone, I've never dealt with any of the companys in question. Basically, there's no black art to making a motor run. An SC specialist is just someone that's spent (wasted?) time and money trying stuff that didn't work. An SC motor is no different than any other motor. Yes, it has certain flaws, but when building a high power motor all areas will be inspected and improved no matter what motor it is. It's all the same.

Perfect example, last fall we took our circletrack car to a different track after our season ended. We're limited to 357 CID where they can run 406 CID with the same mods. (Holley carb, Edelbrock intake, small headers, stock everything else and no porting) My partner was driving this track for the first time ever. EVERY lap he was burying people down the straights. They'd catch up about 1 car length around the turns since he was learning the groove, but would pull them 3-4 lengths down the straights. One guy came over and asked us where we got the motor. I said, "I built it". He just looked at me like I was joking. "No way!" he says. "Yup, used to be a engine machinist". To which he replies "Maann.... I spent $7500 on a 406 and you pulled me everytime". Then I told him it was only a 357 not a 406. He stayed for a few seconds looking in the engine bay and walked away shaking his head. We finished 4th in the B main, transferred to the A main and finished 16th. Out of 44 total cars that wasn't bad for a 2nd year driver on the track for the first time.

Basically I'm just trying to say that paying a ton of money or someone being a 'specialist' doesn't mean they're the only ones that can make something work.

Sorry Dave :) :p ;)

Later,
Steve

Edit

Oh.. and if you download the catalog, SSM offers 2 cams for supercharged apps and a 3rd (the biggest) that would work great in a radical SC.
 
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Basically I'm just trying to say that paying a ton of money or someone being a 'specialist' doesn't mean they're the only ones that can make something work.
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Steve,

True is doesn't....but the people I mentioned have a proven track record. How is someone supposed to know who to believe and who is talking BS unless they have proven themselves ?

I'm certianly not saying you need to own a big race engine business, to prove yourself. Just make enough mistakes so that you know what works and what doesn't and then back it up with some dyno numbers or timeslips.

I think guys like Fred, Chris Wise, David Dalke and a few others fall into that category.

David
 
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Also, If Tom at Super Six is not using a Diffuser to 'enhance' the exhaust flow like Stieg and Coy do, the numbers are identical on the exhaust. Well... except for the Super Six heads flowing more below .300" lift, 7 less at .400" and 1 cfm more at .500" and .600". And yes... I do have the open exhaust flow numbers for the Steig heads from a reliable source.
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heads without exhaust seats won't flow that much non-diffused. Coy miller heads don't even flow that much non-diffused, and they have a welded exhaust seat with a wild angle cut on the exhaust valve. We tested enough heads to find out that you are only going to flow a certain number on the exhaust side without rewelding. I don't buy those flow numbers at 28" h20 on a 3.8" bore, not on a 1.55" exhaust valve, no way.

An SC specialist is just someone that's spent (wasted?) time and money trying stuff that didn't work. An SC motor is no different than any other motor. Yes, it has certain flaws, but when building a high power motor all areas will be inspected and improved no matter what motor it is. It's all the same.
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wasted time and money on somthing that didn't work, or rather invested in a design that outperformed what is currently available. I'd like to disagree that headporting is all common knowledge, and techinques are all the same. Look at Dave Neibert's car, and his dyno results. Chris wise did the porting, but the exhaust ports were welded up like stiegemeiers. If this was all common easy stuff, why was stiegemeier the first to do it... 13 years after the release of the SC.

As far as cost, yea Stiegemeier and CMRE's aren't cheap. But first figure that there's about $1000 worth of hardware in each brand. High end valves, guides, springs, titanium retainers, and seals aren't cheap. So if you already have that much in, figure Coy Miller has to weld in an a new exhaust seat on every cylinder, that's time consuming. Stiegemeier has to weld up the roof and a few other places on each exhaust port. So figure that could cost atleast $500 from each place. Now you are left with porting, installing new stem seals, valve work, and flow testing, which covers the other $700 or so. Maybe you could get that $700 work done somewnere else for $400 - $500, but Coy and Stiegemeier have to charge a little more to help cover R&D and recoup the investment on the initial project. It's not like anyone is going to sell 1000 Super coupe heads.

bottom line is you get what you pay for. If you are trying to build a budget car and have the time to redo things, then do it yourself or go local. I'm sure there are a lot of shops that would you would be confident dropping heads off to have the exhaust ports welded and reshaped :)

But if you want to be the fastest, and to do things only once, you'll pay more for somthing that is proven and tested for any specific application (like SC's). I've seen enough guys with backyard head porting switch to stiegemeier's to prove that point.

Brian
 
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Not everyone can drop $10,000 into an engine. If I could afford to get the $2,200 heads and drop $4k in to a shortblock I would but in reality I own a 14 year old car that is worth maybe $4,000. I love it and I plan to keep it but what if some dumbass cuts me off and I run into him, there goes my $10,000 engine and I might get some cash from my insurance company. All I want is a reliable SC that will run 13's someday with out constant repair. Now if performance parts for these cars were some what affordable I think alot more people would have faster cars and would repair them not junk them.
Sorry I just hate being broke, I work part time at a casino and go to school. After rent and school all I have is $200 a month. I have saved $2300 and I want to do something to my car to make it more enjoyable to me.

Heads are just going to have to wait.
 
I like this debate

Ya know I have wanted to upgrade my heads for so long now, but always find myself buying boltons...Anyway, being in the middle of a rebuild on my 94SC I have called around, surfed around, and read all sorts of threads...If you want the heads that flow you gotta pay up...Coy & Steig Heads are @ the top, and you have a few others that are close to them maybe...I would have to say that Brian Summed it up, the hardware alone is pretty spendy, then the know how, the shop to do it, the personel and all other overhead that comes with a business...You run a business to make money and sell the best product that sells itself...Everyone wants best, everyone wants to be the best, yet very few want to pay for it...So these are the ones "Not Unlike Myself" that will have to settle for less than the best...;)

BTW, you think Steig & Coy heads are spendy??? Call up Bob Johnson if ya feel like hyperventalating...I was absolutley amazed @ the prices I was hearing...But I would also say that the guy thinks he has the best product of them all, and maybe he does...Not trashin on the guy or his work, but his prices are pretty far out for not having any flow numbers...Maybe Jim Demmit will let us know what his heads flow...The stage I heads start at 2300bux...Yes that is for a set of STAGE 1 heads...I am pretty sure that is for 2 heads...;) ...BTW there are THREE stages, so use your imagination I guess...:D

Cheers

Brad
 
Not everyone can drop $10,000 into an engine. If I could afford to get the $2,200 heads and drop $4k in to a shortblock I would but in reality I own a 14 year old car that is worth maybe $4,000. I love it and I plan to keep it but what if some dumbass cuts me off and I run into him, there goes my $10,000 engine and I might get some cash from my insurance company. All I want is a reliable SC that will run 13's someday with out constant repair. Now if performance parts for these cars were some what affordable I think alot more people would have faster cars and would repair them not junk them.
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This is the real truth. That is the reason I drive around a nearly stock SC. Any modifications at all give you a 0% return on your investment. Since I'm still pretty young, I have decided to restrain from spending too much on any one car. I have had over 5 tbirds now, and I know I won't keep any one car for more than a year or two. If I decide to keep one car someday, that attitude will probably change. Plus at a younger age, there are many expenses coming up (larger house, wedding, etc.)

You can run 13's with bolt-ons if you try really hard. But if you want to run 12's and be in the top 10, you are going to spend at least $6000 any way you look at it. Most of the people I talk to that want to run 12's want to be competitive and break records. I know several SC's in that bracket that have spent well over $15,000 in modifications. Sure a lot of that cost is from re-doing things right the second or third time, but it's still extremly expensive. If you want to play, you have to pay :)

Brian
 
exhaust port welding

Can anyone tell me exactly what gets welded up on the exhaust port that makes them flow better. Where are they adding material, how much and why? How does it help?
 
welding

So from the pictures it looks like they raise the floor of the port. Is that to try to create a more consistant cross sectional area? Do they weld the back wall before it turns and blends into the celing of the port?
 
BlackbirdSC said:
Doug Fraliegh had a set of heads I done for his 95. I sold him a set of 95 heads I had and the Comp Cams regrind I was using. That I know of, he has had good luck with the setup.
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Well.....

Tom did "over port" my original heads, broke through to the cooling passages, which is why I needed Steve's heads.

But, the heads I got sure looked good when I finally got them. Unfortunately, about the time I got the car sorted out, the bottom end let go, so I don't have any numbers.
 
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